Help with Buzzer/Thicknesser

[Wizzle]

Hi to everyone,
This is my first post to the forum, and hopefully not my last! I've been looking through the site and it looks very informative, so I'm hoping this is the place to ask a few questions...

I've recently inherited a couple of old machines from my grandfather and have been restoring them back to usable condition, but I'm in need of some advice. The first machine is an L.S. Barker 16" table saw and has restored well, so no problems there. The second is a 16" combination buzzer/thicknesser and that's the one I need some help with... It would have originally operated on a belt-drive system, which is somewhat impractical these days, so I am setting about converting it to a 3-phase electric drive. The base is solid cast-iron, weighing a few hundred kgs and has the manufacturers name embossed (Nationale Mecanique Bruxelles - see attached image). Given the name, it was likely manufactured in Brussels - I'm guessing around the 1920 - 1930 era. I have managed to assemble the whole machine from it's box of parts, but I have come across the following issues and hoping someone might be able to assist;

1. I am at a loss as to how the dual blade guard is supposed to be configured - I suspect they should be held in place with a spring at each end of either guard (There were 4 springs in the parts box), but I'm not sure (see attached pdf). The guards rotate over the buzzer blade to partially cover it from each side of the blade assembly. When they are in the lowered position, there is an adjustment screw to control the resting height (also visible in the attached pdf).

2. The rollers on the lower thicknesser table (see attached pdf) can be raised or lowered, but again, I'm not sure if these should automatically adjust with a spring loading, or whether they should be locked in place and only adjusted as required. It would be easy enough to lock them in place, but I'm not convinced this is the original intention.

3. A few parts are missing - most importantly the out-feed table, but it also seems that there could be half of the guard for the drive gears missing (see attached pdf), and a mystery piece is also missing from the top of the guard. I could have a new out-feed table machined relatively easily, but if anyone knows of one of these things lying around in a scrap yard, getting hold of the genuine part(s) would make things a lot easier.

I was wondering if someone might know something about this machine, and look forward to any comments or suggestions. Thanks.
Wayne

[pmcgee]

Hi Wizzle.

I have an old thicknesser that I think may be very similar in spirit. Certainly the big gear on the side rings bells ... I will take some semi-reasonable pics with my phone that might help you along a step.

Cheers,
Paul McGee

[pmcgee]

Sorry - I did this in a bit of a rush - I thought it would have been just my screen that was all misty - but I guess it was the lens.

I think there may be a significant section missing - all pertaining to the thicknessing function. I expect the jointer section should work with a full bed and a means to turn the blades.

Hopefully you will be able to make out the following:

The 3 phase motor turns the cutting head directly by V belts (4) and also turns a spindle that runs a leather belt to eventually turn the thicknesser feed-rollers.

The large iron belt wheel is shafted with the small cog that turns my equivalent to your large gear. Then there is a chain arrangement that travels over gears turning the infeed and outfeed rollers - in a lumpy "Y" shaped configuration (as seen from the side).

Hope this helps. Sorry to post and run - everything takes longer on a Friday.

:) Cheers,

Paul McGee

[Wizzle]

Sorry - I did this in a bit of a rush - I thought it would have been just my screen that was all misty - but I guess it was the lens.

I think there may be a significant section missing - all pertaining to the thicknessing function. I expect the jointer section should work with a full bed and a means to turn the blades.

Hopefully you will be able to make out the following:

The 3 phase motor turns the cutting head directly by V belts (4) and also turns a spindle that runs a leather belt to eventually turn the thicknesser feed-rollers.

The large iron belt wheel is shafted with the small cog that turns my equivalent to your large gear. Then there is a chain arrangement that travels over gears turning the infeed and outfeed rollers - in a lumpy "Y" shaped configuration (as seen from the side).

Hope this helps. Sorry to post and run - everything takes longer on a Friday.

:) Cheers,

Paul McGee

Hi Paul,
Thanks very much for the information. I can certainly see a lot of similarities - especially with the thicknesser table and the cast iron base. There are also a lot of similarities with the drive gearing.

