kayak or small boat for a beginer

[hazegry]

Hey guys I would like a sail able kayak with outriggers but dont know if I am biting off more than I can chew with it. I have done wood working before and some wooden rc boats. Anyways I was wondering if you guys had any inputs on what to start with. I was looking at some skin on frame kayaks a few years ago and I am wondering if you could fiberglass a skin on frame and make it more durable. I am not looking for anything fancy I just want to sail around and have fun.

[labr@]

Have a look at Michael Storer's site for a start. He is known as Boatmik here and has his own section in this forum. It contains some threads on his Beth sailing canoe, the ones by RobhoSailor in Poland being particularly good (IMHO).

Drop-in Canoe/Kayak Rig - Michael Storer Boat Design (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Canoebits/KayakRig.html)

Mik also has outrigger and drop in sail rig plans available plus extensive sailing experience.

As for glassing a skin on frame my opinion is that you would be better off building a stitch and glue canoe or kayak.

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Hazegry
Start with where you want to use it - open waters? rivers? usual wind strength?
- and what sort of ratio paddling vs sailing you have in mind - which needs to perform better?
Other requirements - eg fishing? rapid-running? car-topping? storage limits
on length?
How stable does it need to be without the out-riggers?

From these you get to an idea of boat shape, & open/closed deck. etc,
then it's just a case of finding plans to fit.

At one end, Duckworks have just listed a series of canoe trimarans which are
a tri first & second, and look like a very easy build. The main hull would likely
be -most- unstable & unpaddlable without the outriggers. As an open boat, it
wouldn't be suitable for choppy bays & lakes without being decked in.

The other end is a stable kayak such as Bufflehead or Mill Creek from Chesapeake,
and add Michael Storer's drop-in outriggers & sail assemblies. Even easier
would be Michael's Eureka canoe with the drop-ins.

Both of these approaches would be fairly easy to accomplish, and there are
a host of middle grounds, mostly varying the kayak hull to suit other uses -
eg a sea kayak centre hull. I think Chesapeake also do a sailing & outrigger
assembly to suit their sea kayaks.
Look forward to seeing what track you go down.
cheers
AJ

[hazegry]

I am leaning to a trimaran kayak I am in va beach we have lakes open bay and open ocean here so lots of water to choose from I would love to play in the bay eventually. no fishing I just want to be on the water and have fun puttering around.

[pajeronj]

Hi guys
I want a fishing boat that is paddleable (!) and motorable. I like the look of the commercial plastic fishing kayaks but don't have that kind of money. I think what I'm after is a craft of about 4 metres, shallowish draft, able to be powered by a small electric or petrol motor and stable enough to stand up in.
I spend a bit of time fishing in the Murray River which is quite quick so the craft needs to be stable and have good lines. Last Easter I took my 3.4metre tinny up there but really struggled with the mass of it and carting around the 15hp motor as well. Ah well I guess we all have to face ageing?
I just need something to get me out on the water (Murray, Dartmouth, Eildon or Eucumbene) in comfort and reasonable safety. I have been looking at the American duckboats and they’re great but probable wouldn’t do for what I want.
I would love to have a go at building it myself and completely accept that in order to get a quality product I’[m going to have to pay for the plans. I thought about Michael Storer’s electric canoe with maybe some sponsons attached to the side but am not sure how these would affect his design?
Peter

[anewhouse]

Peter, you have set yourself some conflicting criteria.

If you are determined to stand up in your boat/kayak/craft, it will be difficult or impossible to keep it narrow enough to be able to paddle comfortably and efficiently. It will probably also be so slow that you will have problems paddling against the current. It also becomes more cumbersome to handle off the water.

Four metres is beginning to get short for a kayak and as the kayak becomes shorter it needs to become wider or fuller at the ends to get enough stability. That will make it even slower to paddle.

A lot of stability in a kayak comes from the fact that the centre of gravity is kept low. In a sea kayak, your backside is generally below the water level. Even raising the level of the seat noticeable affects the stability. Standing up needs a lot of stability or a very good sense of balance. :):)

If you decide to add outriggers to get a narrow hull, they will need to be far enough back to allow you to paddle. They will also add to the weight and cost of construction. The amount of material in a hull and two outriggers would be greater than in a single hull with the same amount of floatation.

Good quality materials are not cheap and as far as I know there is no such thing as cheap epoxy, so you might find that the cost is not much less than a basic cheap plastic SOT.

That doesn't mean you can't build something like what you are describing, but you might need to lower your sights (or your fishing position :p ) and you should be aware of the problems you are likely to face.

But don't let me discourage you. :):)

[pajeronj]

Thanks newhouse
I guess I was using the notion of standing up as a measure of stability. My mate Patto has a great kayak which is reasonably easy to push through the water but my goodness it's tripperish - as I can testify. Patto fishes succesfully out of it though.

