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jefferson
29th Sep 2011, 06:55 PM
I start this thread at Belly-up's suggestion.

Who uses SRGs on bowls ie cross-grain work? (What is a SRG you may well ask).

Any accidents yet?

Do SRG users also tempt fate with a skew on bowls (except in scraper mode) ?

Is it OK to use SRGs on bowls? Why (or not)?

I have my own thoughts on the above but thought it time to again bring matters to a head for new turners.

dr4g0nfly
29th Sep 2011, 09:30 PM
Firstly you should never use a 'Spindle Roughing Gouge' on a cross grain (bowl) blank.

Reasons;

A SRG is normally forged from a flat bar, rolled up to form the flute and the tang is much thinner and therefore weaker than the rest of the metal. So there is a chance it will break across the Tang!

Then there is the width of the flute and hence to opportunity to catch the wrong part of the edge or worse, the opposite horn - then all hell can break loose, lumps and bits can fly everywhere.

However I have no doubt that in days of yore the old timers did it as they do not have all the tools designs we have now. I've also watched this idiot (I'm seriously unimpressed with his abilities) do it in one of his YouTube videos (look for the Poinsettia.)

Then again the Robert Sorby - Reg Sherwin SRG - is forged from a solid bar of Tool Steel as is (I think) your PN Tools SRG. Personally this form of SRG is my preferred option. I've never tried to use it this way but it may be possible to use these on bowl blanks but I'd be reluctant to try anything over a few inches. If you do, please be very careful.

Sawdust Maker
29th Sep 2011, 09:39 PM
hmm

when's a good time to confess :doh:

Jim Carroll
29th Sep 2011, 10:00 PM
As most people on here know my personal views I am totally against anyone using or promoting the use of a Spindle Roughing Gouge for faceplate work.

The tool is designed for spindle work where there is very little blade overhang on the toolrest so it gets optimum support.

Over the years we have had people come to us after they have broken their SRG and once you talk to them they have mostly used it on a bowl blank.
They have generally been advised either by a friend or turning guru who does not know any better.
Once you show them the bowl gouge and how much easier it is to use they are converted.

Remember the first part of its name SPINDLE

Sawdust Maker
29th Sep 2011, 10:50 PM
hmm

when's a good time to confess :doh:

I didn't say I do it now :((

robo hippy
30th Sep 2011, 09:07 AM
A spindle roughing gouge is a lousy tool for roughing bowls. It won't take that type of abuse. If you want to see an example of how not to use one, look up the Laguna 18 inch lathe video on You Tube. The turner has the handle lowered, and is using it like a scraper. Darwin award sure to follow.

However, if you want an excellent high shear angled cut to finish the outside of your bowl, it works excellently. Roll it over on its side, flutes at 9 o'clock, take very light cuts, and it will leave a better surface on woods that other tools just can't match. Do not use it with the flutes straight up. The tool is unbalanced, and will roll into the wood. This way is safe. The tool does have limits.

robo hippy

tea lady
30th Sep 2011, 09:44 AM
However, if you want an excellent high shear angled cut to finish the outside of your bowl, it works excellently. Roll it over on its side, flutes at 9 o'clock, take very light cuts, and it will leave a better surface on woods that other tools just can't match. Do not use it with the flutes straight up. The tool is unbalanced, and will roll into the wood. This way is safe. The tool does have limits.

robo hippyYeah? But if you did the rest with a bowl gouge why stop now? Sheer scrape woth the bowl gouge as well. Has the same effect! :shrug:

robo hippy
30th Sep 2011, 11:12 AM
I recently tried every conceivable cutting edge and tool on some old punky big leaf maple to see which would leave the cleanest surface. Edges were sharpened on coarse and fine wheels, burr, no burr, honed burr, burnished burr, grinder burr, all gouges, and even the fluteless gouge. The best cuts were all bevel rubbing cuts, and the higher the shear angle, the better the cut. Bevel angle made no difference. You can rub the bevel with a scraper, just like you can with a gouge. With some highly figured Oregon Myrtle wood (actually California Bay Laurel) which does have rather inter locked grain, there was almost no visible difference with any of the methods, tools or variations in sharpening. You could feel it if you rubbed your hands on the wood, especially in reverse. With green wood, again the differences were very slight. When the shear angle gets to 70 plus degrees, the cut is a lot cleaner.

I am different. I prefer a scraper for my primary roughing tool on bowls.

rsser
30th Sep 2011, 12:40 PM
For those outside shear cuts IMO it's safer to use a forged spindle gouge with a shallow flute rather than a U or V SRG. Some turners use this kind of gouge on spindle work for roughing and for clean finishing cuts. showed me how to use one and for gentle curves I find it much friendlier than a skew.

AFAIC the prob with a U or V SRG is not the tang; it's that with a std grind too much of the edge can easily get engaged leading to a dig, loss of control and maybe tang breakage.

NeilS
1st Oct 2011, 01:13 PM
I wouldn't recommend any SRG for any faceplate work for the novice turner. Stick with standard bowl gouges, at least for the first 1000 bowls.

The more experienced turner will then have enough expertise using standard bowl gouges to make an informed judgment on whether SRGs have a place in their faceplate work or not.

Considerations for the experienced bowl turner:
Because of their large cutting edge SRGs can take a much larger bite than most bowl gouges, which are typically much smaller in diameter. The more experienced bowl turners will anticipate the heavy duty forces involved in taking off a banana peel sized shaving and proceed accordingly (or not).

There are SRGs and SRGs. The P&N, Thompson and Ashley IIes (Reg Sherwin) SRGs have substantial tangs that are milled from billet stock; 1/2" diam in the case of the P&N , 5/8" on the Reg Sherwin, and 3/4" diam in the case of the Thompson. These are in a separate category to the forged and flimsy tangs on other SRGs. There may be other SRGs with similar substantial tangs that I am not aware of.

A very experienced bowl turner with one of the above more substantial SRGs might (not that I'm recommending it!!) rough down the outside of a bowl blank, BUT would not go anywhere near the inside of a bowl with it and never with that typical straight across grind. So, that would be one SRG with standard grind for spindle work and another with swept back wings for..... ouch!, at least in the pocket.

An experienced bowl turner would also realise that a longer handle than the one that came with the SRG was needed to counteract the extra forces involved in taking such a big cut and give more attention to tool overhang.

Keeping your blank attached to the lathe also becomes an issue.

Why not just buy a bigger bowl gouge?
However, I fail to see the difference between using a milled 1" SRG with swept back wings and longer handle, and a 1" 'U' bowl gouge to rough down the outside of the same bowl blank. I wouldn't recommend either for the novice turner, but suggest it may be a closer call for a very experienced bowl turner who wants to give themselves a workout...:o

Personally I prefer 'V' fluted bowl gouges. They are more versatile in the range and depth of cuts they can perform.

RETIRED
1st Oct 2011, 02:17 PM
I wouldn't recommend any SRG for any faceplate work for the novice turner. Stick with standard bowl gouges, at least for the first 1000 bowls.

The more experienced turner will then have enough expertise using standard bowl gouges to make an informed judgment on whether SRGs have a place in their faceplate work or not.

Considerations for the experienced bowl turner:
Because of their large cutting edge SRGs can take a much larger bite than most bowl gouges, which are typically much smaller in diameter. The more experienced bowl turners will anticipate the heavy duty forces involved in taking off a banana peel sized shaving and proceed accordingly (or not).

There are SRGs and SRGs. The P&N, Thompson and Ashley IIes (Reg Sherwin) SRGs have substantial tangs that are milled from billet stock; 1/2" diam in the case of the P&N , 5/8" on the Reg Sherwin, and 3/4" diam in the case of the Thompson. These are in a separate category to the forged and flimsy tangs on other SRGs. There may be other SRGs with similar substantial tangs that I am not aware of.

