Varnamo Shaper

[RayG]

Sometimes you have to be in the right place at the right time...

Went to an auction in Wangaratta to help my sister pick out a good wood lathe, and picked up this little gem...

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1008.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1009.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1007.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1010.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN0992.JPG

Also picked up the Waldown Pedestal (the one in the front) I'll get a better picture later.

And before anyone asks the Shaper was $140, and the Waldown for $70 :D

I passed on a big 3phase Parkanson Hacksaw for $25.. :doh:

Now I just have to figure out how to get it home and where to put it, while I plan a bit of restoration work...

Regards
Ray
PS The majority of people at the auction were farmers, gates and stock troughs went for fair prices, a PTO slasher went for over $1000, but no-one, knew what a shaper was, and I lost count of the number of people who came up to me afterwards and wanted to know what it was... my kind of auction.:2tsup:

Oh, and none of the wood lathe's were any good, for what my sister wanted.... maybe next time.

[Bryan]

Well done Ray! Welcome to the shaper family. :)

Edit: The shaper looks in really good nick. You'll be hunting for a vise I guess.
Hope the drill didn't get damaged when it fell over.

[morrisman]

Serendipity it is :2tsup: There must be quite a deal of older engineering machinery around as manufacturing here in Australia has fallen away to a large degree. Small country towns often had a small engineering business , many have closed and auctions can be a source of a bargain or two. MIKE

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
What no tooling? lol
You sure hang out in the right places :)
That shed is filling up fast.
What sort of stroke?14-18" there abouts?
A 6" no name one went on ebay this morning for $325.
Does it have a pressure lube system?

Is $140 the first bid? what they figured the scrap value was?
Guess its a bit late now but did you have a good look around for the vice?


Whats with the funny shaped bricks? someone building a chimney?

"And before anyone asks the Shaper was $140, and the Waldown for $70" That totals to $50 short of what my height gauge cost me. :D

Stuart

p.s. kicking myself about the vices as I saw some go cheapish(not cheap enough for me to pick up as I have one already) about a month back and I didnt know of anyone looking for one. now I know two people.

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

No vise, I looked and asked... no deal.

No automatic lubrication that I could see.. unless there is something inside the casting? but I won't know for sure until I get it home and figure out how it all works.

I'm fairly sure the stroke is 14"... I'm still looking for some information on-line, I think there is a manual on-line somewhere.

And the funny shaped bricks were everywhere, several pallet loads went for $2 per pallet. :)

Regards
Ray

EDIT: The first bid was $100, the only other bidder was a guy who I picked out as likely to be a scrap dealer.

[Steamwhisperer]

p.s. kicking myself about the vices as I saw some go cheapish(not cheap enough for me to pick up as I have one already) about a month back and I didnt know of anyone looking for one. now I know two people.


Three

Phil

[RayG]

Here is a bit more on the Waldown, condition seems fair enough, and I think it will be a goer when the surface rust is cleaned up.



http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1017.JPG


http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1021.JPG
The usual termite holes... maybe a bit less damage than some other's i've seen.


http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1023.JPG

The original paint is still under there, if I can get that sickly green paint off, it might not be too bad.

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Ok Phil , three it is then. (of course now I know people that are looking I'll likely never see another one)

It is an "interesting" color Ray. At least you have something to scan the Waldown color.

I was thinking power lube system becuae I cant think what else the arrowed part if for.

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

I found an on line manual, but it's in Swedish ... I'm looking at the smörjnings anvisningar
and it has a section titled Cirkulations smorjning...

So, I'm struggling to avoid breaking into Sesame Street style swedish cook talk, but it looks like the smorjning, is automatic... :)

Regards
Ray

EDIT: Ok, eventually located the correct section it's an EV3 18" stroke. or if you prefer... slaglangd 18 tum

[Abratool]

Ray
What a wonderful purchase & the price is right!
Well done, however if you get tired of it please give me a call it would look very good in my workshop.
I do not know if my box trailer would stand the trip, however.:rolleyes:
All the best for Christmas, a good solid Shaper, a nice Christmas present.:2tsup:
regards
Bruce:)

[Greg Q]

... smorjning, is automatic. Bork! Bork! Bork!.

I know you were trying to resist Sesame St., but it's right up my alley. (to mix metaphors or something)

GQ

[RayG]

... smorjning, is automatic. Bork! Bork! Bork!.
GQ

:2tsup: It's strangely infectious, and you're not helping me to resist wandering around the workshop mumbling ... Bork! Bork! Bork! :D

Regards
Ray

[Greg Q]

He's everywhere, just like ChickenMan!

Wy wife takes girlish delight at this old happy meal toy stuck in her mixer:

Great score on the shaper. Next you'll need an Arboga Maskiner mill/drill, or some woodworking machines from Eskilstuna.

GQ

[Dave J]

Nice score Ray:2tsup:, luck seems to run your way with picking up machines cheap.:o
The shaper looks like it hasn't been abused, and I am sure that drill will clean up nice.

As for a vice, they come up often down you way, so just keep your eye out.

Just remember not to run the shaper when your tied, or it will put you to sleep. LOL

Dave

[Anorak Bob]

It's good to see that the machines have gone to an appreciative home Ray. I love the shaper! Dwarfs my little Douglas.

If you decide to dismantle the Waldown, here is a simple tip regarding the quill return spring's removal. Extend the quill to wind up the spring. Either tighten the pinch bolt to prevent the quill from retracting, or tie one of the handle spokes back to the column to acheive the some result. Lash some wire around the compressed spring then raise the quill. The spring can then be readily removed ( and reinstalled ).

Your drill shares shares a number of features found on the heavier 2M and 3M models which have a quill and spindle assembly far more complicated than that of the simple "Workmax" drill. I would be interested to find out if it is the same as the former two.

Waldown have an exploded parts drawing for the 3M on their website which proved invaluable when I tarted up my drill.

The first photo shows the spring furled and lashed on the economy model and the second photo is of the 3M which should be like yours. A bit easier to access being outboard.

BT

[RayG]

Hi BT,

Thanks for the tip, that will come in handy, the name plate says it's Type 8 SN series III, I'm going to have to pull it down anyway, as the sliding clamp is broken.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1025.JPG

Plus to do justice to a new paint job it's better if it's in bits...


Thanks Bryan, Stuart, Bruce, Dave and Greg, I appreciate the good wishes, and please notice I haven't said Bork! once .... though swedish google translate is getting a bit of a workout.

Regards
Ray

[xXvapourXx]

WOW :o
What a bargain, hope you have fun with these machines and im sure you will :D
Thank god the hotels have computers or else i would be missing out on so much stuff :/
Looking forward to a restoration :D
Good buy :2tsup:

Cooper

[RayG]

Hi All,
Thanks Cooper, it pays to help your sister sometimes, :) if she hadn't asked me to come with her to look at wood lathes, I wouldn't have gone to the auction..

