Did anyone here get this mill?

[Ropetangler]

A good mate of mine told me some days ago about this mill just sold on local eBay. Although made in Yugoslavia, it is apparently a Deckel clone. At the time it was around $350, with about 3 bids, and it didn't move too quickly until about the last 36 to 48 hours. It pretty well reached the selling price well before auction end, I had a look this morning with 2 hours to go and it was already there - not sure when the final bid was made.
There had been no mention of the "D" word, so anyone doing keyword searches would have had no warning of the availability of this machine, so I was a bit surprised at the price reached, my mate who has a comprehensively equipped shop with a Bridgeport, Victoria and Elliott (I think) mills, +Smith-Drum, Colchester and Monarch lathes +lots more nice stuff, wasn't too fussed about not getting this machine as he said, something would have to have been moved out to make room for it, and he had decided to limit his bidding to 2.5k at most.
It would still have been a nice machine for the money, provided that it was as described, so hopefully someone has a nice new (to them) acquisition.
Another nice small mill also sold today for what I would have thought was a completely over the top price, I hope for the sake of the buyer that my view is quite incorrect, and I would be interested in other forum member views. It was a well equipped and well preserved apparently example of a Hercus model 0 Vertical and Horizontal mill. Here are the links to the final price pages on eBay for both mills
Milling Machine (eBay item 120719907891 end time 14-May-11 11:31:35 AEST) : Industrial (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120719907891&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT#ht_500wt_1076)

HERCUS NUMBER "O" VERTICAL & HORIZONTAL MILLING MACHINE (eBay item 190531329823 end time 14-May-11 10:14:47 AEST) : Industrial (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190531329823&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT#ht_500wt_1076)

Regards All,
Rob.

[RayG]

Hi Ropetangler,

Both of those mills have been the subject of threads here in the last few days, I think Ken was going to buy both of them to go with his Arboga :D

Seriously the threads are here...
The Prvomajska Deckel clone is here...
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/euro-mill-ebay-135191/

The Hercus is here..
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/arboga-em825-mill-vs-hercus-model-0-mill-135186/

I still think Ken should have bought both...

Regards
Ray

[neksmerj]

I'm keeping my mouth shut about both of these gold plated mills.

Just have to figure out where to store them. Neighbour's on either side have their garages full of my stuff.

Ken

[Ropetangler]

Hi Ropetangler,

Both of those mills have been the subject of threads here in the last few days, I think Ken was going to buy both of them to go with his Arboga :D

Seriously the threads are here...
The Prvomajska Deckel clone is here...
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/euro-mill-ebay-135191/

The Hercus is here..
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/arboga-em825-mill-vs-hercus-model-0-mill-135186/

I still think Ken should have bought both...

Regards
Ray

Thanks Ray and Ken, I had seen the post heading from Greg, but hadn't opened it, thinking that it was about this mill. euro milling machine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/euro-milling-machine-/110686382740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item19c56c2a94#ht_500wt_1076)

I should have known better, seeing that it was one of Gregs posts, but with a lack of time and identical looking subject lines, it just didn't happen. I did see Kens post, but didn't check the link that BT provided. I still can't believe the price that little Hercus achieved, and although the one mentioned by BT was in the same area, that kind of money seems way too high to me, and as Ken says its Bridgeport territory. I have even seen K&T mills with appropriate table vice go for less than $1000 in Melbourne and the seller said that it was in good general condition with all speeds and feeds operational. He claimed to have been using it himself for some time before he sold it and the sister vertical mill of the same parentage. The Deckle clone was cheap in comparison, being far more mill in every way, for around $200 less. That's the way it goes sometimes I guess, and I certainly hope that both new owners gain much pleasure from their new toys. Cheers All
Rob.

[Greg Q]

Hi Rob. How is PDW?

In an incredible nexus of Prvomajska mills, there's another for sale in Melbourne (ebay). This one though is bereft of attachments, missing even its vertical head.

item 150605884859

Greg

[Ropetangler]

Hi Rob. How is PDW?

