T & C Grinder

[Stustoys]

Picked this up today. Well more slid it up, damn is it heavy for such a little thing.
I'll give it a bit of a clean and then mount the 3 phase motor off my tool post grinder onto it. Any one know any more about it? I was told you can get different heads for it?

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Now there's a nice project, looks to be in fair enough condition. What size is the table?
If it will fit on the surface grinder, I'd be happy to offer you the facilities.

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

From here it looks in o.k. nick. Have you checked the table and spindle with an indicator Stu?

[Stustoys]

Thanks guys,
I haven't put an indicator on it as yet Bob. Its a little dirty still.
The table is 545 x 115.
Just to give you an idea what I mean by heavy. Door 9kgs vertical post with spindle 23kgs, table 58kgs. No idea on the base other then to say way more than 58kgs.
X travel is 300mm+ but gets sticky towards the ends I'm guessing there is maybe another 150mm to come. Y I haven't checked yet.
It was sold as a surface grinder, which I guess explains the why the wheel mounts onto the left of the spindle in this picture so the when its turned parallel to the table its about center. For a tool and cutter grinder I think it would be better with the wheel on the right hand side. I hope that's easy enough to do.

Back to it

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

A few similarities. Here are links to the original scanned catalogue and operating instructions.

VintageMachinery.org - Delta Manufacturing Co. - Publication Reprints - Toolmakers Surface Grinder Brochure (http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=1691)

VintageMachinery.org - Delta Manufacturing Co. - Publication Reprints - Toolmaker Surface Grinder (http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=1889)


Could be of some relevance, Stu.

BT

[Dave J]

Good score Stuart.:2tsup: and good to see it's home.

Dave

[Bryan]

Don't know a thing about 'em, but watching with interest.

[jhovel]

Stu, do you have any info on the bearings used for the spindle? Bob's manual shows a plain taper bearing at the wheel end. How successful are they compared to taper roller bearings or Angular contact bearing or 4-point contact bearings?

[Dave J]

Don't know a thing about 'em, but watching with interest.

These little machines set up with all the attachments and wheels will sharpen every lathe and mill tool you have in the shop. There is a steep learning curve to them as well to get good results, but all the info can all be found in the older books.

Dave

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,


X travel is 300mm+ but gets sticky towards the ends I'm guessing there is maybe another 150mm to come.

That sounds like the ways could be a candidate for exercising the "soon to be acquired" scraping skills.

That table, (545mmx115), would fit easily on the surface grinder... :)

You'll have to do something about the colour...

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Guys,
Getting cold and dark out there.

Thanks for the links BT I'll have more of a read soon.

400mm is about the max X travel before the ways starts to come uncovered. Y looks to be about 85mm.

I've had the table off and cleaned it up. Mostly the ways look pretty good but there are a few funny things that make me think it may have been rebuilt at some stage. The gear for X travel has been worn sharp. There are some interesting machining marks on the bottom of the table(first picture). This means the table only bares on about 40% of one of its ways(top of second picture)

I've started having a look at the head, it has ball bearings of some sort both ends(3rd). I should be able to fit some sort of wheel carrier as will hold wheels up to about 23mm thick. I have no idea what all the extra bolts oh the head are for yet, guard maybe?
BTW I believe plain bearings are still used on a lot of surface grinders.

Ray I think that might be the color it came lol

The down feed is 0.100" a turn so knocking off the odd 1/10th could be a little tricky lol

Still all in all I think it will do what I want from it. I know a guy with a real surface grinder if I need one hehe.

Did I miss any questions?? lol

Stuart

p.s. I missed run out. I measured the run out on the spindle, its around 0.02mm maybe a little less. Although there are a couple of marks on it so it will need some sort of touch up most likely if I am going to use wheel holders.

[Anorak Bob]

Stu,

It appears that the upper way in photo 2 is slightly curved. Is that how it is in reality?

Overall, it looks like a simple little machine that won't require a life's work to refurbish.

