The new scraping thread

[Greg Q]

After getting distracted from something else on the spindle video thread I thought I'd start a new thread here. Some photos below of a triplet of scrapers. Top is a Sandvik Coromant carbide scraper sporting a replacement handle made from a pad saw. Below it a file-sized piece of CRS with a carbide tip brazed on-I bought it from Forrest Addy when I took the scraping class in Seattle a couple of years ago. The bottom one is made from an alloy handled screwdriver I bought at a flea market. a 12mm carbide tip is brazed on and rounded to a small radius for very fine work.

The Biax power scraper can be seen dangling from its tool balancer which I find a must for prolonged sessions.

The granite plate with a couple of drops of red dye spread with a printer's brayer. Its important to be able to see the pattern through the dye. This much will last a couple of hours of constant spotting.

I bought the red dye from Forrest too.

The tools are resting on the cast iron plate I'm scraping. You can see the pattern left after the last scraping cycle. I stoned off the surface with a diamond stone using a very heavy hand-much more than used when you approach a flat condition. This piece is still very hollow in the middle which you'd expect after years of use in a shop. (And moving with age)

Greg

[Greg Q]

The missing photo

[Stustoys]

Greg,
Is your granite pink or black? Do you cover it with something between spottings to keep dust off?

Stuart

[RayG]

Duplicating the post in the other thread, but gently moving the discussion towards the scraping thread..


Dyken layout fluid isn't suitable as it's not designed to transfer from one surface to another. I haven't done much scraping, but use bearing blue and found it easy to obtain from a local engineering supplier.

Pete

Hi Pete,

No, not the layout blue, it's the stuff in a tube.

http://www.victornet.com/productimages/513.jpg
I think Greg's stuff sounds cleaner.. .. is water soluble is good

Regards
Ray
PS I should have replied in the scraping thread... which I will now do..

[Pete F]

Yes that's what I use Ray, just another brand (Holts). But Greg's brew sounds much better. While I spread the blue with a little rubber roller, the name of which eludes me at present (brayer??), I clean my plate with the heal of my hand (I have no idea if this technique is "correct", just what I do). It's crap stuff to get off, so I typically then wander off to work looking like I'm turning into a smurf!! Suffering through washing a load of dishes would be worth the pain if that's all it took to remove it.

Pete

[Greg Q]

That Hi-Spot is the right stuff. Clean-up the only issue. Do you recall how much it cost Ray?

Stuart, my granite plate is neither-it's kind of a beige/white granite from the old Czechoslovakia. I bought it from a Gray's auction where all the machines looked showroom, including a beautiful Hardinge that fetched $35,000+. The plate surveys out ok, but it does have quite a few little pits. The nice thing about granite is that lost material doesn't come with a raised crater lip like iron does.

I have come to the reluctant conclusion that when it comes to granite plates of any size you are better off (but poorer) to buy new.

And before I forget, I don't cover the plate between scraping spotting cycles but I do check with my palm and roll it out again with the brayer. I found that as long as you keep the plate a few steps from the scraping area it doesn't get contaminated too much.

Plate contamination leads to confusing and false readings, but particles show up as little ink coloured orbits*. I'll post a picture of a deliberate one maybe tomorrow if I get time.

*because I put the work on the plate and move it in little circles to transfer the ink. Others go back and forth or figure eights. Whatever motion is comfy is best according to Richard King who is another scraping tutor.

GQ

[Greg Q]

Yes that's what I use Ray, just another brand (Holts). But Greg's brew sounds much better. While I spread the blue with a little rubber roller, the name of which eludes me at present (brayer??), I clean my plate with the heal of my hand (I have no idea if this technique is "correct", just what I do). It's crap stuff to get off, so I typically then wander off to work looking like I'm turning into a smurf!! Suffering through washing a load of dishes would be worth the pain if that's all it took to remove it.

Pete

I used to wonder if that's what bank robbers look like after the dye pack blows off in the bag of loot. Caught blue-handed.

Brayer is correct

[Pete F]

Brayer is correct

Oh yes. I thought it was something spelt remarkably similar to what I'm normally doing when I'm machining!

[RayG]

Hi GQ,

It's in the latest order I've got coming from victornet.com $5.95

Dykem layout fluids - Blue and red layout fluids for machine shop layout, and Dykem steel markers. (http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/victor/subdepartments/Layout-Fluids-and-Markers/1080.html)

I tacked it onto an order for 01 tool steel, so it will be interesting to see if it actually gets here. (their web site says not for export :no:)

In any event, I like the sound of your stuff better, nice colour too.

Replying to Dave's comment in the other thread,


Hi Ray,
This is a quote from the link below
"The typical precision of a surface grinder depends on the type and usage, however +/- 0.002 mm (+/- 0.0001") should be achievable on most surface grinders."
Surface grinding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_grinding)
Scraping as Greg said can get down to 0.00005 inch
Scraped ways are also said to be superior over ground because they have less stiction, but I have found as long as one surface is scraped this hasn't been a problem.



