Hardinge 5C Collet Brochure

[Anorak Bob]

More from the library. This time a small catalogue showing the 5C range produced by Hardinge. Might be of interest to some. Might aid Greg Q in the augmentation of his collection.

BT

[Abratool]

Bob
Very nice Collets, with a variety of uses.
Bruce:)

[Greg Q]

More from the library. This time a small catalogue showing the 5C range produced by Hardinge. Might be of interest to some. Might aid Greg Q in the augmentation of his collection.

BT

I am trying vewy vewy hard to be good Bob:-

I have just bought a Deckel part from Germany and now I have to go busking on Bourke St. to pay for the shipping. I wonder where I put my lederhosen and accordion? :oo:

[Anorak Bob]

http://www.iainclaridge.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/lederhosen_boys.jpg

You'd have a drawer full of long socks I imagine!

[Greg Q]

Yeah, you need the long ones with the garter at the top. You get yerself in a good slap dance and the last thing you need is a hose failure episode.

I was thinking more along the lines of Polka classics, but maybe a Heidelberg Castle style slap dance is the way to go: sure to be a crowd pleaser. Draws the kids in. I wonder where I can round up some like-minded Oktoberfest mavens?

You Swiss machine fans have got it good...You guys can sit around drinking hot chocolate and maybe give the ole' Alpen Horn the odd blaaaat.:D

[Anorak Bob]

If you fail to locate your's let me know the size and preferred colour. I'm sure I'll be able to choose from a selection of post Fest, lightly abused lederhosen when in Munchen next month.:U

BT

[Greg Q]

Speaking of slap dances...I'd like to put the boots to my 5C collet seller. They just arrived, chewed up and rusty. Grrrh!

[Anorak Bob]

Yeah, rust removes the shine from the purchase:no:. Sadly, it's an experience we've both shared.

p.s. I should have asked earlier, what did you buy. A spiral milling attachment?

[Greg Q]

No, I got the two-jaw chuck that looks like a vise for the dividing head.

I don't think I'd take a spiral milling gismo if it was free...just more stuff to store and never use. There is a rare and useful gadget here that I could get but I don't think I'd ever use it, and its $500.

I "won" a very rare original F.Deckel dial indicator last year on GermBay for €18 but the putz seller decided he wanted €160 for shipping. He got my best wishes and nothing else.

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

I don't think I'd take a spiral milling gismo if it was free...

Can I tempt you? Have a look at "le diviseur differentiel" 1:49 into the clip.

Le Fraisage - Partie 2 - Les accessoires et diverses fraises - YouTube

[Greg Q]

Yeah I know, they are cool as hell, but have you seen Singer's price for one? As much as I paid for the entire mill + zubehors almost.

They all seem to be in unused condition (TOP! Zustand!) too which makes me wonder if they were ever used in anger.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

No, I got the two-jaw chuck that looks like a vise for the dividing head.

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/18/p1000698a.jpg
Hi Greg, I'd guess it's something similar to this:)
I was browsing around the forum and found a pic of your Deckel FP1 from last year, the accompaning post said that you were planning to give it a refurbishment? Just wondering how this is progressing?
I have an RTM - 2 (Japanese FP1 replica) that I may give similar treatment.

[Greg Q]

Hi Brian...yes the zweibackenfuter looks exactly like that. As you know the Riken and Deckel were effectively identical. Did you get your Riken a couple of months ago on ebay by chance? I asked the seller of that mill (which was wonderfully equipped) to sell the two-jaw chuck separately but he declined. As it turns out the deckel item popped up shortly afterward, as did the very small special boring head which I bought also.

The mill refurb is stalled right now. I have not decided if I will scrape it first or get it running and assess it further. It has been mostly painted but I need to re-wire it and otherwise tidy up some aspects like way wipers and oilers. The x-axis screw and nut has been replaced and other little improvements made.

I need also to make some permanent storage for the (now) complete pile of attachments and accessories as well as continue work on another mill and lathe project.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

Hi Brian...yes the zweibackenfuter looks exactly like that. As you know the Riken and Deckel were effectively identical. Did you get your Riken a couple of months ago on ebay by chance? I asked the seller of that mill (which was wonderfully equipped) to sell the two-jaw chuck separately but he declined. As it turns out the deckel item popped up shortly afterward, as did the very small special boring head which I bought also.
Greg
Hi Greg, yes it was the one listed a few months ago (I'd narrowly missed out on a real tidy aciera f4 & 95% of its accesories, and luckily the Riken showed up soon after and the funds were available) .
I picked it up a few weeks ago down at mount waverly and brought it home (a bit over a thousand clicks - one way), and I'm now awaiting the electrician to connect the box and put a 20 amp plug on. The former owner as you probably know used to make those tangential diamond tools.

I am pleased to have scored as many accesories with it as i did, because the cost to buy all these individually and not even have them matched/ integrated to the machine (as they are with that concept/style of machine) would be astronomical. Does yours have a high speed head with the independent motor? I'd look to get one - however i'm not sure just how interchangeable genuine fp1 attachments are going to be with the Riken so i'll have to do some carefull measurement and comparison?

And if you have the slotting head, do you have any experience with it?


I do appologise if i'm sending the thread off on a tangent

[Greg Q]

Hi Brian...Don't worry about going off on a tangent. Any thread that I get involved in quickly goes that way.

I didn't know that the Riken came from the tangential tool holder guy (speaking of tangents). Has he retired?

My Deckel came with the slotter, divider, Wholhaupter boring head, vertical, horizontal supports, universal table, Clarkson, and arbor and a few collets.
Since then I bought (and all at a steal, FWIW) the high speed head, microscope, the vernier dial for the dividing head, an original rotary table, slotting tools, a fixed table, the zweibackenfutter and the small boring attachment. So, apart from the helical milling and punch milling tools it is complete. As an aside, it seems that the less useful, the rarer and more expensive a Deckel accessory becomes. I imagine that's true of all these machines.

I saw that Aciera and thought that it would go that high. I think it was cheapish at that price owing to the truck load of accessories. As you know, a European universal toolroom mill is only as good as the mass of (weapons-grade unobtanium) attachments you have. :wink:

Let me know if you need any measurements of my do-dads.

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

So Gregory,

You've ended up with a native rotab? I though I would surely find a shop here selling cheap Hofmanns and Walters but alas, no. Heaps of beautiful engineering but sadly no tool shops in the tourist belt. I should have done more homework.:doh:

Auf Wiedersehen
BT

[Greg Q]

Yes Bob, the Walter I bought was never shipped, and now the seller is on hard times, so that money is lost. The Deckel table was on Gray's, but not described as such. I paid much less than half of what they sold one for last week, so I suppose there's some solace in that.