A very experienced bowl turner with one of the above more substantial SRGs might (not that I'm recommending it!!) rough down the outside of a bowl blank, BUT would not go anywhere near the inside of a bowl with it and never with that typical straight across grind. So, that would be one SRG with standard grind for spindle work and another with swept back wings for..... ouch!, at least in the pocket.

An experienced bowl turner would also realise that a longer handle than the one that came with the SRG was needed to counteract the extra forces involved in taking such a big cut and give more attention to tool overhang.

Keeping your blank attached to the lathe also becomes an issue.

Why not just buy a bigger bowl gouge?
However, I fail to see the difference between using a milled 1" SRG with swept back wings and longer handle, and a 1" 'U' bowl gouge to rough down the outside of the same bowl blank. I wouldn't recommend either for the novice turner, but suggest it may be a closer call for a very experienced bowl turner who wants to give themselves a workout...:o

Personally I prefer 'V' fluted bowl gouges. They are more versatile in the range and depth of cuts they can perform.Ditto.

robo hippy
1st Oct 2011, 04:09 PM
Hmmm...I can't imagine taking big cuts with a spindle roughing gouge, unless you are trying to use it like a scraper. Very bad idea, wrong bevel angle, wrong shape, wrong tool. If I am using a swept back deep fluted gouge, I can put as much or more steel into the wood with one of those than I can with a SRG.

One problem with V gouges, or deep fluted gouges if you are making a finish cut is that if you have the flutes straight up, you tend to cut more up on the wing rather than on the nose, which would put the gouge out of balance (the wing is not on the tool rest, the center/bottom is), and a tendency to catch by rolling into the wood. If you rotate the gouge over on its side a bit (for the outside of the bowl, flutes at 9 to 10 o'clock), then the part that is cutting is directly over the tool rest, and you have a stable cut.

If you are using a continental style SRG with a ) flute and nose profile, at about a 70 degree angle, you have a high shear angle, and the part that is cutting is over the tool rest, and well balanced, as long as you keep the lower half of the steel in the wood.

I guess I am saying that there are right and wrong ways to use just about any tool.

robo hippy

Pat
1st Oct 2011, 06:09 PM
Jeff, you can use the SRG, I'm happy with my 22mm P&N Bowl Gouge or my 19mm Kelton Bowl Gouge.

I have the big P&N SRG and the grind does not lend itself to bowl turning, but it's great at spindle turning.

So if you want a larger bowl gouge, they are available, but funnily enough, for 90% of all my bowls I start to finish with my 1/2" bowl gouges.

Tony Morton
1st Oct 2011, 06:14 PM
Thank you Jefferson for starting this post its something that has had me pusseled for some time, as a self taught turner or remover of timber from a spinning blank I would someone to explain exactly the definition of a bowl gouge the sharpening and cutting angles and if these sharpening and cutting angles are not used what are the concequences. I have used a roughing gouge on out side of bowls for nearly forty years and had no problems using solid blanks 200 diam. to burl blanks 600 in diam .

Cheers Tony

RETIRED
1st Oct 2011, 08:25 PM
Tony, can you show me what sort of Roughing gouge you are using please?

I was not going to respond to this thread but I think a few explanations, as I see them, are in order to dispel a lot of misconceptions about names and cutting angles so a long winded post is coming.:rolleyes:

Allan at Wallan
1st Oct 2011, 08:49 PM
Tony, can you show me what sort of Roughing gouge you are using please?

I was not going to respond to this thread but I think a few explanations, as I see them, are in order to dispel a lot of misconceptions about names and cutting angles so a long winded post is coming.:rolleyes:

"long winded post is coming" --- no doubt you could turn it
into a flagpole on your lathe .:D

Allan

powderpost
1st Oct 2011, 09:01 PM
Tony, what do you use on the inside of a bowl?
Jim

RETIRED
1st Oct 2011, 09:01 PM
It would be quicker to show than it takes to type it that is for sure.

Hmm, maybe a theme for next w/e.:rolleyes:

Tony Morton
1st Oct 2011, 10:38 PM
Hi and Jim
At present I cant up load pics from computer but will try from the laptop tomorrow. Jim P&N bowl gouge on the inside or scraper not the roughing gouge.

Cheers Tony

powderpost
1st Oct 2011, 10:49 PM
Hi Tony, I really do not understand why you would use a "spindle" roughing gouge on the outside of a bowl and then change to a "bowl" gouge for the inside. Surely it would be more logical to use the dedicated "bowl" gouge for the whole job?
Jim

Tony Morton
2nd Oct 2011, 09:07 AM
A question what is the difference between a 200mm bowl blank end grain and a 200mm "spindle" ? Jim the rason i use the "roughing gouge"on the out side of bowls as it has more cutting surfaces and removes waste quicker, and as to why I dont use it inside a bowl is ? DON'T KNOW NEVER TRIED IT I imagine it would be like using a skew in there.

Cheers Tony

wheelinround
2nd Oct 2011, 11:25 AM
Can a spindle roughing gouge be re-ground to the shape of a roughing bowl gouge or don't grinders or the steel allow this.:?

Maybe a show of peoples SRG's and manufactures SRG's and grinds, as well as BRG's are shown it will possibly stem all doubt a decent video showing the use of both in correct and non-correct use.

Now will this also be the same all around the world remember or US fellows love to scrape rather than cut. and in 3rd world countries well even in the UK they still make their own tools.

What do you use if the blank is a rough spindle or log or something like a Norfolk pine where shape knots and that rough exterior means tool overhang is not consistent in trying to get the shape. Sections of branches are sticking out giving you knots and endgrain to turn and rough down.
What to use if doing a natural edge bowl where log is horizontal to face plate not spindle.:? Isn't that turning end grain? or visa versa??

If doing a platter is there such as a platter roughing gouge after all its not a bowl nor a spindle and could have alternative grain being laminated or segmented same for spindle working laminated and segmented jobs.

The above must see Jim changing tools as fast as the lathe goes round.


What is used if doing a diagonal crosscut section of a log ???

Ed Reiss
2nd Oct 2011, 11:32 AM
I wouldn't recommend any SRG for any faceplate work for the novice turner. Stick with standard bowl gouges, at least for the first 1000 bowls.

The more experienced turner will then have enough expertise using standard bowl gouges to make an informed judgment on whether SRGs have a place in their faceplate work or not.

Considerations for the experienced bowl turner:
Because of their large cutting edge SRGs can take a much larger bite than most bowl gouges, which are typically much smaller in diameter. The more experienced bowl turners will anticipate the heavy duty forces involved in taking off a banana peel sized shaving and proceed accordingly (or not).

There are SRGs and SRGs. The P&N, Thompson and Ashley IIes (Reg Sherwin) SRGs have substantial tangs that are milled from billet stock; 1/2" diam in the case of the P&N , 5/8" on the Reg Sherwin, and 3/4" diam in the case of the Thompson. These are in a separate category to the forged and flimsy tangs on other SRGs. There may be other SRGs with similar substantial tangs that I am not aware of.

A very experienced bowl turner with one of the above more substantial SRGs might (not that I'm recommending it!!) rough down the outside of a bowl blank, BUT would not go anywhere near the inside of a bowl with it and never with that typical straight across grind. So, that would be one SRG with standard grind for spindle work and another with swept back wings for..... ouch!, at least in the pocket.

An experienced bowl turner would also realise that a longer handle than the one that came with the SRG was needed to counteract the extra forces involved in taking such a big cut and give more attention to tool overhang.

Keeping your blank attached to the lathe also becomes an issue.

Why not just buy a bigger bowl gouge?
However, I fail to see the difference between using a milled 1" SRG with swept back wings and longer handle, and a 1" 'U' bowl gouge to rough down the outside of the same bowl blank. I wouldn't recommend either for the novice turner, but suggest it may be a closer call for a very experienced bowl turner who wants to give themselves a workout...:o

Personally I prefer 'V' fluted bowl gouges. They are more versatile in the range and depth of cuts they can perform.