BT

[Stustoys]

Morning BT,
I've just had a quick look. I'm not exactly sure whats goes on there but it looks just as bad in the flesh. The top of the dovetail is almost straight and almost parallel to the other way. A quick measure says its mostly the flat way getting wider at the right hand end that makes it look so bad. I've got to go out now but I'll take some real measurments later.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

It looks like you could plonk the casting on your mill table and remachine the dovetails. Not too hard. Wanna swap grinders?:roll:

[bollie7]

My Uncle has one though I'm not sure if his has the swivel table.
I had the base, and column from one given to me years ago. It was missing a lot of parts including the rack and pinion from the table and the pinion from the saddle. It didn't have a swivel table so maybe it wqas originally just a straight surface grinder.
I had the quill and pulleys from a bench drill at the time so I fabricated a head to convert the C & C to a small mill drill. With the help of a very knowledgable F & M teacher at TAFE I was able to machine a new pinion for the saddle. I used some thread bar for the table feed with a bearing at each end and a split nut to adjust the back lash out.
It worked quite well for what it was. I sold it after I got my Bridgeport clone. I wish now that I had kept it as it would still be useful.

bollie7

[Keith_W]

Stustoys,
I had one of the C&C units till I had to move and sold it.
I attach a few photo's which may help you. I know where the unit is so if you need some specific information could be possible that I can get it for you.

Regards,
Keith.

[Anorak Bob]

Now that's going to make it real hard for Stu. He's seen what he hasn't got. High speed spindle, motorised work head.....

How heavy was the feel of the table traverse Keith?

BT

[Stustoys]

Keith, bollie7, Do you know what sort of bearings you had on the spindle? Keith's appears to have an oiler?
Keith's also has a much better Y way setup.
What's the rod along the back of the table for?
Do you have any other pictures on the table work spindle?
Any info on max wheel sizes?


Wanna swap grinders?:roll:
Careful BT, I might just take you up on that.
As best I can make out at some time in its life(Not long ago) this machine was murdered.
Looking at the bottom of the table (first picture in post 11) and the following pictures you can see where someone has machined part ot the flat ways of the table. The only reason I can think of was that they were machine clearance on the the bottom of the dovetail dew to wear on the flat ways and machined the wrong flat surface by mistake. This seems to leave the gib side of the table riding either on the gib itself or a very thin section of the flat way.(see what I mean or should I add arrows?)
I say "not long ago as the flat ways on the carriage don't appear to be wreaked)

Whats a piece of cast bar 670x105x42mm going to cost me?

On a happier note the spindle still looks and feels good . I also think I was back to front about needing the wheel on the other side.

I believe it will serve my needs as a T&C grinder as is, but I wouldn't use it as a surface grinder as it as it will make a mess of the flat ways of the Y carriage.

Stuart

[Bryan]

Could this be an application for a Turcite type product?

[jhovel]

I totally agree Bryan!
I would imagine machining the 'murdered' surface flat and parallel, bonding Turcite or it's equivalent to it and scraping that might work well.
I think Phil and Marko are going to demonstrate that in Melbourne! I read some of the literature on the Turcite® : Aetna Plastics (http://www.aetnaplastics.com/products/d/Turcite/) site only last night. I'm considering it for my future surface grinder (adaptation of a Whitney mill) which has very worn table ways.

[Anorak Bob]

Maybe another solution Stu,

How about we go halves in a catamaran and use our grinders as anchors for each hull?

BT

[Stustoys]

Maybe I could supply something for Phil and Marko to demonstrate on?:rolleyes: Infact I could being the whole thing and we could all practice on it all weekend ;)
Another know what Turcite costs in that sort of size? It would be a fairly easy part to replace if it came to it.

lol BT, I'll test the carraige tomorrow and see how flat it is before I tip it over the side.

Stuart

[Swarfmaker1]

Stuart, you may consider converting the damaged slideway to use a tapered gib. It looks possible from the photos. Perhaps someone's already had a go at it. Throw the old gib out and get a bit of brass flat bar and machine the matching taper. It's more superior form of gib with greater rigidity in the slideway. Simple to adjust.

[Stustoys]

Stuart, you may consider converting the damaged slideway to use a tapered gib. It looks possible from the photos. Perhaps someone's already had a go at it. Throw the old gib out and get a bit of brass flat bar and machine the matching taper. It's more superior form of gib with greater rigidity in the slideway. Simple to adjust.

