Hand planes, time to bite the bullet.

[Rattrap]

Hi all,
Well the time has come for me to actually get 'roundtuit' & buy myself some hand planes & with the sale of my cheval mirror plus some xmas pressie money its time to do the deed.
I've had my eye on the woodriver brand of planes for a little while & after a bit of reading they seam like quite reasonable planes. I am particularly interested in the 'ultimate cabinetmakers kit' of 3 planes on offer, here the link;
Jim Davey Planes & Sharpening - eShop - Sales - WoodRiver Planes - 055-400-90 ..... WoodRiver Ultimate Cabinet Maker's Kit (http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpening.com/EShop/Product.aspx?EshopID=8607ccbf-fea8-48e0-a1d5-90600a129f1a&CategoryID=0cd92958-387a-425a-91b2-8bb0bf60b25e&ProductID=40aeba87-277f-4186-9f82-40e94812e59e)

I would just like to hear from some of you guys as to the quality of these planes, in your respected opinions, as well as the 3 planes listed as a good all round selection.

I would like to point out that i am primarily a power tool guy, i am NOT looking to become a dedicated 'darksider'

Secondly i would love some recommendations on that equally important topic of sharpening. After a fair bit of reading & general confusion on my part i have finally decided to go with sharpening stones so i would dearly like a list of grit stones i would need. There are so many different brands of stones all with differing grits & grit ratings that its a bit confusing for me.
I am looking at using a slab of stone to flatten the sharpening stones & a Veritas honing guide MK II.

Cheers, Ratty.

[groeneaj]

Iv'e just recently got into hand planes over the last 18 months. I have found that with sharpening there are SO many different methods and techniques, you just got to find one that works for you. I have David Charlesworths DVD on sharpening and follow that along with Rob Cosmans technique and it seems to work.

My first bench plane was a Veritas low angle jack plane and I found it to be quite versatile. I have read excellent reviews on the new woodriver range and i'm sure you can't go wrong with them.

Good luck
Andy

[codysheridan1]

I reckon this would do well for a starter kit. I just got the 1200 and 6000 stones as well as the MkII honing jig and now have my chisels from blunt too sharp in an afternoon... or two(they were really bad). I also used a piece of glass and some 80 grit wet and dry to get the correct angle on them. I used the same piece of glass with some 240 W/D paper to keep the stone nice and flat.

Japanese Waterstone - 300 grit : CARBA-TEC (http://www.carbatec.com.au/japanese-waterstone-300-grit_c21461)

Japanese Waterstone - 1200 grit : CARBA-TEC (http://www.carbatec.com.au/japanese-waterstone-1200-grit_c21463)

Japanese Waterstone - 6000 grit : CARBA-TEC (http://www.carbatec.com.au/japanese-waterstone-6000-grit_c21465)

Veritas® MKII Honing Guide : CARBA-TEC (http://www.carbatec.com.au/veritas-mkii-honing-guide_c19163)

[Rattrap]

Thanks so much guys, that just the sort of info i was after. :2tsup:

[Scribbly Gum]

If the planes are from Jim then they will be ready to go out of the box.
I haven't seen a Woodriver plane - only a Quangsheng.
I have no idea if these are the same planes re-badged, but the plane I saw was very well made. One thing that puzzled me was that it was based on the Stanley Bedrock design and had all of those features bar one.
That was that the frog and machined base in the body of the plane, didn't have the machined ways and frog keyed to the ways that the Bedrock has.
Seemed strange to me.
I think that this is an important feature of the design - and it would be interesting to see if the Woodriver has it.
A quick question to Jim would resolve it.
Cheers
SG

[FenceFurniture]

G'day Ratty

You could do worse than to read this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/diamond-lapping-film-145873/) on diamond lapping film. Looks really cheap and highly effective.

Cheers, FF

[groeneaj]

I recently purchaed some 3M lapping film from these guys - Scary Sharpening (http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Scary_Sharpening.html) . I would have got them locally but the sandpaper man doesn't have the course sheets.

