Scraping Class in Melbourne

[Machtool]

Seems they let anyone in here. For those that don’t know me, my name is Phil. And I’m a self employed service engineer here in Melbourne. I’ve spent a few hours over the past few days reading threw this thread from end to end.

I’m glad I found this place, where most of you Aussies congregate. Its like a golf club for guys with a metal addiction. Far less noise here. It seems I know many of you all ready from other forums. R.C, Pete F, etc. For those I don’t know yet, G’day.

I actually caught up in person with Greg Q & Joe Hovel on Wednesday afternoon, here in my factory. And that was a pleasure.

We are toying with the thought of trying to put together a scraping class, similar to the ones held in the States. Very infant at this stage. And I wouldn’t get any ones hopes up just yet.

I’d be happy to host it here. I can organize one of the old masters, that still scraps 50 hours a week, to conduct it.

And I’ve done a lot of it over the years, and worked with all the past scraping hands. I’m happy to help out and cook the barbeque.

I have any amount of equipment here, and space isn’t a problem, for 6 – 8 blokes over a weekend. It was Joe’s idea, so I’m nominating him as the steward of the ship.

If you have any interest, address them to Joe, and I’ll just work in with him and Greg, to see what we can come up with. While we kick a few ideas around, for the next week or so, if we could contain it here, without letting it slip on to HSM or P.M

Best regards.

Phil Fehring.

[Pete F]

It seems I know many of you all ready from other forums. R.C, Pete F, etc. For those I don’t know yet, G’day.

Best regards.

Phil Fehring.

Hey Phil, don't worry, they're all much nicer than me :wink:

Welcome to the madness!

Pete

[.RC.]

I have sent a PM to Joe expressing my interest in attending the scraping class should it eventuate...

It would mean a trip on one of those new fangled aeroplane things, but I think I heard they are safeish these days, depending on the pilot...

[Pete F]

I have sent a PM to Joe expressing my interest in attending the scraping class should it eventuate...

It would mean a trip on one of those new fangled aeroplane things, but I think I heard they are safeish these days, depending on the pilot...

I hear Tiger have some cheap fares going at the moment :p

[jhovel]

OK guys, seeing that Phil himself let the cat out of the bag, I'll admit to "hassling" him :) Phil is actually a "master scraper" himself, but can't see himself as a teacher - despite the heap of things Greg and I learnt just chatting and watching him work and looking at his machines...
I also put up some unauthorised fliers at the Bendigo Model Engineers Expo looking for expressions of interest. Only one response from that so far.
I don't think we'll have any trouble getting a class of enthusiasts together in Melbourne.
I'll keep working at it.
Cheers,
Joe

[Pete F]

Ok Joe, you can add my name to the list, however unfortunately as a very unreliable candidate as I'm not at all sure what I'm doing with work and probably won't right up until the day prior. But definitely keen if that's any help.

Pete

[Greg Q]

I'm on the road at the moment so I'll keep this brief. Phil was a generous host to Joe and I the other day. As Joe says, we learned a lot from him. Phil has years of experience as a builder and rebuilder of machine tools, so he has already nutted out the solutions to survey and geometric accuracy.

He is the real deal.

I hope that we can make this class happen...I think there's enough guys on this thread alone to make it worthwhile.

Greg...with a big wet public thanks to Phil (and Joe for being the spark plug in making it happen).

[Bryan]

A few things would have to line up, but put me on the 'definitely interested' list.

[Anorak Bob]

I'll fly over.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi Phil, Welcome.

Joe, I'd like to be on the list.
Thanks

Stuart

[jhovel]

OK guys.
It's great to see that we can fill one class straight-off!

So we don't get ahead of ourselves:
No dates have been considered yet! The 'Master' Phil mentioned has not agreed to run the course yet...
Unlike many other training programs, a scraping class will need a lot of organisation, for example: supplies which are not easily available. E.g. suitable cast iron pieces with know qualities. We may have to get them cast or or cut from scrap. To enable everyone to get the most useful experience, they will also have to be machined - maybe ground. Then we need to have a means to hold them - making wooden work bases with slats that can be clamped to work benches in Phil's shop. Maybe making some hand scrapers - for those who don't yet have any or want to see what's around before buying or making their own. We only know of two commercial electric scrapers plus my home-made one. No way are all participants able to get a lot out of the class without at least using a machine for some of the time. We would also have decent reference notes for participants to take away to refer to later.
Next comes some sussing out of accommodation for participants from outside of town (including me). We need to factor into the program some food and refreshment issues (at the very least storage) and something sensible but enjoyable to do after the first day's class - maybe a factory visit (a beer factory maybe? :) ).
As you can see, this is going to take more than a month or two to organise. We are all working full-time in our 'normal' lives on the side... :)
I would not expect this class to get off the ground before September or October this year at the earliest.
Hope that helps - so noone gets any ideas of "coming over" next weekend :)
Cheers,
Joe

[neksmerj]

I'm in.

I have nothing to scrape at present, but would like to increase my skills.

If nothing else, Greg's coffee is to die for.

Ken

[Anorak Bob]

I'm in no rush Joe. The later the better. I'll be in Germany and France all of October. If I happen to miss the fun and games, I'll fly over another time and one of you blokes can give me one on one tuition. :;

BT

[.RC.]

I have some ideas I can help with... I cannot do a lot being so far away though....

[Stustoys]

+1 Yes yes, Greg is on coffee.

Let us know if there is anything we can help with Joe

Stuart

[harty69]

fantastic
+1 for the course as well

I would be glad to help out with organizing where i can
I can print and bind the reference material for starters

cheers
Harty

[Bryan]

I wonder if Mr 4-6-4 could be encouraged to get his parallel casting project moving? They could make nice small class projects, including some alignment work, which could be continued later at home.

Edit: The thread is here: arno milling machine (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/arno-milling-machine-135428/)

[C-47]

Another +1 from the West depending on actual dates. Also welcome to Phil (machtool). Alan.

[eskimo]

pencil my name in

[Machtool]

Wow, Thanks for the welcome guys. Lots of good interest there. And much to digest all ready. I have numerous thoughts already and I’ll address them in no particular order.

