Tripet Surface Grinder

[Anorak Bob]

I was showing some photographs of a beautiful little surface grinder, owned by a young Swiss toolmaker by the name of William Brem, to Alan "C-47" yesterday and thought that others may be interested.

William started a Yahoo group devoted to Swiss machine tools, and had originally raised a query on PM about his newly acquired grinder -

.Alb Tripet Bienne Suisse little old surface grinder - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/alb-tripet-bienne-suisse-little-old-surface-grinder-203281/)

BT

[RayG]

Hi Bob,

Nice machine, a couple of questions.. I take it that flat belt is "slipped" for table cross feed? (Edit:... Ok, I got it it's hydraulic X and Y)

Is the spindle motor inside the column? Edit: No the belt drives the spindle.. must be a complex drive mechanism...

No coolant? Edit No coolant

How does the downfeed work?

Regards
Ray

[bob colles]

That is a lovely grinder. Looks too good to use! Does this crew make magnetic chucks? -You don't see them around that much anymore.

[Stustoys]

To add to Rays questions, What are the handles that look like they are for locking the spindle for?
Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Unfortunately boys, William Brem isn't my next door neighbour. You blokes know more about surface grinders than I do. I've never had the opportunity to use one. I posted the photos simply because the machine is a little gem and I wanted to share it with the rest of you.

BT

[RayG]

To add to Rays questions, What are the handles that look like they are for locking the spindle for?
Stuart

Thanks Bob, It's a little gem of a surface grinder, I think you definately need this machine! :)

Hi Stuart,

I'm guessing that's exactly what they are, locking the spindle to change wheels. I like the look of the top mounted wheel dresser.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/169759d1305343321-tripet-surface-grinder-hpim2597-large-.jpg

Do you think that lever on the top is for moving the dresser across the wheel?

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Do you think that lever on the top is for moving the dresser across the wheel?

Yeap, I was going to pm you about that, you saved me the trouble. You'll see its been moved between the pictures.
You think there is any chance of stiffening up the one on your grinder?(I'd have to say it was the crappiest looking piece of kit in the place, but given the quality of what its attached to and his other machines I'll let him off) As far as fixing it goes it would have to be parallel to the table.

I'd been thinking those handles locked the spindle by tightening the bearing up. They might work the same way as the quill lock on a mill?

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Funny you should be thinking that, I was wondering the same thing.

Getting it parallel to the table is the trick, and that's the big advantage of a table mounted dresser, that it's automatically parallel.

Regards
Ray

[pipeclay]

Why dose it matter about having the diamond parallel to the table?

[Stustoys]

Why dose it matter about having the diamond parallel to the table?

Because if it isn't then the grinding wheel wont be parallel to the table and you will be cutting with one edge of the wheel(same as a mill being out of tram)
Stuart

[pipeclay]

Where and what are you using to dress the wheel?

[Stustoys]

PC,
I'm not using anything, I don't have a surface grinder.
If you look on top of the wheel guard in this picture you'll see what we are talking about.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/169756d1305343321-tripet-surface-grinder-hpim2588-large-.jpg
We believe its a wheel dresser, Ray has something similar on his machine but I was told it doesn't work very well.

Stuart

[bob colles]

Actually it looks like you can offset the grinding head - nice.

[pipeclay]

So all this reference to parallel and traming is in relation to a dressing device attached to the wheel guard,not a dresser attached to a Magnetic chuck or held in a vice.

[RayG]

So all this reference to parallel and traming is in relation to a dressing device attached to the wheel guard,not a dresser attached to a Magnetic chuck or held in a vice.

I think you're catching on ... the question (Stuart and I were discussing) is how to make sure that the top dresser is parallel to the chuck...

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/SG/HPIM2597.jpg

Regards
Ray

[pipeclay]

After looking at the one pictured what would you be looking for,it appears to run on a dovetail type slide.
It appears also to be mounted in line with the spindle,I can make out from the picture if there is any offset to the diamond to allow for equalling out the wear.

[Anorak Bob]

I'm glad the little grinder has generated some interest. Makes posting this stuff worthwhile.:2tsup:

[Stustoys]

Actually it looks like you can offset the grinding head - nice.
Bob,
Sorry I don't get what you mean.

Stuart

[Pete F]

Because if it isn't then the grinding wheel wont be parallel to the table and you will be cutting with one edge of the wheel(same as a mill being out of tram)
Stuart

If the wheel is dressed off parallel to the table it doesn't affect accuracy, it's just that the grind will be difficult. If the leading edge is higher than the trailing edge that's actually how they wear anyway. However if it's really bad then the wheel will behave as if it's narrower. The width of cut is a fraction of the wheel width and the leading edge always does the actual stock removal, then the rest of the wheel cleans it up as it traverses across by just lightly skimming the work. However if the leading edge is lower than the trailing edge then the grind will likely be crappy until the leading edge wears down to be parallel with the trailing edge, since in that case there's nothing clean up the cut made by the leading edge.