After a week of planning, phone calls, and wild guesses as to the load carrying capacity of the ute, I decided that the capacity of the ute was around 1000kg and the shaper was probably somewhere close to 900-1100..

Loaded up with a forklift hire in Wangaratta early this morning, and here it is ready to hit the road...

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1043.JPG

That's two sets of 8mm (4000kg capacity) chains stopping it moving forward (under braking), one set of 8mm chain stopping it moving backward, and two 2500 kg straps stopping it bouncing around on bumps.

Hire forklift to load was $60, and unloading was $85, so I've at least doubled the original investment..:)

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1046.JPG
Home safe.. and a drink of WD40.. by way of welcome to your new home... me, I'll have a VB, purely to calm the nerves you understand..

Now where the hell do I put it... :doh:

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

I was thinking power lube system becuae I cant think what else the arrowed part if for.
Stuart

Hi Stuart,

It's a power point, European style 240V, I guess it's for a worklight?

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
Good news that its/shes home safe.
How did the ute feel? I know they are spring damn hard in the rear.
I think it looks good right were it is :p, but then Imight have a thing for shapers.

Great prices on the forklifts also!

Are you going to pull it to pieces or just give it a clean and some oil and fire it up?

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Ray,
Are you going to pull it to pieces or just give it a clean and some oil and fire it up?
Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Ute was fine**, Tyres were the only thing that I as a little nervous about.. I put 40 psi in the tyres at the Servo in Glenrowan, and stopped 2 or 3 times to check the tyre temperatures, but no problems. The weight of the shaper dropped the ute by 3 or 4 inches, and we fiddled about tweaking the position on the tray and getting it centered so that it was sort of level... I reckon I had about 1-2 inches of travel left in the suspension, so it was a slow and careful trip.

I'm not planning on pulling it down, from what I've seen so far the condition seems ok, and I think I can get away with a cleanup, a bit of oil, and crank it up.

Regards
Ray

** Nissan Navara D22 3 liter turbo diesel, tough little ute...

[Bryan]

Ray, a safe move is a good move. A safe, cheap move is brilliant. :2tsup: Are you sure you put enough chains on it? :wink:

[Dave J]

Good to see it's home safe Ray. :2tsup: It looks like factory latter type motor on it, so maybe it's a ,more modern shaper than ours.
The only comment I would make on your set up would be to take the sides off next time so the chains could be pulled tight, instead of going over them.

You will be able to clean up some long surfaces now for next to nothing, instead of using the mill.

Dave

[RayG]

Thanks Bryan, I get a nervous about moving heavy stuff, especially when it's fragile like machinery.. the more chains the better..

Hi Dave, You are right, I would have better off without the sides, definitely something to keep in mind for the next move..


I've cleaned it up a bit and pulled the belt cover off so I can turn it over by hand, seems to turn smoothly enough, no clunks, and the head goes backwards and forwards (when I put it in gear).

I might hook up a VFD and turn it over at low speed to try and figure out the various controls.

Anything I should be particularly be looking for?

Regards
Ray

Edit: Dave, I think it's late 50's maybe early 60's Sunshine Tech bought a Varnamo EV3 in 1958 for 751 pounds, don't know what that would be worth today?

[Dave J]

751 pounds, wow you have done you home work already.
I would pull the ram off and clean the ways, it doesn't take much to get it off but that is the main working part and if there is anything in their it could do damage strait up.

If you undo the ram adjuster and take out the gib it should lift strait off, this way you can give a clean, inspect the ways so you know what they are like, oil it up and then adjust the gibs properly so you know they are right.

Dave

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
Couple of things come to mind.
1. make sure the motor is running the right way, slow power stroke, quick return stroke. If you take the side cover off the sliding block that controls the stroke length should be at the top going out and the bottom on return(assuming its the same inside there as most shapers).
2. Make sure you have the auto feed set to feed on the back stroke. Depending on the tool you will only be ale to feed in one direction anyway, but if you try and change feed direction by simply turning the ratchet around it will feed on the power stroke unless you stop the machine and move the feed length arm(no idea what its real name is) to the other side of center.(I wonder how much this matters with the cuts we are ever likely to take.)

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Ray,
move the feed length arm(no idea what its real name is) to the other side of center.

Stuart


Hi Stuart,

Hmm.. According to the manual, that's the "centrumtappen med handratten"... sorry wrong part "roterande kugghjuliet" I think.. no wrong again, I'll scan it..
Good tip on the rotation check, that was something I was wondering about.
There are video's on youtube with shapers running backwards, and the owners never knew. :)


Hi Dave,

I can't see what you mean, I'll post a picture and you can see if it makes any sense, the dovetail ways don't look too bad anyway.


Drained and flushed the gearbox, one more job done. So with a bit of luck might be ready for a bit of a test run later tonight, then if it all looks good I'll move it to it's final location.

Regards
Ray

[Dave J]

I will wait for your picture, but the gib usually lifts out to take the ram off. I am just thinking it has been sitting for a while and would only take 1/2 hour to do.

Dave

[Bryan]

Ray it's pretty important to verify there's plenty of clean oil getting to the ram ways and the main bearing. On mine you can only lift the ram a few inches, then you drive out a big pin from the short link. I guess that's a typical setup, since there has to be a short link. Though it could be attached in various ways. Lifting it may be enough to see the oil ports. What sort of lifting gear do you have? They can really hold on. Mine always needs a lot of lift (engine crane), then pops, which can be a bit alarming.

[RayG]

Hi Dave, Bryan I'll take some pictures and then get some advice.

Stuart, Meantime here's the operating instructions for feed adjustment, starting to make some sense... except for the bit about freezing asparagus? :D

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/VarnamoFeedSystem.jpg

Here's the google translate version..

"Table feed eight different feeds for the table. 3 Cross travel there and those connected by moving the spindle with hand wheel / one / more or less from the center of the rotating gear wheel /2 / series of measurements obtained for all sizes of shaping machine type EV s 0125 -1.00 mm with a step of 0125 mm between each measurement size


Supply to switch on and off by turning the knob / 3 / on the power rafters. This button raises and lowers the freezing asparagus bolt wheel / 4 / A rate of 90 raises the rafter bolt and disconnect the power supply, a rotation of 180 from its original position switches the feed direction from right to left feed

What the hell is a freezing asparagus bolt wheel...?

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

freezing asparagus = ratchet pawl maybe??

Hi Bryan,
I dont think Rays will be as hard to get off as yours as his doesn't(I dont think) have the all singing all dancing stroke position adjustment like yours.


