Chinese quality versus Swiss quality

[RayG]

Hi All,

Here's a good read on the detailed differences in quality between a chinese made DTI and a swiss made one.

As the guy says in the article, you get what you pay for...

Swiss Quality Discount (http://www.swissqualitydiscount.com/articles_benchmark_swiss_chinese_dial.php?osCsid=9e92a768f838f0f9c1374985c38390b8)

Thanks to Phil for the link to that site. :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[Optimark]

Makes interesting reading, sort of shows us what we more or less know, but cannot quantify.

Thanks for the link.

Mick.

[Michael G]

Not sure about that review. As the reviewer sells one of the items there is definitely potential for bias. Looking at the photos present I suspect that the Shars unit has a die cast body - which if you have the volume is a perfectly legitimate way of making parts. At one stage comparison is made between the close fit of the dial on the Shars unit to the looser fit of the Swiss unit. I'm sure if the fits were the other way round it would be the "sloppy tolerances" versus the "precision fit"
The one thing that is not mentioned in the review is the accuracy of the indicators. It's probably safe to assume that (at least in a new condition) they are comparable.
Having said all that, I'd probably opt for the more expensive because I like to buy tools for durability in the long term.
As was said at the top of the review and we all need to remember there is good Chinese stuff out there. I have a 4x6" bandsaw that I bought from Ozmestore which I think is top notch - the only thing that lets it down are the blades, and that's because I TIG weld them together myself. I must put a twist in them or something, but I'm getting better at it.

Michael

[Pete F]

Michael, if you have time, would you be interested in starting a new thread and documenting how you TIG weld the blades together? I've had a play with doing it, but haven't had a lot of success. I understand it helps to anneal the body of the blade after welding to reduce the brittleness and tendency to snap, but just the same I can't claim to have much success with either TIGing or silver soldering them.

Pete

[PDW]

Michael, if you have time, would you be interested in starting a new thread and documenting how you TIG weld the blades together? I've had a play with doing it, but haven't had a lot of success. I understand it helps to anneal the body of the blade after welding to reduce the brittleness and tendency to snap, but just the same I can't claim to have much success with either TIGing or silver soldering them.

Pete

I've got a blade welder on my big bandsaw and you definitely need to anneal the weld when finished. Hitting the weld button a few times seems to work.

The devil is in knowing just how *many* times to hit the button and for how long.

It's easier to buy the blades made to length from a shop with all the gear IMO. I've given up welding my own.

PDW

[Machtool]

Sorry Ray.

I’m going to Highjack your thread. This seems as good a title as I would have used any way.

Jayson from Horsham, sent me a P.M asking about what I thought about those Swiss levels, verses the MX ones. I’m dragging the discussion out here in the open, so we can all kick it around.

This is this Swiss Tesa / Wyler level that I stumbled on. Screaming good price at $198 USD plus $29 USD freight. $227 USD, lets call that $218 Aus dollars today. You could buy one of those here from the Australian agent. http://www.acmlab.com.au/products/ (http://www.acmlab.com.au/products/) , but you wouldn’t get change out of $1200 bucks.

http://www.swissqualitydiscount.com/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=41&osCsid=9e92a768f838f0f9c1374985c38390b8 (http://www.swissqualitydiscount.com/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=41&osCsid=9e92a768f838f0f9c1374985c38390b8)

Here’s the closest thing I could find in MX brand. $185.90 plus $12 freight to Horsham. $197.90

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Q205#tabs (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Q205#tabs)

Now those levels aren’t the same. The Swiss one is 0.04/m. The MX is 0.02/m The Swiss one is 150mm long, the MX one is 200mm long. Quality, well the Swiss one is Swiss. The MX one is?

I’m looking at the features of the MX one, how does this work?



· Accuracy higher than DIN877
· Flatness of the base less than 0.005mm
It has a resolution of 0.02 per metre, so being 200 long, or a 1/5th of a meter, it only takes a change of inclination of 4 microns, under the foot of the 200mm long level to change 1 division. How’s that work if the base is only flat to 5? Something we demonstrated on Stuarts level.

Anyway, Jayson wants to know what he should do. Please discuss. He also needs a 0.01 dial test indicator. I’ll get onto that next.

Phil.

[Stustoys]

Hi,


how does this work?
Well we know the answer to that one. lol We really should have taken some "before" pictures.