I went out and got 7 glass plates (200x100x10mm) and stuck the sheets to them. I plan to use them for rehabbing chisels (lapping) and experimenting with sharpening on them. All up the sheets cost $25 delivered from the UK in a week. They had a special so it might be a little bit more now, but still very cheap!
I also have shapton stones for my new irons and find them excellent. As for flattening the stones, I went out and bought a DMT course diamond plate, but the thing was NOT flat so I started using wet and dry stuck down to glass. It's a cheap alternative that works, however i'm going to invest in a DMT lapping plate very soon. It should last me many years.

Andy

[orraloon]

I have not used a wood river but have been told they are made by quengshang and I have a block plane by them. It works really well. That set should do most of your general planeing.
As for sharpening, well there are so many options you just have to find something that works for you. I have stuck with the 2 sided oilstone I got back about 1975. I have a seppach wet grinder but only use that for serious metal removal as in rehabbing old tools and some turning tools.
Regards
John

[Rattrap]

Those diamond lapping sheets look quite interesting but this is where things get confusing for me with so many options & opinions. Thats why i've decided to stay with the stones.
Scribbly, sadly i don't even know what you are talking about with regards to the issue with the frog! :doh:
I have a sort of idea what you mean but with no experience with hand planes i can't picture the relevance/ importance. In regards to the Quangsheng brand, from a bit of research on the subject of the woodriver planes my understanding is that the woodriver brand are 'similar' to the Quangsheng but made to better specifications & quality & with a few small differences, enough to make the woodriver over all a better quality plane.

[Mutley]

Have a look on youtube, They have a few videos on sharpening planes and chisels. Also have a look in your local library not much help to you sorry, but in my local library they have a great book on hand planes and sharpening. Hope this helps ? :2tsup:

[Scribbly Gum]

OK, I have just watched the utube video of Rob Cosman with the V3 version of Woodriver.
The frog and plane base are completely flat without the machined ways.
Here is a piccie of the frog and plane base:

[FenceFurniture]

Ratty, this is my shopping list, subject to debate from anyone and some answers from Schtoo. I have come to these conclusions after significant input from rsser (thanks Ern). I was kinda hoping that a set of 5 diamond plates would do the job, but have gone away from that because of flatness concerns, plus the plates are nowhere near big enough for plane soles (esp a #6 or #7 jointer). Ern recommends 400x400mm for a glass/granite sheet with a tough plastic cover on top, sheet of MDF underneath . Actually, I reckon skip the MDF and put a non-slip rubber sheet under the glass, because you'd need that under the MDF anyway.

Already on hand:
Tormek T7 (second hand, and from an impeccable heritage:U)

Processess to be covered:
Bench Chisels (rebevel, flatten & sharpen)
Plane soles (flatten)
Plane blades (sharpen)
Colt MaxiCuts (sharpen)
Kitchen knives (sharpen)
as well as other sundry items such as Marking Knives, scalpels etc (and these won't have anything specific purchased for them).

The T7 primarily serves as a bevel setter, regrinder, garden tool sharpener. Some use in flattening backs.

For flattening plane soles and chisels:
Piece of float glass (or granite sheet in my case) with SiC grits #90-600 $24.50 from Lee Valley + glass/granite ($50-70??)

For flattening stones:
Atoma #400 Economy Diamond plate (no base) $87.66 Tools From Japan

For sharpening:
Sigma Power Select II #1000 $58.42
Sigma Power Select II #3000 $63.74
Sigma Power Select II #6000 $82.35
Base for Stones with centre support $26.52 all from TFJ
Set of Diamond Lapping Sheets $22.50 from LV
Veritas Mk II honing jig & Camber roller $88.40 from LV

Total $454.09 + freight

NOTES:
1. I'm thinking that I don't need a #140 Diamond plate as the Sigma PS II stones are not supposed to dish much. If nec, add a #140 later. If it was just for flattening stones I'd go #140, but it will no doubt get used for steel as well and I wouldn't want to jump 140-1000.

2. Sigma Power Select II stones selected because they'll do all steels including HSS M2, and I don't want to have to acquire a different set of stones for a particular steel type.

3. I may acquire the 10000 stone later if I really think I'd like it. In fact I'm only getting the 6000 because of kitchen knives, so that could be deleted for a workshop I reckon (esp with the Diamond film on hand).

4. There is a holder available with Stainless rails, but it's double the price at $53.10. I have to wonder how much use the S/S is. Do I really care about a bit of surface rust on the rails? I doubt it. I may consider a second holder so that I can have the 1k and 3k stones both "at the ready".

