Not a DRO - An indicator instead.

[Anorak Bob]

For a while I have wanted to mount an indicator on the Y axis of my mill to facilitate the accurate repositioning of the horizontal spindle head. In my mind , a DRO would look garishingly out of place on this 49 year old machine. Schaublin did provide indicators as optional accessories in the olden days. The version of the bracket I've made is far simpler than the original which incorporated a number of castings. The original also featured a neat hinged cover to protect the dial when not in use.

I remember a comment Dave J made about "designs" evolving, you stand back and decide to whack off a bit more because you reckon it will be an improvement. This was one of those projects, no drawings, just made it up as I progressed. Schaublin's 50's and 60's products were typical for their time, curvaceous and beautiful. The later, 70's onwards gear had the squared off aesthetic. I'm sure I'd warm to it if I was so fortunate to own something from that more recent period. The newer accessories were squarish and therefore easier to make ( and to copy) hence the look of my additions to the mill.

If I could work out how the remove the tips from my Mahr and Compac indicators, I could use an extension to straddle the travel stop. Could be handy.

4E cast iron offcut coloured up with Blackfast.

BT

[Stustoys]

If I could work out how the remove the tips from my Mahr and Compac indicators,
Vice Grips?:wink: just kidding, I'm go wash my own mouth out.

Looks great BT.
How do you find the blackfast compares to oil blacking as far as rust goes?

Stuart

[Dave J]

Came out great as usual for you Bob, :2tsup: he Blackfast finished it of nicely as well.

There was a thread on the HSM a while back talking about designing things in your head or having to draw them. I was amazed to see how many could not picture the job in their head and needed a picture or drawing to understand it.
Evidently it must be a gift some of us have, I always thought it was normal and everyone could do it.
It doesn't mean one is better than the other, but I thought it interesting hearing how others think.

As for the tip, what ever you use to grip it, use some rag around it to stop any marks appearing. It is always a daunting job removing stuck ones.

Dave

[RayG]

Hi BT,

Beautiful work, that blackfast looks good, based on your results, I'll get some for a trial blackfast ltd : room temperature blacking of iron and steel (http://www.blackfast.com/)

I'm bemused by the line...

In my mind , a DRO would look garishingly out of place on this 49 year old machine.

You could always paint the DRO scales a drab pastel green... and replace the digital readout with a black bakelite analog meter... :D

As for the design process, I work the same way, start out with an idea and then let it evolve as you make it, sometimes you have to backtrack, but more often than not, you think of extra features, or easier ways of doing something as you go along. I find it hard to work to drawings without making changes as I go... :rolleyes:

Nice job.

Regards
Ray

PS for removing the indicator tip, use the tailstock chuck with a bit of cloth.

[Anorak Bob]

Boys,

The Compac is brand new. My concern is destroying the rack by exerting undue force on the shaft. I have a bunch of Baty indicators and the styli readily unscrew, the stainless steel extension shown was something I made years ago to fit them. Unfortunately the Batys have a 5/16" mount compared to the 8mm of their European counterparts. I had thought of making some reduction bushes enabling the fitting of various indicators but then thought "stuff it" too much trouble. I decided to stick with metric.

The Blackfast worked well because I left the cast iron in the blackening solution for a lot longer than the prescribed one minute, probably three. Maybe the solution looses some potency after numerous uses. The sump oil worked well on the travel stops I think because the stops had been brewed in the manganese dioxide / phosphoric acid solution that bubbled away on the kitchen stove during one of my earlier experiments. Not a process I was in a hurry to replicate. I haven't had encouraging results simply sump oiling cast iron.


The spontaneous design process works well in situations like this one. Bear in mind that during my 7 day a fortnight at work, I draw details. At the moment , it's some glazing and Alpolic cladding details for two roof lights in a small, maybe 1 1/2 million dollar house down in Fremantle. Last week it was some wall cladding details for an apartment building constructed during the sixties. I don't have the luxury of toying with the material in my hands, experimenting with proportion etc. I will sketch and discuss variations but it's not the same as playing around with the real thing. Designing for others is far removed from designing for yourself. Whilst I can draw I'm loathe to do it for myself.


Ray, I'm partial to drab pastel green and Bakelite. The Mahr moves in the latter direction.

BT

[azzrock]

hi every one. wonderful work and photos bob. seeing how far you have moved the cutting tool or table on a solidly mounted dial is very reassuring. .
Do you have to move that axis on you mill . during a job or just for set up?
If its not to much troble can you post a photo like 022 0r 013 showing the hole mill.
aaron

[Anorak Bob]

On some Euro mills, Deckel, Schaublin, Thiel, Perrin, Mikron.....the table is fixed on the Y axis and the horizontal spindle head moves to provide feed in that direction. The best finish is achieved using power feed which on my machine is limited to X and Z axes. But with care Aaron, a pretty acceptable finish is attainable by hand. The mill is an absolute joy to use.

My daughter Beck concentrating.