BTW, I hope you have a great time over there.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

Hi Greg and Bob


I didn't know that the Riken came from the tangential tool holder guy (speaking of tangents). Has he retired?
Greg
Des "retired" I think about 5 years ago, selling on the business to the current owner Gary Sneesby who is a really good friend of his. Des replaced the little Riken that he sold to me with an FP4.

This vernier dial for the dividing head that you mention, how does this work? are there attachment points at the bottom end of the spindle for this? I remember seeing the ring down there, graduated in degrees, but not much provision for mounting anything.
It isnt an optional extra that i've seen mentioned in any of the repro brochures that i've got.

Your Wohlhaupter boring head, is that the UPA3? I'm trying to find one without much luck.
I missed out on a roughly equivalent sized japanese Korouda, on the weekend that I chased to around $700 on ebay (I though that should have been enough to secure it). So if your scouting around, where ever your good source is for all these nice attachments that you've picked up, and see a pretty complete UPA3 (or equivalent) i'd be very interested and appreciative.

regards
GM

[Greg Q]

Hi...

I haven't really inspected how it mounts to the dividing head or rotary table, but it is a complete unit...I'll have to photo it when I get time. I bought that from Arno Martens in Toronto (He posts on PM from time to time in the Deckel section). He may have some more as he ended up with a lot of old spares when Cosa closed down years ago.

I find most of my things on German ebay...you have to use Google translate and ask them to agree to send it to you which can be hit-and-miss. I bought my centering microscope, boring head and slotter tooling as well as my AMF helical clamps from one guy so the shipping wasn't too bad. A friend visiting Germany was kind enough to fetch back my high speed head for me in her luggage. I'm so glad that she was an otherwise light packer! (And strong)

There seems to be a surge of boring heads on Ebay USA lately as well as that bunch of tooling on Grays in Mortlake last week.

Also...re the Wohlhaupter: I think it's a -3. It might be a -2. Does your machine take an MT4 tool with the Deckel S20 X 2 buttress threaded drawbar?

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

I was looking at an FP1 yesterday at the Deutsches Museum in Munich. They are petite in comparison to my 13. A UPA-3 would gobble up too much of the limited vertical clearance on the Schaublin. I would think the Deckel would suffer the same plight. The largest boring head supplied by Schaublin for the 13 had a body diameter of 65 mm, smaller than the -3. I have a feeling that the Swiss may have stuck with an indigenous product made by Rawyler. I did see a beautiful boring and facing head with the appropriate arbor, made by Kaiser, on Ebay UK for 995 Pound, buy it now. Came with a fitted box. I wasn't tempted.

There has been a profusion of UPA-3s on US Ebay but most have Moore tapers. Must have been the boring head of choice for their jig borers. I have seen them offered for as little as $250 but without the removable arbor, they would be next to useless. UPA-2s appear thin on the ground.

Close to the FP1 was an FP2A complete with tractor cab enclosure and cabinets of control gear that would fill a small bedroom. Next to the mill was a Deckel DE 10 spark erosion machine. Just the tip of the iceberg. I took one thousand photos.

GQ, my favourite exhibit was not a machine tool but a 1931 Junkers A50 ci Junior. I will post some photos.

From Lucerne

BT

[Greg Q]

Hi Bob!

I just this week recieved the Deckel proprietary boring head on a 20mm shank like the one pictured below. It only protrudes 48mm from the spindle, plus the tool length. I imagine its going to be my go-to everyday boring device.

Greg

[Greg Q]

Hi Greg and Bob

This vernier dial for the dividing head that you mention, how does this work? are there attachment points at the bottom end of the spindle for this? I remember seeing the ring down there, graduated in degrees, but not much provision for mounting anything.
It isnt an optional extra that i've seen mentioned in any of the repro brochures that i've got.

regards
GM

The dividing head and rotary table share the same actuating spindle details, hence the various plates can be shared, as well as the degree index vernier.

Here are some photos of the assembly. I can't find a part number apart from what's on the box, but be aware that Deckel discarded their old part number scheme years ago and there is no cross reference. Arno can be found on Practicalmachinist if you want to inquire about getting one of these. I think he had more of them.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

A UPA-3 would gobble up too much of the limited vertical clearance on the Schaublin. I would think the Deckel would suffer the same plight.

Now I think about it it probably would be fairly limiting, - The reason I had been looking at the UPA 3, is that was what had featured in the reproduction sales literature for the FP1 I had got. I suppose I figured that it must have been a pretty close match for the capabilities of the little deckel, as that was what they had been pushing in their brochures (but i'll certainly give it closer consideration now).
Enjoy the rest of your trip Bob, and if you felt like sharing when you get back - those deckel pic's sound interesting.


Hi Bob!
I just this week recieved the Deckel proprietary boring head on a 20mm shank like the one pictured below. It only protrudes 48mm from the spindle, plus the tool length. I imagine its going to be my go-to everyday boring device.

Greg
Should be a real handy bit of gear
I had also seen this in the repro fp1 manual - (and i'll admit didn't give it a second thought, but i'm getting much keener on it now) however I suppose the only thing it gives away to the wohlhaupter, is a little bit of size capacity, and the automatic feature. If you don't mind, how much did you pick this up for? (as i'd now have to seriously consider this instead of the wohlhaupter)
and yes like the deckel fp1 (i've got to remember mine is actually a Riken rtm-2, ) the main spindle, horizontal spindle (& dividing head spindle? I assume) are all a number 4 Morse.

That vernier scale looks real nice, I didn't even consider that it may be fitted inplace of the dividing plates. I have contacted Arno, and he is having a look for me to see if he has anymore of these stashed away.

Have you seen the Thiel Milling machine thats on ebay currently in sydney?

[Hunch]

UPA-3 is still being pushed for the FP1 in a late 80s brochure I notice.

Mortlake ones were around 600 +, once all the nasty add-ons accumulate.

There was a lovely virtually unused D'andrea at a live auction a year or so that went for around a third of that, if you could counter cross-ethnicities....pity about what it would cost for the right arbor.


That vernier scale looks real nice, I didn't even consider that it may be fitted inplace of the dividing plates. I have contacted Arno, and he is having a look for me to see if he has anymore of these stashed away.

One on ebay de just the other day....might be still.

[Greg Q]

That looks like a reasonably nice Thiel 158. No attachments though which kind of defeats the purpose of a toolmaker's mill. That model is probably more like an FP2 wih the long-reach head with longer y axis travel.

Just as an aside I have read three ads this week claiming something to be "sort" after. I sought clarification of sorts but, alas...