At the minute I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do, but I'll keep it in mind.
I've just remembered its hard to get rectangular cast bar in AU. So I'd have to make a new table out of round. I think maybe facing the flat ways with bronze might be the way to go. I guess one good thing is I cant make it much worse!
Stuart

[Bryan]

You could machine every horizontal surface on the underside of the table, including the rack seat, so the whole thing sits lower. Scrape the ways, make a thicker gib. Pinion alignment is unchanged. Have I missed something? Fair bit of work, but a 'clean' solution.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/179758d1314008902-t-c-grinder-tcgo.jpg

[Stustoys]

Hi Bryan,
If I do it that way the table moves back. I'll have to have a look as it must have moved back a fair way already. Still it might not be an issue.

Know anyone with a 26" shaper? lol

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

I know nothing about the mechanical properties of turcite, but, the layer you would need for the repair would be sandwiched between the flat and top of the dovetail so would be under compression and you would think it would be pretty solid when used that way.

That, or the brass/bronze facing strip would be my best guess. About how much do you need to build up?

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
At least 2.5mms needs to be machined off the flat ways to remove the step(more to clean up the half moons shown in earlier pictures). Then add some for wear maybe? 3.5mmish

From the ebay listing "THIS MACHINE HAS NOT BEEN ABUSED". Well I'd hate to see one that had been. hehe

Stuart

[Dave J]

Hi Ray,
At least 2.5mms needs to be machined off the flat ways to remove the step(more to clean up the half moons shown in earlier pictures). Then add some for wear maybe? 3.5mmish

From the ebay listing "THIS MACHINE HAS NOT BEEN ABUSED". Well I'd hate to see one that had been. hehe

Stuart


No, just machined by a uneducated person.

Sorry to hear about your troubles with it Stuart.
Sometimes things like these are more trouble than they are worth to fix.

I see you are not happy with your grinder either Bob, I feel a bit bad that I sent the link to you for it.

Dave

[Stustoys]

Can't expect every rock I pick up from ebay to be a gold nugget lol
I'm (almost) sure it will do what I want from it as it is now. At the minute I'm most worried than moving the X to much will wear the top of the carriage which looks pretty good for some unknown reason(it may in fact be using the bottom of the dovetail as the flat ways).
Sharpening end mills most of the movement will be coming from the attachment. I'll just need small movements of Y for the cut. Which reminds me, I need to find a way to lock the X( I could always just tighten the gib adjusters I guess)

The big question is did the seller know? lol

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Dave, you let me know the grinder was for sale, you didn't make me buy it. I just wish it was as simple to repair as Stu's. I'd machine the vee ways off in a flash if doing so led to some easier way of fixing the thing. Bolt on ways maybe? One of the blokes on HSM, in RC's grinder thread there, says his K O Lee grinder has bolt ons, making refurbishment a more staightforward task. As Stuart has found out, obtaining lengths of cast bar is difficult here. It sounds like the only bits of bar around have been bought up for the scratching /scraping class.:no:

BT

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Let's see if I've got this right, the green bits can either be machined out and replaced with facing strips, or turcite. At the moment it's only bearing on the thin remaining strip, which, I'm guessing the guy who did the butchery couldn't mill probably because he didn't have a dovetail cutter, only a straight mill, so he couldn't get into the corner, maybe it was a face mill, probably the same diameter of the half moons on the rack.. :D


http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/tcgo2.jpg

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
Thats pretty it. I think the front is only bearing on the gib or the bottom of the dovetail. I also think there much be a fair be of wear.

I now really wondering how those marks got there. If it was a mill it was a huge cutter and how would it come loose like that? Surely it couldnt have been some sort of table saw?

BT,
Turcite works on Vee ways so they say.

The latest issue is the flagne on the column isn't flat. So it rocks. No biggy

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Am I missing something here Stu? What holds the wheel on the spindle? Unlike the threaded nose of the Hercus spindle, the C+C's is unthreaded.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
Yes you are missing something. Thats the base of the column that supports the spindle(http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/179630d1313904843-t-c-grinder-tcgc.jpg)



As best I can tell all those bolts on the spindle bearing casting do nothing. There is now a bronze sleeve fitted and sealed bearings. Just so I have the complete set, one of the bearings appears to be shot. Is there a bearing that stays together like a normal ball bearing but needs axial preload? They both feel fine but one has some axial play. As best I can make out the skf part number is something like RL55-2RS1(with 8675 on the seal). The top half of the part number on both bearings has been cut off.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Sorry Stu, I don't know what happened there!:doh:

[Anorak Bob]

In an attempt at redeeming myself after the earlier cock up, here's what I have found in my 1986 copy of SKF's Bearing Maintenance and Replacement Guide.