Phil bring up something I have been meaning to say in this thread. I dont really care about quality as long as it is reflected in the price. If I buy a DTI from China for $30(it came with a stand which is what I was after) and well lets be nice and say "its not the best" I'm fine with that. If I buy a COMPAC 245A DTI for $100 and its great I'm fine with that also. When I pay $185 for a level that turns out to be, again being nice "not the best", then I'm not happy!

Starting to sound like a "we are being ripped off buying from Australia" post. I wonder what a COMPAC 245A DTI would cost locally?

As far as what Jayson should do? Maybe buy a $50 Shars level and take it around to Phils place :p. Though if I had my time again and knew I could get a good one for $200 I'd go with that.

Stuart

[.RC.]

Sorry Ray.



Here’s the closest thing I could find in MX brand. $185.90 plus $12 freight to Horsham. $197.90

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Q205#tabs (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Q205#tabs)



well $158 + postage at the moment (I wonder if they changed the price since this thread started).. So $170 versus $228 for the Tesa

Nearly $60 difference...

I suppose the first question is..... What is the level to be used for... Measuring wear or just machine levelling...

If it is levelling then the actual accuracy of the vial become less important as your aim is to get the bubble in the same spot all along the way you are measuring...

If you are measuring wear then the accuracy of the vial become very important.. You want a vial that is ground uniformly as you are relying on the bubble movement for you to calculate the rise/run and to plot the wear on a graph for when you are doing your machine inspection...

Another point is resale value..... The measuremax will probably retain a lot of it's value... The Wyler with a more obscure name (in hobbyist circles) would probably have less willing buyers...

Along with the Wyler being 6" long sort of means you will need some ground parallels to rest it on when in use... Not an issue sometimes, other times it can be..

I do not think there is a straight out correct answer to the question...

[Pete F]

It has a resolution of 0.02 per metre, so being 200 long, or a 1/5th of a meter, it only takes a change of inclination of 4 microns, under the foot of the 200mm long level to change 1 division. How’s that work if the base is only flat to 5? Something we demonstrated on Stuarts level.[/FONT]


That's a screaming good price Phil, if I didn't already have a precision level I'd be all over that like a fat kid on a smartie!

Since you invited discussion on the topic, regarding the accuracy of the Chinese level, I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment and wonder if they can indeed claim that accuracy (which is really in how the the vial is ground), without the base necessarily being especially flat, as the 2 are really quite different criteria. By that I mean, take it to the extreme and pretend the base of the level wasn't flat at all, but instead 3 points. Place the "level" with 3 points on a "flat" surface like a surface plate and tilt that surface by the amount you mentioned and the level will indeed move the appropriate 1 division. Of course in real life use if the base isn't level and it's used on a surface that isn't "flat" then the thing is never going to repeat properly and its accuracy won't be worth 2 squirts until the base is made flat.

That's my take on it anyway. Grinding the vials to this level of precision is no mean feat and I've often wondered about the linearity of my level. It would be quite straight forward to check it, but since I use mine more for relative comparison rather than absolute measurement per se, I've never really felt the need to check it beyond reversing it.

On a more general theme, I think the main thing with Swiss v Chinese is that I pretty much feel that I can trust the Swiss straight out of the box. If the QA card says that's it accuracy, then I fully expect that is indeed the accuracy. Personally I don't think the test cards sent out with Chinese tools are worth the paper they're printed on and I would never blindly trust what they say without confirming it for myself, and with some tools that's very difficult for us to do in a home shop.

Pete

[Dave J]

Thanks for the link Ray. :2tsup:
I agree with Stuart about comparing a $30 Chinese one against the Swiss one.
As for the 0.02 CTC levels I checked mine on top of a strait edge and after leveling it I put a .02 shim at a meter, and it moved one graduation, so they are true in that sense.
As for the base I flatness I have not checked it, but wouldn't be surprised if it's out a bit.


Dave

[Stustoys]

I can confirm the vial appears to be pretty good on my level*. Here is a picture of my level on parallels 130mm apart from outside to inside edges. Alum foil is 0.015mm as best I can measure.
1000/130=7.6923
7.6923x0.015=0.1154
0.1154/0.02=5.77 divisions

Top foil under left side.
Middle no foil.
Right foil under right side.

Stuart


*the biggest problem I have with Chinese stuff is one can be great, the next can be rubbish. I bought a vernier for the tailstock DRO and its pretty good for the money, I bought another from the same guy and it curves about 5mm along its length lol seems to work ok

[Machtool]

well $158 + postage at the moment (I wonder if they changed the price since this thread started)..
I had that page open when I made my post it was $185.90, just a few hours ago. Freaky.