One thing I was unsure of with mine, was whether the rollers on the base of the thicknesser table should be locked at a fixed height, or whether they are spring-loaded. Since originally posting, I've been speaking to a few people and also thinking about it a bit more myself, and I can't see why the lower rollers and the feed rollers would be spring-loaded. I can see a reason for adjusting the height of the lower rollers, but can't see why they would need to be spring-loaded. Would that agree with the set-up on yours, ie. are the lower rollers adjustable in height, and locked in place?

If these rollers do, indeed, get locked in place, that leaves me with 4 springs that are almost certainly fixed to the blade guard assemblies somehow. I'm still not sure about this one though.

Since I originally started restoring the equipment, and posted with a few questions, I have also found out a bit more info, namely;

It is very unlikely that there would be a guard missing from part of the drive gear (that was part of my question #3). My father certainly doesn't remember anything protecting the operator from this part of the machine - hardly surprising.

I looked at the gearing ratio between the main shaft and the feed rollers to try and determine what the blade RPM should be. However, if the timber was being fed through the thicknesser at a rate of appx 3.5m/min, that would only give a main shaft speed of about 1,000 RPM. That seems a bit slow to me. Do you know what RPM your main shaft turns at? I'm only using 3.5m/min as a guide, based on specs from a similar sized commercial machine available at Timbecon. That number may not be applicable for a bigger, heavier machine like mine though.

I am also going to attempt to track down the original feed-out table, which will be a real long-shot, but I think it's worth a go...

My uncle inherited the equipment when his father (my grandfather) died many years ago, and he had the equipment set-up and operating in a large shed on his property in Dardanup (near Bunbury) for many years. My uncle died in an accident in 1991 and the equipment has been in storage since. Apparently though, the feed-out table had been dropped in for repair at an engineering firm prior to the accident and was never collected. My father seems to think that Prosser Engineering in Picton may have been the company doing the repairs, but I cannot (as yet) find out any contact information for them. If I can speak to someone who worked for this company (or a similar company) around that time, they would likely remember the accident my uncle was involved in, and maybe...just maybe...they may recall having that feed-out table sitting out the back in their lot somewhere, rusting away. Like I said, it's worth a shot...

Anyway, thanks again for your reply. Sorry to post such a lengthy and, at times, unrelated response, but I thought I would add a bit more information while I was at it.

Cheers,
Wayne

[L.S.Barker1970]

Hi Wayne, sorry to pick this up so late, but I may be able to help a little..

Question 1. The Blade Guard or Pressure Bar should be spring loaded, It actually keeps Downward pressure on the material prior to cutting and acts as a chip breaker as well.

Question 2. The Bottom rollers to the thicknesser should be set Half a millimeter or less above the cast base in a fixed position always, the job of the bottom rollers is to take the pressure/friction of the cast base a little from the feed rollers above and allow for a smooth pass with the material.

Question 3. This one I am scratching my head a little, there does seem to be some missing parts, Feed and cutter head wise, most over/under machines run all at once, all I can advise is to chase the driveline to the different areas and try to nut out where every thing went.
I have thrown up some pic's of my old Danckaert Thicknesser, also from Bruxelles, some of side shots may give you some ideas.

Question 4. Cutter head RPM should be in the 4000 to 5000 range, and feed speed you should at least have a choice of 2 to 5 speeds, the feed rate selection may be the pice that is missing.....

Wayne, I would be jumping at the bit to find that table, the rest of the machine looks very solidly built and a worth while project.
Good luck, I hope some of this helps, keep us posted as to how you go...

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0009-1.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0012.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0045-2.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0002-2.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0020-4.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0029-1.jpg

Melbourne Matty.

[pmcgee]

Dammit - my browser ate my reply. I hope I can remember what I wrote. :)
Argh.

It looks to me like you have a chip-breaker and feed-roller attached to a spring-loaded block. On mine there are four separate blocks - but the same deal.
As you say - the bed rollers are adjustable but fixed.

