Is anyone in Australia making panel saws? [Archive]

waveink

19th October 2011, 03:44 PM

I have been slowly replacing my Bunnings-grade hand tools with craftsman made/grade tools. I have a couple of HNT Gordon planes and a spokeshave, I have a Colen Clenton square and have a trio of mortise chisels on order from Trent at Harold & Saxon (been waiting for them since February :~). Looking for hand saws, though I can't find anything made in Australia. I see some beautiful items on Mike Wenzloff's site and Bad Axe tools get a great rap from The Schwarz - but nothing this side of the Pacific? In the last year I have picked up a LN tenon saw and a LV dovetail saw and like them very much, but now I want to complete my set with both a couple of panel size rip (7tpi) and crosscut (12tpi) saws. I don't want to buy something like that without feeling the grip and the balance in my hands, so I'm unlikely to order from the US - even though they seem to be excellent tools. Does anyone know of local saw makers of the quality of Colen and Terry who make panel saws for sale? If not, does anyone have any experience with the LN panel saws?

kiwioutdoors

19th October 2011, 04:56 PM

You might be waiting a while for those chisels. I think one forum member waited over 18 months but apparently they are worth the wait :cool:

Scribbly Gum

19th October 2011, 05:05 PM

Apart from some of our fellow forumites I don't know of anyone in Australia making panel saws.
Good panel saws come along second hand every now and then. They usually sell cheaply and are from recognised saw makers.
Disston, Spear & Jackson, Atkins, Simonds, Keen Kutter, Tyzack, Sandvik etc all pop up on auction sites.
These usually go quite cheaply, as hand saws are really the poor cousins as far as popularity goes at auctions - unless they are super rare or super minty.
Here is one:
KeenKutter No.88 24" 12ppi Panel Saw GOOD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KeenKutter-No-88-24-12ppi-Panel-Saw-GOOD-/150550938382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230d89030e)

This is rare, in that the price is cheap and it is from the US where they seem to value their old handsaws more than we do over here.

Here is a nice Spear and Jackson 10Pt saw that just sold on Ebay.

And here are a couple of my old faithfuls that I love using.

I haven't really answered your questions but I hope I have given you a few more things to think about.
Cheers
SG:2tsup:

waveink

19th October 2011, 06:49 PM

You might be waiting a while for those chisels. I think one forum member waited over 18 months but apparently they are worth the wait :cool:

Yup! When I ordered them and paid my 50% deposit to Trent at the hand tool expo in February he said there would be a 6 - 12 week wait. I had heard the reputation for his fine workmanship, but not his reputation for delayed delivery ... 8 months and counting.

waveink

19th October 2011, 06:53 PM

Apart from some of our fellow forumites I don't know of anyone in Australia making panel saws.
Good panel saws come along second hand every now and then. They usually sell cheaply and are from recognised saw makers.
Disston, Spear & Jackson, Atkins, Simonds, Keen Kutter, Tyzack, Sandvik etc all pop up on auction sites.
These usually go quite cheaply, as hand saws are really the poor cousins as far as popularity goes at auctions - unless they are super rare or super minty.

This is rare, in that the price is cheap and it is from the US where they seem to value their old handsaws more than we do over here.

Here is a nice Spear and Jackson 10Pt saw that just sold on Ebay.

And here are a couple of my old faithfuls that I love using.

I haven't really answered your questions but I hope I have given you a few more things to think about.
Cheers
SG:2tsup:

Thanks SG - it was a good answer, if not the one I hoped for. I have very large hands (all jokes aside) and really want to get a grip on the saws before committing - though if the price is significantly reduced as these ones seem to be, maybe it's worth a punt?! I have heard that old craftsmanship - especially in tool making - is better, and have generally found it to be true. Have also seen some pretty crappy old saws on guys walls and benches too!

Scribbly Gum

19th October 2011, 07:02 PM

I have very large hands (all jokes aside) and really want to get a grip on the saws before committing - though if the price is significantly reduced as these ones seem to be, maybe it's worth a punt?!

If you are used to using the plastic handled tradesmen's saws, then you will find that you can usually get a four fingered grip - the handles are designed for it. Older saws and the modern professional sawmakers' saws, are all designed for a three finger grip with the forefinger extended down the side of the handle. This is the way they are meant to be used. When you pick up an older or classical shaped saw handle, don't panic if you can't get four fingers into the hand grip.
It isn't the fact that you have big hands (although in your case I'm not sure), it is simply the design.
Cheers
SG

waveink

19th October 2011, 07:12 PM

If you are used to using the plastic handled tradesmen's saws, then you will find that you can usually get a four fingered grip - the handles are designed for it. Older saws and the modern professional sawmakers' saws, are all designed for a three finger grip with the forefinger extended down the side of the handle. This is the way they are meant to be used. When you pick up an older or classical shaped saw handle, don't panic if you can't get four fingers into the hand grip.
It isn't the fact that you have big hands (although in your case I'm not sure), it is simply the design.
Cheers
SG