Ditto.

Double ditto!!!

Back in the day, a sprained wrist was the result of using a spindle roughing gouge on a bowl...oh,yes, the gouge broke also :o

wheelinround
2nd Oct 2011, 03:34 PM
Double ditto!!!

Back in the day, a sprained wrist was the result of using a spindle roughing gouge on a bowl...oh,yes, the gouge broke also :o


But sprained wrist can happen with any tool used.

Jim and how about a video of how pro's use the SRG to do what you both say can be done but only by pro-turners, show us teach us the right way to do and use it in a roughing bowl situation.

RETIRED
2nd Oct 2011, 04:00 PM
If someone has a video camera and the time to spare I would love to as it easier than trying to type the differences.:cool:

RETIRED
2nd Oct 2011, 04:02 PM
But sprained wrist can happen with any tool used.

Jim and how about a video of how pro's use the SRG to do what you both say can be done but only by pro-turners, show us teach us the right way to do and use it in a roughing bowl situation.I would not use a SRG on a bowl but I could show why you don't.:wink::cool:

wheelinround
2nd Oct 2011, 04:14 PM
you mean like these
(http://www.google.com.au/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=867&q=snapped+roughing+gouge&gbv=2&oq=snapped+roughing+gouge&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3067l11493l0l12388l22l20l0l11l0l0l278l1616l2.2.5l9l0)
please note these are not just broken SRG but also other gouges and tools.

rsser
2nd Oct 2011, 04:20 PM
Small bowl outside, decent sized U shaped SRG, you can manage the cutting edge that's engaged and get a result. A key part of making this work is to have the edge that's cutting supported close up by the tool rest ... on a line down the shaft.

But I can't see why you'd bother unless you're flat broke. A SPG is shall we say basic kit for spindle work (though a shallow flute forged spindle gouge will also work and is perhaps more versatile). It provides max length of cutting edge so you can use it all before returning the the grinder. If it's a U shape ground square across (the most common) you can use the corners to cut rough shoulders.

Just to add to the confusion, you can use a std spindle gouge to do a bowl outside (see Raffan's publications). He likes it cos it's cheaper than using a bowl (ie. deep fluted) gouge.

Well, I'll shell out for a bowl gouge any day.

Clearly the tool term variation here can add to rather than reduce the muddle.

Sturdee
2nd Oct 2011, 07:26 PM
If someone has a video camera and the time to spare I would love to as it easier than trying to type the differences.:cool:


I have a video camera somewhere but have to learn how to put it on the board. I used to transfer videos to my VCR tape but never tried any other.

Provided I work out how to do it, we could do it next weekend at the GTG.


Peter.

Sawdust Maker
2nd Oct 2011, 07:35 PM
I took some video of doing sheer scraping at the GTG here about this time last year.

Unfortunately some twit videoed something over it :doh::((

And I've no idea of how to get it on the forum anyway

powderpost
2nd Oct 2011, 09:02 PM
I learned many years ago, that accepted trade practices were based on the experiences of many tradesmen before me. There are bad, good and better practices. At the same time, I learned to challenge and test established practices, based on questions asked by beginner turners during 20 odd years teaching wood turning, "Why do you do it that way"? This has led to some changes in technique. I have seen a spindle roughing gouge broken on a bowl, a scary incident.

I can and sometimes use a spindle gouge to turn a small bowl.

One thing that ha really stood out was not to use a roughing gouge or a skew, unless in scraping mode, on a bowl because of the changing grain orientation, creating a high propensity for a catch.

THe grain on a 200mm spindle is parallel to the bed and does not present the changing grain direction problem

I have no doubt that there are some who can use a spindle roughing gouge successfully in turning a bowl. But, in my opinion they are flirting with danger.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

Jim

RETIRED
2nd Oct 2011, 10:40 PM
Not a bad video on the use of an SRG. There a couple of points I don't agree with but that is the way of turners.

Might have organised making a video also.

Cindy Drozda Woodturning Lesson - Roughing a Finial Blank - YouTube

wheelinround
3rd Oct 2011, 08:56 AM
So why not point them out so we know as well.:?

RETIRED
3rd Oct 2011, 09:21 AM
Ok then.
1: Why not put the work between centres rather than a chuck? I could understand this if she were finishing the whole job without removing it and reversing.

There seems to be a move for holding everything with a chuck when a spur drive is far safer as you don't have an exposed 4" lump of steel near your knuckles.

It is far quicker to mount the work between centres and take it down to size, put your tenon on and then use a chuck.

2: If she had the correct stance at the start she would not have to step to the left on something so short.

3: If you lift the handle whilst advancing the tool it cuts deeper not scrape. However if you do as she does without advancing the tool it will scrape.

wheelinround
3rd Oct 2011, 12:31 PM
I agree on all

One thing I spotted is the use of the gouge with base facing the chuck and rotating it down with a swinging action his brings the gouge edge/tip closer to the chuck and more chance of bite. I turn the gouge and use it the other way round not sure if its better practice but I feel safer that way, yes it can still bite but the relation between chuck and tool can be seen.

tea lady
3rd Oct 2011, 03:57 PM
She seems to have the lathe very high! Which I guess is fine for such small work, but you need more leverage with less muscle work with bigger stuff.

The tool rest also seems high :pi:

Can't she find a smaller roughing gouge? :doh:

RETIRED
3rd Oct 2011, 04:20 PM
Yep. Picked that too but didn't say anything. It may be a demo lathe and sometimes you take what you are given.

WOODbTURNER
3rd Oct 2011, 06:26 PM
Cindy is a very small lady which might indicate that she is using someone else's lathe.
Saw her at a Turnfest and she is a very good w/t and demonstrator. Her voice is a bit over bearing though.

Jim Carroll
3rd Oct 2011, 06:37 PM
The Omega is David Nittmans lathe Cindys partner.

But when you watch Cindy she seems to prefer the lathe higher.

Just watch Ken Wraight when he does his big finials his lathe is set up an extra 4" so he gets his nose closer to the work.

RETIRED
3rd Oct 2011, 06:50 PM
The Omega is David Nittmans lathe Cindys partner.

But when you watch Cindy she seems to prefer the lathe higher.

Just watch Ken Wraight when he does his big finials his lathe is set up an extra 4" so he gets his nose closer to the work.It is not his nose he wants closer but his eyes. :roflmao:

munruben
3rd Oct 2011, 07:34 PM
It is not his nose he wants closer but his eyes. :roflmao::roflmao::clap::clap:

jefferson
4th Oct 2011, 07:27 PM
The general consensus for all newbies is that the spindle roughing gouge - of whatever make and tang thickness - should not be used on bowl work.

I say bowl work rather than face plate work as many don't use faceplates for turning bowls and platters and use chucks instead.

The reasons for using a bowl gouge are many:

- it is the tool already in hand for both inside and outside of the bowl / platter

- no sharp corners are presented for a potential dig-in

- the tangs / overhang of SRGs are not meant to cope with the stresses of bowl turning

- a similar size bowl gouge will remove as much waste more safetly than an SRG (that said, some noted that a 12mm bowl gouge did much of the work anyway).

All in all, an interesting thread for me and hopefully for old and new turners. Any questions?

Direct them directly to the tool master.

rsser
7th Oct 2011, 05:15 PM
Last I heard was not a fan of the SRG in any application.

Any case, what this thread shows is that there are many ways of killing the cat.

Recall an earlier thread in which folk wouldn't believe that a skew-presented SRG could produce a cleaner cut than one used with the shaft at 90* to a spindle blank.

tea lady
7th Oct 2011, 06:02 PM
Last I heard was not a fan of the SRG in any application.