I can't imagine it being a huge big deal if the wheel isn't dressed perfectly parallel to the table, just as long as it's perfectly round. Lots of grinders have a wheel dresser mounted on the guard with nothing to assure it's parallel to the table.

Pete

[pipeclay]

Can someone explain what has/should/canbe parallel go to do with dressing a wheel.
All the wheels that I have dressed have been dressed with a Diamond dresser mounted in a steel block offset about 10 degrees.
The block is placed in the middle or abouts of the Magnetic Chuck as close to Vertically inline with the Spindle.
Magnetic Base locked,wheel started,coolant off,whell brought down till just touching Diamond,table traversed out wheel lowered .001",table traversed manually front to back dropping wheel .001" at a time untill wheel is clean and then traversed front to back a couple of times to make sure the Dressers not touching.

[Pete F]

Can someone explain what has/should/canbe parallel go to do with dressing a wheel.

What is your question Peter? Once more in English please.

The procedure you went on to describe was roughly right. In fact the dresser goes at an angle so the diamond isn't blunted. By putting it an an angle it wears a bit like sharpening a crayon, in that it's also periodically rotated.

Also the diamond is positioned behind the centreline of the wheel just to avoid any possibility of it being in front, catching and being speared up into the wheel. On the final pass the procedure is to traverse once across the wheel then once back, that's it. Continuing to go across and back, as tempting as it is, is not advisable as it tends to glaze the wheel. However as you said, you may need to lower the wheel a few times to get the face clean or take out a profile. I've never done any profile grinding myself, but inherited some wheels that had been used for it and it creates a heck of a mess getting them back to parallel (my grinder doesn't have coolant).

Pete

[pipeclay]

I dont understand the refference to parallel.

[Stustoys]

Pete,
You could hold the diamond by hand and it would still work.
If you've got 0.0001" left to come off and want a good finish, I wouldn't try it though.

PC when your diamond is on the table what you say is fine. If the diamond isn't on the table then you have other problems. Ray and I are not talking about using a diamond on the table.

Stuart

[Stustoys]

PC,
If the path the diamond travels isn't parallel with the table the wheel will be a cone of some form or other. If the diamond is on the table that would be hard to do, but thats not what we are talking about.
Stuart

[Pete F]

I dont understand the refference to parallel.

If the wheel dressing diamond is mounted on the table, as the wheel is passed across it, it will be turned both round and parallel to the table. Imagine you're looking at a lathe from the tailstock end and the diamond is your cutting tool riding on the lathe's ways.

Stuart no you can't hold the diamond by hand ... ask me how I know :U I thought I'd try it to see if it would work when I first got my machine. I had some wheels that were a mess so was just fooling around. It didn't take too long to realise :p

Pete

[Stustoys]

Pete,
Ok correction, maybe you can't hold the diamond by hand. I and others I know can.(This should not be taken as a recommendation that is it a good idea)
Stuart

[RayG]

If the wheel is dressed off parallel to the table it doesn't affect accuracy...
<snip>
Pete

I guess that depends on the cross feed rate, if the top based dresser wasn't running parallel to the table, you would end up with one side of the wheel higher than the other and you would get grooves across the work spaced depending on the cross feed rate.

At some really slow cross feed rate, it wouldn't matter.

Anyway, that wasn't the question, the question actually was, how would you go about making the top based dresser parallel to the chuck? I think the real answer is you can't (at least not easily) and using a dresser mounted direct to the chuck is probably the only foolproof way to do it.

Regards
Ray

[Pete F]

Pete,
Ok correction, maybe you can't hold the diamond by hand. I and others I know can.(This should not be taken as a recommendation that is it a good idea)
Stuart

I'm sure you can Stuart ... if you want to then go on and sharpen some lawnmower blades :rolleyes: There is absolutely no way in hell that a wheel dresser can be held to a surface grinding wheel by hand and produce a wheel that is anything like round, let alone remotely parallel to the table. Or was this actually some sort of joke that I missed :?

[Stustoys]

Pete,
Where did I say it would be round or parallel to the table?(infact that was part of my point). That may or may not be an issue on a surface grinder, depending on what you are doing to the wheel, where and why you do it

Ray,
I think there is an answer, as long as you have a firm mounting point. I need to think about it a little more

[Pete F]

I guess that depends on the cross feed rate, if the top based dresser wasn't running parallel to the table, you would end up with one side of the wheel higher than the other and you would get grooves across the work spaced depending on the cross feed rate.


Ah yes, you're quite right Ray.