Firstly, are you guys happy to continue you the discussion in this thread, or start another? I was just thinking that it might water down what’s already been a good discussion. I’m not fussed either way. I’ll follow Joes lead on that.

I have sent a PM to Joe expressing my interest in attending the scraping class should it eventuate..I was hoping you would be in. It will be good to catch up finally. I’ll put a beer in the fridge. That’s the primary reason for coming up with a date. So you and the Perth guys can get early discount airfares.

Phil is actually a "master scraper" himself, but can't see himself as a teacher I’m not a master of anything, out of reverence to some of the old masters. I need to put in another 10 years yet.

It occurred to me, after speaking with you and Greg on Wednesday, I could probably impart a bit of knowledge off. I’ve trained plenty of apprentices. You guys ought to be a walk in the park, as you have interest and done plenty of home work.

So I could do it myself, but why bother, when I can connect you guys with Marko. I’ll help out and translate his jokes for you. He’s probably forgotten more about scraping then I’ve picked up. He will take on Job’s I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole. Like 10m planer tables, double Vee way, and all by hand.

I’m amassed I didn’t mention this on Wednesday. I spoke with Marko on Tuesday, onsite in Castlemaine. I threw those figures at him you mentioned in an Email. He’s in. Not a problem to do a Saturday / Sunday. Another reason to lock in a date. He’s got a few weeks up in Castlemaine, on that planner I’ll be helping him with, and a few weeks in Perth for Okuma coming up.


however unfortunately as a very unreliable candidate as I'm not at all sure what I'm doing with work and probably won't right up until the day prior.We can work around that, one or two people that might have conflicting work commitments, won’t put a dint in the numbers, but I hope you can make it. I mentioned yesterday 6-8 blokes, I can probably accommodate more say 10 before it got too crowded. Maybe plan for that many, and if one or two drop out, it will still work.


I'll fly over.G’day Bob. This table of yours that I read about back 10 pages ago. I’ll throw an idea out. Whilst I think that if Steve at Hurcus could grind that for you @ $800, that’s a screaming good price. If you could get that over to me before the class, I can machine it for you, then you scrap it in the class, then take it back as use it as the master for the saddle.

There’s a transport Mob I use to the West called BoHaul Express. The Melbourne depot is just to the North of me here. (10 miles). There reasonable on something that size.


If nothing else, Greg's coffee is to die for. KenWell that seems to be settled then. If there’s one thing that’s written in stone at this stage. Greg’s in charge of the coffee.


I wonder if Mr 4-6-4 could be encouraged to get his parallel casting project moving? Something like that would be perfect, and solves getting the material. It was looking like we might have to bring in 20lb boxes of Durabar. I’d also like a set of those regardless. I can help with machining there also.


Another +1 from the West depending on actual dates. Also welcome to Phil (machtool). Alan.Would you be the Alan I meet over in Perth a few years ago? I was over there installing a Laser Cutter. It would have been Anzac / Easter time 2007 or 2008. I remember going out to dinner with an Alan, and showing him that machine. Going by your handle, that Alan was also in Aviation.

We only know of two commercial electric scrapers plus my home-made one If I call in a few favours, I can lay my hands on 3 other Biax scapers, plus my Renz, Marko has 2 Biax scrapers, plus a half moon, plus Greg’s & Richards Biax's. I make that 9 machines.

I hope I don’t get burgled that weekend, that’s $30k’s worth of machines. Security here is good, I’ve never been done over.

Maybe making some hand scrapersI have oxy acetylene & silver solder here. I can scrounge up some more blanks. We probably wouldn’t what to use up too much time on that.

Next comes some sussing out of accommodation for participants from outside of town (including me).For those of you that don’t know, I’m in Thomastown. There’s one of those Formula1 hotels up on Sydney Road in Fawkner, That would be cheap and only 4 miles west from here, two exits from here on the ring road.

There’s a Best Western on Mahonies Road, about 2 miles from here. That’s nicer. I’ve put clients in it before. Its right across the road from the Excelsior Hotel / Pub, they have units also. It got spruced up a few years back when the pokies went in. Foods good there, although it has a late licence, so it might not be quiet. I’ve never seen the rooms there.

We need to factor into the program some food and refreshment issuesI can take care of the daily stuff. Toasted ham, cheese, tomato sandwiches for morning tea. We do a sausage sizzle here every Saturday, with the shop fitter guys from next door and the toolmaker on the other side of me.

I’m actually a frustrated chef. I have a collection of 4 slow cookers. For the Sunday I might run up a batch of Moroccan lambs shanks with couscous. I do that 3 – 4 times over the winter, for the guys in the street here.

That’s way too much for now.

Regards Phil.

[Pete F]

Firstly, are you guys happy to continue you the discussion in this thread, or start another? I was just thinking that it might water down what’s already been a good discussion. I’m not fussed either way. I’ll follow Joes lead on that.

I think it's worth a new thread with the appropriate title. Sometimes people who would otherwise be keen see a thread of 10 pages and don't bother looking at it. The opportunity of any sort of Master Class in this field doesn't come up too often so I think it's too valuable to just get lost in the noise.

My 2 cents anyway but I'm sure the moderators could cut and paste all the relevant posts into a new thread without too much effort.

Pete

Edit: As far as things to actually scrape, a while ago a group of us arranged to bring in some 18 and 36 inch camelback castings. I'm very keen to scrape my 36" in a situation like this as it's longer than my surface plate. It's possible that the smaller 18" castings are light enough to be able to realistically post out from the US, however I'm not sure exactly how much they weigh. If so it could provide very suitable material while leaving the person with a very useful workshop tool at the end of the weekend.

[Machtool]

I'm very keen to scrape my 36" in a situation like this as it's longer than my surface plate. Hey Pete.
I have a 5’ x 3’ Granite table, as well as 4’ 6” and 6 foot master straight edges here. Plus master squares through to 6 foot high. So doing 36” long wouldn’t be a problem. Its a lot of work to try and get done over 2 days. But doable especially if you needed a hand. Marko or I could hammer that into shape in a few hours using a machine, leaving you to tickle it up.