I doubt I'm getting down to 0.002mm accuracy, I can't measure down past 0.005mm as it is, but you've answered the question, scraping is significantly more accurate. But you raise another question (stiction) , ways are often patterned (I believe to help retain oil) how does this affect the accuracy? Do you deliberately create some kind of pattern when scraping?

Regards
Ray

[Greg Q]

Ah yes, the power of prayer. I remember as a kid I prayed for a new bike but didn't get it. The parish priest told me God didn't work that way. So I stole the bike, then prayed for forgiveness. :wink:

[Stustoys]

Greg,
So the spotting fluid covers well then.
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to this but here goes. Have you seen the price of a large name brand plate?

Stuart

[Greg Q]

Hi GQ,

It's in the latest order I've got coming from victornet.com $5.95

Dykem layout fluids - Blue and red layout fluids for machine shop layout, and Dykem steel markers. (http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/victor/subdepartments/Layout-Fluids-and-Markers/1080.html)

I tacked it onto an order for 01 tool steel, so it will be interesting to see if it actually gets here. (their web site says not for export :no:)

In any event, I like the sound of your stuff better, nice colour too.

Replying to Dave's comment in the other thread,


I doubt I'm getting down to 0.002mm accuracy, I can't measure down past 0.005mm as it is, but you've answered the question, scraping is significantly more accurate. But you raise another question (stiction) , ways are often patterned (I believe to help retain oil) how does this affect the accuracy? Do you deliberately create some kind of pattern when scraping?

Regards
Ray

Yeah, you see a lot of that flaking for oil retention on ways, most of it wrong according to my tutors. The thinking goes that flaking or pocketing belongs on the hidden way, but the exposed part should be scraped only because of dirt sticking in the recesses. The idea is to scrape to as many spots per square inch so that after the flaking there is still sufficient bearing. The highest quality bearing is one that has a balance of high spots with deeper areas for oil retention anyway.

Flaking is done in half moon patterns that link so that the oil can be spread evenly over the sliding surfaces and take a serpentine path out.

I want to buy or borrow a Biax 10ELM half moon scraper for flaking because the only attempts at it that I have made have been crap. I guess its an acquired skill:?

[Greg Q]

Greg,
So the spotting fluid covers well then.
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to this but here goes. Have you seen the price of a large name brand plate?

Stuart

Yup. Gutting. I am waiting on a quote from a car importer on the price to ship in two or three plates from the states.

[Pete F]

Hey Greg, here's a question without notice. Do you think flaking is advantageous if the surfaces are already scraped (versus ground). Personally I think flaking is a bit of wank anyway, but a) would I know b) it looks cool ... well if it's done correctly. My attempts are pathetic. I mean TRULY pathetic :D

I wouldn't think it would really have any benefits on a scraped surface in terms of oil retention. Thought?

Pete

[Greg Q]

I don't know...a lot of what was done decades ago was based on a less than perfect understanding of the physical world at the microscopic scale. I think two scraped surfaces have plenty of scope for oil retention, but the flaking may aid in distribution. You know how one way will have a little furrow in it for to allow oil to wick from the oiler across a larger area? I reckon the flaking is supposed to pick up oil from that and spread it laterally across the way.

I'll have to draw it out later.

I don't think that I have ever seen flaking on a Deckel mill. I'd be interested to know what's under Bob's Schaublin ways. The Perrin has no evidence of flaking either.

Apart from that there is the other area that Bob asked about: the decorative effects. That's an area that interests me very much, but there's not much info on it. My early attempts at that have been crude but not disheartening.

[.RC.]

Greg,
So the spotting fluid covers well then.
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to this but here goes. Have you seen the price of a large name brand plate?

Stuart

Not as bad as what you think... Around $2300 for a 36X24 Starrett.... There is a dealer in Sydney that sells them..

I have similar tools to Greg... An old 7EL Biax and I also use Canode ink, but I also have some home brew Prussian Brew given to me by a professional tool rebuilder in Melbourne.. It is just prussian blue powder and grease mixed together..

I also have some Yellow canode for highlighting...

Currently working on a Macson TC grinder... Very slowly... It only has one set of V and flat to scrape.. I have got the flat done but need to make up a template for the V.. I purchased some cast iron bar today to make the template.. Like Greg I also have a 18 and 38" straight edge that we purchased as cast from the US..


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_DSCF2101Custom.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/DSCF2101Custom.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_36straightedgemachining005.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/36straightedgemachining005.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_18INCHSTRAIGHTEDGE003Custom.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/18INCHSTRAIGHTEDGE003Custom.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_IMG_0612Custom.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/IMG_0612Custom.jpg)

[.RC.]

Some Biax videos

YouTube - ‪Biax practice scraping‬‏

YouTube - ‪biax scraping‬‏

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/th_straightedges.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/?straightedges.jpg)

[Dave J]

RC,
I thought you had the Biax flaker as well that you used on you vice?

Dave

[.RC.]

No, I did a bit of hand flaking on it.... What a disaster that was (the flaking)

BTW I am selling my 18"X24"X3" surface plate if anyone is interested... $165+ freight..ex Rockhampton Qld..