[Pete F]

Pete,
Where did I say it would be round or parallel to the table?(infact that was part of my point). That may or may not be an issue on a surface grinder, depending on what you are doing to the wheek and where you do it

Wait a minute. Well why are you surface grinding something then Stuart :doh: If the wheel isn't round it will leave a poor surface, if it's not parallel it will most likely leave streaks down the work as Ray pointed out. Why do you think profile dressers are so expensive if you could just wander up to a surface grinder, jam a diamond into the wheel and expect it's going to work satisfactorily! In what circumstances have you (or "others you know") held a wheel dresser to a surface grinder wheel by hand and dressed the wheel to then go on and get a good finish?

[Stustoys]

If the wheel is dressed off parallel to the table it doesn't affect accuracy,
Pete,
I wasn't the one arguing that it wouldnt matter.
Stuart

[Pete F]

Stuart if you read back, Ray pointed out that it would in fact leave streaks across the work unless the feed is very small. That is quite right, I was wrong and said as much. The wheel wears into a cone shape anyway and that's what I was thinking, however the trailing edge of the wheel is normally still quite flat when the wheel is dressed, so it's cleaning up the work. If it was actually dressed incorrectly that wouldn't be the case. It would need to be a long way out, however in theory what Ray is saying is quite right.

You went on to say that I may not be able to hand hold a dresser but you "and others I know" can. Firstly you insult me, completely out of the blue, and then you dance around alluding any form of reasonable answer when I ask when you've actually done that? You said you don't even HAVE a surface grinder. No kidding. I do have a surface grinder and I've actually done it. It doesn't work. You want to believe it does, go nuts. Contrary to your assertions I wasn't "arguing" about anything, I made an initial statement that was in hindsight incorrect. Well, maybe I should in fact correct myself a second time Stuart, if your definition of "surface grinding" is a finish that looks like crap and is about as flat as the Pacific Ocean in a Force 10, then yeah, I guess a grinder wheel can be dressed by hand :rolleyes:

[Stustoys]

Pete,
Maybe you should read back
I said it needed to be parallel,
You said it didn't,
I said "You could hold the diamond by hand and it would still work. If you've got 0.0001" left to come off and want a good finish, I wouldn't try it though."
You told me that I couldn't hold the diamond by hand(that would be the first insult if that's what you want to call it), then went on to explain that you couldn't hold the diamond by hand.
I corrected myself
You then insulted me again with your lawnmower blades comment(which by the way I have indeed sharpened on a surface grinder)
I then explained that I never said that the wheel would be round or parallel and in fact that was my point. After all it was you that said it didn't matter if it wasn't parallel.
You then realised you had be wrong.
You then made a smart assed remark about "you could just wander up to a surface grinder, jam a diamond into the wheel and expect it's going to work satisfactorily"

What I said wasn't an insult. You said you couldn't do it so I agreed, how is that an insult? The fact that you cant do something does not mean that it cant be done.
Now you want to get in a pissing competition about who's done the most surface grinding.

BTW the wheel won't wear into a cone in normal operation, but I don't need to go into that as you would already know.
Bedtime
Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

My memory might be amiss here, but, didn't you at one time use a surface grinder at work some time in the past?

Regards
Ray

[Pete F]

I'm not interested in pissing contests Stuart, I have a grinder, when I bought it I asked a heap of really dumb questions on various BBs, stripped it, rebuilt it then taught myself how to use it, big deal. I try to pass on my experience to help others, sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. I find I use my grinder a lot, but if you're the resident expert on surface grinding then let's have it. I have asked numerous times when you have dressed a surface grinder wheel by hand and got a good finish. This is what you said about it " ... and want a good finish". You then went on to say that the wheel would be neither parallel nor round. So then how do you get a good finish from a wheel that is not round?


BTW the wheel won't wear into a cone in normal operation, but I don't need to go into that as you would already know.

Maybe if you could stow the smart-#### attitude for a moment Stuart and keep with the true spirit of what the board is about, you could also explain this? When I dress a wheel it is most definitely worn on the leading edge, if it's badly worn the wear may go as far as half way across the wheel. If it needs a lot of dressing the worn area gradually moves back across the wheel with each pass until eventually the wheel is clean and flat. I'd call that worn area a conical shape. Personally I find with most of the material I grind the wheel glazes before it's worn any more than about 1/3 across and so I redress it. But that's the shape I see. Now you're saying that it doesn't wear into that shape, so what is the shape of the wear then?

Pete

[pipeclay]

Just curious again Pete as to the talk of wheel shapes and wear,when you are grinding what depth of cut are you taking for your (roughing passes) and then for your finish passes?
How long and wide are the jobs you are generally grinding?
What sort of cross feed rate are you taking for your (roughing passes) and then finish passes?
What as a guess would be your longitudinal stroke per minute rate on the material you grind?
Your not running water on this machine at the moment are you?