Hi Ray, Moving 1 in the tee slot in 2 past the center of 2 moves the feed timing 180degrees. Make sense?


Stuart.

[RayG]

Here's the pictures of the assembly.

I guess you remove the top part of the right hand side dovetail, disconnect whatever linkages are underneath, and then slide the whole thing sideways and , then lift..

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1047.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1048.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1049.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1050.JPG

I guess the frozen asparagus goes under the button that lifts up and rotates to change the feed driection.. :) Thanks Stuart, I'm slowly getting the idea about the 180 degree change by moving the arm to the other side of center.

Regards
Ray

[Dave J]

Hi Ray,
Looking at that I would say the gib will be a L shape and backing off the adjusters and undoing the Allen head bolts and it will come right off.
The only linkage that will be connected is the square drive one in the slot, as that is attached to the main crank arm.
If you do pull it apart, when it goes back together just wrap a piece of rope around it to pull it back up while you put the bolt back in.
It will be heavy, so you would be better off with the engine crane to lift it up, and to place it back, but you shouldn't need to move it away from the machine to clean it.

Dave

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
What you inside reading this for, get back out to the shed. But since you are here, The red arrow is a slide lock?
The yellow arrow is the tool slide angle lock?

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart, Sorry, I had to come inside for some more asparagus... :) What red and yellow arrows?

Hi Dave,

Yep right again, came off easily enough, good thing too, lots of rusty gunk, but mostly just wiped off, I thought there was an automatic lubrication system, but this is manual, which explains the oil nipples...:doh: I'll need an engine crane to get the top off, and get access to the other side.
Here's the pictures of the top right hand dovetail slide.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1051.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1053.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1054.JPG

No scoring or wear to speak of, but I'll need to get the whole thing off to clean up the other side. No shaper testing today...

Regards
Ray

EDIT: Google translate says that "sparrbulten fran sparrhjulet" is "rafter bolt to the freezing wheel" but when you put "sanker" (swedish for lower) in front of the phrase.
like "sanker sparrbulten fran sparrhjulet" becomes "lowers the freezing asparagus bolt wheel" :) so, the correct translation, (not involving asparagus) would be
Raises and lowers the rafter bolt to the freezing wheel. So, it's a freezing wheel a ratchet, with a locking bolt.... :) It's a bit like that Monty Python sketch with the Hungarian/English dictionaries... :D

[Bryan]

Ray, I had similar weirdness when trying to translate an Italian manual. Technical terms often don't make it into general lexicons (lexica?). There are lots of translation engines available; you could try some different ones. Lateral thinking can help, eg could freezing mean locking? Clamping?

Edit: I found it easier to understand the machine directly, by fooling with it, than to hassle with the translation.

[Stustoys]

Sorry Ray,
These arrows.

Your slides look way better than mine :2tsup:

Stuart

[Dave J]

Lucky you took it off Ray, as that surface rust would have turned into grinding paste if it was left their.

The ways look in pretty good condition compared to my Alba ones, it may not have done much work.
You might be better off using a green kitchen scourer oiled up on the exposed table and knee ways before you move them as well, they probably have light rust and dirt on them from sitting.

Dave

[RayG]

Sorry Ray,
These arrows.

Your slides look way better than mine :2tsup:

Stuart


Hi Stuart,

The red arrow locks the head raise and lower, the yellow arrow is the head position adjust, the head position lock is the one above the pointer.

I think I've sussed out all the adjustments, can't see any means of adjusting the clearance on the knee, but I think it has something to do with those bolts that have orange plastic things on the head?

The stroke length adjustment locking mechanism is a knurled nut, with multi-grip marks... and I can't move it.. :~ Anyway I think I need to make some handles before I go too much further as well..

Also as Dave (and Bryan) first suggested, I'm going to have to get the head off before much else can happen, so hopefully things will take shape (pun intended) tomorrow...

Still all in all, a pretty successful day. :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
My shaper has a dovetail way on the knee so it has a wedge(?) gib. So I can't help much.

Yours looks like another interesting gib(?)

Is this a shim(is does look like shim in the other pirctures but it sure does in that one).

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

It could be shims? I'll have a closer look and see, meantime, solved another little mystery..

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/190516d1323425162t-varnamo-shaper-dscn1047.jpg

That bulge on the side of the head just in front of the head position adjustment, is for an automatic down feed option, (sadly not fitted)...

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
So you're does have the all singing all dancing stroke position adjustment?(Sorry Bryan)
I also have the bulge but no down feed. I think a tool lifter would be more use, but I guess what it depends what you have in mind.

Stuart

[Dave J]

The Alba stroke adjustment is similar to that set up and runs to bevel gears and a lead screw on the other side. I wish the Douglas was the same, because it's a pain to adjust.

Dave

[Sterob]

I have an Aussie mate living in Sweden that might be able to translate it for you.
Thats his job .( translating Swedish into English.) He would not know engineering terms though.
Let me know.

Sterob

[RayG]

Thanks Sterob, I'll upload the pdf manual you can see what he thinks.

The inspection process continues, I hooked up the block and tackle to lift off the head, and check the dovetail ways.

The first attempt was set up like this.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1055.JPG

But the head needs to lift and rotate at the same time, and I couldn't get clear of the ways. I thought I could use the wooden blocks to do the rotation, but it didn't work.

So I changed and lifted off center like this
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1064.JPG

And got far enough to get a good look at the ways and see how much rust has accumulated.

This is the open side
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1065.JPG

And this is the side I couldn't get to without lifting the head
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1061.JPG

This shows a bit more clearly why you have to lift and rotate.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1066.JPG

The inside of the ways. sorry for the crappy picture...
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1063.JPG

I can't see how to get that pin out, or I would have lifted it off further..

That's it, time to clean it up and give it a bit of oil, and check the oil nipples are clear before it goes back together...

One thing I noticed was that the flaking on the ways is still there, admittedly flaking is usually pretty deep, but still, it's a good indication that it hasn't done much work.


Regards
Ray

PS, Sterob here's that Swedish Manual, see what you mate thinks.

[Dave J]

Great pictures Ray,:2tsup:
I would say you need to either wind the block off the lead screw or wind the lead screw out to lift it higher. The pin would be press fit and the lead screw would need to be off before you could get to it.

Anyway it looks like you have enough access to clean it up.

Dave

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
I dont have one of these so I'm just guessing, but as you've removed the stroke position locking bolt aren't you lifting the yoke(I think thats what its called) with the stroke position adjustment screw? The yoke on mine is pretty damn heavy.