I hope Arno comes through with a part for you. The unit I showed is still covered in cosmoline; it's very nice.

Greg

On edit: Although it was only last month I forget what exactly I paid. I think it was 120 Euro. It was not described as Deckel, and the seller ended it early on my offer. I don't get the impression that they are common. Deckel called it the boring chuck FZA 1. Avail in inch or metric. Stock numbers 2140 201011 in inch and 2140 01011 metric and 2140 00011 metric with MT4 shank. The unit has two mounting holes for 10mm boring bars and traverses 15mm total. Looks like it'll do a 50mm bore.

On further edit I just realised that it will also mount a lathe tool bit to go out to maybe 100 dia.

[BrianLara400*]

Arno, didnt have any left - but he was very helpfull


"Supplementary Indexing Device", part # 6032.
Zusatzteilvorrichtung

Now i know what to look for Franz Singer has two in his ebay store at the moment.

[Greg Q]

Arno, didnt have any left - but he was very helpfull

Now i know what to look for Franz Singer has two in his ebay store at the moment.

Franz has some pretty sporting prices, doesn't he? Walter is the guy to communicate in English with, but they are very formal.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

You'd better define "sporting" for me Greg:U
I havent picked one of those up yet, there was another bloke who was selling one over there for 100 AUD less than singer, but (here's the catch) wouldn't post outside Germany.

I dont know what happened with the orientation of the pictures, they werent uploaded to imageshack that way - so I'm buggered if I can work it out.
Here's my latest fp1 (RTM-2) related purchases:
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5233/wohlhaupterupa3boringhe.jpg
The Wohlhaupter I've had a few weeks, have done a few jobs with it now and am very impressed. This came from ebay de and at the same time I bought a lot on ebay italy with a heap of Kuroda spares in it, most of which are interchangeable.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3589/centricator.jpg
And my centricator showed up today from ebay france, and it appears to be original & complete apart from the Mitutoyo clock. I haven't had a chance to field test this yet.

[Greg Q]

Was that you outbidding me on the French Centricator?:D Bummer. We should have compared notes, although I don't remember being the second highest bidder. Please let me know if you are chasing any mt4/mk4 stuff as we may be in the same pool and I don't want either of us paying too much.

Franz's prices are adventurous...meaning that he seems to be willing to list things for a long time waiting for a buyer. I'd rather go to him for the unobtainable things like repro speed plates and bellows etc. Otherwise, for things like collets and tooling his prices are...what's the German word? Oh yeah...abenteuerlich. No, that's not it...verdammt Diebstahl may be closer to the mark.

Best

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

I have to ask. What can a Centricator do that a simple vertical DTI can not?

I have seen, fondled but not used a Centricator. I would have one simply because they are a thing of mechanical joy. Schaublin didn't offer one in their catalogues. They did list French made OPL optical micrometers so non native wasn't an issue. Singer had a number of Centricators for sale last time I looked. Have Heidenhain et al put an end to their use?

BT

[Greg Q]

I have a genuine Blake coax indicator that I scored for a steal. It is accurate to perhaps a 0.02mm on a good day, probably a little less. The centricator is supposed to be at least twice as accurate.

I also have an as-yet unused Haimer 3D taster that should perform all edge location chores so with a bit of iteration you could find bore centres with it.

I just want one to feed the OCD aspects and so will probably never have one given the price they fetch.

I was looking at a Genuine Deckel sine bar on ebay last week...opening price €290; no bidders. Given that sine bars are a commodity item I thought that price a bit stupid.

On a better note I just scored five MK4 collets and the dividing head draw bar for a good price, all of which I needed.

Greg

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
I believe like the Blake they can find a center mark. Not sure how that could be done with a DTI.
Other than that they are really just a DTI that doesnt turn so are much more
user friendly.
Also the Blakes get less accurate as the size of the shoulder/bore increases. The centricator should be as accurate through its size range(?).

Stuart

[Greg Q]

Hi BT,
I believe like the Blake they can find a center mark. Not sure how that could be done with a DTI.
Other than that they are really just a DTI that doesnt turn so are much more
user friendly.
Also the Blakes get less accurate as the size of the shoulder/bore increases. The centricator should be as accurate through its size range(?).

Stuart

Stuart is right about the Blakes, plus there is an sensitivity degradation with the longer probes as you'd expect.

[Anorak Bob]

I did not realise they could locate the center of a hole. I now have a rekindled interest. Thanks Stu.

I found an alternative, non budget sine table for GQ. I imagine the thing would be more versatile than the Deckel offering. The seller will even ship to Australia.
No.3 MOORE 12.5" x 14" Micro Sine Table | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/No-3-MOORE-12-5-x-14-Micro-Sine-Table-/130522713323?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item1e63c28ceb)

BT

[Greg Q]

Thanks Bob...too bad Heather already bought me a belt for Christmas:?

I think that's a pretty adventurous ask...$8,800 for a sine table. Who even uses those things anymore?

Here's the Deckel thing I was referring to for €290:

[Anorak Bob]

Target offer refunds...

I can recall seeing an illustation of the sine attachment being used to set up a head for a stint of angular milling. It looked a bit awkward. Like you need three hands.

BT

[Greg Q]

Yeah, plus it's got magnets on two sides which might end up being more of a frustration than its worth as it would always find some swarf to screw up the accuracy.

I already have a shop-made sine bar that was gifted to me that I suspect I may only very rarely use.

GQ

[Stustoys]

Hi Greg,
Thanks for that table, it confirms something I'd always visualized but never bothered to check the math on. As the bores get larger the accuracy comes back(not been much of an issue as I'm not boring 12" all that often :) ) Still its nice to know.

Such a pretty sine table(though why all the flaking? I wonder if thats factory). At that price I think you'll have plenty of time to save up Greg.

Stuart

[Greg Q]

I don't think that there's any way that flaking is factory. Moore were known for precision to an astonishing standard. Gratuitous flaking, especially uneven flaking, would have been anathema to them. I have a couple of their books and cannot recall ever seeing anything flaked.

I was going to mention it earlier as it was the first thing I noticed, jarring as it is.

Greg

[Greg Q]

Back to the task at hand:

Deckel Fräsmaschine Zusatzteilvorrichtung für Deckel Rundtisch | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Deckel-Frasmaschine-Zusatzteilvorrichtung-Deckel-Rundtisch-/170750480384?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item27c1859000#ht_500wt_1114)

[Anorak Bob]

Back to the task at hand:

Deckel Fräsmaschine Zusatzteilvorrichtung für Deckel Rundtisch | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Deckel-Frasmaschine-Zusatzteilvorrichtung-Deckel-Rundtisch-/170750480384?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item27c1859000#ht_500wt_1114)

Obviously a task not being taken too seriously, it's still for sale!