[Pete F]

Just curious again Pete as to the talk of wheel shapes and wear,when you are grinding what depth of cut are you taking for your (roughing passes) and then for your finish passes?
How long and wide are the jobs you are generally grinding?
What sort of cross feed rate are you taking for your (roughing passes) and then finish passes?
What as a guess would be your longitudinal stroke per minute rate on the material you grind?
Your not running water on this machine at the moment are you?

G'day Peter, that all depends on what I'm grinding and how important the finish is. I'm not trying to allude the question, it's just that the answer truly is "it depends". However I normally use a similar feed rate irrespective of whether it's a finish pass or not. The main difference is obviously the DOC, as you suggested, and I also typically slow the longitudinal rate right down so the work is passing relatively slowly under the wheel on the final passes.

The whole thing can get quite complex as the criteria you requested can vary so much. To give you an example, I was regrinding some parallels a while back for a specific job. I made them up just from some mild steel, a no-brainer as far as grinding one would think and I didn't expect it to take long at all. However I had a lot of trouble getting a really good result as they were relatively narrow with holes in the work, so even with very careful grinding the steel expanded differently depending on how close it was to the holes. The result was it would be "flat" when ground, but when it cooled it would no longer be flat. I'm sure it would have been "good enough" for some, but I don't work like that. So the answer was to VERY lightly grind to try not to heat the work and even then wait for the work to cool completely before taking another skim. The precise same material just wider parallels would have been a completely different scenario.

My grinder is manual with no coolant. It's the one machine I really do wish had coolant, but given the negatives involved doubt I'll add it. The bottom line is I just bumble along and if it's "expertise" you're after then I'd suggest you direct your questions to the self-proclaimed resident expert here. All I know is that, above all else, the wheel absolutely MUST be round and free from vibration, once you have that condition then I'm afraid from then on it "all depends".

Hope that's of some benefit, even if there aren't too many answers in there :wink:

Pete

Edit: As far as wheel "shape", if it's of any interest, personally I find the wheel starts to glaze and the finish deteriorate when the wear is about 1/3 across. I call that wear a conical shape, but apparently it's not. But after that wear area the wheel is still flat, so as long as the passes aren't wider than that it cleans up the work anyway.

[Stustoys]

PC,
On HSS steel with coolant I've been led to believe 0.0015" with something around 0.025" crossfeed is a roughing cut(this of course would depend on the power of the machine). But of course I wouldn't know.

Pete,

I'm not interested in pissing contests Stuart,
Then why are you telling me about your expertise in the field and then telling me as I don't own a surface grinder I couldn't possibly know anything


You said you don't even HAVE a surface grinder. No kidding.

You then tell me that something I have done can't be done simply because you can't do it.


I do have a surface grinder and I've actually done it. It doesn't work.

I cant parallel park to save myself so I guess no one can.


I have asked numerous times when you have dressed a surface grinder wheel by hand and got a good finish. This is what you said about it " ... and want a good finish". You then went on to say that the wheel would be neither parallel nor round. So then how do you get a good finish from a wheel that is not round?

Do try and keep things in order Pete, this "You could hold the diamond by hand and it would still work. If you've got 0.0001" left to come off and want a good finish, I wouldn't try it though." was said before you asked me anything. I'm still not sure you are getting the point I was making away.

I may or may not be able to dazzle you and other forum members with my experience on surface grinders. That is not the point. I also think that "I've been doing it this way for XX years" is a crappy argument. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't make them right. But telling someone that has being doing something that they are wrong and that it can't be done generally wont go down well.

I think I have spent more than enough time on this. Are we having fun yet?

Stuart

p.s. You only crossfeed in one direction?

[Dave J]

I'm not interested in pissing contests Stuart, I have a grinder, when I bought it I asked a heap of really dumb questions on various BBs, stripped it, rebuilt it then taught myself how to use it, big deal.

Maybe if you could stow the smart-#### attitude for a moment Stuart and keep with the true spirit of what the board is about,
Pete


Where have I heard this before? Now it's Stuarts turn is it?
You get on here starting arguments and name calling, then preaching that the you need to get back on topic as the forum is not for this????

You also say you rebuilt your grinder, but you didn't mention you scraped it, you never repainted it, so you only cleaned it up and added a VFD, That is not a rebuild it is a clean up.