Next guess, can't you just undo bolts 33 on page 13 of your pdf? So that the adjustment screw stays with the yoke?(you might have to wide the adjustment to each extreme so you can get to the bolt heads)

Do you remember the pictures of my ways? lol

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Stuart,

Yep, looking at that drawing, removing those two bolts (33's) and the position adjustment locking screw, would disconnect the head from the yoke, and I could lift the whole head off without removing the pin. It's all back together now, so I'm not going to do it. :)

Also It should be easy enough to get at those bolts, by moving the head..

I went back to your Invicta 4M thread, lot's of good reading there, and yes I saw the pictures of the ways... I won't re-post them here.. :)

Thanks Dave, The rust wasn't all that bad, but thanks for the tip. Getting at the ways was well worth the effort. :2tsup:

I'm off to hook up the VFD...

Regards
Ray

[Bryan]

Good work Ray, and great to see the ways in such good nick. Mine are a horror show. Seems like the integral dovetail makes life difficult. Can't really see the advantage. Lucky you won't have to scrape it.

BTW, at the risk of seeming pedantic, it's called a ram. The head is the swivelly bit at the end of the ram that holds the tool slide & clapper.

[Michael G]

My translation program doesn't like asparagus - I get
3 / in feeding latch. this button
raise and lower locking bolt
from ratchet wheel

Reminds me of the fun I had translating my mill manual

Michael

[RayG]

Hi All,

I hooked up a temporary VFD to give it a test run, to get some idea of the operation, and find out what needs to be done before I can start using it.

It's running at 25 Hz so it's half speed for that gear selection.

Here's a quick video (of sorts)

http://youtu.be/LsFoWvZ5bQsVarnamo.AVI - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsFoWvZ5bQs)

Regards
Ray

Not sure why the forum youtube embedding isn't working, so I've just made it a URL ?

[Sterob]

I don't think he would have the time to translate 23 pages, but if there were one or two pages that you would like translated, we could try that?
Sorry, I thought it was just that page you wanted.
Sterob

[Dave J]

What HP motor is on it Ray?

Dave

[RayG]

Hi Sterob,

All understood, thanks for the thought, much appreciated.

Hi Dave,

It's a 3 hp motor. Did that gearbox sound ok to you?

Regards
Ray

PS 6:30am leaving for Steam CIty (Ballarat) Should be a good day..

[Michael G]

Here's a start. There are another 3 pages that look to have useful information on them that I may look at later if time permits.
The translation is rather free form, so I've left things in a word format so that you can add the diagrams back in and alter wording based on what you find.

Michael
190638

190639

190640

190641

[Bryan]

Ray, you're scaring me. Please wind the tool slide up. It's very close to the column on the back stroke. If it hits you will do major damage. You wouldn't normally have it overhanging that far for cutting anyway.

[Michael G]

Part 2. I think after doing this that the translated word 'spool' is probably something like ram.
Hope this helps (sounds like a good machine)

Michael

190676

190677

190678

[Pete F]

Ray as a matter of curiosity, what do you think you'll use that shaper for that you couldn't do on the mill? I struggle a lot with room, so there's no way in heck I could ever fit a big shaper in, but I've often thought about a small one. I really struggle to justify one based on utility, but am very keen to be convinced that I really have a hidden need for one :U Based on my principles of boundless plagiarism, I want to steal ideas of uses off others.

Pete

[RayG]

Hi Michael, Those translations are excellent, thank you, much appreciated, I'll start work getting the drawings cut and pasted. Do you have a PDF character recognition program? Which one?

Hi Bryan, I wasn't aware of the danger, so thanks for the alert! :2tsup: I did wind it over quite a few times by hand with the belt covers off before starting it.

Hi Pete,
You are laboring under the misapprehension that there is some method to my madness, me buying the machine, was a crime of opportunity..

Let me set the scene...
I was there, and the machine was in front of me, and, there, was the auctioneer saying $100 going once, going twice, and temptation got the better of me. You know the rest.

What can you do with a shaper that you can't do with a mill? Good question, maybe those with more experience can answer better than I can , but some slotting jobs can't be done on a mill, maybe cutting inside keyways? I can do 18 wide cuts" with the shaper, which is a bit more than the mill. Also HSS tooling is cheaper..

I'm sure those with more shaper experience can help out here...

Final justification is, another nice bit of machinery saved from the scrap dealer, and the abuse of being left outside to rust away. That's good enough reason for me.

Regards
Ray

[Pete F]

Ray, yeah 14" keyways was about the best I could come up with too :p

Still, there's something very cool about shapers, at least in my mind.

Pete

[Michael G]

Nothing as sophisticated as that I'm afraid Ray. I print out likely looking pages, run them through the printer/scanner (which came with software for Swedish OCR capability) and then cut/ paste the resultant text into the Google translate tool (there are always bits that it misses, so there are some corrections that need to be made). As I noted earlier, I had to do something similar for my mill, so it was just more of the same.
I used to have a specialist translation software package but these days the Google version is just as good and free.

Pete, the other nice things that shapers like that (and even my 'little' 10" Elliot) can do is take the skin off castings really well. That and key ways are the main thing that mine gets used for. Particularly with the bigger mill I tend to forget the shaper but it's nice to have. Although I heard that some are still made in China, shapers are one of those things that once they are scrapped there's one less in the world as there is no demand for them industrially any more (except for the odd keyway or prepping a casting).

Michael

[Bryan]

Ray, yeah 14" keyways was about the best I could come up with too :p

Still, there's something very cool about shapers, at least in my mind.

Pete

You've answered your own question. :)

[Steamwhisperer]

I'm sure those with more shaper experience can help out here.

Hi Ray,
where do I begin.
Gears, sprockets, splines (internal and external), dovetails 'T' slots 'T' nuts, even a round shaft can be machined on a shaper. A bloke needed a master to scrape a dovetail so he shaped it on his shaper, hand scraped it then used that as a master to scrape his dovetail in. This is just a fraction of the things you can do on a shaper and it costs next to nothing for tooling. You will only be limited by your imagination which means you will not be limited one little bit.

Phil

[Abratool]

Hi Ray,
where do I begin.
Gears, sprockets, splines (internal and external), dovetails 'T' slots 'T' nuts, even a round shaft can be machined on a shaper. A bloke needed a master to scrape a dovetail so he shaped it on his shaper, hand scraped it then used that as a master to scrape his dovetail in. This is just a fraction of the things you can do on a shaper and it costs next to nothing for tooling. You will only be limited by your imagination which means you will not be limited one little bit.