[Pete F]

I was going to check mine precisely the way Dave checked his as I think that would be a very accurate way of checking it, especially if it's rotated end for end. However I would be interested in not only checking the first division, but inserting multiple shims of the appropriate thickness (most lively feeler gauges) under the end of the level and checking each division was linear. I don't know, but I have a gut feeling it won't be linear. Of course if should be, but I don't know ... just a gut feeling it won't be. I really must try it to satisfy my curiosity.

Stuart, I agree, buying Chinese is a real crap-shoot. The problem is their QC is basically zero, so one person can get something that's fine, the next one will be rubbish. I treat them all like a kit and so long as I've paid the appropriate amount of money then that's fine. Mind you there's some things I don't go cheap with; drills, taps, and measurement tools. My "go to" DTI is a Compac. I'd like another so if anyone sees one on ebay cheap don't buy it ... you will hate them :wink:

Pete

[welder]

while we are talking levels has anyone ever heard of the brand EDA made in France.

[RayG]

Anyway, Jayson wants to know what he should do. Please discuss.
Phil.

No contest, the Tesa is a steal at that price. Still cheap at twice that price. (EDIT: the assumption is of course that the application requires the additional level (pun) of quality..)

I won't dare mention my el-cheapo Chinese Shars in the same sentence as Tesa... :)

As far as DTI's go, I have a Dorsey, which is too sensitive for 90% of what I need to do, and the 0.01 DTI's I've got, while they are branded Mitutoyo, I suspect they are fakes...

I'm thinking of this one Swiss Quality Discount (http://www.swissqualitydiscount.com/product_info.php?cPath=4_14&products_id=35&osCsid=9e92a768f838f0f9c1374985c38390b8)

With that nice little Etalon mag base...

Regards
Ray

PS.. Of course we could always get .RC to buy them for us, he seems to have the knack :)

[Pete F]

As far as DTI's go, I have a Dorsey, which is too sensitive for 90% of what I need to do, and the 0.01 DTI's I've got, while they are branded Mitutoyo, I suspect they are fakes...

Ray what makes you suspect that? As I'm up in Asia a lot I like to know what to look out for as counterfeits are are real problem up here. I have certainly come across some "Presto" branded drill bits that were clearly fakes and I was surprised as I didn't think the market would be large enough to bother copying them. I guess for a a Chinese drill manufacturer there's basically little/no extra cost in making them look like another brand. Certainly something to be aware of for those buying from Asia.

Pete

[RayG]

Ray what makes you suspect that?

Pete

Hi Pete,

The thing that tipped me off was the dial diameter is 32mm versus 40mm for the original, but there are other things like the yellow colour is different and so on.. there's a summary on the Mitutoyo Web site of what to look for.

As always it's buyer beware...

Regards
Ray

Ok , Here's a PDF of the differences between the real thing and the fakes..

[Stustoys]

Hi

MITUTOYO with base for about $32?

Dial Test Indicator 0-40-0 With Magnetic Base New -US | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dial-Test-Indicator-0-40-0-Magnetic-Base-New-US-/280764067073?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415ed7ad01)

Though it does look better than the shars one.

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Mitutoyo with base for $32, yep it's a fake... wrong box, the real one doesn't have foam packing. :rolleyes:

Regards
Ray

[Jayson]

Thanks Phil for bringing this up here and thanks to all that have answered.

I think I will go with the Tesa level and the INTERAPID 0.01mm DTI.

These are mainly for rebuilding / setting up my Beaver mill at the moment but I'm sure they will come in handy for other things.

Jayson.

[Dave J]

I bought one of those a few years back as well, but it was not advertised as Mitutoyo. When it turned up and I saw the name I knew it was a fake, then not long after someone put up a link to the Mitutoyo site which confirmed it.
It's a good general purpose one as I only us it to compare readings not measuring.
For any precision work I use a Best test or Girod test indicate.

Dave

[Stustoys]

Yeah I know its fake I have one. Was just an example.
They missed one of the differences. The front mount is on a angle to the face on the real one, parallel on the the fake. It does work surprisingly well. I have some staretts and a girod-tast 0.0001" for when I'm going a little stupid.

Of course when the one I use all the time breaks I'll blame cheap rubbish when the good ones have spent most of there lives in their boxes.

Stuart

p.s. I meant to add, I've seen a lot of Mitutoyo stuff from Indian sellers lately at more like Mitutoyo prices, how do you know?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/280723276809

[Bryan]

I don't get why the flatness of a level's base is such an issue. I would think as long as it's stable it should work fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the tolerance says 'flat to minus something in the middle', even on the good ones. It's not like you're going to have one end hanging off a surface, right? Phil?