On the 17 march 2011 you posted "Today I pretty much finished rebuilding my Hercus Surface grinder"
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f189/hercus-surface-grinder-132809/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f189/hercus-surface-grinder-132809/)
That is just under 2 months ago, and because you asked some questions on a few forums and had a bit of a go, that now makes you experienced? Experience comes from time spent on a machine, reading about it is research.
You don't even have a mag chuck to use on it and going by the picture you posted of the Aldi vice, it would not be rigid enough for grinding.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f189/hercus-surface-grinder-132809/#post1292542

If you bothered to ask you would have learnt a bit from Stuart, as he used to operate one for a job, this does not make him an expert but he knows a fair bit about grinding.

From the PM's I got after your last out burst (and I would say Stuart is getting the same now) A lot of members here are getting sick of you antics with your name calling and argumentative ways.
In case you didn't notice we all get along here and have done so for years, sometimes we agree to disagree, but we don't start name calling because someone has a different point of view. That type of thing is left in the school yard.

Dave

PS
This is all I have to say on the matter as we need to get back on track with the subject at hand.

[RayG]

Hi PeteF,
I haven't seen too many people posting here who don't have a huge background of knowledge and experience and what's more a willingness to freely offer helpful advice. Treat all others with respect and they will treat you likewise in return.

Hi Stuart,
Getting back on topic..

I see in the manual for the MPS-350AHD that the wheel mounted dresser is a factory fitted option, they call it "Parallell Dressing Attachment"

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/SG/SGDressing1.jpg

So, the crappy looking wheel mounted dresser is actually a standard factory option, not shop made as I originally thought. The pictures of the machine in the manual and brochures don't show it, and rummaging in the tool box with the machine spares, I found a little cover plate, marked "wheel dresser cover plate" ...:rolleyes:

I picked up a couple of other tips in the manual, it says to store wheels vertically, never run coolant with the wheel stopped (the moisture absorbed will unbalance the wheel).

So the conclusion is the top mounted dresser is a rough dressing, but for precision the chuck mounted dresser is the only option.

I can't see that the Tripet wheel mounted dresser (which is what started this discussion) would be much different.

Regards
Ray

[Pete F]

David oh the irony of your post. Did you mean to have something constructive to say? Or are you still peeved that the moderator deleted EVERY post you had to say in your little outburst where you, completely unprovoked, started a bizarre rant about cyclists based on you not knowing the road rules and openly admitting to, even seemingly proud of, being too lazy to look them up? When did I PM you, I have just gone through all my PMs and I can promise you your name is NOT in the list :(( Nor have I engaged in any "name calling" as you claim, if you cast your mind back that was actually YOU towards cyclists, but that's a minor technicality.

I couldn't care less if Stuart invented surface grinders, I asked 3 times how it is possible for a wheel that is, by his own admission, neither parallel nor round, to provide a "good finish" on work as was claimed. I'd say that was "bothering to ask", but of course you're free to take your own interpretation on this.

I have NEVER ... EVER claimed to be an expert in surface grinding ... or anything for that matter. Please cut and paste where I said that. Very much quite the opposite. I have asked Stuart 3 times how it's possible to have a wheel in that condition produce a "good finish". Answer? Nothing. Having been told that the wheel doesn't wear in a conical shape I asked what is the shape then? Answer. Nothing. I know you have nothing better to do in your day, but I do, so on that note I'll leave you to it.

Pete

PS Yes you're quite right david, the vice I use to hold my lathe bits doesn't work. It's funny how they miraculously pop out sharp at the end of it though.

You're also quite right, I didn't rebuild my grinder, how could i think such a thing. The photo below is a cardboard cutout

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx21/886014/Surface%20Grinder/file-2.jpg

"I haven't seen too many people posting here who don't have a huge background of knowledge and experience and what's more a willingness to freely offer helpful advice. Treat all others with respect and they will treat you likewise in return."

Once again you're quite right Ray, however as we see, sometimes some just want to drag others down any way they can. I have never and will never claim to be an expert in anything. I try to pass on my limited experience as I come across it, as I said, sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong, but I would expect a bit more courtesy than what amounts to a "pfft, you can't do it but I and others can". Gee I wonder why a comment like that might get someone's back up! Some may not like my communication style and that's fine, but unlike some here who try to drag people down or work on their post count with moronic, pointless posts and bizarre outbursts about groups of citizens, the vast majority of my posts are trying to help others. I'm sure the BB has an ignore function if some find my attempts so upsetting!

[pipeclay]

In regards to the Top mounted dresser,the one pictured appears to be very well made and quite substancial,is the other one you refer to held in a similar arrangement to the one pictured?

[Bryan]

... how to make sure that the top dresser is parallel to the chuck...

Regards
Ray

Could you mount an indicator on the table and clock the dresser dovetail?

Edit: I mean by using the Y travel. With the dresser removed.

Edit: Sorry I thought the Q related to the Tripet. Please disregard.

[Stustoys]

Ray,
I thought he said it was shop madel.