Any case, what this thread shows is that there are many ways of killing the cat.

Recall an earlier thread in which folk wouldn't believe that a skew-presented SRG could produce a cleaner cut than one used with the shaft at 90* to a spindle blank.Not quite the same debate. this is about safety! Not just skinning cats differently!

Sawdust Maker
7th Oct 2011, 07:40 PM
Not quite the same debate. this is about safety! Not just skinning cats differently!

always wondered, are we after:
a. the skin
b. the skun cat :whistling2:

and what would we do with either?

Paulphot
7th Oct 2011, 08:12 PM
The real question is do you use a bowl gouge or a SRG to skin the cat. The Skew is the sound the cat makes when you skin it...;)

robo hippy
8th Oct 2011, 07:40 AM
Actually, the old saying was about skinning a cat fish. I like the fur on my kitties, except during shedding season.

Simon's Cat 'Cat Man Do' - YouTube

robo hippy

RETIRED
11th Oct 2011, 11:01 PM
My name is Ian Robertson () and I have been a production woodturner for 30 years.

It is how I make my living turning everything from huge posts to tiny eave finials and everything between and my safety record is impeccable. Our business has never had a lost time incident and we still have all our fingers.

This video was made because of a discussion about using a Spindle Roughing Gouge on a bowl on the Woodworking Forums in Australia.

Most tool manufacturers and most experienced woodturners warn against using the Spindle Roughing Gouge for this work, myself included after seeing a few accidents involving the use of this tool on cross grain work.

The following video graphically displays what can happen one day, some day to turners that use this tool for this purpose through a moments inattention and using the Spindle Roughing Gouge for a purpose it was never designed for.

This was a deliberate attempt to get the tool to catch and grab to explain what happens when it does but I did not expect the rather spectacular (and painful) outcome I achieved.

Remember that this was done under controlled circumstances, imagine what could happen in an uncontrolled situation.


DO NOT USE A SPINDLE ROUGHING GOUGE ON BOWLS.

Gore warning at 2:48.



Why you don't use a Spindle Roughing Gouge on bowls. - YouTube

fozz
11th Oct 2011, 11:23 PM
, thankyou for a very graphic and painfull explaination. For someone like me still learning, the explaination after was extremely informative. Hope the fingers heal quickly.

robo hippy
12th Oct 2011, 03:42 AM
A couple of wrong things done with the tool, for the cut you were doing.

First, you were using it like a scraper, with the edge about 90 degrees to the wood rotation. We all know that when using a scraper, you work above center, and with the tool angled down. You had the handle lowered, and that is like sticking your finger into the fan with pointing into the spin, not pointing away from the spin. Catch is guaranteed. That cutting technique, with the handle dropped works on spindles, not on bowls.

Second, you have the flutes at a scraping angle, and not at a shear angle, as in rolled over on the side at 45 or so degrees. With the flutes at the scraping angle, the inside/square corner nearest to the center of the wood will come into contact with the wood, and the tool is unbalanced as in the part that is cutting isn't over the tool rest, so it will want to roll into the wood, and catch.

Third, when you get the catch, you are extended quite a ways off the tool rest. You lose tool control and are over come with leverage.

This demonstration could have been done at slow speeds on the lathe, which would show the event in slow motion. Showing this type of accident at slow speed is much safer, and you would not have had to donate blood to the turning gods. Showing things at slow speeds is a great teaching tool.

The first cut you did, on the outside corners of the square blank were, again, a scraping cut with the handle lowered.

If the tool is used in a shear cut mode, rolled on its side, the corners of the gouge wings can not come into contact with the spinning wood, and you will not get a catch. The danger factor here is trying to use a spindle roughing gouge to cut a bowl in the same way you would use it to cut a spindle. It can be used safely on bowls, but a lot of people tend to use it the same way they would on spindles.

robo hippy

robo hippy
12th Oct 2011, 06:42 AM
,
As an after thought, would you hold a bowl gouge and present it to the wood the same way (bevel angles, flute roll/angles, handle angles) that you do with the SRG to make those cuts?

robo hippy

Jim Carroll
12th Oct 2011, 09:06 AM
Robo I think Robbos video shows exactly what can happen when using a srg on faceplate work. And this was only on the outside of the work, imagine what could happen on the inside of a bowl :oo:

Most people would pick up the tool in the same manner as they would for spindle work and not give any real thought about changing angles to present the tool to the work like they do with a bowl gouge.

I agree with what you say about the gouge overhang , as you watch the video you can see the tool fall into the arc and the nose gets lower also creating the problem, this also lets the wings get into that awkward position of catching.

Luckily in this case because of the catch was minimal the tang of the tool did not break and have an airborne missile.

They get the bowl gouge in their hands and know how it should be presented and dont have any problems. Or should I say minimise the problems.

SPINDLE Roughing gouge

RETIRED
12th Oct 2011, 05:29 PM
A couple of wrong things done with the tool, for the cut you were doing.

First, you were using it like a scraper, with the edge about 90 degrees to the wood rotation. It was definitely in a cutting mode with the handle low, bevel rubbing.We all know that when using a scraper, you work above center, and with the tool angled down. When scraping you should be working with the edge either on or below centre so that if it grabs it moves the tool downwards and away from the timber. You had the handle lowered, and that is like sticking your finger into the fan with pointing into the spin, not pointing away from the spin. It only cuts that way not scrapes. Catch is guaranteed. Not always, as I said I tried for 6 hours to get a catch. That cutting technique, with the handle dropped works on spindles, not on bowls. Most bowl turners I have seen always have the handle lower than the edge to cut the timber unless you are on a small lathe where you have to use the tool horizontal to gain clearance over the bed.

Second, you have the flutes at a scraping angle, and not at a shear angle, as in rolled over on the side at 45 or so degrees. If you watch the video closely the side of the “bowl” is angled roughly the same as the bevel on the chisel. This is where it gets its directional support from. With the flutes at the scraping angle, the inside/square corner nearest to the center of the wood will come into contact with the wood, and the tool is unbalanced as in the part that is cutting isn't over the tool rest, so it will want to roll into the wood, and catch. That would be true if not for the foregoing response.

Third, when you get the catch, you are extended quite a ways off the tool rest. You lose tool control and are over come with leverage. That is true but how many people do not move the tool rest until the last moment?

This demonstration could have been done at slow speeds on the lathe, which would show the event in slow motion. This was rotating at under 1200 RPM which is slow for me. A blank of that size and timber we do at about 2000RPM. Showing this type of accident at slow speed is much safer, and you would not have had to donate blood to the turning gods. Showing things at slow speeds is a great teaching tool. Slow speed can also induce accidents in that type of blank (square edge) because you are turning fresh air with a longer time until cutting.

The first cut you did, on the outside corners of the square blank were, again, a scraping cut with the handle lowered. It was definitely a cut. Handle down, bevel in alignment with the timber being cut.

If the tool is used in a shear cut mode, rolled on its side, the corners of the gouge wings can not come into contact with the spinning wood, and you will not get a catch. Yes you can because there is not much clearance between where the tool is cutting and the corner of the gouge. In fact there is less than using it straight in on a cut like this.