[Stustoys]

Got some more details on the plate .RC.? sounds like something I would be interested in. I'll pm you

Stuart

[Stustoys]

.RC.
Did you use the horizontal head because it made the work holding easier?(What do you think of that head btw, should I be looking out for one?)
What angle did you put on the side face of the smaller one?

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

I can provide storage for you (at a competitive rate) if you can't find room for it. :)

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Well thanks Ray, but I think you have enough pretties already, I need to lift the tone of my shed lol. If you have a job in mind i'm sure we can work something out. Thats assuming it ends up in my shed.
Stuart

[Dave J]

Hi Stuart,
You are lucky it's still there. RC posted up about it on PM a few months ago, and I thought it would have gone by now.

Dave

[eskimo]

Yup. Gutting. I am waiting on a quote from a car importer on the price to ship in two or three plates from the states.

what what what....let me know eh?

[.RC.]

Found this in Melbourne

http://www.toolingonline.com.au/home.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=46&category_id=63

[Bryan]

Hi Stuart,
You are lucky it's still there. RC posted up about it on PM a few months ago, and I thought it would have gone by now.

Dave

If I'd known I wouldn't have bent over for McJing. Ouch.

[Greg Q]

Thanks for the link RC. I sent a message regarding larger sizes (I imagine I'm not Robinson Crusoe there?)

Greg

[Stustoys]

What is a "Smooth 'Ball bearing' surface"?

Bryan,
Did you get in before their price rise?

Stuart

[.RC.]

Who is busy this saturday?

ALPA Clearing Sales - Rural Property, Sales Calendar, Clearing Sales, Livestock, Australian Rural Property, Australian Livestock, Australian Property, Rural Realestate (http://www.alpa.net.au/ViewClearingSales/?ClearingSaleID=395)

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Who is busy this saturday?

ALPA Clearing Sales - Rural Property, Sales Calendar, Clearing Sales, Livestock, Australian Rural Property, Australian Livestock, Australian Property, Rural Realestate (http://www.alpa.net.au/ViewClearingSales/?ClearingSaleID=395)

Oh, fer cryin' out loud, always interstate!

It's probably a good thing I can't justify getting up at 2 or 3 in the morning to go for a little drive, because I might not have any money left for petrol to get back....

[RayG]

Found this in Melbourne

http://www.toolingonline.com.au/home.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=46&category_id=63


Hi .RC, Thanks for posting that, I'll be down that way tomorrow, I might pick one up. if I can save the freight cost, 400x400 is a useful size for what I need.

Regards
Ray

[Bryan]

What is a "Smooth 'Ball bearing' surface"?

Bryan,
Did you get in before their price rise?

Stuart

Nah, I paid about 500 delivered for a 400 x 600. You'd think you'd get some documentation for that price but you'd be wrong.

[Stustoys]

Bryan,
As I've said elsewhere, I wasn't very impressed after waiting 8 months for them to get them back in stock to find the price had gone up 40% even with what the $AU had done. Still, its their job to set their prices and my job to decide if I will pay it or not.

Does it say where it was made?
Stuart

[Greg Q]

Thanks for the link RC. I sent a message regarding larger sizes (I imagine I'm not Robinson Crusoe there?)

Greg

I got a reply from Ariel at online tooling-they are looking into the larger sizes. I linked this thread inviting them to post on it directly.

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

I don't know...a lot of what was done decades ago was based on a less than perfect understanding of the physical world at the microscopic scale. I think two scraped surfaces have plenty of scope for oil retention, but the flaking may aid in distribution. You know how one way will have a little furrow in it for to allow oil to wick from the oiler across a larger area? I reckon the flaking is supposed to pick up oil from that and spread it laterally across the way.

I'll have to draw it out later.

I don't think that I have ever seen flaking on a Deckel mill. I'd be interested to know what's under Bob's Schaublin ways. The Perrin has no evidence of flaking either.

Apart from that there is the other area that Bob asked about: the decorative effects. That's an area that interests me very much, but there's not much info on it. My early attempts at that have been crude but not disheartening.

GQ, I have not removed the horizontal headstock so I can't comment on the extent of scraping on the body ways. Here is the visible scraping.

BT

[Pete F]

Bob are all those pictures of scraped surfaces? The first couple look more like grinding with frosting/flaking added. It may just be how it looks in the photos.

Pete

[Bryan]

Does it say where it was made?
Stuart

Made in China on the box. Now there's a surprise.

[Anorak Bob]

Bob are all those pictures of scraped surfaces? The first couple look more like grinding with frosting/flaking added. It may just be how it looks in the photos.

Pete

Just shows how much I know about frosting / scraping Pete, F A :doh:. I'm here to learn.

I found a couple of photos of another 13 with the horizontal headstock removed. Whilst not really clear you can see scraping on the ways of the main casting. Keeping these photos company is one of an FP-1 showing frosting on it's vertical ways which suggests that both the Swiss and their neigbours partook in self abuse. :o:no:

[Pete F]

With your standards of workmanship I can imagine you getting in to scraping in a big way Bob. The last photo shows some nicely scraped slides.