[Anorak Bob]

Same seller. Same frosting.

11" MOORE 'Ultra Precise' Hz./Vt. Rotary Table | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-MOORE-Ultra-Precise-Hz-Vt-Rotary-Table-/370485196176?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item5642a37590)

[Stustoys]

I guess as I'm not likely to buy it the useless flaking doesnt matter to me, but it does seem a pitty.

Those adds look like the sort of thing I'd be running if SWMBO ever talking me into trying to sell some of the "stuff" in my shed lol. "no no I'm trying to sell it really I am"

Still an interesting piece of gear, anyone know what the chart on the inside of the lid is trying to tell us?

Stuart

[Abratool]

Same seller. Same frosting.

11" MOORE 'Ultra Precise' Hz./Vt. Rotary Table | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-MOORE-Ultra-Precise-Hz-Vt-Rotary-Table-/370485196176?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item5642a37590)

Bob
I would like to own this. Just to open the box every so often & just stare at it :2tsup:
regards
Bruce:)

[RayG]

I think that's a pretty adventurous ask...$8,800 for a sine table. Who even uses those things anymore?


Ahem... looks at floor, shuffles feet uneasily, that would be me... I have been using that Omer Robbins compound sine table a bit, for what it does it's an essential setup tool. The downside is I don't have gage blocks, so every job starts with making custom gage blocks. But for $8800, in the immortal words of Darryl Kerrigan.... "tell him he's dreaming..."




Such a pretty sine table(though why all the flaking? I wonder if thats factory). At that price I think you'll have plenty of time to save up Greg.
Stuart

Aren't they usually hardened (I mean, really hard) and ground, flaking that sort of surface would be tough going, it's not like it's induction hardened cast...

Strange stuff...

Regards
Ray

[Steamwhisperer]

It says it's an angular calculation chart Stuart

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Circa 1955. Illustrations from Holes, Contours and Surfaces, published by Moore Special Tool Company and an earlier Ebay offering.

[Greg Q]

I was just reading "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy, and to my surprise and embarrassment Moore did flake quite a few of their surfaces.

Here's that chart:

[Anorak Bob]

[QUOTE=RayG;

The downside is I don't have gage blocks, so every job starts with making custom gage blocks. But for $8800, in the immortal words of Darryl Kerrigan.... "tell him he's dreaming..."

Regards
Ray[/QUOTE]

Hey Ray,

If pussy whisker perfection wasn't required could you get by with a shaper gauge miked to the correct dimension as a substitute for gauge blocks?

BT

[Anorak Bob]

I was just reading "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy, and to my surprise and embarrassment Moore did flake quite a few of their surfaces.

Here's that chart:

Looks like we're playing Snap!

[Greg Q]

I cannot recall if "Holes... has the chapter on how their good rotary tables were made. Foundations does ...It would make an interesting post.

Greg

Snap...:wink:

[Stustoys]

Moore did flake quite a few of their surfaces.

Hi Greg/BT,
Do they give any reason as to why? seems silly to me to take a wonderfully flat plat e and machine 105(?) away. Its not like they are ways and need oil pockets.

+1 for the shaper gauge. Something else to add to the shopping list.

Stuart

p.s. thanks for the chart, makes sense now.

[Greg Q]

Hi Stuart...

I'll need to re-read either of those books again when I have more time. I'm guessing that they did it to enhance the bling factor? Oh! Maybe as tattle-tales to show if the surface is wearing? That's the only explanation I can conjure up right now.

I didn't want to get distracted as I am studying tonight for a simulator tomorrow night, but I did read that they made a unique worm gear lap for each table they produced. The lap was scrapped after one use.

Greg

[Greg Q]

Oh what the hell...

It's all explained in this PDF:

[Stustoys]

Hi Greg,
Thanks for that.
Back to study.

Stuart

p.s. and thanks for the pdf!

[Anorak Bob]

I cannot recall if "Holes... has the chapter on how their good rotary tables were made. Foundations does ...It would make an interesting post.

Greg

Snap...:wink:

GQ,

If you are interested in posting the chapter I am interested in reading it.

The table was available in (I think) 3 grades of accuracy. A couple of weeks ago, an Ebay seller, "ReedsOlio" had a Moore Rotary Table Brochure on offer. Neat, though sadly not an abundance of pages and given the unlikelyhood of owning a Moore table, I let it go.

BT

Edit, Scanned and posted while I'm still struggling with the layout of the keyboard! Thank you Gregory.:2tsup:

[BrianLara400*]

On a better note I just scored five MK4 collets and the dividing head draw bar for a good price, all of which I needed.
Greg
The riken came with a complete set of the 20mm shank spring collets and the adapting collet sleeve to No4mt, I may chase some of the bigger No4 collets to allow me to grip up to 1"/25mm Max rather than 5/8"
Deckel Fräsmaschine Zusatzteilvorrichtung für Deckel Rundtisch | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Deckel-Frasmaschine-Zusatzteilvorrichtung-Deckel-Rundtisch-/170750480384?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item27c1859000#ht_500wt_1114)
I'm pretty sure that was the same one I saw, but from memory (it was prob 6-8 weeks ago now) he wouldnt post ouside germany, is there anyway around this? has anyone ever used one of those mail forwarding services?

You havent seen a faceplate for the dividing head on sale anywhere in your travels?
I've got the genuine riken one (serialised to all the other vices & attachments) which is pristine and I feel it would be a shame to drill holes etc in it (akin to killing a unicorn).

[BrianLara400*]

I have to ask. What can a Centricator do that a simple vertical DTI can not?

I have seen, fondled but not used a Centricator. I would have one simply because they are a thing of mechanical joy. Schaublin didn't offer one in their catalogues. They did list French made OPL optical micrometers so non native wasn't an issue. Singer had a number of Centricators for sale last time I looked. Have Heidenhain et al put an end to their use?

BT
The "thing of mechanical joy" point, probably carrys a certain amount of weight - But that is probably also the reason that we own the machines that we do:U.

The Centricator presenting the full clock face to the user is a handy feature and I feel (having looked at it and deduced rather than giving it a work out yet) with the range of probes/fingers etc included may more readily give access to confined and partially obsured surfaces but also as pointed out sacrifices a degree of sensitivitey over larger spans.
Apparently Gary and Des (the diamond tool holder bloke) sourced one for their Schaublins, and rate them highly for praticality of use. As you say, it wont be a genuine accesory.