My (very old) motor says "40Hz 1160rpm" which I calculate to 1450rpm @ 50Hz.
The drive/cutterhead pulleys are very roughly 26cm/13cm so ...
2900rpm at the cutterhead? It sounds pretty damn serious when it is going!

Having looked again, I think i may have jumped the gun regarding the feed-rollers.
Are yours geared off that large gear? And the large gear turns the cutterhead?
If so that is a different setup to what I have.
It would be great to see a level side-view of that side of the machine.
I will do the same if I can manoeuver the pallet back off the fence.

>>Sorry to post such a lengthy and, at times, unrelated response, but I thought I would >>add a bit more information while I was at it.

Are you kidding. It is very interesting. Also interesting that we are both in WA.
Sorry to hear about your uncle's accident.

All the best,
Paul McGee

PS - Love to see a photo of your tablesaw. I have an LS Barker 36" bandsaw that is just fantastic. Looks like those guys didn't muck around making machinery!

[pmcgee]

I have thrown up some pic's of my old Danckaert Thicknesser, also from Bruxelles, some of side shots may give you some ideas.

Melbourne Matty.


Nice. :)

It looks like your bed-rollers are driven also? By the chain link?

(Mine are just free rolling)

Thanks,
Paul McGee

[L.S.Barker1970]

Nice. :)

It looks like your bed-rollers are driven also? By the chain link?

(Mine are just free rolling)

Thanks,
Paul McGee

Yes indeed they are Paul, Chain link, that old thicknesser was a beauty 30 inch wide cut 4 blade cutter head, I picked it up for $200 about 8 years ago with good intentions to get it going but too many irons in the fire I'm afraid, and had to let it go earlier this year and rationalize my thicknesser inventory.
Your Cooksley thicknesser is a very rare machine indeed, especially here in Australia.
Not a lot of information in the web on A.Cooksley & Co solid machines though
Just like L.S.Barker they did not mess around with small castings.
I have also quite a few Barker machines, they are a bit of a favorite.

Melbourne Matty.

[Wizzle]

Hi Wayne, sorry to pick this up so late, but I may be able to help a little..

Question 1. The Blade Guard or Pressure Bar should be spring loaded, It actually keeps Downward pressure on the material prior to cutting and acts as a chip breaker as well.

Question 2. The Bottom rollers to the thicknesser should be set Half a millimeter or less above the cast base in a fixed position always, the job of the bottom rollers is to take the pressure/friction of the cast base a little from the feed rollers above and allow for a smooth pass with the material.

Question 3. This one I am scratching my head a little, there does seem to be some missing parts, Feed and cutter head wise, most over/under machines run all at once, all I can advise is to chase the driveline to the different areas and try to nut out where every thing went.
I have thrown up some pic's of my old Danckaert Thicknesser, also from Bruxelles, some of side shots may give you some ideas.

Question 4. Cutter head RPM should be in the 4000 to 5000 range, and feed speed you should at least have a choice of 2 to 5 speeds, the feed rate selection may be the pice that is missing.....

Wayne, I would be jumping at the bit to find that table, the rest of the machine looks very solidly built and a worth while project.
Good luck, I hope some of this helps, keep us posted as to how you go...

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0009-1.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0012.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0045-2.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0002-2.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0020-4.jpg

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/DSC_0029-1.jpg

Melbourne Matty.

Hi Melbourne Matty,
Thanks for your help. It's greatly appreciated.
That is a pretty serious piece of machinery you have there...

Thanks to some good feedback, I've been able to make a bit more progress;

Question 1:
After your suggestion, I went back and took another look at these pressure bars / chip breakers and I think this may now be solved. I had suspicions that the 4 spare springs I had leftover were supposed to attach to the pressure bars, but couldn't see how. Upon closer inspection though, I noticed 4 bolt holes in the cast iron base that are certainly where these 4 springs are supposed to be attached. I have now connected the 4 springs to the 2 pressure bars and they do indeed provide downward force. I've attached a PDF with an image illustrating the installation of these springs.