In an incredible nexus of Prvomajska mills, there's another for sale in Melbourne (ebay). This one though is bereft of attachments, missing even its vertical head.

item 150605884859

Greg

Hi Greg,
The world gets smaller every day. It was indeed PDW that I was referring to, tell me, was it the Smith-Drum that gave it away?
I have had a look at your link this time :wink:, and can only imagine the angst of the mills vendor when he found the vertical head had been pilfered from the Auctioneers premises when he bought it. If you'd caught someone in the act, the first instinct would be to throttle them, or at least terminate their breeding activities. I hope that he was able to negotiate a fair price reduction in view of the loss.
What did you think of the prices achieved on the 2 mills subject of this thread? I know that large industrial machines are often cheaper, because few people have the room and the power requirements can also pose issues, but this price for the Hercus was a bit OTT I think.
I don't have a mill yet nor a functioning lathe either for that matter, but when I get organised I think that I will investigate the possibility of importing something like a K&T from the states, using someone bringing containers into the country on a regular basis. I know a bloke, although have not seen him for 12 months or so now, who is involved in motor racing, and importing US. cars,engines, transmissions and go fast bits etc, or at least he was when I spoke to him last. We have 12 acres, so plenty of room but no suitable shed at the moment, so there is a lot to do before I am ready to buy up.
As to your question, PDW is well and was building a greenhouse for his beloved, when we spoke last weekend. He is planning a trip to the North Island of Tasmania at the end of this month, and has been busy building a steel yacht. That's probably more than enough from me, but thanks for making contact, and the flood of Deckels and Deckel clones goes on - long may it continue! Cheers,
Rob

[Greg Q]

Hi Rob...

I made the PDW connection when you mentioned Colchester and Monarch in the same line. I didn't know that he had a Smith-Drum.

You asked about my thoughts on these recent prices: I don't know jack about Hercus mills, but I do know they enjoy that kind of sentimental favourite status here, the way that all things South Bend do stateside.

The Deckel FP-1 style mills seem to me to be the absolute best buy for someone with a small space or small ambitions (no engine blocks, or at least not big ones). The range of accessories is vast, and if you get only a few with the mill then you are streets ahead. Also, they are dead easy to re-motor with a 240v three phase motor and a VFD.

I reckon an FP-1 (or similar) is miles ahead of an RF-45 for example. The folks on PM figure that they are better than Bridgeports too (but obviously a BP can handle larger workpieces.

I bought my 1948 FP-1 with a pallet load of goodies...much like that Prvosmajska (I think I'm spelling that differently every time:-)
There was a dealer with a similar one in Sydney three years ago who wanted $16K for it, then $12K. I don't know what he eventually got for it. In Europe the late model FP-1's are priced around € 20,000.00 bare.

Having said that, I will volunteer that if the next shed is bigger, and the money makes sense, I'll look for a larger mill to go with the FP-1, maybe an FP-3, 4 or a Maho of some sort.

There was a nice looking K&T on Melbourne ebay less than a year ago. I think it sold for around a grand. No one wants those things anymore commercially, and it takes an adventurous sort to want to rig those monsters. Rigid though.
The Huron mill we spoke of in the other thread would have been great (assuming condition, etc).

Greg

[Ropetangler]

Hi Rob...

I made the PDW connection when you mentioned Colchester and Monarch in the same line. I didn't know that he had a Smith-Drum.
You asked about my thoughts on these recent prices: I don't know jack about Hercus mills, but I do know they enjoy that kind of sentimental favourite status here, the way that all things South Bend do stateside.

The Deckel FP-1 style mills seem to me to be the absolute best buy for someone with a small space or small ambitions (no engine blocks, or at least not big ones). The range of accessories is vast, and if you get only a few with the mill then you are streets ahead.

Also, they are dead easy to re-motor with a 240v three phase motor and a VFD.

I reckon an FP-1 (or similar) is miles ahead of an RF-45 for example. The folks on PM figure that they are better than Bridgeports too (but obviously a BP can handle larger workpieces.

I bought my 1948 FP-1 with a pallet load of goodies...much like that Prvosmajska (I think I'm spelling that differently every time:-)
There was a nice looking K&T on Melbourne ebay less than a year ago. I think it sold for around a grand. No one wants those things anymore commercially, and it takes an adventurous sort to want to rig those monsters. Rigid though. The Huron mill we spoke of in the other thread would have been great (assuming condition, etc). Greg

O.K. Yes I guess that there wouldn't be too many Monarchs in Tasmania, probably plenty of Colchesters though -nothing wrong with them either.

I even feel that way about Hercus machines myself, and I agree that this factor would account for a premium in price for these "handy in size for home machinists", mills.

Good luck to you for getting your FP-1, was it a red hot deal, or would you say that you paid fair market value at the time?
Greg, would it be fair to say, That while the range is vast, the cost and availability of these accessories in Australia, would mean that in practice it would be difficult for most people to take advantage of them?