BT



http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f14/29153d1292379703-euro-mill-registry-becks-lamp-7-11-10-004-medium-.jpg (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f14/29153d1292379703-euro-mill-registry-becks-lamp-7-11-10-004-medium-.jpg)

[RayG]

Ray, I'm partial to drab pastel green and Bakelite. The Mahr moves in the latter direction.

BT

Hi BT,

I have a Mahr Federal Digital Dial Gauge, I thought Mahr was an American brand, but your Mahr appears to be made in Germany?

Regards
Ray

PS, Your Daughter looks like she knows what she's doing, must have a good teacher...

[Greg Q]

I think Bob does my favourite work of all the various forums. He's one of the few to whom the aesthetic considerations of a project go hand in hand with the utility of the piece.

His indicator is a Carl Mahr, a different beast to the Mahr-Federal. I like them the best and am fortunate enough to have found a few for relative pennies on ebay.

Greg...taking a break from studying for a minute. How is everyone?

[Anorak Bob]

Hello Ray,

The Federal brand is American. They were located in Providence, Rhode Island along with Brown and Sharpe. Mahr GmbH is located in Göttingen, Germany. Maybe they have a similar marketing arrangement to that of Tesa and Brown and Sharpe.

Beck has good hand skills. We worked together on a lamp she designed for a final year TAFE Interior Design project. I would have been more than happy to show her how to do shed stuff and let her loose. Sadly, she now lives in Melbourne.

BT

[Anorak Bob]

I think Bob does my favourite work of all the various forums. He's one of the few to whom the aesthetic considerations of a project go hand in hand with the utility of the piece.

His indicator is a Carl Mahr, a different beast to the Mahr-Federal. I like them the best and am fortunate enough to have found a few for relative pennies on ebay.

Greg...taking a break from studying for a minute. How is everyone?

Thank you Gregory.

How are things? I thought that you and young Pete must have been up to your necks in it hence the absence of correspondence.

The Mahrs I own have a very narrow range of measurement. The Compac wins in that respect. Compacs were the original indicators offered as accessories by Schaublin. I do love the form of the Mahr indicators. Got to be the bakelite look! :roll:.

BT

[Greg Q]

Bob, Pete has been submerged in work lately, and if he's like me, in a deep funk of fear and loathing. (Not in Las Vegas :wink:)

I bought a Carl Mahr conventional style recently...solid stainless with a faint gold hue to the dial. Let me see if I can find where I hid it.

GQ

[Anorak Bob]

Below are some dissection photos from an old post about the Zentimess. Whilst the rack is out of harm's way, I still reckon there is the potential for things to turn bad if I attempt to twist off the stylus. Maybe I'll walk away from the idea.

p.s. Ray, you may have already looked at this old post regarding Blackfast. If not....
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/blackening-not-kitchen-cookup-124959/

BT

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/163950d1299915683t-mahr-zentimess-oil-change-mahr-12-3-2011-003-medium-.jpg (http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/163950d1299915683-mahr-zentimess-oil-change-mahr-12-3-2011-003-medium-.jpg) http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/163958d1299917336t-mahr-zentimess-oil-change-mahr-12-3-2011-030-medium-.jpg (http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/163958d1299917336-mahr-zentimess-oil-change-mahr-12-3-2011-030-medium-.jpg)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/163960d1299917336-mahr-zentimess-oil-change-mahr-12-3-2011-035-medium-.jpg

[Greg Q]

Here's the conventional style Bob...It lacks that old world funkiness of the Zentimess but feels like it was carved from a solid block.

Greg

[RayG]

p.s. Ray, you may have already looked at this old post regarding Blackfast. If not....
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/blackening-not-kitchen-cookup-124959/

BT


Hi BT,

Thanks for that, I had missed that post, I've had mixed results with "Black Magic" sometimes it's good other times it's blotchy, I'll look at getting the kit from Blackfast Australia.

The indicator tip should come off without too much force, you might have to make up a brass clamp (if you don't want to risk it with a chuck), I just get a bit of 1/4" brass flat, drill a hole close to the size you want to clamp. Then cut a lengthwise slot with a hacksaw to act as a clamp. Drill and tap for a screw that closes the hacksaw slot and clamps the part.. I could do a sketch but I'm pretty sure you have the idea.. Put those vise grips well out of reach..:)

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

Gregory,

I will scan a few pages from my Mahr catalogue tomorrow and post them here. There is some info regarding your block.

Ray, Dave.

Pursuing the stylus removal a bit further. While I have the 13 set up in the horizontal mode for sawing, I will slit a small block of cast iron to make a clamp for the spindle of the indicator. It will remove any risk of mutilation while I try to free the stylus. Nothing fancy, just a block I can hold in the vise. I will rebore the hole to suit the Compac and Mitutoyo indicators that seem to have frozen styli. While I'm at it, I'll make a similar clamp for the stylus. Could use the hacksaw but the mill's poised, ready to go.