[Pete F]

I don't get why the flatness of a level's base is such an issue. I would think as long as it's stable it should work fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the tolerance says 'flat to minus something in the middle', even on the good ones. It's not like you're going to have one end hanging off a surface, right? Phil?

Bryan, Phil is of course the person to answer this, however can I suggest that if the level isn't flat and the surface you're measuring also isn't flat, then the highs and lows of each surface may coincide to give incorrect readings. eg a "high" on the end of the level may coincide with a high point on the surface and cause that end to then be high. Alternatively that point may happen to fall down into a lower point on which you're measuring. While the overall plane of what you're measuring hasn't changed, the very same end is now reading low. The difference in distance between the two many not be very much, hence why I suggested that the level wouldn't repeat accurately.

That's my take on it anyway.

Pete

[.RC.]

I don't get why the flatness of a level's base is such an issue. I would think as long as it's stable it should work fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the tolerance says 'flat to minus something in the middle', even on the good ones. It's not like you're going to have one end hanging off a surface, right? Phil?

I think it is mainly because a minute amount of movement can make a big difference in where the bubble finally rests...

With all measurement once you get into the small sizes you must have consistency...

To give an example of the sizes we are talking about....

My Starrett #199 is 0.0005" per foot per graduation...And the graduations on the starrett are 1/10" apart so I can fairly easily discern each graduation into quarters..

I recently had it on my TC grinder ways, the ways were six inches apart... That measn the level was now reading 0.00025" per six inches per graduation.... Break that down into a quarter division and we are talking really tiny amounts 62.5 millionths of an inch.... That must be somewhere around one and a half microns....A stupendiously small amount and impossible to reliably measure in my shed at least, but the level is capable of discerning that amount... In fact IMO it would drive you up the wall trying...

Remember what Marko said about what five microns was...

[Bryan]

Ok. I'm trying to think of an example where I've seen a precision level NOT used on a parallel or similar. I guess it does happen, but not usually I think? Anyway, it's no biggie to scrape it in, right? :D But if I paid good money for a Tesa etc I wouldn't really want to.

[.RC.]

Ok. I'm trying to think of an example where I've seen a precision level NOT used on a parallel or similar. I guess it does happen, but not usually I think? Anyway, it's no biggie to scrape it in, right? :D But if I paid good money for a Tesa etc I wouldn't really want to.

If I use my levels on parallels, I will try as hard as possible to keep the setup the same, only moving the pieces touching whatever I am measuring.... And it is bloody hard.... I have taken five readings and gotten five different results, from lack of care in moving the setup...

This is the beauty of Marko's roller bar levelling system or the King Way alignment tool, less parts to move around = more consistency..

[RayG]

Hi .RC,

Agree on the difficulty of accurate measurements in this sort of range, (you know all this already, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it). When you get into the micron range, the curvature of the earth becomes a factor, not to mention steel expands at 13 microns per meter per degree... a 1 degree change in temperature due to drafts or passing clouds and wham your're out by 13 microns...

I tried to remember the correction for the curvature of the earth, and have a figure of 2.5 microns per meter in mind, (I think it was in Connelly) that is two levels set exactly level 1 meter apart will deviate from a straight line by 2.5 microns... because of the curvature of the earth... I think that's right.. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, it just illustrates another way of how small 5 microns actually is, although Marko's explanation is better... :)

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

p.s. I meant to add, I've seen a lot of Mitutoyo stuff from Indian sellers lately at more like Mitutoyo prices, how do you know?
MITUTOYO DIAL TEST INDICATOR - BRAND NEW PRECISION DIAL | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/280723276809)


Hi Stuart, My fake Mitutoyo's DTI's work fine, probably not as good as the real thing, at least they were cheap.

That ebay Indian seller looks like he's selling the real Mitutoyo stuff, (so far as I can tell) but his prices are dearer than buying new Mitutoyo from places like Long Island Indicator.

I wonder if these are higher quality fake Indian copies of Mitutoyo, maybe they looked at the Mitutoyo web site and decided they could make better fakes...:)

In any event you could buy a top of the line brand like a Compac 0.01 for $170 + postage from 154 : Compac small metric dial indicator (http://www.longislandindicator.com/p154.html)

Versus ebay Indian Mitutoyo for $185+$15 postage... :no:

Regards
Ray