Angling it does give it better bevel support.
The danger factor here is trying to use a spindle roughing gouge to cut a bowl in the same way you would use it to cut a spindle. That is the way that most novices use it and that was the point that I was trying to make. It can be used safely on bowls, but a lot of people tend to use it the same way they would on spindles. It can never be used on bowls safely because one day it will get you.

robo hippy

RETIRED
12th Oct 2011, 05:39 PM
,
As an after thought, would you hold a bowl gouge and present it to the wood the same way (bevel angles, flute roll/angles, handle angles) that you do with the SRG to make those cuts?

robo hippyThis should answer it.

tea lady
12th Oct 2011, 05:41 PM
,
As an after thought, would you hold a bowl gouge and present it to the wood the same way (bevel angles, flute roll/angles, handle angles) that you do with the SRG to make those cuts?

robo hippyHavign been there as a witness (And band aid monitor.:rolleyes:) The way was using the SRG was one of the few ways you could actually get it to cut in that situation! Definitely in cutting mode rather than scraping as you seem to see. In scraping mode the only bit of the tool that would touch the work is the wings. :C Which I think would be quite exiting, but not much use! :rolleyes:

Don't quite understand your description of "sheer scraping" that you say would be a safe way to use the SRG on face plate. work. I use sheer scraping with a bowl gouge for the finishing cut on just about everything. Using that method to rough out a bowl with a SRG seems a bit slow...... and daft.....:C

I'd just use a bowl gouge to rough a bowl anyway! Even on spindle work my SRG gets spider webs on it cos I always use a traditional rouging gouge, or a skew on smaller things. :shrug: Or even a bowl gouge on spindle work. :rolleyes::U

robo hippy
12th Oct 2011, 05:51 PM
,
I couldn't get the second video to play. I do turn bowls that size at about the same speed.

I guess all I can say is that I really wish we could spend a day turning together.

I am working on a bowl turning video, and will send it to you when it is done. Hopefully in another month. Then, if I win the lotto, I can take a trip down south.

robo hippy

RETIRED
12th Oct 2011, 06:14 PM
,
I couldn't get the second video to play. Go here for a great little program to view most videos.http://www.altools.com/ALTools/ALPlayer.aspx I do turn bowls that size at about the same speed.

I guess all I can say is that I really wish we could spend a day turning together. I would enjoy that.

I am working on a bowl turning video, and will send it to you when it is done. Hopefully in another month. The editing is the longest and most aggravating bit. Then, if I win the lotto, I can take a trip down south.

robo hippyHope you win Lotto.:D

Link to program. http://www.altools.com/ALTools/ALPlayer.aspx

Sawdust Maker
12th Oct 2011, 07:41 PM
Did the slow motion catch get posted?

BTW
, Thanks for taking the time and doing this :2tsup:

RETIRED
12th Oct 2011, 08:03 PM
Did the slow motion catch get posted?

BTW
, Thanks for taking the time and doing this :2tsup:I can't slow it down enough without blurring.

Haven't tried frame by frame. My editing skills need a LOT of honing.:wink:

KenW
12th Oct 2011, 08:51 PM
, I always tell people that use a SRG for faceplate work "your luck Will run out and you Will get hurt".
I'm sorry that you had to get hurt to prove this statement correct. I hope your finger heals quickly.
The comments made after you posted this video about your tool work, show how much misguided information is being passed on to unsuspecting new turners.
Keep up the good work passing on accurate information.

powderpost
12th Oct 2011, 10:13 PM
I agree 100% with your comments Ken. , I also hope your wound heals quickly and well. I have seen some pretty spectacular results from the same exercise, even after the blank is cut round on the bandsaw. In fact that produces some rather excitingly large javelins from the side grain.
Jim

tea lady
13th Oct 2011, 04:51 PM
, I always tell people that use a SRG for faceplate work "your luck Will run out and you Will get hurt".
I'm sorry that you had to get hurt to prove this statement correct. I hope your finger heals quickly.
The comments made after you posted this video about your tool work, show how much misguided information is being passed on to unsuspecting new turners.
Keep up the good work passing on accurate information.At one place I go to the "teachers" actually show beginners to use a SRG to rough down a bowl blank! :doh: For some reason they have the impression that using a bowl gouge is more dangerous, and understanding the use of a bowl gouge is to hard for a beginner! :doh: They also use huge scrapers to finish cut the shapes. :C So at least they won't be a threat any time soon at the National Turning Competition! :rolleyes:

Paul39
14th Oct 2011, 02:09 AM
Thank you for a most convincing demonstration.

I hope you heal quickly.

robo hippy
14th Oct 2011, 03:55 AM
When I do use a SRG on a bowl, this is how I do it.

robo hippy Bowl Finish Cuts with a Spindle Roughing Gouge - YouTube

robo hippy

jchappo
14th Oct 2011, 07:45 AM
Ah!
At last we have come to an agreement.
The SRG is NOT suitable for roughing out a bowl!

Good video Robo Hippy

Jim Carroll
14th Oct 2011, 08:49 AM
Robo Thanks for your explanation and video on how you use the roughing gouge on the outside of a bowl.

The finishing cut is good and showing the positioning of the gouge is good.

As you indicated it has its place but still not a tool you could recomend 100% for bowl work as proven in the wrong hands it could be disasterous.

robo hippy
15th Oct 2011, 11:55 AM
After thinking about 's comment that the handle low, cutting edge high so that it could rub the bevel, and it was not a scraping cut because the bevel was rubbing, I went out to the shop and tried it, with a scraper. Scraper has a 75 degree bevel. Rubbed the heel of the bevel, and raised than handle till it just started cutting. It did give a slightly smoother surface than I would have expected with a pure, non bevel rubbing cut. Made me nervous though.

"When sphincter tightening exceeds chuck tightening, you have a problem." from Pat's Fan on Wood Net Forums.

That cut does make me nervous. Don't think I will use it. I did try it with burr from the grinder, and with the burr honed off, and square to the side, but on a round piece, not one with wings. It cut fairly well both ways, but I don't think I would use it for a roughing cut. Sphincter tightening just thinking about it.

's video has made it onto several of the US forums.

robo hippy

tea lady
15th Oct 2011, 02:53 PM
I wouldn't do that with a scraper either Robo.Hippy.:C Although I think Ken Wrait does. But doing it with a bowl gouge on a kind of an angle and its self correcting. Nearly impossible to get a catch.:cool: No clenching or anything! :D

RETIRED
15th Oct 2011, 08:50 PM
Robo. Liked the video and your use of the cut out gouge. I still would not use a Spindle Roughing gouge for it.

I use large wooden tools to show an audience, very helpful.

I am trying to think of the best way to describe the action of a bowl gouge to you.

I would not use a scraper that way either, it is like trying to use a skew, another nono on a bowl unless as a scraper.

RETIRED
15th Oct 2011, 09:26 PM
All my gouges are ground at 45 degrees approx.

I saw a film the other day that used the expression 45, 45, 45. It is very apt

First 45 is the angle at which the handle and blade is at.

The second 45 refers to the angle at which the back bevel (this also guides the depth of cut and provides bevel support for the tool) enters the timber.

The third 45 refers to the angle of the flute, facing in the direction of the cut.

I hope that makes sense, again something that can be best shown but hard to describe. :D

These are close to the way I do a bowl. Note the difference between a cutting angle v's a scraping angle.

Video: Wood Turning a Bowl: Cut the Tenon | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/video_4972790_wood-turning-bowl-cut-tenon.html)

Video: Wood Turning a Bowl: Steer From Behind | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/video_4972799_wood-turning-bowl-steer-from.html)

robo hippy
16th Oct 2011, 04:45 AM
The way I see it, with the scraper cut I tried, handle low, rub the bevel, and raise the handle till the cutting edge engages, is the same as the cut you do with your SRG. Same cut, different tool, slightly different bevel angle. It does make me nervous.

When you make a finish or roughing cut, there is less force if the tool is skewed, or the cutting edge is 45 degrees or more to the rotation of the wood. This can be done by dropping the handle, and rolling the flutes away from the wood. The more the nose profile resembles ) the less you have to drop the handle. The more V the nose profile is, the more you have to drop the handle.

The prop I used in the video is supposed to resemble the flutes of your gouge. I have seen the mock ups of gouges, but don't have one. With the one I show, I put it on the ways of the lathe, and rock it like a teeter totter (you know. long board on a fulcrum with seats and handles at the kids play grounds. Same name down there?). When it comes to rest, I point out that it is now balanced.

