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hughie
31st August 2011, 12:10 PM
This came up on another forum about the scarcity of indentured wood turners.

So my question is:- :?

How many indentured wood turners do we have on this forum or in Australia in general?

Harry72
31st August 2011, 03:36 PM
As far as our SWMBO's are concerned we are all indentured!

jimbur
31st August 2011, 04:08 PM
What if you have your own teeth?:U
Cheers,
Jim

tch'
1st September 2011, 12:35 AM
If someone did want to take on an apprentice though, I could be interested. :)

Skew ChiDAMN!!
1st September 2011, 12:41 AM
:think:

Does indentured and a woodturner count?

China
1st September 2011, 01:16 AM
Well although I was not indetured soley as a woodturner I trained as a woodturner as part of my post trade courses ( Cabinet Maker) and aquired what in those days was called the the furnishing trades certificate

ian
1st September 2011, 01:57 AM
If by "indentured" you mean apprenticed, the answer might be ZERO
as far as I know, NSW TAFE no longer offers a wood turning trade course

even furniture & cabinet making (as a trade) is problematic, as most of the domestic furniture industry is about kitchens and shop fittings

issatree
1st September 2011, 02:23 AM
Hi hughie,
Not trying to be rude, but it seems I'm not the only 1 who is not sure of the word " Indentured ".
How about a bit of Common English.
I have Dentures, but I don't have any Dents in my body.
I am an untrained Woodturner, just learnt by watching & going home & trying to do what I had seen.
Seems to have worked.

AUSSIE
1st September 2011, 03:51 AM
I had nothing to do so looked up Indentured:roll:



Indentured Labor according to the free Geography Dictionary = Work performed according to a binding contract between two parties.


Definition for indentured labour:

An indentured servant was a worker, typically a laborer or tradesman, under contract to an employer for a fixed period of time, typically three to seven years, in exchange for their transportation, food, clothing, lodging and other necessities





Bonded or indentured labour occurs when workers are obliged to keep on working to reimburse a debt to the employer of a credit facilitator, often because they are subject to penalties or deductions in the context of their work. Migrants are special victims of this form of labour, to pay accommodation and travel costs, or fees of employment recruiters

Dengue
1st September 2011, 06:26 AM
All apprentices are "Indentured" at the beginning of their apprenticeship

hughie
1st September 2011, 09:15 AM
]All apprentices are "Indentured" at the beginning of their apprenticeship

Agreed, its a term or carry over from another time when the apprentice actually paid for his tuition. The apprenticship papers/contract are called indenture papers and define length and conditions along with usually what is supposed to be taught etc.

I saw a comment that Allan Batty was the only living indentured wood turner in England today and it set me thinking and wondering

wheelinround
1st September 2011, 09:48 AM
:2tsup: good one Hughie anyone who did or does an apprenticeship is still Indentured those who went/go to Uni call it something else Contract I think :p

ian
1st September 2011, 09:32 PM
:2tsup: good one Hughie anyone who did or does an apprenticeship is still Indentured those who went/go to Uni call it something else Contract I think :pfrom memory, which may be false -- after all we're talking >35 years ago -- the term was "bonded"

Dengue
1st September 2011, 09:44 PM
Those going to Uni, back in the 60's, had Cadetships with employers in the electricity supply industry like ECNSW, Prospect County Council, Sydney County Council which had specifics about cadet wages during study period, fees and book expenses paid by employer, term of engagement after graduation, repayment of all fees if the graduate left the employer before a certain time after graduation etc

Cliff Rogers
1st September 2011, 09:47 PM
Dunno about indentured but most of them are certifiable. :D

Ed Reiss
1st September 2011, 10:02 PM
My recollection of being indentured was in the month of May, the 29th day, of the year 1971.
It happen at a church, there were a lot of witnesses present, and I was made to dress in a tux. The actual indenturing ceremony was followed by a lot of drinking, dancing, and having a good time ~~~ purportedly the last good time allowed and sanctioned by the "woman in white"!

Forty plus years later it's still status quo!

ian
1st September 2011, 10:40 PM
So what tool comes with a Ruby?

artme
3rd September 2011, 01:09 PM
Agreed, its a term or carry over from another time when the apprentice actually paid for his tuition. The apprenticship papers/contract are called indenture papers and define length and conditions along with usually what is supposed to be taught etc.

I saw a comment that Allan Batty was the only living indentured wood turner in England today and it set me thinking and wondering


Furthermore, the original contracts were written longhand and signed by both parties. The term indentured arose because, to prevent forgery and other chicanery, the contract was then cut in half and each signatory took a part. The cut was made as a waveyline; i.e. it had INDENTATIONS, hence the term indentured.

The same process was used for other contracts.

Seems to have little to dowith teeth.:D

Grumpy John
3rd September 2011, 02:10 PM
I wasn't aware that an apprenticeship in woodturning was available. I would have thought it would have been included as part of a patternmaker or cabinetmaker apprenticeship. You can't do an apprenticeship as a milling machine operator or metal lathe operator, they're just part of a fitting/machining/toolmaker apprenticeship.
Went looking for mine, still got 'em, although it's called a "Certificate of Prophicency".