BT

[Dave J]

Hi Bob,
Just a thought,
If your clamp is wide enough, could you do a stepped hole with the 3 sizes in the one clamp? This way it could be put away for use latter on if you have a stuck one.

Dave

[Anorak Bob]

Excellent suggestion Dave. Thank you.

Bob.

[Anorak Bob]

All my "stuck" styluses became unstuck by simply holding the the stylus between the aluminium keepers on my bench vice and carefully rotating the indicator. Of course, I don't possess the required M2.5 x 4.5 tap and die to make an extension. Found an Osborn tap in Sydney on Ebay and being keen to avoid postal delays from the States, decided to take my chances on a Czech CZ die from Bulgaria. Might sound obscure but I've purchased quite a few taps and dies from this seller. Bit of luck, it might roll up before I head off.

BT

[Greg Q]

BT you might like to try my man Georgi Zaharov in Ukraine also. He's got the inside track on that funky ex-USSR stuff as well as some German.

Grigor Q.

search George Zaharov on ebay. I 'd link it but I'm on my iPad

[Anorak Bob]

I had thought an indicator fitted with an extension that enabled the straddling on the travel stop would be a worthwhile improvement. The Mahr's plunger is a delicate 4mm in diameter and with a 50 mm extension affixed, the setup becomes precarious. Some form of protection was needed.

I made the half sleeve from 1045. I discovered that the 8mm hole I had bored in the original cast iron holder was skewed. It was not apparent without the extension in place. Could have caused me some dimensional grief down the track if I fitted a long travel indicator. I bored the 8mm hole out to 9.5 to suit my Mitutoyos and made a slit brass reduction sleeve to suit the Mahr and Compac indicators. I will make a new extension with the knurling outboard of the sleeve.

It's amazing how easy it is to find time consuming piddly little jobs that facilitate procrastination. I had intended to lay some bricks yesterday, now maybe tomorrow. Procrastination is easy, the bricklaying is required under the lounge wall.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
Great work, looks like it came from the factory like that.

Why do you need to make a new extension?

"time consuming piddly little jobs" at least you finish yours.

Stuart

p.s. have you shown us the inside of the stop? I assume the Tee bolt has a hole through it.

[Anorak Bob]

No magic Stu


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/146747d1283760997-schaublin-mill-travel-stops-schaublin-13-horizontal-slide-stop-6.9.10-011-medium-.jpg


I will make a new extension because that one is a sloppy fit. I bought an adjustable 2.5mm die, made by Totem in England from a Ebay seller in Denmark this morning. Hopefully less slop and a more positive fit. I've realized after using these machines for a few years, that if something can turn to shi# when in use, it will.

BT

[Stustoys]

Thanks BT, keeping that one.

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi BT,

Beautiful work, I see what you mean by time consuming and fiddly... nice knurls... wish I could do knurls like that...

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

It's not difficult Ray.

I reckon good wheels are a prerequisite for a reasonable result.

The knurls are English, made by WDS and purchased from Blackwoods for about 30 dollars a pair maybe five years ago. You can find top quality American knurls on Ebay for a lot less.

The knurled items are 4140. The handle on my knurling tool provides sufficient leverage to bite into it. There is no way that the little Hercus could cope with the load involved in single wheel knurling.

BT

p.s. Another plug for a rear tool post. You can see what you are doing.




http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/175181d1309824909-knurling-tool-hercus-arl-knurling-tool-mounted-rear-toolpost-002-medium-.jpg

[Pete F]

Bob, Pete has been submerged in work lately, and if he's like me, in a deep funk of fear and loathing. (Not in Las Vegas :wink:)

Yep, I was still around, just crazy busy. Very nice work as per usual Bob. I like the reference to "Young" Pete, it was only when Greg made the comment that I realised you were probably referring to me :p

Where do you guys get the steel blackening materials here in Oz? Any idea of price? I typically just powder coat parts like this, but I guess that's not very traditional of me.

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

Hello Young Pete:U,

The details are here - http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/blackening-not-kitchen-cookup-124959/ http://www.blackfast.com/distributors/details.php?country=Australia

There are times when powdercoating would be my prefered option. The durability of the coating certainly beats the sprayed finishes I've applied. Obviously, there are also times when chemical blackening is the most suitable finish as it does not result in dimensional change or alter the temper of the steel. The stainless button head screws didn't colour up well in the Blackfast solution so I resorted to heat and sump oil. My intention is to replace then with countersunk screws. I bought a long 90 degree spotting drill on UK Ebay yesterday to enable the countersinking of the holes.

BT

[RayG]

Thanks BT,

I Appreciate the tips.

I have started shopping on ebay for better knurls... Form Rol GKS128 Knurl 5/8" x 1/4" Straight Teeth | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Form-Rol-GKS128-Knurl-5-8-x-1-4-Straight-Teeth-/380314961448?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588c89c628)

I should make a better tool holder and practice a bit..

Regards
Ray

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Ray,
I was taught to make the diameter to be knurled a multiple of the pitch of the knurls
Seems to work for me

Phil