I have heard the 40/40 bevel angle idea. A beaver's teeth are naturally at those angles, and they should be the best for cutting. I only have one gouge at that angle, and don't really like it. It is fine for use on the outside of the bowl, and fine for going down the inside of the bowl, but you can not go through the transition and across the bottom with it. In watching Stuart Batty and his gouges, he uses that grind, but keeps the handle fairly level. He does go up on the wing a bit, which to me presents a fine line between being supported by the bevel and getting unbalanced and rolling into the cut. He does have a bottom of the bowl gouge. If you drop the handle, then you have a coupound miter angle on your bevel and sweep. Don't really know if it makes any difference.

Most of my gouges are ground with the bevel at about 60 degrees or so. This will get me through most transition areas, and across most bottoms. I do have a couple that are ground at 75 degrees for transition and bottoms.

I am still experimenting. Probably will be at least till my birth certificate expires.

robo hippy

RETIRED
16th Oct 2011, 08:31 AM
I am still experimenting. Probably will be at least till my birth certificate expires.That is what it is all about.:cool:

Grommett
16th Oct 2011, 11:55 AM
With the one I show, I put it on the ways of the lathe, and rock it like a teeter totter (you know. long board on a fulcrum with seats and handles at the kids play grounds. Same name down there?).

obo hippy

Down here we call them a see-saw:D

wheelinround
16th Oct 2011, 06:46 PM
Robo hippy good video as is 's but neither answer the question.

The point has been made both by and Jim that only Pro's should use and know how to use a SRG for roughing out bowls, therefore it is possible to do.

went to extremes to show how and what can happen taking over 6 hrs to do so and then as would and can happen a catch due to misuse.

The term Spindel roughing gouge has only been around since the I think from memory pointed out on this forum before since the 80's. Please correct me if wrong.

Jchappo sorry he is NOT Roughing OUT a bowl or roughing down he is as stated doing Finish cut and this is being done on the outer edge one which is already roughed down to almost smooth. His use of his SRG has swept back wings unlike 's square faced SRG but that could be used for the same cut.

I also believe the injury Robb sustained can and has happened with any type of tool used whilest turning and worse injuries, more so if you hang onto the tool and its not snapped out of your hands regardless of strength agility or smarts.

Me personally I will not turn at a demonstration situation due to my ability and the fact I have to adapt to my needs. I will however watch listen read even ll the stuff by the many self taught pro's. I have even at my own club asked members to vacate the area for their own safety.:U Thank goodness my lathe is now home where I can turn in piece.

I turn for pleasure not for profit. I was taught to turn at school over 4 years by tradesman not a Uni wood teacher and then the tool was called a roughing gouge.

Many turners have made tools to suit their needs these have now come into production and commercialisation where any Joe blow can buy them include along with this coming up with supposedly new grinds. This argument then leaves it to the designer and retailer to teach/educate the user BUT they must themselves learn to understand the end user and their ability and needs.

robo hippy
17th Oct 2011, 03:50 AM
The SRG I used does not have any sweep to the wings. It is ground straight across, and square.

robo hippy

jchappo
17th Oct 2011, 07:50 AM
Jchappo sorry he is NOT Roughing OUT a bowl or roughing down he is as stated doing Finish cut and this is being done on the outer edge one which is already roughed down to almost smooth. His use of his SRG has swept back wings unlike 's square faced SRG but that could be used for the same cut.



Wheelin - Don't you think that I noticed he wasn't roughing out?

I was referring to Robo Hippy's comment that he wasn't comfortable using the SRG for roughing out - At last an agreement!!

RETIRED
18th Oct 2011, 07:09 PM
Sorry this is a long winded post but a few things needed to be clarified and I have not had time.


Wheelin. At no time have I advocated the use of a SPINDLE Roughing Gouge for roughing out a bowl even by "PROS". Not sure which Jim you are referring to.

The only time it has even been mentioned is here by NeilS: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/spindle-roughing-gouges-bowl-work-141711/#post1381483

I didn't get a chance to answer your post 22

Can a spindle roughing gouge be re-ground to the shape of a roughing bowl gouge or don't grinders or the steel allow this. Yes they can be reground but the steel is generally thinner and the the tang is still a weak point (solid SRG's excluded)

Maybe a show of peoples SRG's and manufactures SRG's and grinds, as well as BRG's are shown it will possibly stem all doubt a decent video showing the use of both in correct and non-correct use. There is NO correct way to use a SRG on roughing out a bowl. It will get you one day as the video shows.

Now will this also be the same all around the world remember or US fellows love to scrape rather than cut. and in 3rd world countries well even in the UK they still make their own tools.

What do you use if the blank is a rough spindle or log a SRG is right for any timber where the grain is parallel to the bed or something like a Norfolk pine where shape knots and that rough exterior means tool overhang is not consistent in trying to get the shape. Sections of branches are sticking out giving you knots and endgrain to turn and rough down. A spindle gouge is fine for the outside but I would use a Bowl gouge with swept back wings for the inside because it requires a cut from the centre to the outside.
What to use if doing a natural edge bowl where log is horizontal to face plate not spindle. Again a bowl gouge is your friend. Isn't that turning end grain? or visa versa?? Depends on the orientation of the grain and the type of natural edge bowl. If in doubt use a bowl gouge.

If doing a platter is there such as a platter roughing gouge No there is no Platter roughing gouge. A platter is a big shallow BOWL with the grain generally running across the lathe bed. after all its not a bowl It is a bowl nor a spindle Definitely not a spindle unless it is a log sliced through, then it becomes spindle AND end grain turning. and could have alternative grain being laminated or segmented same for spindle working laminated and segmented jobs. I would treat laminated or segmented as a bowl but again it depends on the orientation of the segments. As I said, if in doubt use a bowl gouge.

The above must see Jim changing tools as fast as the lathe goes round.


What is used if doing a diagonal crosscut section of a log ??? A bowl gouge.

Your post 24.


But sprained wrist can happen with any tool used. True. If improperly used or the wrong tool for the job. It is the only time a tool will catch. Operator error every time.

Jim and how about a video of how pro's use the SRG to do what you both say can be done but only by pro-turners, show us teach us the right way to do and use it in a roughing bowl situation. As I said in response to this “I will show why you DON”T use a SRG on roughing out a bowl.

As Jim (Powderpost) said here in post 31.


I learned many years ago, that accepted trade practices were based on the experiences of many tradesmen before me. There are bad, good and better practices. At the same time, I learned to challenge and test established practices, based on questions asked by beginner turners during 20 odd years teaching wood turning, "Why do you do it that way"? This has led to some changes in technique. I have seen a spindle roughing gouge broken on a bowl, a scary incident. In most cases people nearly always come back to the old trade practices for a very good reason. They work these turners made their money from the quantity they produced. They had to be efficient. An injury meant no work and there was no compo. No work, no money.

Tools have changed and some techniques have changed but the basic principles and reasons WHY you don’t use a particular tool for that job remain the same.

Jeff sums it all up pretty well here in post 42.


The general consensus for all newbies is that the spindle roughing gouge - of whatever make and tang thickness - should not be used on bowl work. NO ONE SHOULD.

I say bowl work rather than face plate work as many don't use faceplates for turning bowls and platters and use chucks instead.

The reasons for using a bowl gouge are many:

- it is the tool already in hand for both inside and outside of the bowl / platter

- no sharp corners are presented for a potential dig-in

- the tangs / overhang of SRGs are not meant to cope with the stresses of bowl turning

- a similar size bowl gouge will remove as much waste more safetly than an SRG (that said, some noted that a 12mm bowl gouge did much of the work anyway).

All in all, an interesting thread for me and hopefully for old and new turners. Any questions?

