Green Hardwood in a Thicknesser

[Chrispy_S]

Hi all,

I am about to start building a deck at the back of my house and have already procured the timber. I have chosen to use F14 rough sawn green hardwood for the substructure and also the posts and header beam for the (future) pergola.

I am considering putting the 100x100 (green rough sawn) grey ironbark posts through my thicknesser to dress them up prior to installing them. I am wondering if there are any issues with putting fresh green hardwood through a thicknesser??

I am guessing it will mess up the planer blades a bit with all the sap and what not, but aside from that am I just wasting my time dressing these posts before they have dried and shrunk?? should I put the posts up as is and then hit them with a belt sander after they have dried and shrunk??

Any comments/advice would be appreciated..

Chrispy..

[China]

I would not put any sort of green timber through my thicknesser, I also would not build a deck or anything else from green timber

[thefixer]

:whs:

[wun4us]

:negrep:

[danny.s]

Yeah I'd be worried about using green timber for anything structural?

[pjt]

Many houses are built using green timber, Kevin Mcloud (Grand Designs) talks of using green oak in the featured house, chippies prefer green timber as it is easier to work, as far as putting it thru a thicknessor, if it was cut yesterday and dripping wet but today you want the thickness it, you will get a lot more resin build up plus rusting issues, I doubt you will damage the blades its soft green wood, may not cut as clean if it was dry but should still do it, if it was cut a month ago and had been stacked as if to air dry you would most likely find that it would go thru quite nicely as long as depth of cut is not too deep and you should have a smooth finish which I suspect is what you are after, as they dry tho they will change shape and that shape largely depends on how they have been cut as far as grain orientation goes

as far as whether you do it :?

Pete

[Robson Valley]

Not a good plan at all.
Aside from the mess in the thicknesser (jammed chips?)
1. Who cares how pretty the substructure is?
2. The wood will experience "movement" as it dries out. Neither you nor I can predict how much, how far and in what direction. If it warps like hello, how embarrassing.
I never try to build anything with banana-boards.

Sticker the stuff, shelter it and let it dry out, 25-30mm of thickness/yr.

[vk4]

I agree that green timber will certainly warp and bow as it dries , regardless of being rough or smooth.

If it has been cut for a while weeks -months then the outside 3-4mm will have started to dry out, and you may see the beginnings of the set of the timber, the longer it has had to dry the more pronounced the set.

As to what it will do to your thicknesser , it will leave tannin stains on the steel and alloy parts, ( and your hands as well), if the cuts are kept thin the chips should clear , if heavy cuts they may not, this is a variable.

If you are after a better finish try a piece with your power plane first , I would only be looking at doing any material that WOULD BE IN VIEW, leave the rest rough or at the most just a light pass to clean up the worst of the faces.

This is IRON BARK, and it is 1 of the hardest AUSTRALIAN Hardwoods so the idea of building while green could be a good idea, but watch what fasteners you use, as the tannin will start attacking the metal straight a way.

Jeff

[Bernt]

I agree that green timber will certainly warp and bow as it dries , regardless of being rough or smooth.

If it has been cut for a while weeks -months then the outside 3-4mm will have started to dry out, and you may see the beginnings of the set of the timber, the longer it has had to dry the more pronounced the set.

As to what it will do to your thicknesser , it will leave tannin stains on the steel and alloy parts, ( and your hands as well), if the cuts are kept thin the chips should clear , if heavy cuts they may not, this is a variable.

If you are after a better finish try a piece with your power plane first , I would only be looking at doing any material that WOULD BE IN VIEW, leave the rest rough or at the most just a light pass to clean up the worst of the faces.

This is IRON BARK, and it is 1 of the hardest AUSTRALIAN Hardwoods so the idea of building while green could be a good idea, but watch what fasteners you use, as the tannin will start attacking the metal straight a way.

Jeff

As well as the tannin and its affect on metal. The timber will also turn black..

Electric handplaner will probably give you a better result.

[rod1949]

Jeez just as well you's blokes don't own a timber mill cause you'll all be broke cause you'd be saying something like "sorry thats green timber I can't put that through the machines cause it will clog everything up and cause staining on my nice machines" what a load of poppycock.