I saw that K&T I think. IIRC the vendor was a scrap dealer, or appeared to be, and he had 2 K&T mills, maybe one vertical and one horizontal, I can't be sure now, and I never saw that it did actually sell - he may have just scrapped it, I hope not :((.
There is another Huron (or was) not sure which, up in Queensland ATM, but asking price is around $7500, which is probably cheap for what it is, but it's way too much for me. I like the idea of the big American iron, big and massive, often mechanically simpler, and with more chance of reasonably priced replacement parts from The U.S. if the need arose. Strangely their cars do not appeal in the same way, I liked the smaller, more refined cars of Europe, or even the U.K, although pommie cars were often spoiled by poor detailing compared with European and Japanese cars. The American cars just wallowed around like land whales, but they had plenty of grunt.
Anyway it's getting close to bed time but thanks for your thoughts Greg, I have enjoyed our conversation. You may already be aware of this site, but if not they may be a source of bits for the machine you are project managing at the moment, anyway I hope you get something out of it. Cheers and best wishes,
Rob.

Spare parts | Prvomajska d.o.o. (http://www.prvomajska.hr/spare-parts.php)

[Greg Q]

Hi Rob. I paid what I thought was the high end of fair for a very dirty, tired mill. The only reason that I did was that you don't see enough (or didn't,LOL) Deckel type mills to be too choosy, it was very well equipped (slotter, vertical, horizontal, deckel collets, clarkson& collets, Wohlhaupter boring head, universal table, manuals, dividing head with overarm and some tooling.

WRT to finding accessories: I bought a couple of things on ebay Germany for what I considered to be a very good price (high speed head complete for €300.) A friend was visiting there so she fetched it back for me (just got it in fact).

I also was able to get some AMF clamps and slotter tooling and a microscope from a single seller for very good prices and good shipping too.

There are some good deals to be had if you avoid Franz Singer, who sells some very very nice things, but at hefty prices. He is the primary source for repair parts for the Deckel so I can't complain too loudly. Plus devoting so much space, time, money and effort to supporting a 50-year line of obsolete mills is the definition of a niche business.

Finally, I think that any of these Euro mills are good small horizontals, but the more attachments the richer the ownership experience. They are kind of like Hasselblad or Leica cameras: its more fun if you own the suitcase full of gizmos, plus in my case it becomes a handy target to focus my OCD on:oo:

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

GQ. Is your suitcase big enough to squeeze this in? How about one of these for your IIIA or your C. One of Ernst's less commonly encountered accessories.

Leica Museum Piece Stereo-Elmar 3,5/3,5 cm Outfit Lens - eBay (item 230611736710 end time May-20-11 07:20:57 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230611736710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

[Greg Q]

Oh, that's fantastic! But I should clarify that I own neither brand of camera as I didn't want to fall into that particular swirling miasma of want. Especially considering how many well-heeled aficionados there are.

My German friend returned Monday morning. They dropped by last night with my Haimer 3D taster. It's chock full of European goodness. She also brought most of my Deckel high-speed head, the rest is in the post.

In the world of Deckel accessories I think I have all the affordable ones. I am not ever going to get a helical milling attachment, so its just the jig bore head and riser that I'd make room for, but I am not holding my breath on that. Oh yeah, that dividing head vise that you linked a few months ago...I'd like one of those. And a genuine Röhm milling vise. And a...a...a..

Like a kid making a Santa list, isn't it?:cool:

[Anorak Bob]

Have you blokes seen this?

Milling machine German Maho | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Milling-machine-German-Maho-/230621481594?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BPSSI%252BSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%252BUCK%252BRTU%26otn%3D20%26pmod%3D110686382740%252B110686382740%26po%3D%26ps%3D63)

[Anorak Bob]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqQOKpUE24vI)(WgBNuN0GP8Gw~~_12.JPG

[Anorak Bob]

Oh, that's fantastic! But I should clarify that I own neither brand of camera as I didn't want to fall into that particular swirling miasma of want. Especially considering how many well-heeled aficionados there are.

My German friend returned Monday morning. They dropped by last night with my Haimer 3D taster. It's chock full of European goodness. She also brought most of my Deckel high-speed head, the rest is in the post.