RSSER in post 43.

Last I heard was not a fan of the SRG in any application. ? I use one every day.

Any case, what this thread shows is that there are many ways of killing the cat.

Recall an earlier thread in which folk wouldn't believe that a skew-presented SRG could produce a cleaner cut than one used with the shaft at 90* to a spindle blank.

Posted by TeaLady post 62.

At one place I go to the "teachers" actually show beginners to use a SRG to rough down a bowl blank! For some reason they have the impression that using a bowl gouge is more dangerous, and understanding the use of a bowl gouge is to hard for a beginner!

They also use huge scrapers to finish cut the shapes. So at least they won't be a threat any time soon at the National Turning Competition! This is a pet hate of mine, most demonstrators and tutors that teach CORRECT, SAFE methods.

Self proclaimed club “gurus” that teach wrong methods and tool handling and even when shown the correct way go back to their methods.

One day someone will get seriously hurt.

Now to answer the latest from Wheelin post 74.


Robo hippy good video as is 's but neither answer the question.

The point has been made both by and Jim that only Pro's should use and know how to use a SRG for roughing out bowls, therefore it is possible to do. At no time have I ever said that only Pros should use a SRG for bowl work.

went to extremes to show how and what can happen taking over 6 hrs to do so and then as would and can happen a catch due to misuse.

The term Spindel roughing gouge has only been around since the I think from memory pointed out on this forum before since the 80's. Please correct me if wrong.
The spindle roughing gouge has been in use for as long as written history in the English furniture trade.

2 types were used: the “U” shape and a large spindle gouge which I favour.

The term came into being in about the 80's to categorize the tool because everyone started turning bowls instead of learning spindle turning first. Prior to that it was known as a roughing gouge.

Had they learnt spindle turning they would realise the implications of using a Spindle roughing gouge on bowls and the confusion would not exist.

Jchappo sorry he is NOT Roughing OUT a bowl or roughing down he is as stated doing Finish cut and this is being done on the outer edge one which is already roughed down to almost smooth. His use of his SRG has swept back wings unlike 's square faced SRG but that could be used for the same cut. The wings are not swept back as Robo has pointed out.

If you put swept back wings on it is no longer a SRG.

I also believe the injury Robb sustained can and has happened with any type of tool used whilest turning and worse injuries, more so if you hang onto the tool and its not snapped out of your hands regardless of strength agility or smarts. Agreed, any tool can catch if not used correctly for the right pupose.

Me personally I will not turn at a demonstration situation due to my ability and the fact I have to adapt to my needs. I will however watch listen read even ll the stuff by the many self taught pro's. I have even at my own club asked members to vacate the area for their own safety. Thank goodness my lathe is now home where I can turn in piece.

I turn for pleasure not for profit. I was taught to turn at school over 4 years by tradesman not a Uni wood teacher and then the tool was called a roughing gouge.

Many turners have made tools to suit their needs these have now come into production and commercialisation where any Joe blow can buy them include along with this coming up with supposedly new grinds. This argument then leaves it to the designer and retailer to teach/educate the user BUT they must themselves learn to understand the end user and their ability and needs.Unfortunately there are some good wood turners but lousy teachers and there are good teachers but lousy wood turners out there.

Even more unfortunate is the fact that most people listen to the latter.

wheelinround
19th Oct 2011, 09:15 AM
hippy it was square faced my apologies.

the comment about Pro use was in the thread when the video of Pop's shed using tools I couldn't locate the thread. Jim Carroll not Powderpost made the comment and I am sure you also.

Many thanks for the replies


Top tips (http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/tip.htm)
Roughing Gouge
It is worth reiterating that the woodturner's roughing gouge is designed for spindle work only and on no account should be used for roughing out bowls or hollow forms, which is an error many a woodturner makes. The roughing gouge is not intended to withstand the rigours of changing grain direction. One of the consequences of this misuse is the potential for the gouge to snap at its weakest point, the tang, whilst in contact with a piece of wood travelling at over 1000 rpm. That can have disastrous consequences for the unwitting turner. There are many other tools specifically designed for roughing or hollowing out bowls. Instead, the roughing gouge - or spindle roughing gouge, as its is also known - is intended to convert square stock to round between centres. It can be used both aggressively or with finesse.
So, please, use the roughing gouge for its intended purpose and avoid broken tools.

tea lady
19th Oct 2011, 04:50 PM
the comment about Pro use was in the thread when the video of Pop's shed using tools I couldn't locate the thread. Jim Carroll not Powderpost made the comment and I am sure you also.
:pi: Is the comment supposed to be in that quote. I can't see it! It says "and on no account should be used for roughing out bowls or hollow forms "

wheelinround
19th Oct 2011, 05:44 PM
:pi: Is the comment supposed to be in that quote. I can't see it! It says "and on no account should be used for roughing out bowls or hollow forms "

No 's checked and I can't find my ? "Why is it only pros can do it":(

nz_carver
21st Oct 2011, 03:41 PM
Why you don't use a Spindle Roughing Gouge on bowls. - YouTube (http://youtu.be/IOhHeyoZLaY)
Watch it kids

robo hippy
22nd Oct 2011, 06:33 AM
,
I have watched your video a number of times. It looks like when you have the catch, you have raised the handle a bit, which would cause the bevel to no longer be rubbing, turning the cut into a scraping cut, and that resulted in the catch. That would have also dragged the corner of the wing into the wood.

robo hippy

nz_carver
22nd Oct 2011, 07:46 AM
Now kis I'm not taking sides and I'm not sitting here all dam day reading over
Post but I will say this I think what has been said here has been taken way out of contex

I,e Jim, , powder post are all pro turners
That at some point in here life have turned full time and made a living out of it

So they turn alot more then the average woodturner who turns about 1 to 4 hrs a week as a average

So by saying only pro turners can do something I think what it means is it one of them things if your doing simething 40hrs a week for you life at work you know what to look for, and it's more of a safety thing as well

So dam it kids stop this cut and past crap and stop having a go at each other

I Think is sad when all people can do is work them selfs up over words that may or may not have been said in the rite or wrong way

tea lady
22nd Oct 2011, 09:19 AM
,
I have watched your video a number of times. It looks like when you have the catch, you have raised the handle a bit, which would cause the bevel to no longer be rubbing, turning the cut into a scraping cut, and that resulted in the catch. That would have also dragged the corner of the wing into the wood.

robo hippyThe wing can catch whether or not the bevel is rubbing!

USE A B!@@%& BOWL GOUGE! !

Grommett
22nd Oct 2011, 04:31 PM
The wing can catch whether or not the bevel is rubbing!

USE A B!@@%& BOWL GOUGE! !

Enough said:tapedshut:

robo hippy
24th Oct 2011, 04:49 AM
I do not approve of using a SRG on bowls. There are better tools more suited to that purpose.

The wings of a SRG can not come into contact with the spinning wood if the gouge is rolled on its side like I do, or if it has the handle dropped and the bevel rubbing like is doing. He tried for 6 hours to get the catch, and finally did when he raised the handle. By raising the handle, a couple of things happened. He came off the bevel, which turned the cut into a scrape, engaged a whole lot more of the cutting edge into the wood, pulled the tool down more into the wood, and there was a catch. Because of the square shape he was turning, the inside wing of the bowl caught the inside wing of the gouge a fraction of a second before the outsides engaged. You can do the same thing with a more conventional gouge. This is almost identical to what happens if you come off the bevel with a skew. The difference here is that with a skew, it skates down the length of the spindle, rather than down into the tool rest.

I have caught the wings of most of my gouges at one time or another, that includes swept back gouges, 45/45 bevel/sweep gouges, and others.

The skill I show in my short video, to me, is a Tool Technique 101/entry level skill, not master level.

The wings catch, not because of inherent dangers with the tool, they catch because the cutting part of the tool is not directly over the tool rest, and it rolls into the spinning wood.