Phil
Phil
Well said.
Shapers are great machines. One never ceases to be amazed at a single point reciprocating HSS toolbit removing metal so quickly on all sorts of rough castings, rusted, & heavily mill scaled steel,apart from the other numerous jobs you have mentioned.
When the toolbit dulls, a quick off hand grind & all is in operation again.Tooling cost are minimal.
I have a mill, but always regret selling off a Douglas 10" Shaper I had some years back.
Often considering getting another.
regards
Bruce:)

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Bruce
They are fantastic aren't they.
The real sickness is that sometimes I just turn it on, giggle, then turn it off again and walk away. Its ok though, I am seeking counselling.

Phil

[Abratool]

Hi Bruce
They are fantastic aren't they.
The real sickness is that sometimes I just turn it on, giggle, then turn it off again and walk away. Its ok though, I am seeking counselling.

Phil
Phil
I did not want to mention it,but I did the same.
I would turn the machine on set the cross feed in motion, view the crank mechanism & I seemed to like oiling the slides, whilst standing there mesmorised by it all.:rolleyes: I miss that machine.
When you find a good counsellor, please let me know !
regards
Bruce:)

[Pete F]

Hi Ray,
where do I begin.
Gears, sprockets, splines (internal and external), dovetails 'T' slots 'T' nuts, even a round shaft can be machined on a shaper. A bloke needed a master to scrape a dovetail so he shaped it on his shaper, hand scraped it then used that as a master to scrape his dovetail in. This is just a fraction of the things you can do on a shaper and it costs next to nothing for tooling. You will only be limited by your imagination which means you will not be limited one little bit.

Phil

Phil, all very true, however the whole question was what could be done on a shaper that couldn't also be done on a mill? Looking through the list above, only internal splines would qualify from what I can see. Yes it's quite true that much cheaper and possibly bespoke tooling can be used, but offsetting that is the cost of the machine :) I can certainly see why Ray bought this and I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from it, if I had the room and was in the same position I would have done the same. However assuming a person already had a large mill I'm simply curious as to just how much use a large shaper would be in practice. It seems to me that vertical mills basically replaced the shaper for almost all operations. Throw in some broaches and that basically covers it from what I can see. Nevertheless many people do indeed have both machines, so I'm curious as to when they use the shaper.

Pete

[RayG]

Hi Bruce
They are fantastic aren't they.
The real sickness is that sometimes I just turn it on, giggle, then turn it off again and walk away. Its ok though, I am seeking counselling.

Phil

I think I'm getting the same affliction, I finally now understand what Stuart was trying to tell me about the automatic cross feed reverse, when cross feeding the opposite way the arm needs to be the other side of center, so it cross feeds on the back stroke... magic machine...

As Bryan said, it's easier by playing with the machine, it's all starting to make more sense than the Swedish instructions.. :rolleyes:

Just watching it run is very therapeutic.. comparing a shaper to a mill, seems to me, is like comparing a router to a chisel. :)

Too late for counselling now...

Regards
Ray

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Pete
True very true but a mill will never produce a flat surface, at least not as flat as a shaper purely because of the rotative action of the cutter taking into account head alignment, bearing clearances, sides forces applied to the cutter, cutter sharpness degradation throughout the length of the cut etc etc.
For ultra flat surfaces you could use a traveling head shaper. And still you won't have empty pockets from purchasing tooling.
I apologise Pete, for ranting. I love shapers (can't afford a mill....yet)

Phil

[Stustoys]

I finally now understand what Stuart was trying to tell me about the automatic cross feed reverse
Its all down to my skillful use of the English language to mislead and confuse :p. I knew what I was trying to say even if no one else did.

Just wait until you start using it Ray, You'll be asleep in no time.

Hi Phil,
Any idea what makes a traveling head shaper cut a flatter surface?(I've only ever seen pictures of them, I don't recall even seeing one for sale). I've seen it said a planer is flatter. My books say even then you'll be hand scrapping because you cant clamp the work without some distortion.

Stuart

[Pete F]

Hey Phil, not a rant at all. Having never used a shaper I'm just curious to learn more from those who do. i have been on and off buying a little Douglas for ages. I really don't think I can afford the room, even though the price is typically very good. Like Ray, if I happened to to be in the wrong place at the right time however ... :p

When comparing the flatness of a surface produced by a shaper and a mill, do you feel a shaper will produce a flatter surface than fly cutting? I'm comparing similar sized machines, not some theoretical exercise. ie fly cutting on a single pass on a properly trammed unworn mill, compared to shaping the same surface on an unworn shaper.

Pete

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Pete,
More so with fly cutting. The further the tool is from the centre of rotation the greater the scallop produced. It magnifies any error. The time it would take just to tram a mill head to the degree of accuracy required, assuming no play in the quill bearings at all, a shaper would have the job finished. The planing rather than rotative action will dictate this. As long as I can remember (which lately seems to be about a week) the shaper or planer is known to be the best way to produce a flat surface.
Offset a mill head 10 degrees and you will produce a concave surface. If you bring it back to within 1 second of a degree you will still produce a concave surface, albeit a very small concave but concave none the less.

Phil

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Ray,
I should have shown you the keyways on the crankshaft of the large steam engine in the battery that do the driving and locating of the flywheel. They are about 2 foot long and 1 inch wide. They were done with a shaper. Wonder what it would cost to do that job on a mill. I have a Douglas 10" at home and you could easily cut a 9" long 1" wide keyway in a bit of 6" shaft on it. Cant think why I would, apart from insanity, but at least I could.
Limited only by your imagination.

Phil

[Pete F]

The further the tool is from the centre of rotation the greater the scallop produced. It magnifies any error.

Phil, yes I appreciate that, but as I said above, assuming a properly trammed mill. Personally I keep my mill head accurately trammed so there is zero setup time in that process. If I were arguing in favour of mills (which I'm not BTW, again just curious), but since the shaper's table can rotate, couldn't I argue that using your shaper you would have to ensure the table is at precisely parallel to the cross travel? I have no idea how this is achieved in practice, but would imagine that if it weren't, instead of a concave surface from the mill, wouldn't a very slight taper be produced on the shaper? I can't imagine a simple stop would be sufficient if this degree of accuracy is being argued :?

In practice of course I just surface grind the piece when I need it flat, so it's all a bit hypothetical, but again just a process of understanding the advantages of the machine. I guess the fact that mills are produced by the thousands, yet as far as I'm aware few (no?) new shapers are manufactured; that's an answer in itself. But that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think it's a bit of a stretch to argue that shapers are faster than mills, but sometimes we're not as constrained by time pressures as a commercial operator, and the source of extremely cheap tooling is certainly a compelling argument.

Pete

[Dave J]

Pete,
A metric broach set bought locally will cost you a Douglas, and if you want a imperial set as well that will cost another Douglas.:D So they are cheap compared to other ways of doing things.

As for no one making them, there are still plenty making them up to over a meter stroke
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f1j00yhTQjdtFgaPD/Shaping-Machine.jpg
http://ssic2004.en.made-in-china.com/product/yHmQvdnjYJPz/China-Shaping-Machine.html

http://www.taiwantrade.com.tw/resources/member/6987/productcatalog/SH-36.jpg
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http://image.made-in-china.com/2f1j00dBeaSTDPCVcL/Shaping-Machine.jpg
http://amcomachine.en.made-in-china.com/product/doeJSmzPbIcL/China-Shaping-Machine.html

http://www.sugunaindustries.in/full-images/shaper-machine-842698.jpg
Shaper Machine,Metal Shaper Machine,Industrial Shaper Machine Manufacturers in Punjab,India (http://www.sugunaindustries.in/shaper-machine.htm)

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Shaper Machines - Metal Shaper machines and Gear Type Shaping Machine Manufacturer (http://www.indiamart.com/aaykay-machine-tools/shaper-machines.html)

http://images03.olx.in/ui/16/65/73/1318227360_262226273_1-Pictures-of--Metal-Shaper-Machine-Metalworking-Planer-Machine-Heavy-Light-CI-Castings.jpg
Metal Shaper Machine, Metalworking Planer Machine, Heavy & Light C.I. Castings - Ludhiana - Everything Else (http://ludhiana.olx.in/metal-shaper-machine-metalworking-planer-machine-heavy-light-c-i-castings-iid-262226273)

http://product-image.tradeindia.com/00329119/b/0/Shaping-Machine.jpg
Shaping Machine - Shaping Machine Exporter, Manufacturer, Supplier, Trading Company, Rajkot, India (http://siddhapuramachinetools.tradeindia.com/Exporters_Suppliers/Exporter10678.329119/Shaping-Machine.html)

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Heavy Duty Shaper Machine,Heavy Duty Shaping machine,Metal Shaper Machine Manufacturers in India (http://www.swarajmachinerymakers.com/heavy-duty-shaper-machine.htm)

There are plenty of others so they must be in demand, just not places we hear or know about. I am sure they would all not be making them if they where not selling.
If you type Metal shaper machine into google pictures you will see a lot more of them.

Dave

[Stustoys]

but since the shaper's table can rotate, couldn't I argue that using your shaper you would have to ensure the table is at precisely parallel to the cross travel?
No you couldn't as on most shapers the table cant rotate. But just like mills there are shapers that can rotate the table and still others that can rotate and tilt, although I've never seen one in the flesh. Besides you are now talking about two different things. 1. Machining a flat surface. 2. Machining two surfaces parallel to each other.
Of course now we are back to what the user is going to call "flat enough" and parallel enough"
Compared to a mill, shaper tooling is free. As is sharpening it.

Stuart

[Steamwhisperer]

Phil, yes I appreciate that, but as I said above, assuming a properly trammed mill. Personally I keep my mill head accurately trammed so there is zero setup time in that process. If I were arguing in favour of mills (which I'm not BTW, again just curious), but since the shaper's table can rotate, couldn't I argue that using your shaper you would have to ensure the table is at precisely parallel to the cross travel? I have no idea how this is achieved in practice, but would imagine that if it weren't, instead of a concave surface from the mill, wouldn't a very slight taper be produced on the shaper? I can't imagine a simple stop would be sufficient if this degree of accuracy is being argued :?

In practice of course I just surface grind the piece when I need it flat, so it's all a bit hypothetical, but again just a process of understanding the advantages of the machine. I guess the fact that mills are produced by the thousands, yet as far as I'm aware few (no?) new shapers are manufactured; that's an answer in itself. But that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think it's a bit of a stretch to argue that shapers are faster than mills, but sometimes we're not as constrained by time pressures as a commercial operator, and the source of extremely cheap tooling is certainly a compelling argument.

Pete

Hi Pete
No worries, lets assume a perfectly trammed mill using the water bath electrtically charged micrometer method where the bubble vial radius is effectively the radius of the earth. As near to perfect as we can get. Super high precision spindle bearings and a fly cutter that won't flex under any load. At these tolerances the room will have to be temperature controlled so as not to get out of spec...or buy a douglas 10". Same result.
If the table on a shaper is rotated, which sadly mine doesn't, you would still get a flat surface,on an angle, but flat. Unless you are talking about paralell. I think the argument here is the difference between machine types and the level of flatness to the machined surface. in the real world, If I dropped a lump of steel in the shaper vice the surface would end up flat but unless the mill had been set-up as above the lump of steel would end up flat but not as flat.
I doubt I would say that shapers are as fast as mills but for rapid metal removal will walk all over a mill.
Phew!! after all that, you should know that I can't wait until I get my mill, probably because of the bucket loads of tooling I have collected over the years for a mill hoping that one day there will be one sitting in my shed.

Phil

[Steamwhisperer]

Stuart,
you beat me to it

Phil

[PDW]

Phil, all very true, however the whole question was what could be done on a shaper that couldn't also be done on a mill? Looking through the list above, only internal splines would qualify from what I can see. Yes it's quite true that much cheaper and possibly bespoke tooling can be used, but offsetting that is the cost of the machine :) I can certainly see why Ray bought this and I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from it, if I had the room and was in the same position I would have done the same. However assuming a person already had a large mill I'm simply curious as to just how much use a large shaper would be in practice. It seems to me that vertical mills basically replaced the shaper for almost all operations. Throw in some broaches and that basically covers it from what I can see. Nevertheless many people do indeed have both machines, so I'm curious as to when they use the shaper.

Pete

Try cutting a rack on a milling machine. Once you exceed your Y axis travel you're buggered. I had to make a new 14DP rack for my Chipmaster (try buying 14DP rack too). To add insult to injury Colchester made the cross section an asymetric pentagon.

You can machine racks on a horizontal mill but need a special rack cutting attachment. Rare as hen's teeth, I've never seen one for sale in years of watching. You could do it on a vertical mill using a custom ground slot drill but the tooling cost is there. I've got a T&C grinder, still wouldn't bother making a 29 deg tapered slot drill with a 3mm tip width, nor expect it to last long if I did.

I can't find a pic of machining the rack on the shaper ATM but I rigged up a single axis DRO to get the tooth to tooth spacing. Attached is a pic of my milling its pentagonal shape. The tilting angle plate was mostly machined on the shaper with a final cut on the mill where I intended to use it. I still have all the patterns for that tilting plate, I made it to utilise the max X axis travel of my small horizontal mill.

Pete, a shaper is a handy tool for oddball jobs. There's little that can't be done on a mill, but there are some jobs still. There are also jobs where the tooling is a small fraction of the price of mill tooling so you can abuse hell out of it with no qualms (eg roughing down iron castings). Basically, though, as you obviously think, you can get by without one. It's got to be the second least used machine in my shop.