I'm actually looking forward to that part - to holding it 'properly' so to speak with a three fingered grip. I'm more concerned about the thickness of the grip in my hand as I already have a hard time gripping screwdriver handles and the like if they're too small in diameter. I also don't want the bottom horn to dig into the heel of my hand - don't know if that's a legitimate concern, but am just imagining all the variations possible in shape and design.

groeneaj

19th October 2011, 07:12 PM

Yup! When I ordered them and paid my 50% deposit to Trent at the hand tool expo in February he said there would be a 6 - 12 week wait. I had heard the reputation for his fine workmanship, but not his reputation for delayed delivery ... 8 months and counting.

I ordered in January and was told 5 weeks. I cancelled my order a few weeks ago.

I hope to one day still own a set.

Andy

waveink

19th October 2011, 08:21 PM

I ordered in January and was told 5 weeks. I cancelled my order a few weeks ago.

I hope to one day still own a set.

Andy

Have considered doing the same many times, but figure I'm this far in I might as well hang in there - they have to come eventually, right?! Maybe Christmas!?

RayG

19th October 2011, 08:33 PM

Hi waveink,

As Mr Scribble has already suggested, your best bet is to trawl the swap meets, and ebay looking for a fixer-upper, I'd suggest you try and avoid anything made later than WW2, older Disston's, Atkins, Spear and Jackson are a good start.

If you don't want to invest the time in restoration, I'd get in touch with someone like Daryl Weir, he is on woodnet, and if you tell him what you are after, I'm sure he will find a good one.

Failing that, I'd go with Mike Wenzloff, you won't be dissapointed. here you go.. http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/component/virtuemart/henry-disston/30-panel-saws/panel-saw-cross-cut.html

Regards
Ray

wsal

19th October 2011, 10:13 PM

I'd also suggest checking out any local antique stores/restorer's barn type places. I've picked up a few old saws, chisels etc. that way. Not necessarily as cheap as ebay, but it means you can hold them, check that the blade's straight etc.

IanW

20th October 2011, 08:36 AM

At least one of the reasons I have never contemplated making a panel saw is the difficulty of accuraately taper-grinding the blade. This is one of the features that makes the old saws so good to use.

Another reason is that there is no need. As Scribbly & others have pointed out, there are still many fine old saws for sale at sensible prices, so if you keep a sharp lookout in the right places, you have a better than even chance of netting a good old pre-WWII saw for a pittance.

I understand your concerns about the handles, but its not all that difficult to make a new handle. The first one may not be the best, but it will teach you the principles, & #2 o r#3 could be just right! There is a very long tradition of craftsmen making & modifying their tools, so don't feel you are violating an old tool by changing its woodwork a little...... :;

Cheers,

Heavansabove

20th October 2011, 08:59 AM

Hi Wavelink

On hand size, if you are ok with the LN backsaws, then a vintage panel saw should not be a problem. I have some 1950s saws with huge handles that I find unusable; my hands are 4" across at the bottom of the fingers.

A suggestion - The Traditional Tools Group (TTTG) runs Saw Sharpening workshops in Sydney (at Asquith), there will be one in the first half of 2012. Go to The Traditional Tools Group (Inc.) -- Coming Events (http://www.tttg.org.au/php/tttg_Page.php?n=04) for info. The 2012 Program is not up yet, but will be there soon.

At a workshop there will be saws for sale. In addition you learn how to maintain your saws, as well as restore old ones. Generally the saws for sale are not top of line, but with notice I am sure we can have some better ones to try.

Virgil posts here and can give you a participants view on the workshops.

A further suggestion - whilst panel saws are nice, I like and use them a lot, 26" xcut and rip saws (also 28" rip if you have longer arms) are very useful - and they will enhance your arsenal. And with buying vintage saws you will be able to affor more than 2.

Sunday 11 March 2012, TTTG will have the next Tool Sale - there will be saws at this, typically of all quality levels.

If you do have really big hands, the 1950s-1960s Sandvick saws with plastic (yes I know) handles are excellent. The steel is first class, and harder than US saws. Tough on files, but great saws if you can find them. With any saw you can of course make your own handles - plenty of guidance on the Web.

Cheers
Peter Evans

waveink

20th October 2011, 10:26 AM

Thanks guys. Looks like I'll be searching out some good vintage saws for the next little while - and if nothing turns up soon will definitely be at the TTTG sale in March. I hadn't thought that making a handle would be feasible, but trolling the net does give enough guidance that I'll probably give this a try if I can source a decent blade or two. I'll let you know if anything eventuates.

Virgil

20th October 2011, 01:17 PM

Yes Mr Evans I do post here and I am more than happy to give a participants view of said workshop. Grand fun. I went to my third or fourth one recently and came home a very happy boy. I learn something new every time. Have done a lot of rust removal, teeth filing, setting and can confidently say that I can sharpen a saw. I'm no expert but I can get an old saw to make saw dust again. As Peter says there are usually old saws to be had at very reasonable prices too.

If you're in Sydney I strongly recommend attending one of these workshops (in fact, any of the workshops TTTG runs) and it wouldn't hurt to sign up and become a member too.

Cheers,
Virg.

PS Peter, I might see you on Sunday at the next workshop.

PPS Waveink, I'll see you at the next saw sharpening workshop!

Scribbly Gum

21st October 2011, 04:22 PM

Here's one that could be worth a closer look and some questions asked about:
VINTAGE 6 TPI SLACK SELLERS SAW 660mm Long | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-6-TPI-SLACK-SELLERS-SAW-660mm-Long-/260875327836?pt=AU_ToolsHardwareLocks&hash=item3cbd61995c)

Things like:
Is the blade straight
Any pitting on the blade
Any teeth missing
Any cracks in the handle
etc

At 6TPI it is hardly a panel saw but if it comes cheap and is in good nick then re-toothing is a cheap option.
Cheers
SG

waveink

21st October 2011, 04:45 PM

jimbur

21st October 2011, 04:48 PM

I picked up a nice spear and jackson one for two dollars at an op shop. The bloke in charge warned me that it might need sharpening!
Cheers,
Jim

waveink

21st October 2011, 05:44 PM

andrewr79

22nd October 2011, 09:43 PM

So if I do manage to pick up one of these older saws, I can guess I'll need to sharpen and set the teeth - but what other procedures/products do you use to clean up the blade, assuming there's no (or minor) rust pitting? Is it just a fine grade abrasive paper or sanding block, or is there a chemical agent as well? Fixing or replacing the handles is basic woodwork, so shouldn't pose too many problems - but are there tools to remove the nuts/screws/bolts holding the handles on or are basic tools sufficient?

Yes and Yes - and restoring is quite simple - check my blog for a few I've done. I also have about three Disston panel saws in the garage right now I'm restoring so PM me if interested in buying one of those, I think they might end up quite decent saws.

Cheers
Andrew

waveink

23rd October 2011, 01:23 AM

Yes and Yes - and restoring is quite simple - check my blog for a few I've done. I also have about three Disston panel saws in the garage right now I'm restoring so PM me if interested in buying one of those, I think they might end up quite decent saws.

Cheers
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

yes, I'd love to check out your blog - can you give me a link? As for the panel saws you're working on, what are they? Rip or crosscut and what tpi? And yes, I'd be interested.

andrewr79

23rd October 2011, 09:55 AM

Blog is Andrew's Woodwork Blog | A beginner's journey into woodwork (http://andrewswoodworkblog.wordpress.com/), click on the restoring tools link on the right and you should see the saws.

I'll go down later and see what's there, as far as I know panel saws were only ever made as crosscut (someone correct me?) and I'll do a TPI count. PM me your email address andI'll send you a few pics.

andrewr79

23rd October 2011, 04:21 PM

The search for a saw for waveink combined with a bit of recent soul searching about trying to be a woodworker rather than a tool (or is that rust) collector resulted in the following pile of saws that will be looking for new homes in the coming weeks.

I kept the ones in the second picture, plus a couple of hacksaws.

Woodink, There's about 4 panel saws in there, maybe 5. Let me know what you are interested in looking at more closely and those will get seperate pics sent through email.

waveink

23rd October 2011, 09:17 PM

The wooden handles one on the pegboard - is it a known brand name? It looks good - what's it's length and tpi? I'm looking for one at about 7 tpi and another at about 12 - aiming for around 21-23 inches in blade length and hopefully a good name like Disston, Peace, Kenyon, or something out of Sheffield.

thanks for digging these out Andrew

pete

andrewr79

23rd October 2011, 10:12 PM

The ones on the pegboard are my keepers sorry, they were just there to show you what you'd made me trim down to, plus to show you what they looked like after restore. The brown one I'm actually not sure of brand anyway, but it's a fine saw regardless, a 6TPI crosscut.

The ones in the pile should all be Disston I think, and they are all in similar condition to the brown one before I restored it. I think the one 5th from left (including blades) should come up nice for you if you like the look of it. I'm not positive which maker it is, but the blade and handle are sound and the steel good.

If you can wait until the weekend I'll give the rest of the panel saws a cleanup, email you close up pics and let you decide then. Much easier to choose when you can see what they look like after rather than before!