Phil.

[Pete F]

Hey Phil, that would be great! However I will of course arrange details closer to the event. I agree it's probably too much for a beginner to do in one weekend, but I'm guessing it would depend on just how accurate it is to begin with. I was more trying to suggest the little 18" edges for other members who may be looking for something to scrape as I would think they would be just about the perfect size to do in a weekend and for those coming from interstate, small enough to be able to fit into checked baggage.

Maybe this topic will be split off from this thread, so on another point. What are your thoughts on scraping after something has been ground. I've never done this myself but have read that it's more difficult than a part that hasn't been ground. Is there any truth in this and if so what makes it so? If it's cast iron I can't imagine there's any significant hardening, so maybe it's because the surface is not conducive to picking up the blue properly????

Pete

[Machtool]

Pete.

I'll get back to you on Monday about that.. I need to get home. I seldom log in over the weekends after I get out of here by 4 or 5 on Saturday Arvo. . But in short, given the choice between ground or milled, I’d take ground up first every time.

Phil.

[.RC.]

I was chatting to Joe about the 1,2,3 blocks that Forrest uses in his class.. From what I understand he starts with a piece of Durabar cast iron... AFAIK it is the same as the Flocast material produced locally in Melbourne... However Flocast in Melbourne only used to stock 80 X 55 and 80 X 30 mm in the rectangular sizes

Anyway I believe the top is scraped first, then using a master square an edge is scraped.. Then the piece is sawed in half to make two blocks... Forrest says this is about as far as they usually get in a class..

As the student then has two scraped surfaces perpendicular to each other they can use that as a master square at home to make the mating block, then use that to finish off the original block.

[Greg Q]

Some thoughts in no particular order after a very long day:

If we cannot get a continuous cast bar like dura bar I can get some shipped, but it would have to get under way this week to be here by Sept.

Forrest uses those bars because they are high quality and free of voids (and casting stresses for the most part). They are also cheap.

If we could get some bars here in 80 X 30 then perhaps the blanks could be milled to 75.2 X 25.2 to allow the scrapers to finish with a metric 1-2-3 block

The scraping class in Seattle that I attended was well organised, and the facilities were great. They had benches to which the attendees mounted vises to hold the work pieces. I could supply three vises, maybe more if ebay coughs up some good ones. I can also bring another plate if its required, and blue.

Making up scrapers is something that I or someone else can do in the weeks prior to the class. I think supplying them on a cost basis works for everyone?

The Seattle class had thirty students and two teachers. Mostly the teachers were there to correct technique mistakes for the students and to provide advice.

Once the students got into the zen state of scraping the little blue marks the focus turned to the methods of measuring for square and dimension. There wasn't enough time to discuss how to survey machines nor how to measure wear and correct for same. If we had time on this course even a glimpse into the pro methods would be a huge head start.

Greg

[Greg Q]

...and I'm on coffee. Roger.

I might have to get Pete F to help roast beans prior to the day, but I can definitely bring my grinder, fresh roasted exotic beans and coffee maker.

GQ

[mmgarwood]

Would be interested in the class too, depending on....

I can help Greg with the roasting.

[jhovel]

Hi Machtool (Phil),
looks like you have been caught up in this hook, line and sinker after all! :)
I'm very glad. Thank you for your enthusiasm!
Looks like you have started addressing some of the parts of the class that daunted me a bit.
Can I suggest a tentative date - just to see how that fits in with everyone?
Let's start with October 29 & 30. That's far enough out to start negotiating and preparing materials.
How does that fit with all the expressions of interest so far?
Cheers,
Joe

[mmgarwood]

edited

[jhovel]

Just a quick tally:
The following people have asked for their names to be put on the list.
Many have contacted me by PM. Aynone who hasn't given me thier e-mail address, please do so. I would also appreciate if you would let me know where you are - or rather which city you'd be coming from to attend. Gives me an initial sense of travellers vs. locals etc...
Greg Q
jhovel
mmgarwood
.RC.
Pete F
eskimo
C-47
Bryan
harty69
Stustoys
Anorak Bob
neksmerj
Ropetangler
PDW
That's 14 of us. I suspect that might be getting close to the practical limit for now -allowing for a couple of people who can't make it when we finalise dates.
Cheers,
Joe

[jhovel]

I've just left a message for Neil - our forum's Senior Administrator - to split this thread and move all messages from #276 onwards to a new once called "Scraping Class in Melbourne".
Maybe until this is done, we could refrain from adding posts not directly related to the class in this thread? If you want to post something otherwise scaping related none-the-less (and I'm about to), please start a new thread and just put a link here. Once the split has happened, we can continue this here thread as it was intended by Greg Q.
OK?
Cheers,
Joe

[Pete F]

...and I'm on coffee. Roger.

I might have to get Pete F to help roast beans prior to the day, but I can definitely bring my grinder, fresh roasted exotic beans and coffee maker.

GQ

Hell no, I'll be critiquing how the new roaster is going ;) NOW the pressure is on :p Whenever I'm in Singapore I call into a roaster I know and he drags out different exotic beans he wants me to try. One time I had so many espressos I left there literally shaking :oo:. I'm expecting you to provide the entire class with the same feeling on this weekend Greg :p

Pete

[PDW]

I have sent a PM to Joe expressing my interest in attending the scraping class should it eventuate...

It would mean a trip on one of those new fangled aeroplane things, but I think I heard they are safeish these days, depending on the pilot...

If I could fly into Rocky, you can (probably) fly out. Nice drive anyway, probably only take you 4 days.

I'd be in a scraping workshop as well. Easy to nick up from Hobart. In fact I'll be in Melbourne the week after next, heading back south from Sydney to do my bit for the old iron imbalance in Tasmania. Good thing I brought the turbo diesel flat tray with me because it's going back full.