180920

fxst
3rd September 2011, 02:30 PM
I doubt there would be many in Australia as cnc has taken over pretty much.
Another factor is most of the cnc stuff now comes from China (the country, not our member:D). I believe from a wonky memories (ahh the late 60's early 70's) most were employed in the pattern making or cabinet making industry as GJ said.:2tsup:
Pete

tea lady
3rd September 2011, 05:19 PM
:think: Maybe I am the closest thing to an indentured wood turner then. Although I don't know when I will in fact know enough to say I know enough. We ( and I:cool: )haven't exactly got a scheduled of what has to be learned or anything. :shrug: We just do what comes in the door. :cool: And I don't go to trade school or anything! Maybe I should? :hmm:

Grumpy John
3rd September 2011, 05:23 PM
TL you've certainly swept enough floors, made enough cups of tea/coffee, done enough errands and been made to wear ridiculous PPE to qualify as an apprentice :D :rolleyes:.

tea lady
3rd September 2011, 05:32 PM
TL you've certainly swept enough floors, made enough cups of tea/coffee, done enough errands and been made to wear ridiculous PPE to qualify as an apprentice :D :rolleyes:.I can't agree with you cos I think has a computer at the Canberra show. :D

RETIRED
3rd September 2011, 05:47 PM
Unfortunately there is no apprenticeship for Woodturners as such in Vic but it comes in Wood Machinig if I remember rightly.

NSW had the only pure Woodturning Apprenticeship but it was absorbed into another course.

Maybe some of the NSW woodturners could comment.

I know 1/2 dozen turners that were indentured turners in NSW,

rsser
3rd September 2011, 05:48 PM
Dredging up what I can recall of reading about the history ...

Craft guilds emerged from the Merchant guilds in the middle ages or later.

Typically a Master craftsman would train his son or sons in the craft, but could also take on someone else's. Who would live with the master and the payment would cover board for what could be up to seven years.

At that point the apprentice would aim to acquire journeyman status. There's some debate about what this meant. Either travel and work for other masters to gain experience, or be paid by the day for work in the workshop (from the French 'journee' which means 'day'.)

Next step was to acquire Master status which involved producing one or more 'masterpieces' which were examined by the Guild.

Technologically and commercially it was a closed shop, with the Guild determining prices, working hours and production methods.

There's some evidence of women occasionally inheriting their father's workshop and continuing the business, and some evidence of a strong female presence in eg. weaving.

So maybe in a few instances, a form of social PPE was a long skirt.

TL, might be worth a try ;-}

Cliff Rogers
3rd September 2011, 06:10 PM
George Hatfield would be the bloke to talk to.

Contributors (http://www.skillspublish.com.au/Contributors.htm)

powderpost
3rd September 2011, 07:45 PM
My trade apprenticeship indenture document was signed by both parties (me and my boss and witnesses) on 04/02/57, and that was for five years.

George Hatfield tells me that the wood turning centre of the Sydney Technical College, the last wood turning trade training school, has been closed and is very unlikely to re-open as a wood turning trade centre. Two machines have been kept as part of other trade training courses.

Wood turning as a trade is pretty much dead, too much competition from reproduction machines have cut the guts out of the prices and market for professional turners is too small.

There are very few people left who can make a living turning wood on a "standard" lathe.

So now it is up to us amateurs to make the few chair and table legs, now required.
Jim

tea lady
3rd September 2011, 07:58 PM
So maybe in a few instances, a form of social PPE was a long skirt.

TL, might be worth a try ;-}
:C I don' t think OH&S allows a skirt in a wood work shop.

Up ladders maybe.:rolleyes:

hughie
3rd September 2011, 08:17 PM
My trade apprenticeship indenture document was signed by both parties (me and my boss and witnesses) on 04/02/57, and that was for five years.



Yep mine was very much the same other than my father had to sign as well as I was a minor [16 ].

Allan at Wallan
4th September 2011, 11:31 AM
:C I don' t think OH&S allows a skirt in a wood work shop.

Up ladders maybe.:rolleyes:

You only get ladders in your stockings TL and also, it might pay
you to check up the rules on "indenture" ... you might find you no
longer have to make mud cakes for and there could also be
a pay rise for you.:2tsup:

Allan

ticklingmedusa
4th September 2011, 11:53 AM
:think: Maybe I am the closest thing to an indentured wood turner then. Although I don't know when I will in fact know enough to say I know enough. We ( and I:cool: )haven't exactly got a scheduled of what has to be learned or anything. :shrug: We just do what comes in the door. :cool: And I don't go to trade school or anything! Maybe I should? :hmm:

I think you are fortunate to be in a hands on / production situation.
It may not be a formal apprenticeship but it is a time proven way to learn.
I read somewhere likes the opera so the classics
would be an added bonus .

tea lady
4th September 2011, 12:05 PM
I think you are fortunate to be in a hands on / production situation.
It may not be a formal apprenticeship but it is a time proven way to learn.
I read somewhere likes the opera so the classics
would be an added bonus .That is certainly correct. With the added bonus of the sound track. :cool: He doesn't even complain of my singing! :D

ticklingmedusa
4th September 2011, 05:01 PM
The dusty running and the mask I use spare my family & pets from my vocal peregrinations :D