[Byc]

Yes Love the wood and well done:)

[Anorak Bob]

The 13 would benefit from some correctly applied scraping. Wear is apparent in the X and Y axes. The machine is 49 years old. It's not bad but there is a discernable tightness towards the limit of travel in those directions. I would want to be proficient in the art before I tackled the task. I will watch keenly as this tutorial progresses.

BT

[Stustoys]

Made in China on the box. Now there's a surprise.
Not as surprising as finding out the little one I bought is Taiwanese. lol

Stuart

[RayG]

Found this in Melbourne

http://www.toolingonline.com.au/home.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=46&category_id=63


Hi .RC,

Thanks again for finding that, I bought one on line from the website and picked it up this afternoon, the guy has a pretty good range of stuff, but since he is really only setup only for on-line sales, you have to ring to arrange a pickup time. But seeing it weighs 55 kg, pick-up is a good option if you live in Melbourne. I imagine freight would be expensive.

Nice guy, very helpful.

Here is the surface plate, comes with a calibration sheet and looks ok, although I don't profess to know what constitutes a good surface plate. 400x400x100 for $250 seems like a good deal to me.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/DSCN0444.JPG

Now I can start properly checking those squares and angle plates.

Regards
Ray

[mic-d]

I went looking for some links I found when I was beginning scraping. Here is one of the fellows at Kitamura with the heavy duty pelvic thrust method:)

YouTube - ‪Kitamura Hand Scraping of a Vertical Machining Center‬‏

This is more like a standard method, except I think you need to be more constant once you've settled on the direction you are scraping this iteration.

YouTube - ‪scraping in a lathe's bed // Bettbrücke einschaben‬‏

From good old Wiki, what a finely scraped surface looks like.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Scrapestandard.jpg

This scraping summary pdf (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&sqi=2&ved=0CEEQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schsm.org%2FSCRAPING.pdf&ei=fFjpTbXDMI2EvAOyotC8Dw&usg=AFQjCNF5GOlKih9b7dT41zXjupBOpCqRIw&sig2=cRhcwREH88V_LtMQsjQ1EQ) may also be of use.


A couple of my scraped planes:
172034 172035

Also for anyone interested in one way of sharpening the TC scraper insert, there is an explanation of how I do it at the bottom of this link (http://www.woodworkforums.com/blogs/mic-d/4-restoration-installment-six-702/). Note I only use the 3000grit diamond powder now and it still gives a fine mirror finish to the TC.

[Dave J]

Your getting well tooled up Ray.:2tsup:

Dave

[Greg Q]

I have a brand new in box Sandvik Coromant carbide scraper for sale if anyone is interested. $120.00 + post.

[Stustoys]

Greg,
I'll take it off your hands.
Stuart

[Greg Q]

Done. If anyone else wants one please let me know as I may be able to get more at that price.

Greg

[RayG]

Your getting well tooled up Ray.:2tsup:

Dave

Hi Dave,

That's one word for it!, we seem to have embarked on an accuracy kick since getting the surface grinder running, and discovering that none of the angle plates are square, none of the engineering squares are any better... so I'm making a cylindrical square at present, already spent most of today lapping and measuring... when it's finished there will be one end lapped square (well close to square) and then we will grind the other end deliberately at a slight angle, (maybe a 10 thou tilt) so that when it's on the surface plate we can rotate to find that one spot which is perfectly square... (I hope)

Wow, Stuart you were quick off the mark with that scraper, good decision.

Regards
Ray

PS that el-cheapo surface plate is grade 00, 2.2 um flatness.

[Stustoys]

That's one word for it!, we seem to have embarked on an accuracy kick since getting the surface grinder running

Sounds a little like my mill going to 0.001mm, even though I know it makes little to no differance for awhile I tried hitting all the 0's, now I'm all rough and settle for +/- 0.02 mm. Scrapping won't work like that.

, and discovering that none of the angle plates are square, none of the engineering squares are any better... so I'm making a cylindrical square at present, already spent most of today lapping and measuring... when it's finished there will be one end lapped square (well close to square) and then we will grind the other end deliberately at a slight angle, (maybe a 10 thou tilt) so that when it's on the surface plate we can rotate to find that one spot which is perfectly square... (I hope)

How are you going to test it Ray? The turely square line on the cyclinder wont be vertical(no I haven't done the math on how much differeance it will make).



Wow, Stuart you were quick off the mark with that scraper, good decision.

Cable has to be good for something lol


PS that el-cheapo surface plate is grade 00, 2.2 um flatness.
rough!!!!! lol

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

This get's a bit like Alice in Wonderland disappearing down a rabbit hole chasing microns, not going to fall for that trap :rolleyes:

Nothing is straight, nothing is flat, nothing is square.. (without some mention of tolerance that is) Except maybe a laser beam is pretty straight..

I'd like to be confidant of at least 0.01mm accuracy for squareness, I don't really know for sure, but I suspect that without temperature control and clean-room conditions I suspect it's going to be near impossible to reliably get much better..

Starret No 20 Master squares are specified to 0.0025mm per 150mm That would be nice.
The best one I have is 0.05mm per 6", although one of the angle plates is pretty good. Need to get 5 times better than that.

Regards
Ray

[Dave J]

The easiest way to make a cylinder square is on the lathe. As long as your lathe will turn parallel over about 200mm it should be fine.