I had thought they might have been designed to offer some sort of protection from the blades when using the buzzer, as they can (without the springs attached) rotate up and over the blade. However, this spring-loaded configuration makes more sense. The height of the pressure bars is fixed to the height of the feed rollers, so they move up and down as the feed rollers move up and down - though the relative heights are adjustable with the bolt/locking nut on top of the pressure bars (visible in my original "Blade Guard Assemblies" image).

Question 2:
Thanks to the feedback, this is now solved. I have now bolted these in place. Makes perfect sense.

Question 3:
The original photos I uploaded do not show a few of the belt drive pulley wheels that I do still have. A couple of these cast pulley wheels have been broken though, so I will have to replace them with an equivalent v-belt drive system.

I've taken another picture of the belt drive and gearing side of the machine (as clear as I could manage, given the current location of the machine). The image, along with a description of the drive gearing, is shown on the second page of the attached PDF.

Question 4:
The idea of a variable feed speed isn't something I had considered. I think I will have to re-visit the possible configurations of the drive system. It may be possible to vary the location of some of the belt drive pulleys to produce a more reasonable feed speed / cutter speed ratio (and possibly a variable ratio).

I've made a few notes in the attached PDF along these lines.

So, I'm still making progress. Thanks again for the feedback. It is an interesting project to get stuck into. Actually, a family wedding over the weekend also gave me the opportunity to discuss the machinery with those who remember seeing it in use. I have been pointed in the direction of someone who worked in the workshop with this, and other machinery owned by my grandfather. I think he will be able to shed some light on some of the mysteries, and also might be able to make some suggestions regarding the possible location of the feed-out table.

I'll post again with updates.

Cheers,
Wayne

[Wizzle]

Dammit - my browser ate my reply. I hope I can remember what I wrote. :)
Argh.

It looks to me like you have a chip-breaker and feed-roller attached to a spring-loaded block. On mine there are four separate blocks - but the same deal.
As you say - the bed rollers are adjustable but fixed.

My (very old) motor says "40Hz 1160rpm" which I calculate to 1450rpm @ 50Hz.
The drive/cutterhead pulleys are very roughly 26cm/13cm so ...
2900rpm at the cutterhead? It sounds pretty damn serious when it is going!

Having looked again, I think i may have jumped the gun regarding the feed-rollers.
Are yours geared off that large gear? And the large gear turns the cutterhead?
If so that is a different setup to what I have.
It would be great to see a level side-view of that side of the machine.
I will do the same if I can manoeuver the pallet back off the fence.

>>Sorry to post such a lengthy and, at times, unrelated response, but I thought I would >>add a bit more information while I was at it.

Are you kidding. It is very interesting. Also interesting that we are both in WA.
Sorry to hear about your uncle's accident.

All the best,
Paul McGee

PS - Love to see a photo of your tablesaw. I have an LS Barker 36" bandsaw that is just fantastic. Looks like those guys didn't muck around making machinery!

Your browser ate your reply? Don't feel so bad - my computer ate my hard drive a few days ago...:~

Thanks again for your feedback, Paul
Yourself and Melbourne Matty have helped clear up the mystery of the chip breakers and the lower rollers. You're absolutely right about the chip breaker and feed roller being attached to the spring-loaded block.

I must admit, I'm not entirely sure how the chip breakers would function though. I can see that a bit of downward pressure on the timber as it's being fed into the thicknesser would help to prevent chips on the upper side of the timber - given the upward movement of the cutter blade. However, I can't see what function the symmetrical chip breaker on the feed-out side of the thicknesser would have.

Do they serve any purpose when using the buzzer, or are they only of benefit when using the thicknesser?

Another question also related to this;
If I can't locate the feed-out table, and have to get one machined... I wonder how close to the blade it should extend. It should obviously be at the same height as the upper limit of the blade, but I wonder if I would need to leave some room for the chip breaker (on the feed-out side) to move upward. I can't really see why that would be necessary though, and suspect it should extend to within a few mm of the blade. However, I could be wrong - that seems to happen quite often...