Dro's have relegated a lot of "interesting" measuring solutions, trav-a-dial etc

[Greg Q]

You havent seen a faceplate for the dividing head on sale anywhere in your travels?
I've got the genuine riken one (serialised to all the other vices & attachments) which is pristine and I feel it would be a shame to drill holes etc in it (akin to killing a unicorn).
I have some of those Deckel S20 collets too, but thought the MT4/MK4 ones would offer some advantages, like the 1" bore size. I bought some from RC Machines in Luxembourg...the same stuff that Singer sells for a lot less money. Also their are chinese ones sold by 800watt on US ebay...he'll ship here. You have to cut them down and make some thread adapters. Imperial only, but cheap.

I don't know that I've even seen a faceplate for the dividing head. I have a Zweibackenfuter (short back and sides, I think it means) 2 jaw chuck as well as the three jaw, but I would like a faceplate. Any chance of a picture?

I'd also like a larger chuck on a MT4 taper to bung into the horizontal spindle...handy for those large diameter turning jobs.

WRT to Germans unwilling to export: Its like pulling teeth with some of those guys. And also hard to get them to take Paypal even when I offer to pay their fees. Then they get cranky when their bank charges them to receive the wire transfer of funds that they insisted upon.

I have a friend's ancient mother's address in Germany, but for obvious reasons that's not for heavy items or to use too often. I'm not aware of any forwarding service in Germany, but would like one.

Greg (still reeling from the wire transfer reaming I got this morning from my bank)

[BrianLara400*]

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg819/scaled.php?server=819&filename=faceplatebushing.jpg&res=medium
I suppose it is the sort of thing that could be made fairly easily and tailored to requirements.
The split bushing on the underside of the faceplate is threaded to match the spindle nose of the dividing head. (45mm major dia for the male thread x 3.0mm pitch) Im not sure if the thread conforms to some German or Japanese standard as it wasnt one listed on the solitary chart I happened to consult, could be different for your Deckel dividing head.
Face plate 250 dia roughly 25mm thick (as its contoured), and there is about 50mm worth of the split bushing.
You can see the thread start must have coincided with a void in the casting, but quite nicely made. On the mill and accessories that jewelled finish on the machined surfaces features a fair bit.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg576/scaled.php?server=576&filename=faceplatetop.jpg&res=medium

[BrianLara400*]

I'd also like a larger chuck on a MT4 taper to bung into the horizontal spindle...handy for those large diameter turning jobs................
..................I'm not aware of any forwarding service in Germany, but would like one.

So what do you do there? Mount an adapted toolpost/holder on your table and use it for OD turning? or is the toolpost sufficiently high enough to completely allow facing off?

I don’t know if any exist in Germany, I just assumed they must have been a pretty common establishment right around the world.
I know people use them to source gun parts out of suppliers in the US, all strictly legal of course because it would still have to clear customs at both ends. But its mainly a method to circumvent sellers who straight out wont ship int’l, or sellers who feel the particular item is too large to ship intl.
Maybe it is strictly an American phenomenon?

[Abratool]

Hey Ray,

If pussy whisker perfection wasn't required could you get by with a shaper gauge miked to the correct dimension as a substitute for gauge blocks?

BT
Bob
I do not own a set of slip gauges & as a result use a planer gauge & a micrometer as a substitute, when setting up sine bars etc.
This has worked well for me.
regards
Bruce:)

[Bryan]

I don't get why you would design a faceplate with no slots or holes. How are you supposed to fix anything to it, Superglue? :?

[RayG]

I don't get why you would design a faceplate with no slots or holes. How are you supposed to fix anything to it, Superglue? :?

Good question, I think it's got something to do with unicorns... :D

Regards
Ray
PS Just kidding BrianLara400*, I wouldn't drill holes in it either...

[Stustoys]

I don't get why you would design a faceplate with no slots or holes. How are you supposed to fix anything to it, Superglue? :?
Hi Bryan,
If BrianLara400's a woody he might just stick things to it.

Hi Greg,
Finished reading your pdf. So many 0's after the ".". The care that goes into building those things and what they have to think of is amazing. Glad its not often I worry about oil film thickness while milling.

Stuart

[Greg Q]

So what do you do there? Mount an adapted toolpost/holder on your table and use it for OD turning? or is the toolpost sufficiently high enough to completely allow facing off?

I don’t know if any exist in Germany, I just assumed they must have been a pretty common establishment right around the world.
I know people use them to source gun parts out of suppliers in the US, all strictly legal of course because it would still have to clear customs at both ends. But its mainly a method to circumvent sellers who straight out wont ship int’l, or sellers who feel the particular item is too large to ship intl.
Maybe it is strictly an American phenomenon?

You can mount the lathe tool in a vice or any other holder that's handy, as long as it points a true radius to the centre it doesn't matter how high it is (I gather).

I use a couple of forwarders in the US with great success. I will investigate the German possibilities and report back.

[Greg Q]

And seconds later:

Germany Address & Mail Forwarding (http://www.addressgermany.com)

I am on dial up in this flea bag so I am waiting for that site to load still.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

Personally I'm more of a duct tape and zip tie's, kind of bloke:;.

Ray, I'm glad can you see my reluctance in turning the faceplate into swiss cheese.

Drill and tapping where necesary must be the way this Freidrich Deckel rooster intended, as there are a few demonstated photo's of it in the sales literature i've got.

[BrianLara400*]

And seconds later:

Germany Address & Mail Forwarding (http://www.addressgermany.com)

I am on dial up in this flea bag so I am waiting for that site to load still.

Greg
I'll have a closer look later, but it does seem possitive
thanks for that greg

[Anorak Bob]

I wandered onto Franz Singer's site a few minutes ago and realized why he has a number of Centricators for sale :o

Centricator C III NEU für Deckel Fräsmaschine | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Centricator-C-III-NEU-Deckel-Frasmaschine-/380118011332?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item5880cc8dc4)

He also has a tee slotted faceplate. Interesting face fixing.

Planscheibe 310 mm für Deckel NC-Teilapparat | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Planscheibe-310-mm-Deckel-NC-Teilapparat-/380178432047?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item588466802f)

Had a win on Ebay France last night. A seller had a Schaublin E32 (not ER) collet chuck listed under one of the more obscure (for us) taper aliases, SA30. Same as SK30 and ISO30, similar to NMTB30. Single bidder, mine for 15 Euro. With shipping, a touch less than a Chinese chuck.

GQ put me onto Continental Ebay. "Je ne parle pas Francais, vous parle Anglais" puts me in the good books with the French. I now need to know how to butter up the Deutschlanders.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
One thing I forgot to mention about these centre finders. They use a lot of vertical height. I just measured mine and its needs 165mm from the face of the spindle to the work piece. The Centricators would be around the same by the look of it.