In the world of Deckel accessories I think I have all the affordable ones. I am not ever going to get a helical milling attachment, so its just the jig bore head and riser that I'd make room for, but I am not holding my breath on that. Oh yeah, that dividing head vise that you linked a few months ago...I'd like one of those. And a genuine Røhm milling vise. And a...a...a..

Like a kid making a Santa list, isn't it?:cool:


Gregory,

Did you ever see the photos I posted of Alan's vise? The real thing.

Bob.

[Greg Q]

Yes Bob, I did. The little Deckel vises are pretty nice. The seller offered me one with the mill which I am still thinking about. I already own a German made "Star" brand which looks identical to the Deckel one, and a Glacern 5" which I think will see the most use.

That Maho you linked has been for sale for at least three years now at that price. He always has some pretty adventurous price tags on his junk. That Maho would be a nice project, but since it looks like it was "rode hard and put away wet" it would need to be almost free to make it worthwhile.

It looks like it has the variator type feed speed mechanism.

Greg

(By way of full disclosure I paid way too much for my lathe from this guy, so I think he's pricing stuff high in the hopes that lightning will strike twice in the same spot:()

(The seller in question has sold another Maho, an Abene and a Deckel in the last four years, so I wonder why he can't move this particular Maho?)

[Anorak Bob]

I do need to obtain a larger vise for the 13. The 4 inch B&S is beautiful but limited in both clamping range and flexibility. The 3 inch Hercus is too small and I don't want to talk about the Vertex.

If I can find a worthwhile photo of Schaublin's universal vise, I'll post it. You'll love it.

As far as the Maho goes, I don't bother to look at the mill offerings on Australian Ebay simply because I'm not in the market for another mill. That was one of those "similar items" they tuck down the bottom of the page. I had no idea it was old news.:no:

BT

[Stustoys]

Greg,
Looking for a project? How about this? Milling Machine | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/250811904797)
"Could be restored to working order with some work"
Has it been in a fire or something?

Stuart

[Greg Q]

Nah, thats one of those rare ex-RAN submarine mills. They were mounted outside of the sub though, so some slight surface rust may be evident.

That seller has plenty of chutzpah asking any money at all for that. Any self-respecting scrap vendor would charge to haul it away.

[Greg Q]

I do need to obtain a larger vise for the 13. The 4 inch B&S is beautiful but limited in both clamping range and flexibility. The 3 inch Hercus is too small and I don't want to talk about the Vertex.

If I can find a worthwhile photo of Schaublin's universal vise, I'll post it. You'll love it.


BT

If I get time later I'll do a "Vice squad" line up of the 6" Star, the Glacern and the Heinrich drill vise I bought.

GQ

[Anorak Bob]

Nah, thats one of those rare ex-RAN submarine mills. They were mounted outside of the sub though, so some slight surface rust may be evident.

That seller has plenty of chutzpah asking any money at all for that. Any self-respecting scrap vendor would charge to haul it away.

Fortunately I drank my cup of coffee 4 hours ago, otherwise I'd be cleaning up the mess! Typical GQ.

[Stustoys]

Nah, thats one of those rare ex-RAN submarine mills. They were mounted outside of the sub though, so some slight surface rust may be evident.

That seller has plenty of chutzpah asking any money at all for that. Any self-respecting scrap vendor would charge to haul it away.

lol

My thought was "if you think its worth $650, couldn't you afford a tarp?"
I wonder what he was asking the first time!

[Greg Q]

GQ. Is your suitcase big enough to squeeze this in? How about one of these for your IIIA or your C. One of Ernst's less commonly encountered accessories.

Leica Museum Piece Stereo-Elmar 3,5/3,5 cm Outfit Lens - eBay (item 230611736710 end time May-20-11 07:20:57 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230611736710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

Holy moley! I just clicked the ebay link to see what that Leica attachment goes for: $148,500 US dollars. Great Googly-moogly! On the other hand,I suppose you could make your own images for your GAF Viewmaster with one of those gizmos.

[Anorak Bob]

Might be a touch more economical to hunt down the 35mm camera, offered in 1952 as part of the View Master Personal range, to make your own discs!:U

[Greg Q]

I had no idea that they made cameras too. I just checked-ebay has a few listed. They look neat in that bygone era kind of way. Seeing objects like that makes me feel so old. I can remember looking at stereographs of Disneyland as a little kid in one of those bakelite viewmasters. That was as close as I got to the Magic Kingdom until I was 44 years old. That's a long time to wait for Cinderella's autograph:wink: