Need new waterstone, what to choose?

[Andreas87]

Hi all!:)

Some time ago I bought myself some water stones, a king 1000-8000# and a naniwa 3000#.

Since that time i have flattened a lot of chisels and plane blades and it has taken its toll on my 1000# stone. I also have a dmt diamond stone witch I use to flatten the stones. I made a thread earlier on the same subject and I got a lot of good advice especially from stu and Derek. The reason I’m making a new thread now is to get some reviews of the stones you guys use.

My sharpening process is as follows:

Sandpaper on glass: 80#.->120#->320# wanted to go higher but i didn’t find any store that had glue on sandpaper in that grit.

Then I jump to my dmt stone (not really that effective) so I quickly jump to my king 1000# stone witch I use the most in the flattening process. It dishes VERY fast so I need to flatten it every 2 min or so..... I try to use all of the surface/turn stone but alas...
Then it's over to the 3000# stone then 8000# and finally paste on leather.

It works and the results are good but my king stone is halfway used up. I have had it for less than 2 months:C (In its defense, I have used it ALOT)

I am new to sharpening with water stones so a good technique would probably reduce the wear significantly! I use sandpaper for shaping but the front of the chisel is slightly out of flat after so I use some time on the 1000# stone to get this fixed (I only use sandpaper on the ones that’s bellied the wrong way)

In any case I’m glad I bought the king stone I really learned a lot about keeping a stone flat and I could try and fail on it without destroying an expensive stone.
I use about 2-3 hours on each chisel from rusty bellied to polished sharp, is this a lot? (It feels like a lot)

I was wondering what stones you guys use. Are you happy with you stones? Any recommendations are greatly appreciated!:2tsup:

[Schtoo]

Ask me in a few weeks.

I didn't want you to think you're on your own here more than anything, but I can't say more than "ask me in a few weeks" because I've got something I can't really talk about here at the moment that is rather good.

I've only had it for a few days, it's a prototype and I don't know when it will be commercially available yet.

It'll be worth the wait, I promise.

But it won't exactly be 'cheap'. Not too expensive, but not cheap either.

Stu.

[rsser]

That's a tease Stu!

I've had good results flattening backs with a Shapton #120 stepping up to a Sigma Power Select II #240 and then going to a #1000. Have used a Bester there which worked well; now use a Sigma PS II #1000. The Sigmas cut quickly and tend to dish fairly quickly too but not within 2 minutes - ouch.

IMO hardware-quality abrasive sheet on glass just makes work by dubbing the corners but if you're bent on doing it that way get some plain sheet and stick it to glass with spray-can craft glue applied to both glass and paper.

[johnredl]

I'm new to sharpening also. Ive just bought a 1000/6000/13000 shapton ceramics from Stu. They're great. They make the plane iron sharp enough to terrify my arm hairs into falling out before the iron cuts them. I don't think that they were 100% flat straight out of the box tho, but I was too impatient to flatten them!

I have experimented with DMT Diamond plates...don't bother, they're crap (my opinion) :)

Thanks Stu, but now u tell me that you have something better?

[Schtoo]

Thanks Stu, but now u tell me that you have something better?

I have something that, at the moment, appears like it might be a game changer, but as I said, it's a prototype, I have the only one in existence (didn't even have a box) and some changes might be made before it becomes commercially available. I hope not, because right now it's completely unique and a monster.

I actually had a reference stone for it to be made from, which itself was surprisingly good and worthy of consideration. The design brief for the new stone(s) was that they are of similar grit range, stay flat, under 1.5kg in weight (for shipping), cut quickly and if possible, don't need soaking.

Of the brief, the stone hits every mark dead centre. The only thing I can reasonably compare it to is an Atoma #400, and I think the stone is faster, and certainly more versatile since it's also tough and will last for a very, very long time.

But I need to send back my findings now, and see if the other stone can't be improved. Of the two stones, one is phenomenal, the other not quite so great. I may not be able to improve the other one (which should have been even better) but that'll not be any great loss.

Of the nearly 100 stones I have now for my own use, testing and experiment, it was the first I laughed at in astonishment. I can only hope that the production version will be the same, and that this one doesn't change with extended use.

And that's why I'm keeping as hush-hush as I can for the moment. But the thing is so amazing, it's difficult to keep too quiet about it.

Stu.

[johnredl]

How long do u think before its available Stu?

[Schtoo]

As soon as possible!

I'll be asking about the good one, and whether it'll be ready to sell today/tomorrow and what it should be called.

To give you an idea, I was only told they were being made 2 weeks ago, after asking about them 3 weeks ago. One week ago, I was told they were being made up, last Wednesday they were made and Friday I got them.

I've done only a handful of tools and knives on them, and that's not really enough to be certain, even though right now, I've got nothing else that even comes close to the lesser one, let alone the good one.

Making up one stone isn't such a big deal, but a production batch? Fortunately they're standard size so I can't forsee much of a problem but also know that I've got these one a 'regular deal' kind of thing, which means I need to share them with anyone else who sells Sigma Power. Good point is that I don't have to front up a big wad of cash to get them done, bad point is I have no control over the timing of them.

So we shall see. As soon as I know, I'll let you know.

Stu.

[Andreas87]

Sounds exiting Stu! I'd better wait and see what happens:)

rsser (http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/801-rsser/): I have experimented with DMT Diamond plates...don't bother, they're crap (my opinion):)

I totally agree! I only use it to flatten waterstones now...

Thanks for the replies!!!

[rsser]

Yes Andreas, I wouldn't buy another one. Have gone through a few with my chronic rehabbing disease and they were OK. The plus is they're low maintenance; minus is that they don't last that long and so end up being expensive.

[Pops]

Oh Stu,

You are such a tease. And now you have me saying to myself, 'I want some of those, must have them'.

So like Andreas87, I will be waiting. :)

Cheers
Pops

[Schtoo]

I am bugging Sigma Power, a lot.

Got told (again) not yet.

I think they're getting the idea that it might be something really good.

I've started to warm to the 'lesser' one as well. It's not staying as flat, but for those folks who like a stone to leave a good finish (knife folks mostly), it's excellent. Absolute consistency, which is rare in a stone like this. And it's fast, so it'll have a different focus, but still a very good stone.

As soon as I can pass them along, I'll get them out there. I promise.

Stu.

(Who's pretty happy with how today ended up. :) )

[Schtoo]

How long do u think before its available Stu?

Now?

You know where, and still no pics. Been burning the midnight oil a lot of late making up for a missing Sunday (busy meeting and greeting in Miki).

I can tell you that I've not yet tried the production version, the box is pink (bright pink!) and if what's inside matches the stones I used for testing, it's a game changer.

Now, I need to get back to work. Got orders and questions smeared all over the place, and they need to be put back in order ASAP.

Stu.

[rsser]

So is this it Stu?

Sigma Power ceramic stone #400. : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1679)

[Schtoo]

So is this it Stu?

Sigma Power ceramic stone #400. : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1679)

Yep, that's it.

A small phrase is forming about this stone.

"An iron fist in a velvet glove..."

Seriously, it's that good. Even makes diamond plates look a little pedestrian. That little bit of testing surprised even me.

Stu.

[rsser]

Sounds brilliant.

I placed a website order earlier with a qualification.

Would this stone be flattenable with a Tsuboman Atoma #400? Answer would seem to be yes ... ?

[Fuzzie]

Sooo... trying to get my head around the waterstone options again and considering the M2 plane blades really are due any day now and might be coming with chipped or fragile leading edges, would the Sigma #400 plus the #1000-6000 ceramic set (hard 1000 and Suehiro base) be a good starting point for a neophyte water stone user?

Also if you read this Stu, do you know typically how long the surface mail and SAL shipping options would take to get to Aus?

Thanks,
Franklin

[Schtoo]

Ern,

My really quite worn Atoma takes care of it fairly well, but there's no doubt the Atoma is working hard. It's not the abrasive so much as the binder, and in the Sigma it's pretty tough stuff. But it works, and that's all that matters. Judicious use will minimise dishing, and by eye you probably won't notice and dishing anyway.

(You need to be pretty abusive to really dish it.)

Fuzzie,

The #400 works with HSS, and not too badly at that. The Mujinfang blade I have is exceptionally hard, and the #400 just does it's thing like it's normal steel. It's labelled as a Select II, doesn't really meet the definition by my way of thinking but it's completely up to the job anyway.

I'd skip the Sigma Hard #1000 though if you're looking to really get stuck into HSS. Yes, it works but only if HSS is an occasional thing. For me, I have about 4 tools in HSS, compared to dozens in regular steels, so for me the ceramic stuff is ideal with 'occasional' HSS use.

The Select II are much better at dealing with HSS, but I'd also skip the #1000 SII and go with the 3F Carbon #700. The 3F just seems to hold up a lot better, works faster and stays flatter than the #1000. Heck, the Select II #1000 is a monster but the 3F is that same monster cranked up another few notches.

But if you're not using only HSS and have plenty of everything else that needs sharpening, then the ceramic (as in the set) will be ideal.

Just a matter of priorities, and I'd hate to see you end up with standard stones to work over a mountain of HSS. It'd be a lesson in frustration, guaranteed.


Those sets were intended for folks like yourself. Just click, wait and they show up. There's no fat in them, and there's no cheaped out crap. Just good quality stuff, all made to work together to make sharpening as painless as possible and no need to 'upgrade' later on down the track either. Wish they were available when I started buying stones, I would have bought one myself.

And yet, folks still over look them. Oh well.

Hope that helps,

Stu.

(Now, lets see how many #400 stones Sigma Power actually made in the first batch. Looks like I'm going to manage to zip them all out in under 3 weeks. :cool: )

[rsser]

do you know typically how long the surface mail and SAL shipping options would take to get to Aus?
...

[Fuzzie]

It's so hard working this all out. I've got probably a larger than usual selection of western gear. Lots of chisels and a largish number of planes and some machinery.

None of this gear really gets used very much.

Standard plane blades, I have a few, one with a Hock O1 blade . Then I've got a low angle jack with an A2 blade and now I'm about to receive 3 HSS blades. I probably don't need the HSS blades, I got into the batch order before I had a handle on the steel thing when I perhaps should have spent the $ on waterstones.

I've also got 6" machinery planer blades (HSS ?) that I try and touch up at the moment on wet and dry paper.

I probably spend more time trying to get my chisels right rather than my planes. So a set that does standard chisels and planes is probably the main requirement. Then the occassional touch up on A2 and HSS.

I might even consider reselling the new HSS blades rather than fighting too many sharpening systems.

[Schtoo]

Fuzzie,

The Sigma ceramic stones will be fine, so long as the HSS is put them in good shape and you don't ask them to start regrinding bevels and heaps of flattening and things like that. They're just not made for that kind of heavy work on HSS, but the occasional sharpening is fine, no trouble at all. Almost any good quality stone will do it, some are better than it that others.

Shipping? It's there on the site. SAL/Small packet is 2-3 weeks in the post, plus up to two weeks for me to get everything together. Usually I have stone set parts on hand, until I run the suppliers out, which is often. Waiting on trays to show up today.

Surface mail is 2-3 months.

Actual time? SAL takes 2-3 weeks, usually...

99% of stuff shows up in that time frame. Occasionally faster, rarely slower and I think I might actually have a missing parcel for the very first time.


Just a small little gripe on the whole thing of shipping...

I get asked about how much/how long more than anything else. I've spent hours of time and effort to make sure the shipping calculator works correctly and that the shipping times and conditions are as clear as possible in the calculator as well. I positively hate it when I have to ask about shipping, so much so that I won't ask, I'll go looking elsewhere. So I made sure mine was working, and if nothing else, that works perfectly.

I just wish more folks would actually use it... :(

(In the case of hidden shipping, I consider it an attitude of "you don't respect me enough/consider me important enough to be up front about the actual cost, so I won't respect you enough to give you my business".)


Stu.

[Fuzzie]

Sorry Stu, I should have read the shipping faq first. :educate: It is interesting reading.

I wasn't aware of the significant postage step at 4kg and the calculator for the 1000-6000 set plus the 400 came in at 4.59kg so that was what piqued my interest in the SAL option. I think Austpost used to offer SAL a long time ago but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere recently.

I do appreciate your order and post calculator and the easy with which it works and can be set for different currencies. I see the OZ$ has been taking a dive against Y lately as well.:C

[Schtoo]

Fuzzie,

No problem. You're not the first and won't be the last. I can only belly ache at it, nothing more...

The big jump is because it takes about an hour to plug in all the data points for the shipping module in the software, and the number of orders above 4kg is not that great.

Besides which, any excess gets refunded. ;)

Every currency has taken a dive of late, which is good if I'm buying but I'm not doing too much of that. Luckily I caught the OZ dollar at a peak when I changed over a bunch of them to yen.

What's really frustrating is trying to compete with pricing on some stuff, where you know the price you're up against is from 3-4 years ago. About 40% difference between then and now, and still I manage to do it. Somehow...

And no, I'm not making anything resembling a fortune out of this. If the dang yen would drop 30% and be where it should, things would be better. But if wishes were gold, we'd all be rich!

(Sorry for taking over this thread. Was not intentional!)

Stu.

[snafuspyramid]

Three questions

First: I'm confused. What role does the new stone actually play?

I'm realising that everybody seems to sharpen differently, but as far as I've come to understand it:

Primary bevel: powered grinder or, for masochists like myself, the #120 Sigma.

Sharpening/forming secondary bevel: 1000, 6000 grit waterstones

Honing: Strop, 10,0000 grit stone etc. etc.

In other words, I don't understand where a #400 grit stone fits in. I'm assuming it isn't used for the primary bevel - everyone seems to use a powered grinder for this. And I don't understand why you'd use such a course stone to form the secondary bevel - that takes less than a minute, even on the 1000 King I'm using.

Second: I'd be very interested to hear whether this stone might do as a replacement for the #120 Sigma. That stone cuts very fast, but clogs so quickly (and requires such frequent and messy dressing) that overall, it's a rather slow way of removing metal. I'm wondering whether this new, magical stone might not be an adequate replacement. I've asked Stu the same question about the new King Deluxe #300, but this new stone sounds much more interesting.

And finally; can I flatten this stone using SiC grit on glass? I don't own a diamond stone.

[rsser]

Eddie, hoping this post will leave Stu to get on with sending out mine and ordering others in! .... this is Stu's website description of the stone:

This whetstone was intended to be a 'bridge' stone between the coarse, aggressive Sigma Power ceramic #120 and Select II #240 stones.

Conceived during a conversation with the president of Sigma Power corporation, I asked for some specific criteria to be met, if possible. This stone should not dish during use to any great extent, yet be easy to flatten. It should strongly resist clogging and cut aggressively yet consistently. It should be capable of working with all blade steels up to and including the exotic stainless, high speed and powder metal steels being produced. And, if possible, a minimum of soaking time would be preferred as this is not an 'everyday' stone, only one that might be used occasionally and rapid set up time would be a bonus.

And it delivers on every point.

From the initial splash of water, it cuts rapidly. The closest analogy I can make is that it is similar to a new diamond plate of similar grit. The stone will begin to load, but cutting speed is not diminished, and a splash of water clears the loading easily. After use, the dishing is minimal, and is easily made flat again with a diamond plate of similar grit. It performs well with all steels, and isn't affected by the amount of steel on the stone, a small bevel or a wide area, the stone is just as effective.

However, this stone will not leave a smooth finish, it's job is to cut quickly and bridge the gap between lower grit stones and medium grit stones. At this task, it is without peer.

Re your last question, yes of course. Reliable and cheap.

And for reshaping bevels, in my book a bench grinder is the most efficient option. Recommend the Norton 3X wheel for hard steels (eg. Titan chisels). Try a coarse white or pink wheel for softer high carbon steels (eg. Bergs).

HTH.
.

[snafuspyramid]

I agree that a bench grinder would be more efficient. But, for the time being, I don't have the money (at least for a decent one) and I don't have anywhere to put it. Using stones is slow, but it's also quiet, clean, doesn't smell, is cheap, and takes no space. Plus, using the MKII I can get a perfect, straight and correctly angled bevel every time.

It's not really that time consuming when all I'm trying to do is narrow the secondary bevel a little bit. In fact, I highly recommend it.

But I'll admit that reshaping or rehabbing old blades is a much more daunting task - I've done about 20 with the Sigma, and I'm VERY glad to see the end of it at last! I doubt very much you'd want to try it with A2, either.

The only thing that really bothers me is the need to constantly flatten the damn stone. It's disruptive, messy and makes a horrible screeching noise. It really needs to be flattened almost as often as a King to keep the pores unclogged. I'd happily trade a bit of speed for a stone that I need to flatten, say, only every fifteen minutes. I'm hoping that the Sigma Wunderstein might fit the bill.

But anyway, I don't see why a "bridge" between the #120 stone and the medium stones is necessary. For that matter, what are stones below 800 grit actually used for, except setting primary bevels in lieu of grinding?

[rsser]

Yes, flattening coarse stones is a sod. Like you I hate it, and think of it as a necessary evil .. like a session at the dentist.

Why a bridge btwn Sigma #120 and Select II #240?

Well I'm not sure it's essential, as often for lapping I go from Shapton Pro #120 to that Sigma and it works OK.

But the heavy lifting is all down this end of the grit range, and when Stu says he's got a kind of wonder stone, I'm willing to give it a go. Will report back in due course.

Why these coarse stones you ask? Well chisel and plane backs have to be lapped and polished to produce a plane as well refined as the plane of the bevel. No point in just doing the bevel. K, with plane blades you can use the ruler trick which simplifies things; but not with chisels.

[snafuspyramid]

Ah yes, flattening chisels. That's another thing I'd like a new stone for; the Sigma isn't wide enough to be really useful (there is a wider one, apparently, but I haven't managed to winkle it out of Stu yet) and is a bit too course for flattening, while the King 1000 changes shape too quickly and takes far, far too long on the super-hard Titans.

So I'd consider buying the wunderstein just for flattening.

As for the primary bevels, I'm guessing the best way to compare it with the Sigma #120 for total speed - including the time spent flattening and dressing the thing - is to get it and try it for myself. Hope he's still got a few left...

[rsser]

Yeah, hope so.

It seems many folk ignore lapping chisel backs, and while it's a lot of work it's also a good test of your hand skills, patience and your gear.

That said, you only need to flatten the back once and to the depth you're usually chiselling to. And if you have to use a guide block, add that in as well.

K, the Titans are hard; see the thread on hand power v horse power. Life is too short for midgets to battle titans.

[Schtoo]

Eddie,

I swear you have so much grief out of that Sigma #120, I wonder if yours is defective somehow. I think I'll crack open a new one (again?!) and see if something's gone awry.

I've run out of un-flat backed tools here, they're all flat now, courtesy of that Sigma #400 more than anything else. Seems to really love having masses of metal against it.

What is the #400 for you ask?

Yes, it's a bridge between the very coarse and middle grit stones. A #120-240 grit stone tends to be quite nasty in what it leaves behind, finish wise. Yes, a good #1000 stone will take care of it, but even the really good stones in this grit range have to work on it, especially with harder, tougher steels. There's a chance that all the good work you did on a coarser stone will be undone somewhat.

So the intention was to have a stone that strongly resisted dishing, but was able to clean things up so that the medium stones don't have to work so hard, and the jump wasn't so large. For a time, I was using a King #300/400 which worked well enough, and ticked all the boxes. Stays flat, cleans up well, cheap and effective.

The Sigma #400 is like a King #400 (which is a good stone in it's own right) and cranked to, not 11, more like 17 or something.

There's nothing I own that will take something that's got a nasty finish on it, scratched up or slightly pitted, and fix it as quickly as the Sigma #400. Also seems to be able to grind a bevel pretty quickly too, which isn't what it was really meant to do, but it's an added bonus. And it stays flat in the bargain, which was what was really wanted, and it delivers.

As I've mentioned, it's not an everyday stone. Even if you're using your tools every day, you might only use this thing once a week/month. But when you do use it, it's to save aggravation and annoyance from using a coarse stone (and needing to clean up after it) or spending too much time on a medium (#1000) stone trying to work out small chips and stuffed edge geometry that happens when edges actually get used.

It's a stone that you pull down off the shelf, use it for a few minutes, and then put it back again. It's that quick to get using, it's that quick in use and that's what it's really for as a 'stone'.