Dave

[RayG]

The easiest way to make a cylinder square is on the lathe. As long as your lathe will turn parallel over about 200mm it should be fine.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes, that's what I've done, the headstock was off parallel to the ways by 0.08mm (3 thou) over 150mm, and I've got it back to better than 0.02mm (0.7thou), It's tricky to get better, just as you tighten the last two hex bolts at the front of the headstock everything moves..

Having moved it I'll now need to re-align the tailstock, but not today!

To finish the last 0.01 or so, I've been lapping with diamond paste against surface ground reference plate. It won't be anywhere near as good as a commercial one, but I think that with a bit of fiddling I can calibrate it to do what I want..

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Ray,
"Nothing is straight, nothing is flat, nothing is square" That's what my father always says about wood work in houses. Our tools may be different but it still applies lol

Something to be said for my cheap mics then, they "only" go to 0.01mm, if its not there I can't read it.
Surely a lazers straightest would depend on the local gravity? ;)
I was just wondering about your 10thou tilt idea and if you had a cunning plan find "that one spot"(one of the two).

I've ordered some diamond paste, be interesting to see how good(or not) it is.

Stuart

[Stustoys]

Ray,
How long is your cylinder?
What Dia?
You aren't using tail stock?

Stuart

[RayG]

Ray,
Surely a lazers straightest would depend on the local gravity? ;)
Stuart

I actually wrote that, "depending on local space-time curvature due to gravity", and then deleted it, and re-wrote it as, "pretty straight", of course if you had a "really" heavy mill or lathe....



I was just wondering about your 10thou tilt idea and if you had a cunning plan find "that one spot"(one of the two).
Stuart

Yes, there is a cunning plan. (not involving turnips)

If it works I'll post it, if not, may we never mention it again.

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

Ray,
How long is your cylinder?
What Dia?
You aren't using tail stock?

Stuart


Hi Stuart,

Not very big, 150 or so, 52.34 +-0.01 diameter 4140 Steel Tube, If I did it again, I would take the time to set it up to turn between centers, I didn't use the tailstock, I don't have a big enough live center. In any event, the final passes need to be really light to minimize deflection.

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

I have a brand new in box Sandvik Coromant carbide scraper for sale if anyone is interested. $120.00 + post.

bugga....why didnt you ask me earlier Greg
I ordered three different sizes from Andersons' last friday...with a brayer and a couple spare carbides...I coudnt find Sandvicks on the net anywhere

when I get a surface plate I just need to figure out how to use them....

[eskimo]

Done. If anyone else wants one please let me know as I may be able to get more at that price.

Greg

double bugga.......went back to the thread and then read this.......aghhhh...its only money...wont be able to use it in heaven/hell..or where ever I end up...swmbo will make sure of that:D

[eskimo]

PS that el-cheapo surface plate is grade 00, 2.2 um flatness.

what el-cheapo surface plate

[Pete F]

Ray how are you measuring the Squareness of the cylindrical square? I'm a little puzzled by your goal of 0.01 mm as that's not a measure of angle (ie 90 degrees), do you mean 0.01 mm in 150 mm or however long your square will be?

I'm meaning to make up a cylindrical square myself, but don't think my lathe is capable of sufficient accuracy. It cuts quite accurately for general turning, but this is a whole different level of accuracy.

Pete

[RayG]

Hi Pete,

I'll start a new thread tonight, rather than further hijack the scraping thread.

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

At a local swap metal a few years back, a bloke had on offer a pair of these cast iron plates (boxes). They were from the closed down pattern shop at Chamberlain John Deere. He was asking twenty bucks each or the pair for thirty :o. I bought one along with a bunch of small machinist jacks. It measures 450 x 250 x 115. The surface looks fly cut. It has served me well for marking out, given that nothing I have done so far has called for extreme accuracy. To elevate the plate to another level by means of hand scraping necessitates the acquisition of an accurate master but when I read about camelbacks, if one was to be used as a master, I find that these require accurate scraping. Sounds a bit like tail chasing.

What's the answer?

BT

[Stustoys]

BT,
Are you sure that its flycut and not ground?
Those marks don't seem to be traveling in a straight line. Which would suggest to me something more like a vertical spindle surface grinder?
I think it would be fair to say(and I hope Greg will correct me if I have this backwards) camelbacks are used to transfer the flatness of your master to your work piece and would only be used when spotting the work piece on the master wasn't possible or convenient.

Ray, I had be typing the same thing.
Stuart

[Greg Q]

Fellas here's the reply I got regarding larger granite plates.

800x500x130mm ##$720+gst
1000x630x100mm #$890+gst
1000x630x150mm #$970+gst

Prices don't include local freight.

[eskimo]

Fellas here's the reply I got regarding larger granite plates.

800x500x130mm ##$720+gst
1000x630x100mm #$890+gst
1000x630x150mm #$970+gst

Prices don't include local freight.

mmm? I'm interested

[Greg Q]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Those prices were forwarded to me from Measuring Tools, Cutting Tools, Engineering Tools (http://www.toolingonline.com.au) that RC linked. I posted that on the road from my phone, hence the short message

Here's the whole email:


Hello Greg,

Just getting back to you in regard to the granite surface plates.