The feed rollers are geared to the big gear, though this is better explained in the PDF I attached in my reply to Melbourne Matty's post a short time ago. The large gear is not fixed to the main shaft, so the large gear can turn independently of the cutter shaft.

Given the feedback, I'll aim for a cutter rotation of about 3000 - 4000 RPM, though I think I'll work up to that speed. I think it would be wise to let it run for a good length of time at a slower RPM - just to make sure nothing falls off or seizes up. I have no doubt that it will be an intimidating machine when operating at full speed. I remember seeing it in use when I was about 10 years old, and that's where and when I learned my respect for such machinery.

I had to rearrange my workshop recently and, to cut a long story short, the buzzer/thicknesser and the table saw are sitting underneath a tonne of Jarrah slabs. Needless to say, both machines are a bit difficult to access at the moment. The best picture I could manage of the drive gearing of the thicknesser is shown in my last post. Hopefully that will answer your question though.

As for the LS Barker table saw - I'll definitely post some pictures. I'll see if it's possible to take some reasonable pics with the saw in its current location. If not, I'm afraid it will have to wait until I get rid of the tonne of Jarrah sitting over the top of it! It is a nice machine though, and I love the precision movement of the table height and the fence adjustment. It should be good to go as soon as I can upgrade the workshop (size and 3-phase).

Thanks also for your condolences.

Regards,
Wayne

[lightwood]

Just like L.S.Barker they did not mess around with small castings.
I have also quite a few Barker machines, they are a bit of a favorite.

Melbourne Matty.
Matty...
Pictures please, in another post maybe..."the LS Barker inventory"...hehehe

Peter

[pmcgee]

These turned out better than I was expecting.

They are shots of what's going on from the side-view.

Cheers,

Paul McGee

[L.S.Barker1970]

I must admit, I'm not entirely sure how the chip breakers would function though. I can see that a bit of downward pressure on the timber as it's being fed into the thicknesser would help to prevent chips on the upper side of the timber - given the upward movement of the cutter blade. However, I can't see what function the symmetrical chip breaker on the feed-out side of the thicknesser would have.

Do they serve any purpose when using the buzzer, or are they only of benefit when using the thicknesser?


Wayne

Wayne, only for the thicknesser, the Chip breakers do a couple of things, pressure in and pressure out is going to be a big assistance to help prevent snipe (ugly cutter bite at the end of your machined board). The other is dust extraction, which is very tricky on under over machines, because the cutter head is surrounded it makes it easier to collect the shavings from the top when using the thicknesser, if there is nothing at the rear of the cutter, material goes every where including in between the rear steel roller and the newly machined work resulting in bruised marks in the timber.




Another question also related to this;
If I can't locate the feed-out table, and have to get one machined... I wonder how close to the blade it should extend. It should obviously be at the same height as the upper limit of the blade, but I wonder if I would need to leave some room for the chip breaker (on the feed-out side) to move upward. I can't really see why that would be necessary though, and suspect it should extend to within a few mm of the blade. However, I could be wrong - that seems to happen quite often...
Wayne

Wayne usually the feed tables on a planer are machined to a point, and yes should be set quite close to the cutter head say between 8 and 12 millimeters.
Depth of cut adjustment on the Planer in feed table up and down should as well be a forward and back motion on an angle, so as to not lower the table on to the cutters when running a deep cut.
Your tables will be set to the top area of the cutter head and the chip breakers and thicknesser in feed rollers all run below.



I have been pointed in the direction of someone who worked in the workshop with this, and other machinery owned by my grandfather. I think he will be able to shed some light on some of the mysteries, and also might be able to make some suggestions regarding the possible location of the feed-out table.
Wayne

Wayne this sounds like the best news yeat !!


I know its a long shot but wouldn't some catalog cut or paper work on this machine be a great help....

Melbourne Matty, going to look for a bit.....

[L.S.Barker1970]

Matty...
Pictures please, in another post maybe..."the LS Barker inventory"...hehehe

Peter

Pete, You beat me to it...lol
see you on the other side...