PDW

[jhovel]

Scraping practice of today... (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/scraping-practice-137969/#post1344931)
Joe

[Anorak Bob]

Hi Machtool (Phil),
looks like you have been caught up in this hook, line and sinker after all! :)
I'm very glad. Thank you for your enthusiasm!
Looks like you have started addressing some of the parts of the class that daunted me a bit.
Can I suggest a tentative date - just to see how that fits in with everyone?
Let's start with October 29 & 30. That's far enough out to start negotiating and preparing materials.
How does that fit with all the expressions of interest so far?
Cheers,
Joe

Looks like someone else will have to take my place. I don't get back from Paris till the 12th of November. If the class is the success it should be, maybe you blokes will organise another. Otherwise I will have to lean on Alan "C-47" to provide me with a few pointers. If Alan is unable to attend, maybe one of you Melbournians can come to my rescue. I do have a reason to visit your city. My youngest daughter has lived there for four years. My eldest is heading over there to live in 2 weeks time.:no:

BT

[jhovel]

Don't give up that easy, Bob!
I'd be happy to postpone to November 19/20 - anyone got any thoughts about that? Or will that be getting a bit late in the year for others?
Joe

[C-47]

Bob, no matter how much you lean, it doesn't make up for fading brain cells.
Joe 19/20 Nov as good as any this far out. BT just needs time to recover, money wise, from all his wanderings. :D
Phil (machtool) you are correct, better memory on dates than I. Hope the machine you commissioned at the time is going well. Look forward to catching up again. Alan.

[Anorak Bob]

It's funny how things go. When I mentioned the possibility of attending a scraping class in Melbourne to my wife, her comment was simply " well I hope you are going to go".

If it does turn out that the weekend of the 19/20th suits all, I will simply extend my leave for a few days enabling me to catch up with my girls as well.

Phil's kind offer to machine my table ways to enable me the finish scrape them during the class, may sadly need to be turned down. Greg's view of what might be achievable over two days, the 1-2-3 block, might better suit my level of ability.

For me, the opportunity to catch up with you blokes ( and two daughters) will be the highlight of the trip.

Bob.

[Anorak Bob]

I don't know if people here are familiar with the Rivett 608 lathe. Attached are a photo of my current one and of the "new" one which I expect in a couple of months. As can be seen, the "new" one will probably need some scraping, to say the least. Maybe the real problem is too many lathes....:roll:


MM,

I've only ever seen photos of the 608. How about a new thread devoted to your lathes, with an abundance of photographs? I would love to see them.

Bob.

[Pete F]

Don't give up that easy, Bob!
I'd be happy to postpone to November 19/20 - anyone got any thoughts about that? Or will that be getting a bit late in the year for others?
Joe

Perfect for me as I should be on annual leave then.

Pete

[RayG]

Hi Joe,

Looks like the course is filled up, so put me on the reserves list if anyone drops out.

Thanks

Regards
Ray

[.RC.]

Here is something to get you in the mood.... Or chase you away....

I made this this afternoon while working on my TC grinder rebuild... I am finding this not very easy going at the moment due to inexperience and lack of knowledge... But I am getting there..

The cast iron on this TC grinder is much harder then other items I have scraped...Also there is no relief for this V... It ends abruptly..

So if you want to waste 4 minutes of your life.... download and watch this 23MB video file.. I am scraping pads that I make level with other pads, then they will be used as reference points to scrape the whole way.... That is the plan anyway....I am up to plan M so far.... :D:D

http://www.users.on.net/~rcre/hand_scraping.wmv (http://www.users.on.net/%7Ercre/hand_scraping.wmv)

[Stustoys]

RC,
You seem to be going at it pretty hard without checking. I assuming you know you have a long way to go? Or am I missing something?

Is there a reason you cant cut relief in the V?

When I read "Not very easy in this postition" at the start of the video I thought "why not move it then? lol Thats one heavy T&C grinder, got a rough number of its weight?

Stuart

[.RC.]

RC,
You seem to be going at it pretty hard without checking. I assuming you know you have a long way to go? Or am I missing something?



Yes.... The editing.. :)

There are about four different takes there, they blend in pretty well because of the way it was edited...


Is there a reason you cant cut relief in the V?

The mating part will nearly cover that entire V area... I could have done something, but I am nearly finished now.... Learning as I go...

The grinder weighs around the tonne when fully assembled...

[Stustoys]

Yes.... The editing.. :)
:doh:Yes that would explain it lol



The grinder weighs around the tonne when fully assembled...
Now thats a serious T&C grinder.

Thanks

Stuart

[Machtool]

I just got off the phone with Flocast. Despite what’s on there website. They keep absolutely bugger all Rectangular bar there now. Whatever they had they sold off several years ago. The guy told me they had just done stock take for the end of year and there’s none there, not even scrap’s. So we struck out there. He did suggest I try Global Metals. I’ll try them next.

In other news, Marko rang me out of the blue this morning, he only rings me when he wants something. Wanted to now how the planning was coming along. He sounded keen as mustard. Almost disappointed when I told him in probably wont be until November.
He’s coming to see me tomorrow on another matter, so I’ll talk to him some more then.

Phil.

[Machtool]

Global Metals has gotten back to me.

They have 108 x 31 here in Melbourne. I’m thinking that’s too slender.

They have 108 x 55mm in Perth. We can machine that down to 100 x 50mm or 2” x 4” x 6” long. That would be a nice size, some of you guys might think that’s large, but you need some surface area to get your teeth into.

So I think I’ve got a lead on some iron stock.

Regards Phil.

[PDW]

Global Metals has gotten back to me.

They have 108 x 31 here in Melbourne. I’m thinking that’s too slender.

They have 108 x 55mm in Perth. We can machine that down to 100 x 50mm or 2” x 4” x 6” long. That would be a nice size, some of you guys might think that’s large, but you need some surface area to get your teeth into.

So I think I’ve got a lead on some iron stock.

Regards Phil.

I've got about 2m of continuous cast 100mm dia round bar cast iron. Could cut some slices off of it. It's really nice stuff.

I have to talk to my local foundry guy when I get back to Hobart in August (little matter of collecting a pile of bronze porthole castings). I know I can get cast iron done. Not as nice as the durabar stuff I expect but still, possible to get in say 150x150x50 chunks, nice little surface plate size.