PC,
(from memory) I believe its not so much the dresser(although it doesn't look as good as the one at the start of the thread), its that it is mounted to a wheel guard made from sheetmetal rather than case.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/SG/DSCN0344.JPG


Pete,
You insult me then demand answers, doesn't work like that. But you've caught me out I know nothing about what I have been talking about, please disregard any and all comments I have made.

Stuart

[pipeclay]

What moves the Diamond back and forth,Is it on a cam or rack or is it just moved by hand across the wheel.

[Dave J]

Hi Ray,
In browsing around looking at surface grinders last week I saw one the same as yours and the factory had added on a dresser on the end of the table that was adjustable up and down by a small hand wheel. I have tried to find it, but you know the way it goes, when your looking you cant find it.

Dave

PS
Pete I never said you PMed me, it was other people PMing me about your out bursts of name calling etc.

[Pete F]

Grow up Stuart. I have never "demanded" anything from you. I said straight up that a surface grinder wheel cannot be dressed properly by holding a single point dresser to it by hand, I thought you were actually joking when you said it. You then insulted me, if you didn't mean it as an insult that's fine, but I took it as much, unremarkably I'd say. That's the problem with written communication, someone may mean something one way and another party may take it quite differently, however if you can't move past smart-##### comments like your last few, please don't address any more to me.

I'm clearly happy to put the whole matter behind us and move on, and I'm all ears if you would like to tell us how you're able to get a good finish after holding a single point dresser to the wheel. However if you would prefer to continue acting like a child, that is of course entirely your business.

Pete

[RayG]

Ray,
I thought he said it was shop madel.


That was my recollection as well, and (to my eye) it looks shop-made, so I'm starting to think that although the top dresser was offerered as an option for this model but it wasn't fitted to the machine, so they made their own and re-used the same mounting.

Maybe one designed along the lines of the Tripet with more rigid mounting would work better.

Hi Bryan,
You are correct, If I could figure out a way to get a DT indicator onto the dovetail, that would work.

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

Hi Ray,
In browsing around looking at surface grinders last week I saw one the same as yours and the factory had added on a dresser on the end of the table that was adjustable up and down by a small hand wheel. I have tried to find it, but you know the way it goes, when your looking you cant find it.

Dave



Thanks Dave, I would be definitely interested to see what they have done.

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

What moves the Diamond back and forth,Is it on a cam or rack or is it just moved by hand across the wheel.

Hi PC,

I think the Tripet, shown at the start of this thread is moved back and forth with the handle on the side. (Not 100% sure about that, just what it looks like) As far as the other one goes, it looks like you just push it by hand. I'll be able to try it when I get the power on to it next week.

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Again with the name calling Pete.


, but I would expect a bit more courtesy than what amounts to a "pfft, you can't do it but I and others can".

Lol I missed that one. Little funny coming from the guy that said



Stuart no you can't hold the diamond by hand ... ask me how I know :U I thought I'd try it to see if it would work when I first got my machine. I had some wheels that were a mess so was just fooling around. It didn't take too long to realise :p


Thats sure sounds to me like "pfft, I can't do it so no one else can" to me.


please don't address any more to me.

Thanks for that, I'll certainly take that on board.
Stuart

[Dave J]

Thanks Dave, I would be definitely interested to see what they have done.

Regards
Ray


Ray,
I will try to chase it up for you latter.

Dave

[Pete F]

Ok have it your way Stuart. Instead of all this why don't you simply admit you were wrong/mistaken?

You asked me a question about crossfeed I just realised I didn't answer. Do I crossfeed in the one direction only? Yes I'd say in about 95% or more of the time I would feed in the one direction, from the back toward the front. I bought my grinder just before Christmas and it didn't have a magnetic chuck. It's proving challenging to source one at anything like a realistic price too. That makes setting work up on it sometimes quite tricky as I have to either clamp it to the table, and as you know it only has the one T-slot. Alternatively use various vices, one of which I must remember next time I use it apparently doesn't work ... well according to one member here anyway, and I'm sure he would know :rolleyes:. However as they say, where there's a will there's a way, and I've been able to grind everything that I've wanted to grind so far by being imaginative in how I hold things, indeed doubly so as they need to be held without distorting them. Things really start getting interesting when I need to grind angles! However I'm getting increasingly desperate for a mag chuck as it really is a PIA like it is, and as mentioned I use the machine quite often.