RL5 is a self aligning ball bearing, 5/8" bore, 1 7/8" o.d and 7/16 " thick. 15,000 rpm limiting speed with grease and 18,000 rpm with oil lubrication.

-2RS1 indicates that steel reinforced synthetic rubber seals are fitted on each side of the bearing.

I have no idea of what the additional 5 represents.

The bearings fitted to the Hercus spindle are standard single row radial ball bearings. They are installed with a simple spring device that maintains preload.

BT

[jhovel]

May I duggest that the bearing numbers are actually RL56... It could be a worn self aligning bearing, but that sounds like someone didn't trust the accuracy of their machining (of the sleeve) and compensated by using one of these - I would too.... However, angular contact bearings also behave how you describe: they feel "loose" before being preloaded. They can only carry axial loads in one direction. Please check which - it will be the side with the number - or the other of course. A google search will tell you which (I just can't remember).
Cheers,
Joe

[Stustoys]

In an attempt at redeeming myself after the earlier cock up
Nice try BT but now you have me going out in the cold to get a vernier from the shed at 11:10pm. hehe, Thanks

Maybe my guesses at the numbers weren't so good.
My bearings are bore=0.745(3/4) o.d=1.875(1 7/8") thick=0.560(9/16)
Bearing preload on mine is fixed, the spindle has two shoulders and there is a bronze bush in the head. I assume they are the same length, I'm not sure I have can check that without pressing the bush out of the head.

Stuart

[Stustoys]

They can only carry axial loads in one direction. Please check which - it will be the side with the number - or the other of course. A google search will tell you which (I just can't remember).

Hi Joe,
Some fool didn't mark the bearing when he pulled it out of, course he remember that just after it was to late! He was just going to put it back in opposite to the one on the other end.

I think you are right its not "55" certainly not the same what ever they are.
As best I can tell at 12pm the numbers on the other bearing look the same except the numbers on the seal 8662 on the bearing that has no play. If the french had just made it readable!

Stuart

[pipeclay]

Are you sure those bearing measurements are accurate,a couple of them seem a bit odd.

[Anorak Bob]

RLS 6 - Deep groove ball bearing - 3/4" bore, 1 7/8" x 9/16" same limiting speeds as previously posted.

BT

[pipeclay]

As I said some of those measurements seem odd,work arounds,guessess,maybe just a croock vernier.

[Stustoys]

Hi PC,
I meant to put in my last post. The decimals are the numbers my $8 vernier are giving me, the fractions are my guess at what they are really. I'll go get the mics out check my numbers.
Stuart

Edit. new numbers
b=19.04 o.d=47.61 thick=14.265mm
b=0.749 o.d=1.874 thick= 0.561"
All my good measuring gear is metric. Are those closer to the numbers you would expect PC?

RLS6 sounds good atm BT. Do you think the number on the seal would just be a batch number? Deep grooves dont have a direction? there is one other marking 180 degrees from the part number is what looks to be a G with something next to it.

[Stustoys]

Well its back together until I decide what to do next. To top things off I was looking at the "thing" I was going to modify to sharpen endmills with an realised it can only move about 27mm. That's fine for most of my 6mm cutters but not the larger sizes. Back to the drawing board.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

G - Single row angular contact ball bearing for universal mounting; when used in back to back or face to face arrangements there will be a slight internal axial clearance.

Maybe I should post a photo of the page from the SKF guide.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,

Maybe you should(I have a Timken bearing book but not SKF).

Maybe they shouldn't have cut the part numbers in half so I could have given you all the infomation you needed in one go!

Thank you

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Hope they are of some help.

BT

[Keith_W]

Hi Stustoys,
Sorry for t6he delay in getting some more pictures for you, hope they can be of help.

Regards,
Keith

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
I thought I had replied to this. Thank you for the scan of the guide.

Hi Keith,
Thank you for the pictures, they have confirmed a few things for me.
I guess its meant to be easy to swap which side the grinding wheel is on as is has two guard holders.

Stuart