Also I've got a number of patterns for angle plates etc I made 20+ years ago, happy to see about getting castings done again from them. They're 100x100 and 150x150 IRC.

PDW

[Stustoys]

I was just in Bohler, they said ask Flocast. So thats not a lot of help.

Picked up a couple of XU1 sawsalls from bunnings today. wow they are loud!

Silly question. Would 2 x 3 x 6" blocks be more usefull than 2 x 4 x 6"? The 2" and 3" sides would match up with 1 x 2 x 3" blocks.(Iguess not or someone would be making them already)

Stuart

[Machtool]

Silly question. Would 2 x 3 x 6" blocks be more usefull than 2 x 4 x 6"? The 2" and 3" sides would match up with 1 x 2 x 3" blocks.

Stuart

2-4-6 is just a double sized 1-2-3. I like the idea of having a 4 inch wide face to start on, you need some area to work on and get a feel for flat.

And secondly, they were the only option’s, they only have those two sizes left. The 31mm wide one would end up like a 1 x 4 by what ever length we cut them at. Too slender to give you a good second face to work on.

I just got the quote back from them, and I nearly fell off my chair. By my back of the envelop calculating, a 150mm long cut section, will cost close to $40 per chunk. That’s my quoted price.

I figure everyone needs a pair of them, 2 pieces each. That’s $80 bucks just there.

I don’t expect we can do any better by getting Durabar out of the States.

I asked them to quote me on 4 length’s. They have them @ 1890 long. 4 length’s go 371 Kg’s, but the freight was good, $60 from Perth to here.

That’s good news for Bob & Alan. That’s 200 kilo’s each of Cast Iron, checked baggage you don’t have to bring over with you.:D

I can trim that order down to 3 length’s, but those prices are based on what I can get out of each length (12) at 150mm /6" long.

Phil.

[.RC.]

Hi Phil, I was thinking of getting a raw cast iron master square casting from the US and scraping that on the day... That would mean I would not need a block....

I was also thinking of doing a mock up V and flat way section to talk about how one goes about scraping that....

The squares look like this.. I think they are 12" a side.... I can pre-machine and scrape one side prior to coming to the class..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/square1.jpg

[mmgarwood]

There is a very good mob right close to me who do specialist castings. In the past, they specialized in aluminium bronze, and a few other non-ferrous alloys, but have joined forces with a small foundry in NZ and now do high quality cast iron as well. I can make a pattern easily enough. I will talk to them tomorrow or Thurs. & get a ballpark on prices. I believe that they can supply castings stress relieved with no fanfare. At least the cost of throwing some iron all the way across the pacific won't be an issue (only floating across the Tasman).

Michael

[Greg Q]

Hi Phil, I was thinking of getting a raw cast iron master square casting from the US and scraping that on the day... That would mean I would not need a block....

I was also thinking of doing a mock up V and flat way section to talk about how one goes about scraping that....

The squares look like this.. I think they are 12" a side.... I can pre-machine and scrape one side prior to coming to the class..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/square1.jpg

RC, I'm interested in getting one of those too. Can you let me know details?

GQ

[jhovel]

Hi,
I have contacted all intending participants with a few more questions and proposals. Please get back to me (e-mail preferred).
But for additional interested people, I'll summarise here:
After some discussion about the details already provided, we are discussing the idea of splitting the class in running two classes:
A beginners' class - perhaps as early as September - for those of us who have no or little prior experience. That class would focus on scraping techniques, tools, blueing, reading the blue, scraoing a flat, scraping a right angle and some demos of other techniques (mottling, half-mooning and prcision measuring). The aim would be to learn to scrape an accurate flat, an accurate right angle flat, good technique and practcal skills development. These goals vcan all be met by scraping or starting to scrape a precision parallel block (or similar object) to take home.
Phil suggests that any participants without a project that meets these requuirements would buy machined and/or ground good quality cast iron blocks which he can source and prepare for us. The expected cost is $45 each.

The second class - mid-November - will be a "master class" for people with scraping experience. The focus will be machine survey, precision measuring, scraping to alignment and special techniques such as decorative scapring, oilways etc. (not finalised yet).
In this class, participants would be invited to bring machine parts or projects and tools which meet these aims.

Some participants of the first class may wish to continue in the second class. The limit for both will be around 10-12 people.

The cost will include fees for the teacher(s), some disposables (ink, towels, etc), food and refreshments. FInal cost is not yet determined.

In either case, two working days is not enough to complete complex or large projects, but sufficient to gain enough insight to continue at home/work.
This forum will remain a great resource to exchange learnings of participants long after the classes are done and dusted.

I look forward to meeting you in person there!
Cheers,
Joe

[Stustoys]

RC,
+1 for the above.

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Do you have one of those Sandvik Coromant scrapers? I'm after some measurements in particular the dimensions of the main portion of the holder, from the pictures it looks like about 25mm x 6mm, I assume it's hardened and is it stiff? or does it need to be a bit springy?

Regards
Ray

[.RC.]

I will post the info about the square... But beware they are 10" X 2".. I think a new learner would struggle to finish one at the class to the required accuracy.... And unless you have access to a master granite square you would not be able to easily finish it at a later date...They would be good for an intermediate scraper though..

The square are from Martin Model in the US, they are not on their website... They cost US$45 and weigh 17 pounds... So postage to AU would be around $60 in a flat rate box...They accept paypal..

Martin Model & Pattern - your online source for fine quality patterns and castings (http://www.martinmodel.com/)

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
Close, its 25x5mm. It doesnt "feel" any different to some 30x5mm black I have here but I'm old and weak. I couldnt comment on what it "needs to be" as other than this one I have only ever used an old file.
edit Hi RC, thanks for the info.

Stuart

[Pete F]

.... And unless you have access to a master granite square you would not be able to easily finish it at a later date.