Its still a thing of beauty though.

Stuart

[Bryan]

GQ put me onto Continental Ebay. "Je ne parle pas Francais, vous parle Anglais" puts me in the good books with the French. I now need to know how to butter up the Deutschlanders.

BT

Bob, maybe the French can give you some pointers on that? :roflmao:
(Apologies to Francophiles)

[Greg Q]

I'll pay that.

Goes away muttering "La plus ca change, la plus ca mêmes chose"

Any one want to buy a genuine French infantry rifle? Only thrown down once.

Gregoire.

[Greg Q]

I wandered onto Franz Singer's site a few minutes ago and realized why he has a number of Centricators for sale :o

Centricator C III NEU für Deckel Fräsmaschine | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Centricator-C-III-NEU-Deckel-Frasmaschine-/380118011332?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item5880cc8dc4)

He also has a tee slotted faceplate. Interesting face fixing.


GQ put me onto Continental Ebay. "Je ne parle pas Francais, vous parle Anglais" puts me in the good books with the French. I now need to know how to butter up the Deutschlanders.

BT

I just use Google translate for all my babelfish needs. It seems to be good enough to make yourself understood--its much better than earlier attempts at translation. Its a lot better than when I try to use French and end up with a fried grapefruit sandwich.

That fixing on Brian's faceplate is the same as Singer's, and the same as the base of my two jaw chuck. It is roughly like a threaded lathe nose I guess.

BryanLara400*'s faceplate is way too nice to Gregorise. Brian, I may have to BOLO for a suitable lathe faceplate to modify.

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

Alain, the Frenchman I purchased the chuck from couldn't speak English. Where there's a will there's a way. The weeb makes it all possible.:U


''Hello, I do not speak English but I pass through translator on the weeb.c' is possible for the sending, I saw the tariffs they are 26.40 euros for Australia. I wish to be paid in euros if you gain the bidding. Cordially, regards Alain"

BT

The French throw down. Gives another meaning to the expression.

[Hunch]

And seconds later:

Germany Address & Mail Forwarding (http://www.addressgermany.com/)

I am on dial up in this flea bag so I am waiting for that site to load still.

Greg

Have a few concerns there!

Been asked by a overseas vendor for passport scans in the past, required by the freight company supposedly - rang the local agent and it was not in their policies.

I did find someone near the Swiss border a while back....should be in the first few pages of Google results with my attention span. Unfortunately, 230kg a bit beyond them and then you have to contend with the rates out of europe.:~

[Greg Q]

Photocopies passport eh? Pas Moi, merci. :no:

I have been hosed a couple of times by having stuff shipped DHL out of Europe. In both cases it took over eight weeks, €85 for 5 kilos. Thats got to be the worst value shipping in the world.

For those heavier items my only idea right now would be to try and find a good broker over here. I used to hear good things about Schenker, but I think they've been swallowed up by DB now, as has Bax Global, the other good broker that I used a few years ago.

I know the freight brokers will pay 1/10th of retail for air freight. How much of that they pass on I don't know, but it would have to be good to make it worthwhile.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

Have a few concerns there!
Been asked by a overseas vendor for passport scans in the past, required by the freight company supposedly - rang the local agent and it was not in their policies.
That sounds a bit "dodgy brothers" to me!
Not being conversant in the language and having someone on the ground over there makes it difficult to know when your being taken for a ride.

I think I paid about 30-40 euro's for postage on the Wohlhaupter and then again on the Kuroda spares - and it was 53 euro's for the centricator postage.
On the few european things I've bought recently 30-40 euros seemed to be about the going rate.

[Anorak Bob]

F M ! That's hardly uplifting!

The 2 Spannpratzen Stufenpratzen I purchased early December are on their way(?) via DHL Packchen International. Maybe the seller's photo is all I'll get. I was getting all excited too.:no:

[jhovel]

Just in case it helps anyone: I speak, read and write German fluently.
Happy to translate specifics - but not books!

The phrase
"Leider spreche ich kein Deutsch, aber wenn Sie Englisch können - oder jemanden finden der Ihnen helfen kann - dann würde ich gerne mit Ihnen handeln. Sonst versuchen wir es eben mit dem Google, Bablefish oder reverso.net on-line Übersetzer."
should help with a German potential trading partner.

Joe

[BrianLara400*]

Thanks Joe, thats a very generous offer - I may require your services for the odd "higher precision" translation, from time to time.
I have learnt the odd trick on google translate, but certain more specialised technical terms (strangely enough) associated with machining can stump it.


Those look real nice Bob, what height capacity can they cater for?


Brian, I may have to BOLO for a suitable lathe faceplate to modify.

Greg, I know you would probably make something more utilitarian and useful than a clone of the deckel/riken original, so you probably wont require them but if you want any further dimensions dont hesitate to ask.

[Greg Q]

Thanks Joe, thats a very generous offer - I may require your services for the odd "higher precision" translation, from time to time.
I have learnt the odd trick on google translate, but certain more specialised technical terms (strangely enough) associated with machining can stump it.


Those look real nice Bob, what height capacity can they cater for?


Greg, I know you would probably make something more utilitarian and useful than a clone of the deckel/riken original, so you probably wont require them but if you want any further dimensions dont hesitate to ask.

Thanks BL. It's back-burner for me, but I will grab any good 10" faceplate that I see for future use. There is another 2-jaw vise on GermBay right now that has the same mounting as our stuff. It's sitting at €63 right now:

PARALLEL SCHRAUBSTOCK DECKEL FP1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemnext&item=280794135052.html)

[Hunch]

I have been hosed a couple of times by having stuff shipped DHL out of Europe. In both cases it took over eight weeks, €85 for 5 kilos. Thats got to be the worst value shipping in the world.


DHL does seem to have the euro zone locked up for air freight.

Last item I received, 100 euro for around 9kg, one and a half weeks, November I think? Thought it might be Poste Italiane, but 5kg seems to be the limit with them and can't remember what was on the box.

I'll disagree on worst value. Oz Post, which has gone through the roof in the last half dozen years and don't know about delivery times...$230 odd the cheapest, for the inverse journey....and yet the yanks can send that weight and then some, near enough identical distance from the east coast for under $50????


For those heavier items my only idea right now would be to try and find a good broker over here.

Broker from this end, hadn't considered that! Usually the item in question is pick-up only, this guy was willing to send throughout Deutschland. Still be an act of faith, as the euros seem to think cardboard boxes and newspaper wadded up and it's good to go 16000 or 17000 km.


That sounds a bit "dodgy brothers" to me!