Melbourne Matty.

[Wizzle]

Wayne, only for the thicknesser, the Chip breakers do a couple of things, pressure in and pressure out is going to be a big assistance to help prevent snipe (ugly cutter bite at the end of your machined board). The other is dust extraction, which is very tricky on under over machines, because the cutter head is surrounded it makes it easier to collect the shavings from the top when using the thicknesser, if there is nothing at the rear of the cutter, material goes every where including in between the rear steel roller and the newly machined work resulting in bruised marks in the timber.


Hi Matty,
Thanks again. It's all making more sense now.
It will be interesting to see the chip breakers in action. I'll have a better look once the machine is more accessible, but it's possible that the springs may be a bit 'lazy'. There's not a lot of downward pressure being exerted until they have been stretched by an inch or more. I'm sure it won't be difficult to find some new springs capable of doing the job though.


Wayne usually the feed tables on a planer are machined to a point, and yes should be set quite close to the cutter head say between 8 and 12 millimeters.
Depth of cut adjustment on the Planer in feed table up and down should as well be a forward and back motion on an angle, so as to not lower the table on to the cutters when running a deep cut.
Your tables will be set to the top area of the cutter head and the chip breakers and thicknesser in feed rollers all run below.

Great! Again, that makes sense. The feed-in table does indeed move on a forward/upward track so the tip of the table remains as close as possible to the blade. If I do have to get a feed-out table machined, I'll certainly heed your advice.
Interestingly, I heard that the original feed-out table was hinged on one side to allow the feed-out table to be folded up and out of the way while using the thicknesser. I'm not sure if I will maintain that design feature when having a new table machined though.


Wayne this sounds like the best news yeat !!


I know its a long shot but wouldn't some catalog cut or paper work on this machine be a great help....

Some sort of paperwork would be great! Even if only to get a better idea of where I might still be missing some parts, or how long the original feed-out table was...

Again, thanks for your continued help.

[Varra]

Hi all
This is Varra a new member because of this discussion.
I too have a Nationale Mecanique buzzer thicknesser I picked up from furniture manufacturer in Bayswater. The unit has a brass plaque on the side of it saying that I belonged to the Aircraft Manufacturing division of the Australian Air Force and dated 1914, I will in time go to the Air defence archive to see I there is a manual for the unit on record. I have contacted he machinery museum in Brussels and they know of the company but apparently they stopped production post the second world war and unfortunately there is no product information available.
was wondering where you ended up with your restoration.

[Wizzle]

Hi Varra,
Thanks for reviving this old thread, and for the info about the old machine you picked up.
I did end up completing the restoration, though I never located the feed-out table for the buzzer, unfortunately.
There was a bit of work involved in the conversion to 3-phase electric with the v-belt pulley drive, but it was well worth it.
Not long after I had made it operational, I picked up a truckload of Jarrah for some feature timber work on a house we were building down in Margaret River. All the timber was recycled, and in need of dressing. Every piece went through the thicknesser, including some 6 metre long, 300mm wide jarrah boards. It chewed through it without breaking a sweat.
It would be great to see some pics of your machine, if that's possible.
I'll also upload some pics of mine, now that it's operational (though it's somewhat buried at the back of the shed at the moment).
Thanks again!

[Varra]

Thanks for the response Wizzle,
Good to here you got the unit operational. When I first bought my unit from an old carpenter joiner in Maylands it had a 3 phase motor/ flat belt drives and a throw over clutch to engage the feed on the thicknesser - now I'm sorry I did the V Belt upgrade only from a nostalgic perspective. I had the cutter drum rebalanced and new bearings which allowed me to increase the cutter speed and change the infeed to to give me two strikes of the cutters per mm of travel in the infeed.
It has taken me forever to work out how the tables are set, but now that I have it sussed I'm amazed at how good and accurate the machine still operates.
I will strip it back to base metal and then reset all the feed and pressure rollers during the reassembly - will be hard without any manuals but i'm sure there will be sufficient information on the net.

There should be 3 photos