Richard, speaking of which this is also something that I'm considering.

shars.com - 10quot x 6quot x 1quot Precision Granite Square (http://www.shars.com/products/view/2386/10quot_x_6quot_x_1quot_Precision_Granite_Square)

It turns out they don't have stock of the granite angle plate, so it will be either this or the cylindrical square I'll finish up buying. I just need to sit down and juggle the items on the "wish list" to get the best value out of the 20 lb pre-paid box.

Pete

[jhovel]

Geez! Did you see their prices for Grade A black granite surface plates???
shars.com - Grade A 9quot x 12quot Black Granite Surface Plate (http://www.shars.com/products/view/2336/Grade_A_9quot_x_12quot_Black_Granite_Surface_Plate)
Anyone going over there who can bring one back in cabin luggage for me? :) just a little one... ;)
Joe

[Stustoys]

Geez! Did you see their prices for Grade A black granite surface plates???

Depressing isnt it lol

Stuart

[Ropetangler]

If I could fly into Rocky, you can (probably) fly out. Nice drive anyway, probably only take you 4 days.

I'd be in a scraping workshop as well. Easy to nick up from Hobart. In fact I'll be in Melbourne the week after next, heading back south from Sydney to do my bit for the old iron imbalance in Tasmania. Good thing I brought the turbo diesel flat tray with me because it's going back full.

PDW

G'Day Pete,
Welcome to the group, nice to see you here at last. I know that you know some of the members from other places, even if you have yet to meet them face to face.
On the subject of the iron imbalance, dare I ask if it is more boat, or more machinery to make it with:D Cheers,
Rob

[PDW]

G'Day Pete,
Welcome to the group, nice to see you here at last. I know that you know some of the members from other places, even if you have yet to meet them face to face.
On the subject of the iron imbalance, dare I ask if it is more boat, or more machinery to make it with:D Cheers,
Rob

Big boy toys. Another lathe, 2 drill presses (1 a camelback flat belt type for a garden ornament), parts of a Nicholls type milling machine (I'm scrapping the rest). Just been to Mick Moyles, now I've got another 2 D1-6 chucks for the Monarch and a 40 International vertical head to mount on the Vicky U2 mill.

I'll get back to the boat in early August.

PDW

[jhovel]

Just a quick note to update this thread:
Over the last three or four days, there's been continuous work and negotiating going on to tie up many loose ends, come up with a detailed budget and a detailed program.
We will finalise the costs sometime over the next week and set a date.
The idea of running a beginners' class and a separate advanced class has been dropped for now. Collating all your replies has made that redundant. We may pick that idea up again later. The single two day class planned will give some insights into machine rebuilding but won't focus on it.
Watch this space!
Cheers,
Joe

[Ropetangler]

Hi Joe, Phil Greg RC and All,
I just noticed these angle plates being sold by eBay seller Ozmestore, and wondered if they would be of any use as practice pieces for the course participants. They may be considered too difficult with their extensive slotting, I simply don't know, nor have I any idea what we might get a bulk number for, or even if he could supply in suitable numbers, but I just draw your attention to their possible use.6"X5"X4-1/2" Slotted Webbed Angle Plate | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-X5-X4-1-2-Slotted-Webbed-Angle-Plate-/270778486807?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3f0ba7d017#ht_500wt_1156).
On another note, there is some scraping discussion on the Model Engineer's Workshop website, and a link to this video was posted.
‪
To my very uneducated eyes, the manner in which the scraping was being carried out looked quite extreme, and a somewhat uncomfortable work technique. (I quite liked the sound-track though), and I wondered what our gurus might think. Regards,
Rob.

[Machtool]

Just a quick note to all, this project hasn’t lost momentum, I’m in daily communication with the guys that are trying to put this together. We are close to having dates, cost and a format for the class. It been quite challenging trying to put a few things together to accommodate every ones interests.

I just noticed these angle plates being sold by eBay seller Ozmestore, and wondered if they would be of any use as practice pieces for the course participants.
Whilst they are a nice size, and a good thing to take away at the end, they present a few problems. For one they are hard to hold, the way the webs come down the back, you need a really narrow vice to hold them in. Even if you can hold them in a vice, they end up being too high off the floor.

When I scrap a right angle plate, I have an old cast iron saddle here that’s nice and heavy, I have that on a bench. It has tapped holes in the end, I normally use the tapped hole to bolt the other face to, so its reasonably low, yet solid enough to scrap on.

There’s currently 16 guys expressing an interest, Hopefully they can all attend, but I’m going to be hard pressed to find enough gear to hold those angle plates. Unless anyone else has any ideas how we can hold those?


They may be considered too difficult with their extensive slotting, The slots aren’t a bad thing, everyone needs to learn how to scrap around obstructions. Oil ports, lube grooves, tee slots, etc. But maybe not for the beginner. I’d be a bit concerned handing over a power scraper to someone new at that, it gives you other things to bang into. I’m prepping 3 cast iron surface plates for people to practice that on. Those angle plates are also 6 kg’s, We also have to be careful about getting them on and off granite safely.

Whilst I’m not against those angle plates, I still think the 2 – 4 – 6” block to be the best to build up skill level in the limited time we have over the weekend. I can find enough vices, or ply wood blocking like the Japanese guy in your video used, so that its fast, and you gets lots of turns blueing up. That would still be a useful tool to take away, Its going to be flat, so you have a reference for local spoting, and square so its useful for lay out work.
there is some scraping discussion on the Model Engineer's Workshop website I’ve never been there, so I hunted that thread down. That “ blue accumulates in the low spot” guy is scary. He’s putting the blue on the piece being scraped, totally ass about face, then rubbing it on a clean reference, and scraping the shiny spots where the reference has rubbed the blue off. I have a very special tool for rubbing the blue off, Its called a rag.

the manner in which the scraping was being carried out looked quite extreme It’s certainly different, but I wont knock it if it works for him. Every one is different. I’ve noticed that with Asian scapers, they use their body more for power, I guess that’s just different builds.

Not sure that I liked the first blueing, where he puts his hands in the middle of that plate. Slender plate like that you will distort by hand pressure. So you would get a faulty reading on the middle of the plate. And I’d think he would have put it out of parallel by scraping mostly the ends, but he didn’t check that.