5. The Diamond Lapping film is primarily for sticking onto some shop-made paddles for sharpening the Maxicuts. I can cut a 20mm strip off the side for that, and then still have enough width left for blade touch ups without having to go to the stones.


I haven't arrived at a shopping list of planes yet (I'm where you are). Currently I have a hideous third millenium Stanley #5 with huge backlash (to the point where the plane is pretty useless actually). The list might end up looking like:


An LA BU block plane (Veritas NX60 or LN Bronze)
HNT Gordon Smoother (coz I just gotta have one of his)
Veritas LA BU Jack with 2-3 blades (one heavily cambered for scrubbing, one higher angle bevel for Aussie woods, and a normal one for softwoods)
A #6 or #7 for jointing. Veritas or LN?? I'm hearing QC concerns about LN, and given that they are significantly more $$, perhaps Veritas. Then again Veritas stop at #6, and a #7 is four inches longer, so it may well be an LN.

With the various spare blades, screwdriver, fence (for edges) that's about $1700 plus freight. That'll do to see if the plane bug bites, and should cover a fair few operations.



Cheers, FF

[Rattrap]

Nice shopping list FF, more than i'm really wanting to spend on sharpening at this stage tho. Cody's list stones sounds more like what would suit me tho.
I've oggled over the Veritas, HNT & LN planes for ages but the price is a bit of a push. If i knew more about planes i could probably talk myself into digging deeper in the wallet. These seem a good middle road.
Thanks for the pic Scribbly, i think i see what you mean, what is the issue that you are pointing out? I just watched the utube again & it seamed like a good thing that theres a lot of flat surface between the frog & plane base?? :?

[Scribbly Gum]

Thanks for the pic Scribbly, i think i see what you mean, what is the issue that you are pointing out? I just watched the utube again & it seamed like a good thing that theres a lot of flat surface between the frog & plane base?? :?
The beauty of the Bedrock design - with the edges of the frog seating precisely in the machined ways in the base was so that the frog can only move forward or back, and has no sideways movement. Sideways movement may skew the frog instead of it moving precisely forward and back. This often happens on some other Stanley Bailey designs.
Now it may be that the Woodriver frog sits tight in the bed with no sideways movement - but it doesn't appear to have the same design as the original Bedrock planes.
It would be worth clarifying with Jim Davey if the Woodriver design has this feature or not.
Cheers
SG

[Rattrap]

Thanks Scribbly, i can understand what you mean now. Is the issue with the frog skewing difficult to allow for, as in, is it easy to correct if you know it may be a problem?

[Scribbly Gum]

Thanks Scribbly, i can understand what you mean now. Is the issue with the frog skewing difficult to allow for, as in, is it easy to correct if you know it may be a problem?
Yes, it is easy enough to adjust the frog whenever it is loosened so that it sits square to mouth. This is the case with lots of the older Stanley Bailey regular bench planes and the others that copied it. It can be a fiddly procedure though - needing to be repeated every time the frog is moved.
The point of designing the bedrock frog was to avoid the necessity of having to check this each time - Lie Nielsen copied it of course.
It would be highly desirable to have this feature on the Woodriver if it isn't there in some other form - slightly different perhaps from the original. It would be good to find out before buying the plane.
Cheers
SG

[snafuspyramid]

How about:

King 1000 stone
King 6000 stone (together $110 including shipping from Stu).

Piece of thick glass - for flattening waterstones and lapping plane irons, chisels and the plane soles - $0 if you find a nice glazier.

Silicon carbide grit (to use on the glass) - $5 plus postage from online lapidary supplier, e.g. gemcuts.com.au

Piece of scrap MDF, or hardwood, or cereal packet (for strop): $0

Veritas honing compound (for strop): $12.


There are certainly faster, less messy sharpening methods, but they're also much more expensive (including sandpaper on glass, eugh).

You might want to make the glass last longer by using overhead projection sheets. Good ones cost $20 at Officeworks.

Total: around $130, $150 if you use the overhead sheets.

Also, those diamond films look excellent and cheap.

Whatever you do, don't try the SiC on glass route. It's a false economy.