Ray as a matter of interest, how long do you think it will be before you get your grinder operational? Did I read correctly you're going to need to put a bunch of VFDs in it? Even with cheap VFDs that sounds expensive. When I "cleaned up" mine, which I must stress is NOT a rebuild, and merely stripped every component off it down to bare castings , gutted the wiring, stripped the motor, repaired the belt cover, repaired the feed handle, repaired the arbour, repaired the spindle, reassembled (note the non-use of "rebuilt") and rewired, I installed a VFD. At the time I was uncertain if a VFD on a grinder was worthwhile, but in hindsight I'm pleased I went down this path on this machine also. I obviously don't vary the wheel speed, but the soft-start/stop is an extremely nice feature as I have it programmed relatively slowly so there's no chance whatsoever of the wheel spinning on the arbour. However I was wondering if it's necessary to have VFDs on all the motors I think you mentioned, or if it wouldn't be cheaper/easier on things like coolant pumps to simply change the pump to a single phase alternative?

Pete

[pipeclay]

Is there any particular reason as to why you feed in one direction only most of the time.

[Pete F]

As I said Peter, it's often the way I'm needing to set up the work. Also I prefer to be able to easily see what's going on at the cutting edge without the rest of the wheel obstructing what I can see. If I feed the other way I need to stand around further to see properly and I don't like doing that. Finally, what I find is that if the wheel is getting close to needing to be re-dressed the finish may not be particularly good at the initial part of the cut. However as the wheel is ever so slightly smaller in this worn area (but not a conical shape ... apparently), as the relatively fresh trailing part of the wheel comes across it cleans it up. Unfortunately I'm not blessed with the ability to hold a diamond to a wheel by hand and have it properly dressed, so dressing a wheel for me always means removing the work, fixing in the diamond dresser and dressing it. With some setups the likelihood of getting it precisely back in the same location is nearly impossible. So I will always try to get the work done without needing to re-dress the wheel. I'd love to know a better way, but some would prefer to act like children rather than trying to help others, so I guess I'll battle on in my ignorance.

Pete

[Bryan]

I'd love to know a better way, but some would prefer to act like children rather than trying to help others, so I guess I'll battle on in my ignorance.

Pete

FFS let it go! :~

[Stustoys]

Pete,

Instead of all this why don't you simply admit you were wrong/mistaken?
Not a good start but hey its a new day.


You asked me a question about crossfeed I just realised I didn't answer. Do I crossfeed in the one direction only? Yes I'd say in about 95% or more of the time I would feed in the one direction, from the back toward the front.

OK, things are going nicely now. I'll write him an nice answer.


one of which I must remember next time I use it apparently doesn't work ... well according to one member here anyway, and I'm sure he would know

Things start to go down hill about here as this is exactly what he told me.


but some would prefer to act like children rather than trying to help others, so I guess I'll battle on in my ignorance.

I lose the will to type about here.

But I'll try once more.

Indeed pete crossfeeding in one direction will give you a cone(or something like it). Crossfeed in one direction is not normal operation. Except maybe for you(hey I can take cheap shots as well)
You seem to think that everything on a surface grinder is always about being able to see your face in the finish. It isn't. Its about getting a finish that's acceptable. Of course what is acceptable on mow blades would not be acceptable on a dia face. (In fact its more often about getting a surface which is flat, surface finish comes after that. Flatness is about deflection, vices aren't much good for that, just like holding a diamond dresser by hand isn't much good for dressing wheels to take a 0.0001" cut. But I never said they were.)

The point of my post 23 which you appear to not get is "if you want to take a 0.0001" cut, the wheel had better be spot on. NOT "dressed off parallel to the table it doesn't affect accuracy". You'll notice you next post didn't have any questions or statements such as "gee I find it hard to do that" in it, just the statement "Stuart no you can't hold the diamond by hand." You then started yacking on about finish finish being perfect, I never said any such thing that I am aware. If I did we could then argue about what a perfect finish is, flat so parts bolt together nice? or see your face pretty but wavy?

Stuart

[Dave J]

Or are you still peeved that the moderator deleted EVERY post you had to say in your little outburst,

LOL
I hate to P*** on your picnic, but it was me that asked Neil to DELETE all the posts because of your pointless bizarre out bursts.

Dave

[Pete F]

Stuart it seems you'd like to share information. I have said several times that I was wrong about the wheel needing to be parallel. What more do you want? As others have pointed out, continuing like this is pointless and nobody else here wants to read it, as far as I'm concerned the matter is over. Again. I will however have my olive branches spat on only so many times! So, would you like to try that post again? My question was, how do you manage to get a "good finish", as you suggested, from a wheel you've dressed by hand?

David, if you'd like to recall correctly it was actually you who completely out of the blue burst into a discussion amongst cyclists ridiculing "their" behaviour, which included a series of derogatory remarks about (quite bizzarely) what cyclists wear! As it turned out it was actually YOU who was ignorant of the road rules and at fault. I don't find it at all remarkable that you therefore requested your posts be deleted. But please don't then try to turn this around as if I was the bad guy. Again, as far as I was concerned the subject was closed. I suggest you may also like go move on.