800x500x130mm $720+gst
1000x630x100mm $890+gst
1000x630x150mm $970+gst

If you want one in about a month let me know ASAP and I'll try get it on
my next shipment. Otherwise the wait will be longer.

These prices also don't include freight cost from me to you. This will
depend on your location and what size you go for. Are you in Melbourne or
somewhere else?

Regards

Ariel

[.RC.]

The 1000 X 630 X 150 price is $100 less then I paid for mine..

[eskimo]

I posted that on the road from my phone,


you are a technological guru...:wink:

why would one get the 150mm over the 100mm thickness plate?..less prone to twist/warp etc?

[Anorak Bob]

BT,
Are you sure that its flycut and not ground?
Those marks don't seem to be traveling in a straight line. Which would suggest to me something more like a vertical spindle surface grinder?
I think it would be fair to say(and I hope Greg will correct me if I have this backwards) camelbacks are used to transfer the flatness of your master to your work piece and would only be used when spotting the work piece on the master wasn't possible or convenient.

Ray, I had be typing the same thing.
Stuart

I don't know Stu. The surface feels smooth. I may be wrong but if the thing was used in a pattern shop, absolute accuracy most probably wasn't a requirement. I've got no way of checking the flatness of the surface.

BT

[azzrock]

After getting distracted from something else on the spindle video thread I thought I'd start a new thread here. Some photos below of a triplet of scrapers. Top is a Sandvik Coromant carbide scraper sporting a replacement handle made from a pad saw. Below it a file-sized piece of CRS with a carbide tip brazed on-I bought it from Forrest Addy when I took the scraping class in Seattle a couple of years ago. The bottom one is made from an alloy handled screwdriver I bought at a flea market. a 12mm carbide tip is brazed on and rounded to a small radius for very fine work.

The Biax power scraper can be seen dangling from its tool balancer which I find a must for prolonged sessions.

The granite plate with a couple of drops of red dye spread with a printer's brayer. Its important to be able to see the pattern through the dye. This much will last a couple of hours of constant spotting.

I bought the red dye from Forrest too.

The tools are resting on the cast iron plate I'm scraping. You can see the pattern left after the last scraping cycle. I stoned off the surface with a diamond stone using a very heavy hand-much more than used when you approach a flat condition. This piece is still very hollow in the middle which you'd expect after years of use in a shop. (And moving with age)

Greg

hi greg
there were two things that have really grabbed my attention
in one of your photos there is what looks like a pneumatic scraper.
i must of led a more sheltered life than i thought. whats it like to use.
the other is. you went to america to study scraping.
that's simply amazing.
this raises so many questions. like i wonder what forrest andy would think
of these scraping machines. is forrest a normal type name in the us. if not
i keep thinking that shorly he lives in a cave. if not a cave then under a big marking out table.
i hope you dont mind me making these comments because your post is very interesting.
thanks aaron

[Greg Q]

you are a technological guru...:wink:

why would one get the 150mm over the 100mm thickness plate?..less prone to twist/warp etc?

Oh yeah, they call me Mr. Wizard. :rolleyes:

I have to borrow my friend's son to program my VCR. Or at least I think its a VCR. It takes these shiny drink coasters as food and somehow makes music and films.

The surface plate specification calls for 150mm thick in that size.

Greg

[Greg Q]

hi greg
there were two things that have really grabbed my attention
in one of your photos there is what looks like a pneumatic scraper.
i must of led a more sheltered life than i thought. whats it like to use.
the other is. you went to america to study scraping.
that's simply amazing.
this raises so many questions. like i wonder what forrest andy would think
of these scraping machines. is forrest a normal type name in the us. if not
i keep thinking that shorly he lives in a cave. if not a cave then under a big marking out table.
i hope you dont mind me making these comments because your post is very interesting.
thanks aaron

That scraper is an electric one that I bought on ebay (badly listed, so it was very cheap). I refurbed it and had it re-wound 240v, that's why it looks good.). They are great for roughing to flat quickly, and if you add a variable speed controller can be used for very fine work too. However they can also put deep scratches if you aren't careful.

Forrest was I think a common name back in the day. He is a big guy, and bearded. He's a polymath though-not exactly a cave dweller. He recommends the Biax highly.

As for going to the US: I had a free ticket and a free place to stay, so it was cheaper than going across town!

Greg

[azzrock]

cool thanks for the reply. your trip would of been great. this really goes to show the depth of knowledge
floating around this site. were there other students of scraping there or was it awas this a 1 on 1 type of training set up. if you don't mind me asking what do you do for a living

[eskimo]

800x500x130mm $720+gst
1000x630x100mm $890+gst
1000x630x150mm $970+gst



Have a look in the attached pdf
at $1.30 exchange rate they are cheap

just rang and the price is still current...wonder it they charge for freight?

[Greg Q]

Have a look in the attached pdf
at $1.30 exchange rate they are cheap

just rang and the price is still current...wonder it they charge for freight?