Testimonials from Russia on that site, although there's crooks everywhere, has me more cautious.

Original supplier who asked for the scans was in that country, taking over the world, up North. They backpeddled when I informed them it wasn't company or Customs requirement, goods arrived OK.....and I'd already paid for them at that stage....maybe just me being paranoid.



The 2 Spannpratzen Stufenpratzen I purchased early December are on their way(?) via DHL Packchen International. Maybe the seller's photo is all I'll get. I was getting all excited too.:no:

Among the usual Chinese dross table clamp sets at the auctions, surprisingly, have seen an increasing number of these coming up recently, as the old boys retire/go bust. Normally in the 4 to 6" range though.

[Greg Q]

Hunch, I haven't tried OzPost for outbound in many years, but now that you mention it I am not surprised they are so expensive. What is especially vexing is that air mail outbound is travelling on cargo planes that are a lot less full than they were inbound.

Here's another pisser: The Americans get those flat rate boxes free for the asking at their post offices. Ours charge around $3.50 for something not quite as good.*

*Mind you, the USPS is losing money hand over fist.

I sent Anorak Bob some more temptation overnight so he may soon have more data points for us :wink:

Greg

[Hunch]

*Mind you, the USPS is losing money hand over fist.

Only read snippets, thought there was some sort of govt redistribution scam happening à la water and electricity dividends of years past in NSW. Still can't imagine how it's profitable if both postal entities are supposed to get a cut for delivery - I won't be complaining though!

On the subject of scams, this one's a dozy, that I wasn't aware of - and I need to rant....

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f28/overseas-transaction-charges-now-billed-visa-paypal-ebay-purchases-141242/

by coincidence, it popped up after a search while trying to work out my nice little post-Xmas pressie on the CC statement for a CTC purchase.

3% on the paypal transaction + 3% from those f@##$$% at HSBC, even though they didn't do any Fx.


I sent Anorak Bob some more temptation overnight so he may soon have more data points for us

Bad boy! :2tsup:

Bill.

[Greg Q]

Only read snippets, thought there was some sort of govt redistribution scam happening à la water and electricity dividends of years past in NSW. Still can't imagine how it's profitable if both postal entities are supposed to get a cut for delivery - I won't be complaining though!

On the subject of scams, this one's a dozy, that I wasn't aware of - and I need to rant....

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f28/overseas-transaction-charges-now-billed-visa-paypal-ebay-purchases-141242/

by coincidence, it popped up after a search while trying to work out my nice little post-Xmas pressie on the CC statement for a CTC purchase.

3% on the paypal transaction + 3% from those f@##$$% at HSBC, even though they didn't do any Fx.



Bad boy! :2tsup:

Bill.

Thanks for the head's up Hunch...I'll ditch my HSBC card tomorrow. This is what happens when the banksters own the politicians.

[Anorak Bob]

[QUOTE=BrianLara400*;1420643

Those look real nice Bob, what height capacity can they cater for?


[/QUOTE]

BL,

30 -75mm.


Here's the score with the UPA-2. Wohlhaupter offered it with either a 2 Morse taper arbor or straight shank arbors in 1/2 and 3/4 inch or 16 and 20mm sizes. On special order were Brown and Sharpe No.7 and SIP arbors.

The UPA-3 had more mounting options. 3 and 4 Morse, Moore taper, NMTB30, NMTB40, R8, 3/4 and 1" along with 16 and 20mm straight arbors. These options are as listed in a 1981 DAPRA brochure. Being an American distributor they exclude the Euro ISO, SK and SA tapers.

The DS interchangeable arbor system was only available for the UPA-3 to 5 sizes.

I had previously thought that Schaublin supplied a Swiss made Rawyler boring and facing head as an accessory. Turns out that it was a Kaiser made head. There is a Kaiser boring and facing head with a 30 taper arbor for sale on Ebay UK. The seller is trying to tip it over for $1400 AU. He reckons these Swiss jewels sold new for 3000 pounds. I don't need to bore and face that many holes.

BT

[Abratool]

It would be good to have plenty of holes & facing to perform.
One would then feel a lot better about purchasing one of these treasures.
Justifying good gear is difficult.:rolleyes:
One cannot have enough good tools."They will always be handy one day"
regards
Bruce

[BrianLara400*]

Hi Bob,
My wohlhaupter is the non-interchangeable arbour type. I dont recall if the autofeeding mechanism is available in the boring heads smaller than upa3 or equivalent.
It seems there isnt anyway around spending alot of money on these boring heads if they include any amount of original tooling accesories, let alone if they are boxed and complete (unfortunately that doesnt change be they Kuroda, Rohm, Lenz, Rawyler, DÁndrea etc). It just seems to be the going rate.

Greg your deckel FZA boring chuck, did you get much in the way of tooling etc with yours?
and back in the day did they come as a complete boxed kit etc? or did they just come as an item that people added ordered bits and bars for as required?

[Greg Q]

The FZA chuck was bare...it takes any old 10mm shank boring bar or 1/4" square tools. I'm looking for a set of Komet bars in 10mm to complete it, but I also have a UPA3 complete in box which came with my mill.

I only bought the FZA because it was badly described, hence cheap, and I like the idea of a very compact boring (only) head. It sticks out less than 35mm from the spindle.

BTW, the Wohlhaupter brochures I have show facing and autofeeding on all the models including the UPA1. The UPA2 is listed with a 135mm max diameter.

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

The reason I ask, is there is a FZA on ebay that has the MK/MT4 arbour and sk20 thread to suit our drawbar. It doesnt appear in as nicer condition as yours though. What shank does yours have?
It's advertised as a Wohlhaupter, did they produce these for deckel, Is this correct?
obviously the UPA's were offered (but these were branded as such (W), where the FZA's are not from what i can work out?)
Wohlhaupter Ausdrehkopf MK4 Deckel Ausdrehfutter FZA | eBay (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wohlhaupter-Ausdrehkopf-MK4-Deckel-Ausdrehfutter-FZA-/360417878521?pt=Fr%C3%A4sen&hash=item53ea9461f9)
It may be a candidate for one of these mail forwarder's
I too would be interested a set of the komet 10mm boring bars. My UPA3 came with 2 of them, but the ones I got dont have anykind of end relief so they arent really suitable for boring, more for circlip grooves etc under expanding autofeed.



BTW, the Wohlhaupter brochures I have show facing and autofeeding on all the models including the UPA1.
Greg My memory failed me:B, Do you have the famous Deckel DVD by wrench from the practical machinist forum?

[Greg Q]

That FZA doesn't look too bad, and that's the same price I paid for mine. Mine is a 20mm shank, for which I have an MT4 collet.