Pete

[Stustoys]

Pete,
I give up. I see no olive branches, maybe they are hard to see between the cheap shots and the name calling? I realise my English is far from perfect but I sometimes wonder if you even read my posts. I can't think of any other way to say what I have been saying, but the message isn't getting across. I'll repeat myself once more and I'm done.

I said is needed to be parallel.
You said it didn't need to be parallel(although later changed your mind and now are arguing that the wheel needs to be perfect in every way at all times for all work)
I said that if it didn't need to be parallel then you could dress the wheel by hand and it wouldn't matter(I also said that if you wanted to take a 0.0001" cut not to try this). The point of my post was, if not being parallel wouldn't matter, dressing by hand wouldn't matter.
You chose to call me a liar and start talking about if it was possible or not to dress a wheel by hand, "Stuart no you can't hold the diamond by hand" simply because you yourself cant dress a wheel by hand.

Deflection not only about grinding it also applies to cutting test bars on lathes, but you didn't listen to him either. Never mind though, battling on in ignorance don't mean your work will be no good. It just means it will likely take you longer. I do it all the time, my HSS tip angles are crazy(mostly 0 top rake and very little front rake), I'm sure someone that knew what they were doing could cut 3 times faster, but we both get there in the end, he just gets there a lot quicker. (in fact I guess as I know the angles are wrong, I'm not battling on in ignorance, I'm either being lazy or I have my own opinions and reason for doing what I do. Which BTW may or may not be correct)
I don't believe I can add anymore
Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Any chance of a bit of kiss and make up Boys? I enjoy reading the posts of both of you and it's real disappointing to watch this unfold. It wouldn't happen if we were all talking face to face. A smile and a laugh can defuse most things. Unfortunately, the written word can so easily be misinterpreted.

Most of the time I fumble around in the shed not really knowing what I'm doing. This forum is my main source of advice and provides me with considerable entertainment. Can we please keep it that way.

Bob

[Pete F]

I've tried Bob, I REALLY have tried. I agree, nobody wants to read this type of crap. I've tried admitting I was wrong, I've tried suggesting we put it all behind us and move on, I've tried just ignoring it and asking a simple question, no emotive language, just a simple SIMPLE question. Nope. Stuart's response to this you see for yourself directly above. "What olive branch" as he pees all over it yet again.

Stuart maybe, as you say, your English isn't terribly good, I don't know, I don't care, that's your business. I can only go on what you wrote and it was this ...


You could hold the diamond by hand and it would still work.
If you've got 0.0001" left to come off and want a good finish, I wouldn't try it though.


Ok correction, maybe you can't hold the diamond by hand. I and others I know can.
When I challenged you that if your did that there is no way the wheel would be ROUND or parallel this is what you said

Where did I say it would be round or parallel to the table

Since then the round part has conveniently been dropped and it's suddenly all about being parallel only. Despite me saying, now literally countless times, that I was mistaken about the need to be parallel you still keep going on about it. It's bizarre!

Speaking of which, now this bizarre reference to cutting test bars. I'm quite sure that would make no sense to anyone but Stuart and myself. But for your information Stuart I replicated PRECISELY, and I mean PRECISELY the setup and procedure as described in the Textbook of Turning, right down to using the same diameter bar, the only difference was that I didn't relieve the centre of the bar. So if you've got a problem with that process and deflection then I suggest you take it up with FW Hercus, not here. that has to do with any of this is a complete mystery however.

Finally, and this is the bit I love, NOW I've apparently called Stuart a liar!! FFS :doh:, cut and paste where I said that!!!! No, on second thoughts don't because you know what, I'm done here. I've got a great thing going with my life and I really have no interest in people who seem hell bent on trying to drag others down. As I said before, I'm really happy to try to pass on my experience, mainly because much of it is all so new and fresh; I feel like a kid who's just discovered a secret forrest and wants to tell all the other kids about it. If it's of value to others and helps them somehow, that's great, even if it's what NOT to do. I get a real kick out of helping others and passing on information, not because I want anyone to believe I'm "clever" (no chance of that I can assure), but simply because I've made a tiny, TINY positive difference to somebody's life. If on the other hand what I say is of no use, oh well I tried. However if that process means putting up with crap like this, or reading an unprovoked rant from somebody about one of my other keen interests, then forget it, sorry but I won't get dragged down to that level, it's just not worth it! Indeed I've been trying to unsubscribe to this thread, I have zero interest in the negativity, but it just seems to keep hitting my inbox. Some people struggle through life and never stop to wonder why that may be, what's the common denominator? I'm happy to say I'm not one of them and have no interest in becoming one either. Indeed Bob, strong personalities and the written language are a dangerous combination, but that was an olive branch I've already held out once.

Back to you for the final pee on the branch Stuart.

Pete