Dat's cheap all right. But the same old run-around with shipping via sea from NZ. I imagine the price gap would close quickly.

Greg

[Greg Q]

cool thanks for the reply. your trip would of been great. this really goes to show the depth of knowledge
floating around this site. were there other students of scraping there or was it awas this a 1 on 1 type of training set up. if you don't mind me asking what do you do for a living


No, this was a group of about thirty guys and girls from the western side of North America and me. It was organised by a guy in Seattle and is becoming an annual event. Look for details under 'scrapefest' on Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com)

It was held in the workshop of the local TAFE's welding school. Everyone had a vise at one of four or five benches, and we scraped from 8 to 5 Sat and Sunday. There was also an opportunity to use on of the shop's big bandsaws. I bought some dura-bar cast iron blanks from Forrest and sawed them into dovetail spotting master shapes for later scraping.

The class was tiring and good fun. You can get any basic technique from a book or internet tutorial, but doing it with teachers is so much faster. A big part of the class for me was the metrology and survey aspects. If I go back for the intermediate class it will be for those skills alone.

My avatar sums up what I do for a crust, only the planes that I fly now are less fun.

[eskimo]

Dat's cheap all right. But the same old run-around with shipping via sea from NZ. I imagine the price gap would close quickly.

Greg

is AU$932.00 delivered (air) for the 36x24 too dear?

[Anorak Bob]

No, this was a group of about thirty guys and girls from the western side of North America and me. It was organised by a guy in Seattle and is becoming an annual event. Look for details under 'scrapefest' on Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com)

It was held in the workshop of the local TAFE's welding school. Everyone had a vise at one of four or five benches, and we scraped from 8 to 5 Sat and Sunday. There was also an opportunity to use on of the shop's big bandsaws. I bought some dura-bar cast iron blanks from Forrest and sawed them into dovetail spotting master shapes for later scraping.

The class was tiring and good fun. You can get any basic technique from a book or internet tutorial, but doing it with teachers is so much faster. A big part of the class for me was the metrology and survey aspects. If I go back for the intermediate class it will be for those skills alone.

My avatar sums up what I do for a crust, only the planes that I fly now are less fun.

Ken's always telling the rest of us how big your shop is. Big enough for you to host and conduct a scraping show and tell?

I'll fly over.

BT

[Greg Q]

I put special stuff in Ken's coffee when he comes over that makes my shop look so big. I bought it from Lewis Carroll. Same stuff I used to give to the ladies. :oo:

There is a machinery rebuilder here whom I have yet to meet despite his invitation. I want to sound him out about doing just such a class here in Melbourne. All we would need is about six to ten guys I reckon.

I have a two car garage which is too small for that many people I think, unless I evict all the contents and just set up two workbenches with vises. One surface plate is enough for that small of a class. The simplest thing like cast iron bars may be the hardest thing to get.

Greg

[neksmerj]

Ah ha, now the truth comes out, so it was the home roasted roasted coffee eh? And I thought it was just the intoxication of your presence. I often wondered why it took 30 minutes with instrument approach to your place, and only 3 minutes to get back home.

Greg is of course being modest, so I won't spoil the dream. With the Robo R44 and Cessna wheeled out, there'd be plenty of room. There is of course another vast space at the establishment, occupied by a quilting machine of little interest to us blokes.

A huge fight would of course ensue if the boss had her machine touched, so that's out.

AB, when you fly over, please wrap the finished cast iron planes in tissue paper, to prevent damage. Greg and I always appreciate Westerner's bearing gifts with sharp blades.

Time for another coffee!

Ken

[harty69]

oooh a class count me in on that for sure Greg :2tsup:
might stay away from the coffee though
had the nice post man turn up today with a present now all I need to do is find something to wreck i mean scrape

cheers
Harty

[Greg Q]

Since I posted this afternoon I learned that I have been awarded a new job in SYD starting in October. I will have to get busy trying to get a million new facts to stick to what I laughingly call "my mind". Anything I hoped to do is now on hold until March 2012 unless (and this is likely) I can get someone else to pick up the ball. I can attend with supplies and scrapers etc, and teach, but I cannot do much organising I don't reckon.

Stay tuned...I'm going to try to get this thread wrapped up with some pointers, tips and suggestions before it all gets weird.

GQ (I went to school on the short bus. The next 6-8 months are going to be more of the same)

[.RC.]

Since I posted this afternoon I learned that I have been awarded a new job in SYD starting in October. I will have to get busy trying to get a million new facts to stick to what I laughingly call "my mind".

I don't think the job of hostie is going to need too much knowledge Greg..:D:D

[Greg Q]

I was trying to keep the gender re-assignment a secret RC! I am going to be keeping Pete F. company on his ride for awhile. That hostie gig is easy...a little eye lash batting, a little wiggle, some quality time in the first class loo and whamo! you're on Four Corners:rolleyes: I better send this before the ex-hostie wife sees this:wink:

[C-47]

Greg,
Is that a big bird assignment with 4 air movers. Alan.