I seldom use gouges for roughing. For that I resort to scrapers as they, to me, are just more efficient. The gouges are better for finish cuts as they are better suited for rolling on their sides, and rubbing the bevel. I can do the same cuts with scrapers as in high shear angle, and rubbing the bevel, if the cutting edge is balanced on the tool rest. If I am going to do a non bevel rubbing shear cut (called a shear scrape) I prefer a scraper to a gouge.

I am not normal. Just me and my idiot syncracies. I, for some reason can't be satisfied with "don't do this". I have to know the how and why.

robo hippy

jefferson
25th Oct 2011, 08:21 PM
I am different. I prefer a scraper for my primary roughing tool on bowls.

Robo Hippy,

It is very interesting reading some of your techniques on roughing bowls. Over here, it would almost be absurd to rough DRY bowls with a scraper. Even with wet wood, surely a bowl gouge would give you a better result?

Just questions, nothing more.

For comparison, we would rate Osage Orange as medium in terms of hardness. Do you rough dry OO with a scraper?

Or are you a pattern maker in disguise? (For those not in the know, PMs scrape and don't use gouges).:D

robo hippy
26th Oct 2011, 04:16 AM
Most of what I turn is Pacific Madrone. Hardness is similar to cherry or apple. Not really hard. Oregon Myrtle (actually California Bay Laurel) is harder with interlocking grain, no problem with scrapers. The black locust and Osage are similar, and I do use scrapers on them, but at a much less vigorous pace. I have some Mountain Mahogany (grows in high mountain desert) which in hardness is up there, and I can use scrapers on it, but like most really hard woods, you can not be aggressive when cutting it. I mostly will use a gouge on it as my scrapers are 1 1/4 inch or so wide, and too much for that kind of wood.

No, I never was a pattern maker. Concrete work yes.

"Hippy, you are too dang fussy to do concrete work!"

"Thanks!"

robo hippy

NeilS
27th Oct 2011, 02:35 PM
I seldom use gouges for roughing. For that I resort to scrapers as they, to me, are just more efficient. The gouges are better for finish cuts as they are better suited for rolling on their sides, and rubbing the bevel. I can do the same cuts with scrapers as in high shear angle, and rubbing the bevel, if the cutting edge is balanced on the tool rest. If I am going to do a non bevel rubbing shear cut (called a shear scrape) I prefer a scraper to a gouge.


I find a carbide tipped 'scraper' works well on green wood, particularly for removing the bark from the outside of blanks which contains stuff that makes HSS blunt very quickly. They are also good for getting some of our hard desert acacias under control before switching to a gouge. At this stage we can buy the square or squarish carbide tips at a reasonable price. The round tips, which are better for what I use them for, are still only available at a premium price, otherwise I would use them more often.

Jeff - my BIL was a pattern maker and his shop only ever used negative rake scrapers, but he was on about fine tolerances not fine finish.

jefferson
27th Oct 2011, 03:20 PM
The round tips, which are better for what I use them for, are still only available at a premium price, otherwise I would use them more often.



Neil,

the Ci0 round inserts can be sharpened on the Tormek black wheel. Saves me a fortune!

NeilS
27th Oct 2011, 03:45 PM
Neil,

the Ci0 round inserts can be sharpened on the Tormek black wheel. Saves me a fortune!

Yeah, the diamond wheel also does a good job on the carbide tips, but they eventually become too small for the holder and have to be replaced. At $18 a piece for the round ones it doesn't take many of those to end up costing more than a good gouge. The square ones can be sourced at $5-6 a piece which then becomes economical.

tea lady
27th Oct 2011, 05:21 PM
:C I hate using scrapers of any sort for roughing! The "shavings" or rather "chips" go straight up inside the face mask, unless you take up a weird pose! :rolleyes: I guess sometimes they are the best choice! But as I am getting the knack with the gouges that is happening less and less. (Them being the best choice of tool is happening less and less I mean! :doh:)

rsser
27th Oct 2011, 05:23 PM
My judgement of the EWT circular tips compared with their square ones is that the bevel has been polished at the factory; that might explain the price difference. And if you save them just for finishing, which is what the maker intended, the pain of the price is spread over more pieces.

jefferson
27th Oct 2011, 05:33 PM
:C I hate using scrapers of any sort for roughing!


I sort of agree with you Tea Lady for 99% of the time. Sometimes though the wood is that hard you either go down in gouge size and take a smaller cut (still sharpening all the time), or you go via the tungsten tip route.

Same as the work does with the Ci1 on those rock-hard, decades-old lamp posts. Time and place for everything.

Are we off thread yet? No matter.

tea lady
27th Oct 2011, 05:44 PM
I sort of agree with you Tea Lady for 99% of the time. Sometimes though the wood is that hard you either go down in gouge size and take a smaller cut (still sharpening all the time), or you go via the tungsten tip route.

Same as the work does with the Ci1 on those rock-hard, decades-old lamp posts. Time and place for everything.

Are we off thread yet? No matter.Yes! But I am now finding it easier to use a gouge:cool:

nz_carver
27th Oct 2011, 05:51 PM
ROUND 2 FIGHT!!!!!:doh:

rsser
27th Oct 2011, 05:55 PM
If you look at Dale Nish's book from way back, Creative Woodturning IIRC, he shows only a scraper for bowl hollowing.

Works on green timber as RH posted and on timbers of lower density.

But with the required practice, a bowl gouge is better IMO because it's 'self-jigging'. Ie. it's guided (or should be) by the bevel.

In experienced hands a scraper is guided by its pivot point on the tool rest firstly, and by feedback provided by the shavings at its cutting edge.

robo hippy
28th Oct 2011, 04:10 AM
This is how I use a scraper.

robo hippy turns a bowl with scrapers - YouTube

This is how I use a gouge.

robo hippy Turns A Bowl With Gouges - YouTube

I have never had the shavings go in my face from a scraper. Perhaps this will explain that a bit better.

robo hippy

tea lady
28th Oct 2011, 08:18 AM
I have never had the shavings go in my face from a scraper. Perhaps this will explain that a bit better.

robo hippyThis time I am talking about a scraper on spindle turning! :U

rsser
28th Oct 2011, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the demo vids Reed.

As for spindle roughing, yes the Easy Rougher fires chips twds your face which is why EWT offers an optional deflector. I guess this tool falls into the scraper category but in the early stages of roughing it chips rather than scrapes and it doesn't have a burr. The burr turns a std scraper into a cutting tool with a very low cutting angle and can produce fine shavings rather than chips when used to refine a piece.

Just rereading the turning chapter in Lee's book on sharpening: he says that before about 1975 SRGs were almost unknown. Clearly turners were using the large forged spindle gouges that mentioned. Or perhaps hammered their skews with roughing.

Acc. to Lee the advantage of a U shaped SPG on a spindle is that the cutting edges to the side of the flute bottom sever the fibres before they're lifted out so producing a cleaner cut. (BTW, apologies for misrepresenting your view of these).

....

As for what's learned and how, IMO the apprenticeship system, whether formal or informal, is inherently conservative. The apprentice has to learn the master's way or fail. Thus what the Master learned is passed on and embedded in the practice of each generation of apprentices.

Meantime there will have been changes in metallurgy and tool manufacture, sharpening media, jigs and grinds.

Polishing gouge flutes is still uncommon yet the benefits were cogently argued for 15 years ago. Taking the burr off a scraper and using a honed top also appears uncommon, though NeilS's test showed clear benefits, and again Lee 15 years ago showed the value of turning up an edge (aka hook) with a burnisher on such a scraper. The limitations of a distinct hollow grind were also pointed out by Lee and yet we see more 6" bench grinders being sold in relation to 8".

Well that's a topic for a thesis or book; not a forum.