Regards Phil.

[Ropetangler]

Thanks Phil for the detailed response to my post, the 2-4-6 block will be fine as far as I am concerned, I just thought that the angle plates might have solved some logistical issues for you, and as you said may have proved useful for participants to take home. I'm sure that the 2-4-6 blocks will also find ready uses when they are completed and back in their owners workshops.
I did find the scraping thread at the MEW site full of contradictory ideas, from a range of people who had apparently spent considerable time in their working careers actually doing it. To me who has no experience in scraping, it was difficult to figure out what the best way was. I can only assume that both methods can work, but bluing the reference plate, and then scraping the blued parts of the work-piece is the way most people find works best.
Thanks again for the reply, and many thanks to you and all the other organisers, for all you are doing to get the course up and running for the rest of us, it is gratefully appreciated.
Regards,
Rob.

[.RC.]

Ok Gents, we have got a fairly accurate price, but it may vary slightly either way depending on numbers...

It will be $300/person for the weekend class depending on total numbers..

This includes meals supplied during the class (morning tea, lunch) and also consumable items like ink, paper towels, cleaning liquids..

We should have enough ink left over for you to take some home, so that is included in the price..

If you need a workpiece to scrape and take home that will be extra. (we think around $40). We can supply a piece of cast iron to make some 50, 100, 150 blocks out of, but we would have to know how many people need this before we work out the cost of that (appropriate sized cast bar in Au is hard to find).... We can also supply a scraper should the need arise.. Cost for a sandvik scraper is $90.. this includes one carbide piece. One of us should be able to supply home made hand scrapers for around the $50 mark (or maybe less), or loan one for the day...(I plan on making a tube type, may even give it away on the day :)

Once a date is determined a deposit will be required to reserve your spot... The date has not yet been determined, but are working around the 1st/2nd October.. Please let us know on whether that suits..


We also need to know if interstate/out of town participants would be coming in the Friday or Saturday morning... This will affect the starting time...


This class if for basic handscraping, we will be scraping flat and square, so if you are bringing something to scrape, please no complex shapes like a dovetail/V way..

Also helpful things to bring will be a felt tipped pen (nikko, sharpie, etc) and if you are scraping the cast iron blocks a micrometer (25-50mm).. We will post more along the lines of things that not essential but handy to bring closer to the day.

Joe would like to know what weekends you have and have not available.. And again also if you need a workpiece (cast iron bar) Please advise him via email or PM..

Also if you wish to bring a flat workpiece of your own, please tell us what it is so it can be approved.... The reason for this is so we can work out how it will be held for scraping.... With 16 people we will not have enough vices if we all bring a workpiece that has to be held in a vice...

There is probably something I have forgotten but we can sort that out in the coming weeks...

Edit: We will also have power scrapers there on the day..

[Bryan]

RC have you been scraping today? You seem to have Dykem on your keybard. :)

No, thanks for the update, good to hear it's coming together.

BTW, will I be laughed at cruelly and have things thrown at me if I turn up with a HSS scraper?

[Greg Q]

No, we'll just stick a carbide one in your hand after five minutes and then you can tell us if you like it better. :D:wink:

[.RC.]

Can we get a show of hands on here for those still interested now the price for the week end has been posted? And a tentative date...

[Bryan]

Yes.

[C-47]

RC,
OK so far. Alan.

[RayG]

Looks Ok.

[Ropetangler]

I'm still keen, but will be on the big island from 17-19th August (not certain yet) till late September to mid October, on an extended touring /camping trip. The best time for me would probably be from the last week-end in October onwards. Thanks for all the hard work in tying up so many loose ends to get this organised, I with everyone else I'm sure, am really looking forward to meeting and putting faces to names I have only seen on the monitor. Regards,
Rob.

[.RC.]

Thanks for the feedback so far....

Phil has advised us that 1st/2nd October is the AFL grand final weekend. Upon perusing flight prices for that weekend for our interstate travellers, the prices are not exactly cheap compared to the following or preceding weekend...

Stay tuned...

[Machtool]

The best time for me would probably be from the last week-end in October onwards.G’day Rob.

Last weekend in October is Melbourne Cup weekend. Its early this year, Tuesday 1st Nov. That will be the other expensive weekend to be flying into town. I haven’t booked any work yet, but we normally end up working Melbourne Cup as it’s a shutdown period.

Regards Phil.

[Pete F]

I'm still keen. Pretty much any date is a total crapshoot for me (hmm, will be interesting to see if the board likes that expression), but ideally would be 12 and 13th of November as I begin annual leave then. Still no guarantee, but at least 90% likely. That is if I my job hasen't been farmed off to China by then, in which case any date would suit me :D

Richard, have you turned into a smurf with all the dykem? Also I'll join the thanks for those offering to organise this, in return I can offer ... unqualified opinion and really bad jokes. Mainly the former.

Pete

[.RC.]

I am reserving the dykem posts for the ones that have important information about the weekend, makes it easier to pick them out.. Was going to use hot pink to match my persona but went for royal blue instead to match my heritage :D

Just go on strike for whatever week-end we choose Pete....

[Pete F]

I am reserving the dykem posts for the ones that have important information about the weekend, makes it easier to pick them out.. Was going to use hot pink to match my persona but went for royal blue instead to match my heritage :D

Just go on strike for whatever week-end we choose Pete....

Good idea, but I'll have to make a passenger announcement about it first :p I'm just real peeved that my wife has now found out I make half a mill a year ... apparently :rolleyes:

[PDW]

Thanks for the feedback so far....

Phil has advised us that 1st/2nd October is the AFL grand final weekend. Upon perusing flight prices for that weekend for our interstate travellers, the prices are not exactly cheap compared to the following or preceding weekend...

Stay tuned...


I'm still in for it. Don't really care what w/end as I only have to worry about humans not cows....

PDW

[PDW]

Good idea, but I'll have to make a passenger announcement about it first :p I'm just real peeved that my wife has now found out I make half a mill a year ... apparently :rolleyes:

That is why I always pay cash for all my tools and NEVER ask for a receipt. What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over.