The story is that my wife and I both love camping and fishing and as I am ageing I find it more difficult to manage my 3.4 metre tinny with its 15hp Yamaha. The whole shebang fits on top of the camper and in younger days I used to pick it up single handedly (or so the story goes). My wife suggested selling the tinny and getting a couple of kayaks. Then I though it might not be clever to shell out $4000 odd or a couple of kayaks only to find I couldn't manage them either. So I thought about building one to see how it would go. I would paddle a bit but mainly use a small electric trolling motor. The Murray around Strathmerton flows quite quickly and it's an uphill battle paddling Patto's big kayak upstream. Plus the currents can throw you around a bit and I certainly don't have the skill or experience to be on top of that.

I have a Sevylor fish hunter but Coleman are a nightmare to deal with trying to get repair kits and rowlocks - I reckon they did their customer service training through Fawlty Towers.

So here we are. Maybe I should have said all this earlier. I certainly didn't find your reply discouraging, in fact I am grateful to you. I actually bought the PDRacer plans with a view to using the boat to fish out of and with the flexibility of sailing it as well. But that project got shelved due to time constraints and a heap of family stuff.
Peter

[anewhouse]

I believe that something that might suit your needs is a canoe with a transom to mount your electric outboard.

When I become too decrepit to paddle my kayaks, I have visions of doing something like that. I am only 64, so I hope it is a few years off yet. :)

A canoe built as either stitch and glue or strip built, could be quite light. With the right materials and a bit of care, you should be able to build it around 15 to 20 kg. One disadvantage of strip construction is that it takes a while to complete, probably 150 to 250 hours for a canoe, but the biggest disadvantage is that it can sometimes take a long time to get the kayak or canoe on the water or back on the car because you have to spend ages explaining to curious onlookers that, "yes, you did build it yourself, and yes, it really is made from timber strips". Strip canoes and kayaks can be real works of art.

There are probably plans available for such a craft, but if not, then there is free software available to design one yourself and plenty of help available on various forums. This site for example has an excellent program and some very experienced kayak builders to offer advice.
Blue Heron Kayaks (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html)

As long as you are prepared to sit down to fish, you should be able to create something in which you would feel quite safe, which moves along at an impressive speed with the electric outboard, which can be paddled reasonable efficiently, and which is light enough to lift onto the roof racks.

By keeping the weight down fairly low, including the weight of the battery, you should be able to get something that is quite safe, but narrow enough to paddle comfortably.

[KJL38]

As Newhouse said any paddle craft wide enough to stand up in will be inefficient to paddle. Maybe an oar powered boat would work better. A couple of possibilities are Welcome to Angus Rowboats (http://www.angusrowboats.com/salamander.html) and Simple and fast to build, stitch and tape Adirondack Guideboats (http://www.guideboat.ca/16ft_guideboat.html)
These would still be marginal for standing up so if standing up is essential you may need a wider waterline.

If you modified them to have a small transom above the waterline you could easily mount an electric motor.

[pajeronj]

Thanks very much for your thoughts. Maybe I might just go back to the PDRacer but not try making the sailng gear. I'm afraid even that stuff made me doubt that I could build it. Still there's no good sitting around doing nothing. I do like the idea of a canoe with a transom to fit an electric trolling motor so I'll keep looking there. I notice Michael Storer had a simple canoe that one could no doubt stick an outboard on. Thanks very much, very helpful.
Peter:2tsup:

[anewhouse]

Have a look at some of the other designs on Michael Storer's site.

His "Eureka Canoe" looks like a much better design than the "Quick Canoe". It is obviously a bit more complicated to build, but I can think of a couple of reasons why I would expect it to perform better.

Eureka Canoes - Light Simple Wooden Touring Canoes Stitch and Glue - Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Eureka/Eurekacanoes.html)

There is no reason why you wouldn't be able to add a transom to the "Eureka" in the same way it was done to the "Quick Canoe".

Of course, you don't have to build it with a transom. Electric outboards can be mounted on the side of the canoe.

[pajeronj]

OOooo, I notice there's a completed PD Racer for sale at Duckflat. Maybe that might be an answer to my calls for help - buy one already built?
Agree about the Eureka they look really classy and I also agree qbout the motor mounts. I saw one today in a triangle shape that mounted on the rear of a conventional canoe and powered it that way. Very clever!!

We'll see how the PDRacer at Duckflat goes and failing that - look at the canoe option.

P.S. It's in SA and I'm in Victoria - drat

[IanHowick]

Michael Storer has a quick canoe version that is a bit wider and more stable and has a transom to take a small outboard or electric motor, it would be the simplest possible build for such a thing. It would go very well with the electric trolling motor, there would be other designs that would be better paddling canoes or kayaks, but it would be possible to make some progress under paddles. It might go quite well with a set of oars and riggers.

If my main priority was just pottering around on the water and fishing and so on, I'd drop ability to sail off my list of desirable features. Sailing is just the slowest, most inconvenient, complicated and expensive way of getting around ever invented, especially if you're on a river or coastal waters. Soon as you look at sailing it, it has to be more stable, so needs to be wider or have outriggers, needs to be strong enough, needs centreboard and rudder... The list is endless.

The Quick Canoe Electric (http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/boat/dinghy/quick-canoe-electric-a-simple-cheap-electric-powered-boat/) would go quickly and cheaply as a build and be stable enough for two for fishing.