For flattening, it's a god send. Instead of fooling around with diamond plates that are expensive (not too bad, and I'm working on that too!) and fragile, you can just get it out, go for it as hard and fast as you want and as long as you don't deliberately try to dish it, it'll flatten out anything you've got. There's something about the abrasive in it that's just not 'normal', it stays sharp and hooks into everything very well. Just an oddity for flattening. It was not planned, but it works exceptionally well at this task.

It's not a replacement for the #120, but a compliment to it. If anything, If I had to give up the #120 or #400, I'd lose the #120.

Yes, I'm probably biased because it is MY stone. I asked for it, I got it and I pushed it into production. If I were wired like normal people, I'd be busy telling everyone it's the be all/end all stone whether it was or not.

But the thing is, there was another #400 stone that was in the running. As it turns out, that one is a little darling as well, in a very different way and completely unlike what we've ended up with. I'll try and get that one out there as well, but you guys here should stay away from it. It's a knife sharpener's stone, not a toolies stone.

Initially, I use the 'other' stone, and was nonplussed. Not bad, but not great. Then after a day, I used this stone. It shocked me at how good it was and easy to use. I've got nearly 100 stones now, so if you've seen it chances are I have to but also likely own it and have used it enough to form a solid opinion on it.

Based on that alone, and I don't pull ANY punches when it comes to stones since there are no perfect stones I've ever used (they all have some warts), this one stands out as really not having anything bad about it, aside from it's regular price being a little higher than I'd like.

And that's all I can really say I suppose. It's a danged good stone and does what it supposed to effectively. It's not essential, but if you have the means it's worth having, even if you have a grinder/linisher/diamond plates. It's the stone you use to take the load off the finer grit stones, no matter what you used before.

That's all. Hope it's not too gushing and commercialised... :B


And Ern, your stone left last week. Thought I'd mentioned that. ;)

Stu.

[rsser]

Thanks Stu; looking forward to it.

[Mr Brush]

We're all looking forward to the Ern review.........being a published author does carry a bit of weight :D:rolleyes:

[rsser]

Erk.

Happy to provide impressions.

Blind controlled trials are not on the agenda :no:

(Though what I should've done is keep a notebook over the years of trying various methods. As Stu has said, it's not just the stone but the interaction of stone type with metal type and application. Lots of variables!).

[Jone5y]

It's a knife sharpener's stone, not a toolies stone.
Well lucky you mentioned that, I was about to pull the trigger on the magic 400 stone for that very purpose. Ooops.
What would you say is the equivalent of this stone that has caused so much excitement and anticipation for knife sharpening purposes? Does the new stone even have a non-tool equivalent?

[Schtoo]

Hi Jone5y,

I wouldn't say the Sigma #400 is going to be a bad knife stone, but it is, I think, a tad 'sharp' whereas the 'other' #400 (more for knives) is like butter. Beautifully smooth and consistent.

I'm not a knife junky by any means, but I can tell you my solid gyuto has a Sigma #400 finish on the sides, and it's the best I've ever had. Food just doesn't stick to it. But as I said, I'm no knife authority so whether it's really suitable I can't say.

But the 'other', wow. I can't sell it to you though, it's the only one in existence for the immediate future.

Perhaps a knife stone that has likely caused even more excitement is the Gesshin #400. I've not tried this stone at all, but the knife folks think it's something pretty special. Until I either get my hands on one of them or someone who has both says something to me, there's no way I could make any judgement call on a comparison.

The thing is, the Gesshin apparently leaves a nice finish, whereas the Sigma just cuts. On that score alone, where folks are looking for something they can use and not have to fiddle with afterwards as in the case on a knife, then the Gesshin is probably the better bet.

(Until I manage to coax the GC #400 out of Sigma. Then there might be fireworks, because it's just so smooth, yet still a proper #400 stone. Sounds odd I suppose, but it is what it is.)

The Sigma #400 is only at it's special price for a few more hours, and that special won't be extended. I've sent out so many of them at that price, it's actually starting to cost me money now in time spent for very little return...

Stu.

[rsser]

Re the Sigma, I promised first impressions.

But first to shipping times. Stu posted it on 26/11 and it arrived today, 2/12. Nice work SAL.