I think using a shaper to do internal splines & keyways is using the wrong tool for the job anyway.

PDW

[Steamwhisperer]

Big apologies Ray for hijacking your thread like this. Perhaps a new thread on using a shaper would be the order of the day.

Phil

[Dave J]

Big apologies Ray for hijacking your thread like this. Perhaps a new thread on using a shaper would be the order of the day.

Phil

I agree Phil and I was going to put an apology on the end of my post, but forgot to after chasing up all those links, so sorry Ray.:2tsup:

Pete,
Most of us here don't need a reason to get another tool/machine, we just do because it was there, or cheap, or saving from scrap, or we just wanted one. If I was to get rid of all the things in my shed that I don't use very often, I would have a lot more room, but when that odd job came along I would be kicking myself.

One thing that stands out for a shaper is you can cut a dovetail with a $5 piece of HSS any angle you want. Unlike a mill where you would have to buy the right cutter and baby it by removing as much material as possible and it still wont last that long. Also as others have said it will be a flatter and smoother surface.

Dave

[Abratool]

To all shaper lovers.....
I am more convinced than ever...I need a Shaper.
Although I have little use for a Shaper, have used them plenty of times in the past.
Apart from the nostalgia there is something very therapeutic about working a Shaping machine.
I like the way one can set up a piece of steel or casting so quickly, using a low price piece of HSS as a cutting tool that lasts for "Yonks" (a long time) set everything in motion, walk away & do other work, while it cuts merrily away.They just sound great whilst working :2tsup: Or one can just stand & watch the cutting process,mesmorised by it all.:rolleyes:
Yes, I think I need a Shaper...... & as Phil said a good counsellor.
regards
Bruce:)

[welder]

god all this talk of shapers makes me want to pull mine apart and restore it. but not right now i love mine but it never gets used partly as i needs a vee belt and the fact i am not the greates tool grinder :C

[RayG]

Big apologies Ray for hijacking your thread like this. Perhaps a new thread on using a shaper would be the order of the day.

Phil

Hi All, Been away from the computer doing a bit of on-site work, but I've been following the thread using the phone.. must figure out how to post a reply one of these days..

Anyway, don't worry about the hijack, I don't see it as off-topic, so it's not a hijack in fact I think it's precisely on topic.. why the hell did I buy another machine... now I know... Shapers are not only cool, mesmerizing to watch, but amazingly versatile.

I'm thinking that one of the shaper projects I should tackle first is a shaper vise.. :)

As Dave said "Most of us here don't need a reason to get another tool/machine" pretty much sums it up for me... :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[Steamwhisperer]

Anyway, don't worry about the hijack, I don't see it as off-topic, so it's not a hijack in fact I think it's precisely on topic.. why the hell did I buy another machine... now I know... Shapers are not only cool, mesmerizing to watch, but amazingly versatile.



Hi Ray,
cool, I was waiting to hear from you before starting another thread. I remembered another accessory for the shaper. The tool head is removed with the clapper box and a grinding head is put on in its place to create a surface grinder.
They are great for making 'V' blocks as well. I know this as I made a set when I was at trade school on the shaper.

Phil

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
First job for your shaper should be rouging that angle plate of yours(assuming you haven't started the second face already). Although maybe some practice on something cheaper wouldnt be such a bad idea.

Damn Ray...... does it have a swivel table!!!!!!!!!
The pdf shows tee slots, yours doesnt appear to have those. The page for the swivel table doesnt show tee slots!

Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Ray,
First job for your shaper should be rouging that angle plate of yours(assuming you haven't started the second face already). Although maybe some practice on something cheaper wouldnt be such a bad idea.

Damn Ray...... does it have a swivel table!!!!!!!!!
The pdf shows tee slots, yours doesnt appear to have those. The page for the swivel table doesnt show tee slots!

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Nope, it's bereft of swivelling..... sadly... But looks like they had some nifty attachments available..

I've got a spare milling vise that I'll setup later in the week, and by the weekend I should be ready to try a few cuts.. once I get the electricals sorted, I want to keep the kick e-stop.

Also need to do a bit of research on cutters for shaping.. (maybe Phil can cover that in his upcoming shaper thread? )


Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
How is the table held to the carriage(?) Mine has 4 Tee bolts in two tee slots, the table had a piece that press fits into the top tee slot. I think I might be able to mount the angle plate I picked up today to clean it up(if needed).

Do you have a tool holder that will fit, or are you going to make one or buy some real mans HSS so you don't need a holder?

Stuart

[Dave J]

Hi Phil,
You would not have been a member here when we spoke about a grinder on a shaper a while back, RC posted a picture of one with a over head line shaft running it. It was either that picture or I read it somewhere else that companies used to put a grinder on a shaper once they where too worn for shaper work. I suppose once the table was ground to suit the ram wear it would have been fine.

I tried one on my Douglas not so long ago and got reasonable finishes, but nothing to right home about, LOL It was only a Taiwanese bench grinder and I don't think the bearings where up to it, because no matter what I tried it would get small wave like appearance to it, but it did that job at least. I plan on making a dedicated spindle up for it and use it for a tool post grinder on the lathe as well.
This is the reason my Douglas is pulled down at the moment, because grit went everywhere, so anyone thinking about it, cover everything up really good.

Ray,
I am sure I posted up a link to shaper tools a while back, I will try to chase them up for you but they are very similar to HSS lathe tools needing a slight radius or you will get lines in the work.

Once you get the hang of it and getting a good finish you can check the table to make sure it is true to the ram by running a dial indicator over it both ways, and if not take a light cut across it to true it up.
Before taking any cuts on the table, make sure all the ways are clean, even if you need to dismantle them to clean and check as you only want to do it once. It also looks like your table is 2 piece like mine, so take them apart and make sure both mating surfaces are clean and free of rust which could throw things out. If you do end up taking a cut do it with the outboard support bolts loose, that way when it's not used it will be true. If your only doing a light cut it's not needed unless the job is heavy.
I only out lined all this because you may find after cleaning everything, the table might be still as true as it left the factory, and you cant put metal back on once it's removed.

My 24 inch Alba has a fixed table, but the little 10 inch Douglas has a swiveling one. I wish I had a shaper with a universal table, they tilt both ways.
From what I have seen, shapers with a fixed table are for heavy work, where a universal table is meant for lighter cuts and often classified as a tool room shaper.

Your table support gib is like mine and I think it's the best idea for a support. You only need to loosen the support bolts, raise the table then lock the bolts back up, no trying to align the support to the saddle way like I need to with the Douglas.