Ian

[pajeronj]

Yes it's looking more like one of these quick canoes. I really just want to make sure I can handle it. If stability becomes an issue I notice Michael has some pontoon plans. I'd like to build the OzRacer as I have the plans but not too sure of my abilities. As has been said before here that ablitiy comes with trial and error. The video of the dirty banana was very informative and very helpful. It was a great video to watch - loved the look on the dog!! I will dosome thinking over the weekend.

[dinghybuild]

Hey Guys,

For any of you who are keen on working with timber and would like to have a go at learning how to build a boat of simple construction that requires very few tools and very little space this might be good for you to look at.

The Tweed Community College on the Qld / NSW border has been running Boat Building for Beginners courses for some years now and I have been told they have another course starting on Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding in Sept 2011.

For anyone interested in learning about how to put a small boat together you can contact the college on (07) 5524 8884 for information.

Regards
Dinghybuild :)

[anewhouse]

I wonder if you are thinking too much about ease of construction and not enough about performance.

Think about how much time you are going to spend building compared with how much time you will spend paddling (or cruising) in the kayak/canoe/craft/vessel. I think that Michael's Eureka is a superior canoe, and to my eye, a much better looking craft. I have reason to believe that Michael would agree with me.

You need to thinks about whether you are building a one or two person canoe that you will be easily able to lift onto your roof bars or a two person canoe that might be a real struggle for one person. I notice that the weight of the Electric Quick is listed as 28kg while the Eureka is 15 to 20kg. Trust me, there is a lot of difference between manhandling a 15kg canoe and a 28kg canoe. I suppose the the weight of the Quick could be reduced with the right materials and the weight of the Eureka could be greater with different materials.

There are some compromises that have been made to make the construction of the Quick Canoe very simple, but I believe that they create some handling problems that are not especially desirable. I believe the Eureka doesn't suffer from those problems. I am not trying to suggest that the problems with the Quick make it dangerous or anything like that. Clearly it is a successful design, but there are better designs in Michael's range.

I hope none of this is seen as attacking Michale's designs. I am really just repeating or rephrasing something that he said himself about the Eureka. His website says:

Reports of the first Eureka wooden canoe launched show it to be much easier to paddle than the usual plywood canoe, and indeed much better than most production glass hulls - this becomes important where distances are being covered - greatly reducing the effort required from the paddlers.

The other major bit of feedback is on the appearance - the EUREKA 155 is a very handsome boat - quite unusual for the average plywood boatbuilding project.

I would encourage you to think seriously about whether a few days saved in the construction is worth it to finish up with a canoe that will probably be heavier than it needs to be, and doesn't look as good or perform as well as another of Michael's designs.

[b.o.a.t.]

I'll second anewhouse's coments.
I have the Eureka & Outrigger plans (but not built yet).
Eureka is a very simple build from two sheets of ply plus sundries.
The outriggers are even simpler.
MIK's plans are a complete boat-building course.
You can add a tiny donk to the outrigger if you want.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/eureka-canoe-outrigger-128887/

QC was designed around a particular brief - disposable boat touring.
Compromise for extreme quick & dirty build is some loss of performance & looks.
You could easily put in as much effort on a Quick Canoe as a Eureka & still finish
with an inferior boat.

Another possibility is Duck Flat's Traveller. A canoe with a transom.
Bolger also designed (at least one) motor canoe. Here's another thought-
provoking exerpt from BWAOM in which he discusses some of the issues
which saw their demise from popular usage.
cheers
AJ

[hazegry]

well I would love to go tot he class but as I am military its hard to get time off like that. I am leaning more and more to a skin on frame as I dont have a planer that will allow me to do a strip kayak or canoe.

[labr@]

Hazegry,

Your thread seems to have been hijacked somewhat but to get back to your situation I think any of stitch/glue, strip or SOF would be doable for you. I recently did a strip build and cut my own strips with a circular saw but I don't own an electric planer or thicknesser - just used a hand plane where needed.

You mentioned in your first post that you were worried about durability of SOFs but I doubt that this is really an issue for open water which is where I presume you will be. I am guessing you would be sailing on and around Chesapeake Bay? Have a look at the videos on the Kudzu craft site - Jeff shows just how tough a SOF can be and I must say I don't think either my S&G or strip built boats would take what he dishes out to his old SOF!

Kudzu Craft (http://kudzucraft.kudzupatch.com/video/toughboat.php)

Having said this I suspect that if you want to sail with a trimaran setup then a S&G kayak like the Jem Laker would be a good base and the outriggers/mast design from Mik would be a good combination. My Laker is the 13' but there are 2 longer versions. This is a very simple, easily built design that has relatively low initial stability but low drag so would suit an outrigger setup and I am investigating fitting something like this to mine at the moment.

[hazegry]

thanks Labr@ very cool site I think I am going to give the long shot a try. Kudzu Craft skin boats - Long Shot Plans (http://www.kudzucraft.com/store/viewitem.php?productid=30) just need to save up some money now and get the plans and builders kit so I can get started. I am going to use poly for skin so I can paint it.