As to use, most of my time is spent rehabbing and in that lapping is the big time consumer.

With chisels, that means no cheats with back bevels and of necessity a flat back up to 30mm or so from the edge. That's so polishing on a finer stone can be done.

First try-out was a 1" Titan firmer; it'd been lapped but pitting had occurred since without my permission :rolleyes: The Titans are pretty hard steel and the Sigma #400 dealt with it in about 30 seconds.

So time to get serious.

Second try-out was an old Broford (sp?) of Plymouth 3/4" firmer that'd also been through a lapping process. The corners had been dubbed over by Messrs Wet and Dry (beknighted?). It's also hard steel. About 5 mins of work revealed good progress but a heavier gun was needed to speed things up so I stepped down to a #120 Shapton, and then returned to the Sigma. Another 15 mins or so and it was done.

On the basis of this limited test, the Sigma appears to cut consistently and well; it's slow to load up; it's not that fussy about water.

Downside, barely, is that it needed flattening for any further lapping work; a by-product of just working the 25-30mm from the edge of the chisels. Also because there's a bit of clogging.

But in short, it's a keeper.

[Schtoo]

:)

No news to me, but it's always good to know I'm not seeing through rose tinted glasses.

Thanks Ern, means a heck of a lot.

Stu.

[snafuspyramid]

I also got my hands on the new stone for an hour today.

Doesn't arrive very flat; the whole thing was bent like a banana, albeit very slightly.

A bit of work with SiC grit on glass fixed that problem. It's slow work to flatten, but also dishes slowly - the very opposite of my Kings.

Got started on an iron for an old US no.8 jointer, and was pleasantly surprised by the cutting speed - even with almost no pressure the steel just seems to happily float away. Not as fast as the Sigma 120, unsurprisingly, but altogether more... effortless, for want of a better word. Plus, leaves a remarkably fine finish. Very curious.

What pleased me most is that, after the stone loads up, a small squeeze of water and it's back to normal! No glazing and barely any clogging. Quite a wonderful experience after the accursed / beloved 120.

Went out of flat a little quicker than anticipated, but it's too early for me to properly judge the matter.

I'll leave a proper review to someone with far more experience with sharpening stones than I; I dont have enough experience with similar stones to contribute anything useful.

Still, at this stage, I'll say that I'm very impressed with this stone. It's great for flattening backs, and also for the occasional secondary bevels where my 1000 King struggles on its own, such as with the bigger Titans and a Hock O2 jointer iron.

Look forward to hearing more about what you guys think of it.

[rsser]

Yeah, mine was slightly bowed, and not quite flat across: a bit of drop-off at the edges.

Not been a prob. with lapping chisels so far.

This morning groeneaj and I had a session rehabbing a sorry looking firmer as his lesson test mule. Got some proper clogging: due either to the softer steel of the mule or my not paying enough attention to water control, or both.

So by now flattening was needed. An Atoma #400 diamond plate from Stu was laid in for this and it took a bit of time but did the job. And you'd expect this since the rated grits matched. The Atoma goes across finer grit stones like a cheese grater across young cheddar.

[Robson Valley]

For all of my wood carving tools, I rarely ever have to use a 1k water stone.
If I need a stone at all, 4K is fine. Regular stropping (every 20-30 minutes) does the job.

Just got a KING 4k for Christmas. This is the secret grit size in the Porche recommended stone for the 301 kitchen knives. The secret edge bevel is 20 degrees, total.

However: if and when I hit a sand grain with a $70 gouge, I have had to joint the entire edge with a 600 oil stone. If there was any more profanity, I would not need oil on the stone. Then 1K then 4K then stropping.

Repairing waterstones:
In the past month, I've wrecked a 4k water slip stone and grooved a big 1k waterstone.
Clamp a BIG mill file to the bench. I have a few from a junk sale at the autowrecker's, maybe 4cm wide and 40cm long. Gently work the water stones on that. As soft as they are, the waterstones true up just fine for my needs.

I ran the 4k slip over a tool edge so hard that the edge of the stone started to crumble away like dry toast. Once again, worked gently on the mill file, good as new! It was wrecked anyway so thought I might as well fool with it.