You need to keep close track of that account your *real* salary goes into as well as the one that you periodically transfer what you *say* is your salary into.

PDW

[harty69]

300 bucks sounds good to me
that weekend is in the middle of school holidays but that just means a 7hr drive to the course instead of a 3hr drive no real problem
and yes thanks to those organizing and running the course

cheers
Harty

[Pete F]

You need to keep close track of that account your *real* salary goes into as well as the one that you periodically transfer what you *say* is your salary into.

PDW

Mate I just can't wait for the backpay News Corp, that pinacle of journalistic excellence, reckons the company owes me based on some of the figures I've seen them quote!


BTW, will I be laughed at cruelly and have things thrown at me if I turn up with a HSS scraper?


Bryan, hopefully by then I will have made a few more versions of scrapers and I'll bring them with me for you to use if it helps. Since I will have made them myself they'll all still be crap however, so you may still get laughed at :D I accidentally left my argon bottle on and it has leaked out (luckily it was almost empty!). The place I get my steel from is just down the road from the welding dude, so I'll get some appropriate size steel in the same trip and the next scraper should then have an uncanny resemblance to a certain commercially available version. Purely coincidental of course!

Pete

[Ropetangler]

Last weekend in October is Melbourne Cup weekend. Its early this year, Tuesday 1st Nov. That will be the other expensive weekend to be flying into town. I haven’t booked any work yet, but we normally end up working Melbourne Cup as it’s a shutdown period.

Regards Phil.

O.K. on that Phil, I hadn't realised that Melbourne Cup Day was early this year. I imagine that the weeks before that weekend will be busy and expensive too with the Spring Racing Carnival. None of us would want you to miss shut down work and the income from it either. I have just remembered too that BT will be overseas all of October, so perhaps mid November may be a better choice. I don't envy you organisers, trying to suit as many as possible is no easy task.
Regards,
Rob

[eskimo]

Thanks for the feedback so far....

Phil has advised us that 1st/2nd October is the AFL grand final weekend. Upon perusing flight prices for that weekend for our interstate travellers, the prices are not exactly cheap compared to the following or preceding weekend...

Stay tuned...


who cares....SA aint in it

[eskimo]

I'm still keen... work may be a problem as I have just been awarded a chiller repair ...but until actual date set and parts ETA, I wont know for sure

[Stustoys]

I'm still interested.



BTW, will I be laughed at cruelly and have things thrown at me if I turn up with a HSS scraper?
I promise not to laugh at your scraper if you promise not to laugh at my Chinese mic. :D. Besides the only scraper I had used until about 3 weeks ago was an modified file.

Stuart

[Bryan]

At least you've used one. Mine is still an ornament until I find a place to set up my surface plate.

[.RC.]

We have set a new date to get around the AFL grand final problem (or more to the point the high cost of airline tickets during that period).. It will now be held on the 8th and 9th October... This is 11 weeks away.

Unless we have overlooked something drastic (asteroid hitting the earth, return of a religious omnipotent being, etc) this should be the final date...

Currently confirmed are

Stustoys
jhovel
.RC.
Greg Q
Bryan
C-47
RayG plus 1
PDW
harty69

unsure at this time
Ropetangler
PeteF
eskimo

Can you please post if you will be needing help to find accommodation and or need help with travelling from motel/hotel/under bridge to the class.

Also we will be chasing a deposit to secure your position... More to come..

[Ropetangler]

That date is not good for me. Every week after that would be better, especially as an ex Bathurst boy, someone who grew up there, and as a teen-age driver, used to sneak in through back roads and stock- routs with a Morris Minor full of mates, when none of us had much money, but we wouldn't have missed the car racing on account of that.:B:B. Did I mention that Bathurst is on :U
Seriously, I had planned on being at my Mothers (just out of Bathurst), for a week or two past the 8-9th of October, but I won't completely rule myself out at this stage, but will have to change some plans already pencilled in.
How long have I got before you need a definite decision, and my next question would be, Is it anticipated at this stage that another class might be run in the future for people who miss this class? (I realise that this question will be hard to answer at present) I do sympathise with the dilemma you organisers, have in setting a date.:doh: Regards,
Rob.

[Stustoys]

I'm still interested.




Currently confirmed are



Sniff

Stuart

[.RC.]

oops sorry Stuart...

Yes you are on the list of confirmed

[.RC.]

T
How long have I got before you need a definite decision, and my next question would be, Is it anticipated at this stage that another class might be run in the future for people who miss this class? (I realise that this question will be hard to answer at present) I do sympathise with the dilemma you organisers, have in setting a date.:doh: Regards,
Rob.

I cannot see we need a definite decision for a few weeks yet...

We have had a lot of soul searching and too and froing to get this date and we have locked it in, it is really the only weekend we could all finalise on for this year.. We have booked the teachers... We knew that unfortunately it would clash with someone somewhere...But there is nothing we could do...

There are no plans for another class in the future.. This will be a one off event..

[RayG]

oops sorry Stuart...

Yes you are on the list of confirmed




Hi Stuart,

Good to see you've joined the party... :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Thanks Ray,
I'm sure its just RC paying me back for forgetting his name :)

Stuart

[jhovel]

Just a quick note (as I don't have PC acces and doing this via phone is a pain) - I'll be home Friday night and will contact everyone interested with a few more details and some more questions to make all goes smooth for everyone.
Cheers,
Joe

[Ropetangler]

G'day Joe, keep me in the loop please, as although the dates will not be easy for me, I am trying to juggle things around a bit to still be able to make it with you all. At least I'm still a chance while poor BT seems certain to miss out. It was pretty certain that some would not be able to make a particular date, and on this occasion I might be in that category if I'm unable to finesse our itinerary. Regards,
Rob.

[Anorak Bob]

A while back, I put my hand up to buy a pair of milled cast iron 2-4-6 blocks for the scraping course. They are not going to be of much use to me now.

Is there any chance that I can cancel that order? If not, would someone else like to buy them?

I have looked in vain for the original post.

Bob.