Dave

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Dave,
The attachment I saw was an accessory to the shaper which I will try and locate.
Ray, I have nearly a gigabyte of info on tools and uses of the shaper so I will put it on a stick and come for a ride to see you rather than email it all or if you have a postal address you could PM me that I could send it to.
There is pretty much all you need to know in this info.

Phil

[Pete F]

Thanks guys, sorry I was a bit busy to reply earlier. Dave, check out the country of origin of most of the machines you posted. I'll say no more :wink: I'm not sure a set of quality broaches bought locally is a fair comparison to a clapped out used or even a new Indian shaper, but I definitely get your point. As far as buying something simply because it's "cheap" I'm afraid I don't follow that philosophy at all. Even if something is free, I don't consider it at all "cheap" if I have no use for it. I have no need to clutter my life with useless crap simply because it didn't cost much ... well unless of course it's jousting sticks, I'll always make an exception for jousting sticks :p I guess I'd rather have less but really top quality "things" that I use constantly rather than surrounding myself with inexpensive crap, but hey that's just me and I'm not suggesting that's right or wrong, and it's why I posted the questions here. I've been toying with the idea of a shaper for ages, there's something magical about their operation, but I just can't convince myself it will get much use. Having said all that, if a really good one comes along at the right price it will probably get my name on it, so don't feel as if I'm bagging the machines, instead more a case of very public pondering :D Peter, you've been to my place, so I'm sure you appreciate the conundrum. Since then I now have a second lathe and still want to keep enough room for a decent size mill! I'm still looking for a good T&C grinder for the grinding area, and eventually hope to get a small CNC mill in there, but to throw a shaper in the works too .... dunno?

Yes sorry guys I was interchanging flat and parallel and of course they're quite different. I was just going through a mental exercise of making something. Dave made a good point I'd forgotten about also, that is, like grinders, shapers can true up their own work surface, which I'm sure could further contribute to accuracy.

Pete

[Bryan]

Ray, here's a couple of general links.

Metal Shaper FAQ (http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/shaper_faq.html)

Shaper Book Page (http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/shaper_book_page.htm)

I have several of those books saved but they're eluding me. In short, shaper tools need less clearance than lathe tools, because they don't feed during the cut. For steel, plenty of side rake helps. And you'll need a round nosed shear tool for finishing.

[Bryan]

Pete, you can certainly get by without a shaper. Lots of people do. And if space is tight you're right to be dubious. I'm in the opposite position - I have a shaper and no mill. I'd like to have a mill just because I love machines, but for the few times I really need it, the cost can't be justified. My shaper cost me about $650. Probably a grand by the time I got it home. I did then spend a bit on it, but ongoing costs are virtually nil. You can't even buy a round column mill-drill for a grand, let alone tooling. There's not much you can't do on a shaper. About the only thing is pocketing. You need at least two open sides.

[Pete F]

Bryan, yes I think I remember your shaper, quite a large one IIRC. Oh yes logically I have absolutely no use at all for a shaper, but they are just so cool to watch it's hard to resist. :D

[RayG]

I think using a shaper to do internal splines & keyways is using the wrong tool for the job anyway.

PDW

Ok, I'll bite... seeing the bait dangling there was too much :)
I thought that a shaper was the only machine for inside keyways and inside gears.

Thanks all for the replies.

Stuart,
I'm doing the scotch brite and orbital sander trick on the flat surfaces around the table, so I'll take a few better pictures of the setup.

Dave,
Thanks for the tips on the table setup, I'm not in a hurry to remachine the table..
I'm not sure I've seen the swivel table set up on the Douglas, is it back together yet?


Phil,
I'll PM you my postal address, but I wouldn't like that to stop you from coming over for a visit.. you'd be most welcome. :2tsup:

Bryan,
Thanks for those links, I've started downloading some books, "The Shaping Machine" by Ian Bradley looks like a good starting point for some background reading. Beats reading swedish..:)

Pete,
I think you and I are on the same page, I don't NEED a shaper, I just WANTED one without any real logical thought processes to back it up. Ask me again in a few years and I'm willing to bet that the shaper will be getting plenty of work.

Regards
Ray

[Dave J]

Hi Ray,
The Douglas is only a very basic set up, no degree marking or anything like that.

This one is from the for sale section, you can see the extended head bolt hanging out the front and the table, you undo this to get it to swivel. You can also see the alignment pin on the side at the lower back. There is a hole that has been reamed half/half between the table and saddle for setting it back strait again.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f223/111689d1248332553-douglas-shaper-shaper-2.jpg
On shapers, the table can also be completely removed for jobs that need to be bolted directly to the saddle. Like a angle plate could be bolted directly to it for finishing.

Dave

[Steamwhisperer]

Ok, I'll bite... seeing the bait dangling there was too much :)
I thought that a shaper was the only machine for inside keyways and inside gears.

Phil,
I'll PM you my postal address, but I wouldn't like that to stop you from coming over for a visit.. you'd be most welcome. :2tsup:


Hi ray,
Shapers are actually the perfect machine for internal keys etc.

I might post the stick to you so you can start reading then pop in for a visit not long after. Thanks for the invite. Much appreciated.

Phil

[RayG]

Hi All,

Ok, now I'm confused, not for the first (or last) time either.. Dave's picture of the Douglass had me running back to the shed for another look... Thanks Dave.

Having replied to Stuart that the table doesn't swivel, now I partially understand how it works, there are three bolts at the back inside the table, that looks like you could remove the front support and swivel the table. Eagle eyed Stuart wins again..:2tsup:

Here are some pictures that might help..unravel the question.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1165.JPG
Inside the table, taken from the front, that pin in the middle is the locking pin by the look of it.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1166.JPG
The left hand side of the table, looking from the front

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1167.JPG

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Varnamo/DSCN1168.JPG
The right hand side, that V groove would be handy for holding shafts I imagine.

The only surface that's had a decent clean up so far is the top, which was Lanox and scotchbrite pads on a random orbital sander, it just scrubs the rust off the surface without removing any metal.

So over to Stuart, does it swivel?

Regards
Ray
PS. Thanks Phil, as you might have figured out, I'm on a pretty steep learning curve.

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
I'd bet a my shaper that yours swivels ;)
At a guess there will be a circular Tee slot under the three large bolts and middle small bolt at the top is the alignment somehow.

Maybe PDW has a slotter?

Hi Bryan,
I think you can cut a pocket with a shaper but you'd need(?) to drill a hole each end.
Stuart

[Dave J]

Hi Ray,
I would grab the engine crane and start working on taking the table off. This way you will be able to clean the surfaces and see exactly how it all works. If there are T slots behind their, they will probably have surface rust in them.

Dave