[Bernt]

Jeez just as well you's blokes don't own a timber mill cause you'll all be broke cause you'd be saying something like "sorry thats green timber I can't put that through the machines cause it will clog everything up and cause staining on my nice machines" what a load of poppycock.

haha, you're pretty right!

Actually I do own a timber mill....

I just build a green timber frame house, most tools handle green timber fine. The thicknesser seems to be the main machine that doesn't handle it all that well, I suppose it wasn't designed for that. Dry shavings weigh nothing and get sucked away, wet ones stick to each other and build up.

I don't think there is anything wrong with building with green timber, you just don't build the same way as you would with seasoned material.

I have tried machining green timber in the past (at customers request) only to find black stains everywhere where the timber had been in contact with the thicknesser bed. Maybe you can put a melamine top over your thicknesser bed to avoid this.

[GraemeCook]

Further to Bernt's comments, until quite recently, 30 years ago??, it was the norm to frame houses in Australia with green timber. Virtually all of those "properly built" classic houses were green framed.

When I worked in the timber industry in the 1970's we got many orders for dressed green timber and our very heavy mill equipment readily handles it. Sometimes it was only 48 hours from a standing tree to dressed boards.

But as green dressed timber dried out it surface checked and basically did not stay dressed. After a year it was virtually indistinguishable from twelve month of undressed material.

Cheers

Graeme

[pjt]

Jeez just as well you's blokes don't own a timber mill cause you'll all be broke cause you'd be saying something like "sorry thats green timber I can't put that through the machines cause it will clog everything up and cause staining on my nice machines" what a load of poppycock.

:laughing1:

[danny.s]

Yeah I'd be worried about using green timber for anything structural?

I stand corrected, I know nothing about green timber

[Chrispy_S]

Thanks for all your comments.

I have decided that I will use a belt sander instead of a thicknesser on the visible elements of the structure (ie. the posts and the header beam for the future pergola). I'm not worried about the bearers and joists, they will go in as is, rough as guts...

For the visible timbers I really just want to get the ripple marks from the sawing operation out of the surface and bevel the edges of the timber before I install it. In terms of shrinkage, I know I can't stop this occurring but I do intend on framing the timber sections so that significant movement or warping resulting from shrinkage doesn't occur... I do understand that the tendancy to warp or twist depends largely on what part of the log the section was cut from and which way the grain runs etc.. The grey ironbark posts and header beams appear to have good straight grain and have obviously been cut from decent sized logs.. they are F14 graded and hopefully they will prove to be good solid sections that don't want to move around too much.

The only thing I am not 100% sure about is the degree of surface checking that will occur over the years. I plan on letting the posts and beam weather for a month or so and then giving them a sand and applying a decking type oil.. A bit of surface checking doesn't bother me, in fact I think it adds character.. just as long as there are no gaping splits in the surface..!!

As for the joists and bearers, I am not at all concerned about the fact that these are green. They will all be framed in and once the boards are screwed down they will not be able to warp.. If one or two joists decide they want to war in a certain direction there is sufficient rigidity in the rest of the frames structure to keep them in place and then once they have seasoned over a few years they will just keep getting harder and more rigid... I know quite a few people who have framed the substructure of their decks with green hardwood and they are the most solid flat decks you would ever walk on... no bounce like some TP framed decks have..

I must say as a general comment that I am a bit surprised how many people use TP for the bearers and joists in their deck. I know it is cheaper and easier to work with than hardwood but you need almost twice the section depth to achieve the same rigidity and strength and the long term durability of TP is not all that great compared to hardwood... Once you factor in the larger section sizes required the cost doesn't appear to be that much less than hardwood..

I have worked with hardwood taken from old 1940's and 1950's houses and when you see how strong, hard and durable it still is after all those years it makes pine look like rubbish!!


Chrispy

[Ken-67]

I usually arris the corners, and sand all the faces with a belt or orbital sander, before I start using the timber. This removes most of the splinters, and makes it easier to handle, and easier to mark for cutting. I usually use a 60 or 80 grit.