I think these were offered by Deckel from very early-before the war even. There are no markings other than Deckel anywhere on the head, and the markings are more robust than the Wohlhaupter markings on my UPA-3.

Having said that, the head looks exactly like a Wohlhaupter product...same fit, finish, materials, fonts, blood type. (What's the number for CSI Munchen?:wink:)

I do have that DVD. And the little plastic model FP-1 !

Greg

[Greg Q]

I too would be interested a set of the komet 10mm boring bars. My UPA3 came with 2 of them, but the ones I got dont have anykind of end relief so they arent really suitable for boring, more for circlip grooves etc under expanding autofeed.



Before I forget, I'll try to scan a Wohlhaupter blueprint that I have here (an original!) of the proper grinding scheme for HSS boring and facing bits.

Greg

(I should also make an effort to add some Deckel service bulletins that I have on paper that aren't on the DVD...{but most of them are for the later pantographs})

[BrianLara400*]

Before I forget, I'll try to scan a Wohlhaupter blueprint that I have here (an original!) of the proper grinding scheme for HSS boring and facing bits.
Hi Greg, that would be good if you can manage it
When the head turned up, I couldnt find any info on this - so just guessed. I've only used it for boring some plates so far, but must have got it pretty right because it left a real nice finish. The trick I found was to use ordinary M2 HSS rather than the 10% cobalt stuff (which is normally my preffered).
I was cleaning up flame cut holes and the M2 dealt with the initially interupted cut allot better seeming to posess a greatly more durable edge.
The biggest issue I have with my UPA3 is that it accepts 6mm tool steel bits, rather than 1/4" - and you can probably guess what size I've got.
so every piece requires 2 of the side faces being ground down (an annoyance more than anything else).

[Greg Q]

Yeah, I have the same issue. Having grown up in North America I have a bias towards imperial sized branded tool steel. I like Rex and Cleveland Mo-Max. I have an unmolested box of Mo-Max 1/4 bits in HSS, so I am in the same boat. I also have a box of 1/4" Stellite bits that I'd like to use. Still searching for that mother lode of Komet 10mm bars, but that's back burner.

I'll have to present myself with a slab of beer and 1/4" bits to my friendly neighbourhood surface grinder owner.

Bob and I were watching a few pieces of German exotica sell on ebay yesterday...a Hommel dividing head, an early Wohlhaupter form-milling head and a coordinate milling attachment (angle + distance). They all fetched just over €500 on average. I maybe could have used the Hommel, like all of us, but I suspect the fight could have gone hundreds higher.

As I mentioned to Bob I am now resuming my seat in the cheapskate section of the stands. A tap wrench may be January's big buy for me.:(

GQ

[Anorak Bob]

Naturally enough, I've saved the Hommel photos. Rather than them be buried here, I will start and show them in a new thread. Maybe someone can shed light on the attached indicator. But then again, the half a dozen or so blokes that would be interested would be following this thread anyway.:roll:

BL,

What chance is there of seeing a photo of the UPA3 mounted in the Riken?

BT

[Greg Q]

I'm glad that you saved the Hommel photos.

The UK4 Wohlhaupter thread that you did last year was prescient: I never thought that I'd see another for sale. I gather their forte was meant to be form milling, which makes me wonder if perhaps they weren't meant for things like the 3D cams installed in diesel (and '73 Porsche RS) injector pumps.

Anyway: the Hommel dividing head might just be the best light divider we as a group will ever see, unless it hides unseen design flaws.

Back to the studying the effects of 1-3 micron volcanic ash on 4th stage turbine blades...

Greg

[BrianLara400*]

But then again, the half a dozen or so blokes that would be interested would be following this thread anyway.:roll:

What chance is there of seeing a photo of the UPA3 mounted in the Riken?

Hi Bob,
this thread used to have something to do with hardinge collets didn't it?:U
I've probably been largely responsible for this "divergence".
I'll organise a few pics of the mighty riken tommorow evening, for you.


As I mentioned to Bob I am now resuming my seat in the cheapskate section of the stands. A tap wrench may be January's big buy for me.
You may have to save a seat up there for me, because by-god 2011 was an expensive year.
I've only got a few more Riken/Deckel related things I would really like:

-The supplementary indexing attachment for the dividing head (Vernier dial)
-Deckel diving head face plate (because I've not got the "heart" to butcher the one I've got)
-Some MT4/ MK4 Collets larger than 5/8
-FZA boring head/chuck


-FP1 fixed table





-High-speed head (I'll probably make/adapt one before I fork out the going asking price)

-The 15" rotary tables that were offered for the fp1



-The spiral milling attachment

All in roughly that order of necessity (you'll notice that there is considerable daylight between some of the later entries in that list :U
If I can accumulate the first 3 or 4 over the next 12 months or so I'd then be keen after that to stem the bleeding for a fair while.

[Greg Q]

Well, I might have a Perrin fixed table which would work in a pinch. It is slightly bigger than the original Fp1 table.

Deckel dividing head faceplates: Yeah, I need one too. I'd get it popped by a cnc guy I think. I'm sure that John Stevenson on the HSM list makes them...he's probably do a special order small run.

Stan Krumm on the PM site has sets of MT4 deckel collets with the S20 X 2 buttress thread. He also seels them individually. As does RC Machines in Luxembourg. (I bought my metric ones from them)

High speed head: Hmmm. I reckon I'd make my own too, using a servo motor and an ER25 or ER16 spindle. (The Deckel heads used a proprietary, even more rare S16 collet).

Deckel rotary table...I have one. I read on PM that the Walter and probably Hoffman tables were better. I bought a Walter but got ripped off for it. It, like the Deckel, was a horizontal mount only. Perhaps a horizontal/vertical Moore or Troyke or Yuasa table would do? I have a car importer that I am now using for those non-postage items.

The foregoing notwithstanding (law school refugee) I'd like a Deckel optical rotary table. (Or SIP, or Hauser). Hell, I'd like the jig bore to go with it.

Finally, there were some rotary tables sold that also had an X-Y mount. They were about 8" tall, but imagine the versatility.

On Edit: 800watt on us ebay also sells MT4 collets with a (I think) M16 female thread. I have a few and plan to cut them down and insert an M16:S20 adapter so as to preserve the original Deckel drawbar in the spindles. They are good value for a 1/8"-1" set.

Greg

[Anorak Bob]

That's a short expensive list BL.

Here are the photos of the UK4 that sold 2 days ago for 554 Euros. And a link to a previous thread about the same device for those who may be interested.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/wohlhaupter-not-upa-131713/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/wohlhaupter-not-upa-131713/)


BT