[Greg Q]

No, I downbid for the big thang, and was half expecting to get it, but the new job is my current rank on the 330. I'm astonished that it happened this year, and still parsing out the possibilities and trying to map out the way between now and Oct when I start. Some juggling, but I am so looking forward to a new chapter after 1/4 century on the same type.:2tsup:

[Greg Q]

is AU$932.00 delivered (air) for the 36x24 too dear?

I'm sorry that I missed this earlier...it's been a busy day. I was just looking over the information on the Starrett site regarding the information on the US specification for granite surface plates. In the 24" X 36" size there is a 4" thick version, but it has the lowest vertical loading category. Most (if not all) plates that size that I have seen are 6" thick..

I don't yet have a grip on how much if any a 4" thick plate would deflect in a home shop environment. My suspicion is that in most things we can get away with a notch lighter stuff than a pro shop since we are a: careful and b: Paying the bills and c: lacking in devil-may-care users like a pro shop.

All of the above considered, I am personally thinking the 800 X 500 plate would suit me perfectly as I listed above for $720 + GST

[RayG]

To go with that new granite surface plate, you need a place to put it... I've been working on this today..

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/DSCN0475.JPG

The design is modelled off the Mitutoyo tables. The surface plate is only supported at three levelling points, the two at the front and the center one at the back, the other two at the back are to stop the plate from rocking. The support points are at the 20% points as recommended by Starret. Although they also recommend the support points should be the same as the support points when the plate was calibrated.

The rest of the bench is for other stuff, the Avery hardness tester, and some cupboard space underneath for related junk.

Josh has the design drawn up in Solid works, first time we are going direct from solid works to finished article. The legs are 65x65x3 SHS

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Great work Ray, That sheds filling up fast!
Stuart

[Greg Q]

Ah yeah, that's the other thing. Useful sizes are heavy and need some serious support. I was planning (without really doing the math) on perching a larger plate on top of my mill/lathe tooling cart. I am afraid that I'm going to have to re-engineer that with some larger uprights to house the 150 kg or so of a larger plate. Bummer.

[Dave J]

Like Stuart said, nice work and I agree that shed is filling up fast.

Dave

[.RC.]

Although they also recommend the support points should be the same as the support points when the plate was calibrated.




The plate should be marked where the three points are..

Here is the stand I made... I can move it around with the pallet jack

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/platestand002Custom.jpg

[RayG]

I looked carefully at the base of the granite surface plate in different lighting and I can't see any indications of support points. Makes you wonder if the calibration is "real".

Nice idea, having a table with forklift access, makes sense seeing how much it would weigh, and it's not the sort of thing you would want on wheels. I assume the levelling screws are tapped into the channel to lift the plate slightly off the angle iron sides?

Is that yet another camel back, or is it the same one that was in the shaper electrical wiring thread but before it was painted?

Hi Dave, Stuart,

Thanks for the comments, just to set your mind at ease, there is still a few feet of space left... still room for a shaper..

Regards
Ray

[Dave J]

With your luck lately, I can just see it now, you go and have a look at a really nice hardly used shaper, fully equipped with every accessory and the guy just gives to you, or wants scrap value. LOL

Seriously though,
Those strait edges that RC has can be bought through PM of a guy that makes them. I think I remember the postage was around $200 so it comes to about $350 all up for one. He also has 2 sizes of them.

Dave

[Greg Q]

There is something similar and possibly better in SA listed tonight on another popular site which should ignyte some interest. No affiliation:D

[Greg Q]

With your luck lately, I can just see it now, you go and have a look at a really nice hardly used shaper, fully equipped with every accessory and the guy just gives to you, or wants scrap value. LOL

Seriously though,
Those strait edges that RC has can be bought through PM of a guy that makes them. I think I remember the postage was around $200 so it comes to about $350 all up for one. He also has 2 sizes of them.

Dave

I have both of those too. The seller is Craig Donges, but I don't think he frequents PM any more. You could get it shipped via USA Address & Mail Forwarding (http://www.shipito.com) for less.

If I didn't need the dovetail spotting, and had a large enough granite plate, I'd get the 36" one. You could always make a dovetail spotting tool later. The larger camelback has provision for fitting wood handles which are really important to minimize heat distortion.

GQ

[.RC.]

I looked carefully at the base of the granite surface plate in different lighting and I can't see any indications of support points. Makes you wonder if the calibration is "real".

Nice idea, having a table with forklift access, makes sense seeing how much it would weigh, and it's not the sort of thing you would want on wheels. I assume the levelling screws are tapped into the channel to lift the plate slightly off the angle iron sides?

Is that yet another camel back, or is it the same one that was in the shaper electrical wiring thread but before it was painted?




There are no levelling screws on the stand.. It just sits on three 100mm square pads with a bit of rubber between the steel and the plate.

The angle you see is just there for protection and safety... I did not know how stable it would be with it sitting on the three pads but it is solid as a rock.. It is after all 230kg..

The camel back is the same.. I only own 2... An 18" and the 36".

Bit of a thread here for anyone interested

TC grinder rebuild - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=47202)

[harty69]

Hi RC

I have been keeping a close eye on that thread very interesting and informative so far
I have a Russian copy of a Cincinnati no 2 that i plan to restore to its former cold war glory soon bloody heavy things they are too

cheers
Harty