[Rattrap]

Just finished sending Jim Davey an query as you suggested Scribbly, i'll let you know when he replys.
Eddie thats very much how i am leaning. Couple of grades of stone & a sheet of glass, nice n simple.

[FenceFurniture]

Silicon carbide grit (to use on the glass) - $5 plus postage from online lapidary supplier, e.g. gemcuts.com.au

Whatever you do, don't try the SiC on glass route. It's a false economy.

Eddie, I'm a bit confused, as these two statements seem to contradict each other. Could you clarify please? Like the suggestion of lapidary supplier for the grits.

One thing I don't understand is if SiC grits eat steel, what happens the plastic sheets? Surely they couldn't last very long?

Edit: see here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/silicon-carbide-sic-grits-anyone-146126/#post1425715) if you want to share some SiC grits from Gemcuts. Thanks Snafu!

[snafuspyramid]

Sorry, I meant to say "don't use SiC sandpaper sheets on glass".

As for your other question, because the plastic sheets are soft relative to the abrasive and the waterstones, the silicon carbide grains bed into the surface, and don't roll around too much - hence not cutting up the surface very much.

The sheets will only tear if you use very course grits, or if there's something underneath them.

If you're going to use courser grit stones, I'd recommend finding a small piece of sacrificial glass and using that. It still ought to last around six months before it goes out of flat, because it tends to wear down extremely slowly, and quite evenly.

With that said, I'm not really in a position to give sweeping recommendations; I'm a beginner, and I'm really just describing the sharpening setup I've put together over the last six months. There are lots and lots of different ways to get to the same place, but this seems like the cheapest.

[Rattrap]

Just got a reply from Jim Davey, very nice of him to reply on a weekend!

"
Thank you for your enquiry.

It is true that the Frog is not “keyed” to the Base as in the original Stanley Bed Rock planes – there is a little movement but it is restricted by the Frog Adjuster Tab and Screw.
Before despatching any of the WR Bench Planes, I check them, face and hone the Blade and set the Mouth at 10 thou. (0.010”). When doing this I don’t find the movement to be a problem, I just make sure I check both sides with the Feeler gauge and tweak if necessary.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions."

[ian]

Hi Rattrap
that three plane set from Jim Davey is a pretty good starter set. with the bonus that Jim will set them up to work straight out of the box, so when it comes time for sharpening you will know what you are aiming for.

Down the track you would probably add a low angle Jack -- for use with a shooting board or for difficult grain. I don't think Wood River make one, so you would be looking at either the Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen. Derek raves about the Lee Valley.

Sharpening has been covered pretty extensively, and can such big bickies -- but you won't go far wrong if you work on having a coarse, a medium and a fine stone. Besides you need to be able to sharpen your chisels.

another benefit of the bed rock frog that Scribbly didn't mention is you can adjust the frog without removing the blade

[Claw Hama]

I have both the LN and LV LAJs. I like them both but they are very different planes. I couldn't make my mind up for a while which one I liked the most so just kept using them until it became clear. For general purpose flattening and smoothing I always go for the LN, so rather than sell my LV I have it set up with the 50deg blade permanently. It is bigger and heavier so with the 50deg blade I use it on harder cranky stuff. I love the LN.

[Vann]

I don't think Wood River make one...I don't think Wood River make any planes - they get Quangsheng to make them to their specification. But I'm being pedantic...:B

I believe Workshop Heaven (in UK) now have a Quangsheng LA Jack, so I'd imagine Wood River will have one (or one in the pipeline).


...you won't go far wrong if you work on having a coarse, a medium and a fine stone.Agreed. I have 1200g and 6000g waterstones for medium and fine (8000g cost 3 times as much as the 6000g, so I settled for the 6000g). I've heard that waterstones below 1000g dish far too fast, so I've keep my old oilstones for coarse for the time being, but I'll move to something faster cutting one day.

Cheers, Vann.

[Rattrap]

Well the bullet has been bit, least as far as the set of 3 Woodriver planes go.:2tsup:
I'm not quite settled on a brand of stone yet, but defiantly either 2 or 3 stones plus a flattening surface.

[groeneaj]

You can have my king 1200 and 4000 (it might be 6000 but I can't tell the difference) if you like. PM if interested.

Andy