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MRNey
19th January 2012, 04:20 PM
So I have been thinking about a Scheppach TiGer 2000 wet stone grinder for sharpening my gouges.

Does anyone have any experience with these? Are there jigs available for them? Are they easy to use?

I'm currently using a standard white wheel on the bench grinder or a standard stone, (I'm a butcher by trade) and am having no problems with most of my tools, but my turning gouges are giving me the heebie jeebies.

Any advice or opinions are welcomed will be taken thankfully.

turnerted
19th January 2012, 04:52 PM
Hi
A Woodcut Tru-Grind sharpening jig would get you going a lot cheaper . If you are handy with metal fabrication ,there are many DIY jigs described too .
Ted

cookie48
19th January 2012, 08:19 PM
MRNey
I have one and do not use it. Mainly because the wheel supplied did not stay central on the shaft. That is the wheel turns with a big bump in it. I have tried packing on the shaft and informing the company I got it from. Both turned out to a waste of oxygen. So mine sits in a cupboard collecting dust.
Cookie

BamBam53
19th January 2012, 09:31 PM
As Ted said, the Woodcut Tru-grind jig is great for gouges.

I bought myself one for Christmas and made to set of spacers as shown on the South Auckland Woodturners Guild web site (http://www.sawg.org.nz/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Tru-Grind-Spacers1.pdf).

Scott
19th January 2012, 09:48 PM
Thanks Cookie and others, you've saved me from a bad purchase :)

MRNey
19th January 2012, 11:13 PM
Hello and thanks for the feedback, I think I might pass if that's the case.

The Tru-Grind sharpening jig, looks like it might be a goer then.

Thanks for your help.

Marshall

NeilS
20th January 2012, 07:42 AM
hi
a woodcut tru-grind sharpening jig would get you going a lot cheaper . If you are handy with metal fabrication ,there are many diy jigs described too .
Ted

+1

Robson Valley
21st January 2012, 03:40 AM
I don't do lathe work but I can and do sharpen the tools for some who do. I do the entire process by hand on stones. That's just me.

First thing you need is a machinist"s protractor, the kind used to measure the tip angles on drill bits. Works like a hot dang for gouges. You will never build or set a jig until you know the angle you need. Lathe tools have angles all over the place. Good wood carving gouges (eg Pfeil, Ashley, Sorbey) are commonly 20 degrees.

Second thing you need is a permanent black felt marker. Scribble all over the bevel. That way you can see at a glance how much and where the metal is coming off.

Third thing that I made and use is a set of silly wooden triangles which show me 10, 15, 20, 30 degrees and so on. I match my posture and grip on the tool to be sharpened to the appropriate angle.

I recommend some sort of power sharpening gear but I'm not the person to ask. My method is slow and tedious but it works. Must be a personality flaw!

Lee Valley is selling pairs of NAREX skew chisels (12mm) for $24.50/pr CrMn steel Rc59. 25 degree bevel takes too much pressure to push the wood open for carving.
Three grades of oil stones, 1000, 4000 grit water stones and a good honing on a strop and I have a fantastic pair of carving skews now at 20 degrees bevel. Good enough that I've just ordered a second pair = turn them onto stop chisels with double bevels.

NeilS
21st January 2012, 10:25 AM
I don't do lathe work but I can and do sharpen the tools for some who do. I do the entire process by hand on stones. That's just me.



I sharpen my kitchen knives (Japanese hand-forged) by hand on waterstones; the edge keeps cutting for weeks.

I sharpen my workshop knives (mostly Japanese hand-forged) by hand on waterstones; the edge keeps cutting for hours.

I sharpen my turning tools (mostly HSS) by machine*; the edge keeps cutting for minutes.

It would be nice to have someone come over to sharpen my tools for me as I turned. Then I wouldn't have to stop turning; just hand the blunt tool to the sharpener in exchange for a sharp one...:U:U:U

* but do hand polish flutes and raise scraper burrs by hand.

rustynail
21st January 2012, 10:44 AM
A bit like the Expert in a shearing shed.

NeilS
21st January 2012, 10:57 AM
A bit like the Expert in a shearing shed.

That's the type of thing I had in mind, an Expert for a stand of one...:D

Tim the Timber Turner
21st January 2012, 07:17 PM
It would be nice to have someone come over to sharpen my tools for me as I turned. Then I wouldn't have to stop turning; just hand the blunt tool to the sharpener in exchange for a sharp one...:U:U:U

Hey Neil

I'll volunteer to do that.

Just hand over the key to your wine cellar and I shapen all the tools you need.

Mind you after the first couple (of reds) you might regret making making a wish like that.

How about this Sunday?

Cheers

Tim:)

Grommett
21st January 2012, 08:48 PM
I thought TL had that gig with

RETIRED
21st January 2012, 09:00 PM
She has.:cool:

KenW
22nd January 2012, 10:21 PM
Hi
A Woodcut Tru-Grind sharpening jig would get you going a lot cheaper . If you are handy with metal fabrication ,there are many DIY jigs described too .
Ted
If you buy a True-Grind jig be very careful when you are using it, they bite. Ask Guillio.
A Scheppach will get you started. Their jigs are a bit ordinary, try to buy Tormek jigs.
Tormek jigs fit the Scheppach.

NeilS
23rd January 2012, 11:10 AM
Just hand over the key to your wine cellar and I sharpen all the tools you need.



Now Tim - you know full well that both the turning and sharpening would cease before long and the cellar soon be the worse for it...:D

rsser
23rd January 2012, 12:48 PM
We could argue the merits of SA vs. Vic reds too ;-)

MrNey, the QC on the Sheppachs is variable so if you opt for one, you must go down and get the retailer to run one for you so you can check wheel run-out and any ugly noises from the bearings etc.

Their jigs are adequate but Tormek's are higher quality and come with good instructions.

As Neil has hinted, with gouges there's no point in getting a nicely ground bevel if you don't clean up any milling marks in the flute. And that's not a trivial task.

Doing this is worth it to get easier and cleaner cutting and a longer lasting edge. But most turners don't get a finish just off the tool and have to sand out tool marks, so start with a jig in front of a bench grinder and graduate to edge refining when your tool control starts to be good enough to leave a finished surface on the wood.

jchappo
23rd January 2012, 01:36 PM
If you buy a True-Grind jig be very careful when you are using it, they bite. Ask Guillio.
A Scheppach will get you started. Their jigs are a bit ordinary, try to buy Tormek jigs.
Tormek jigs fit the Scheppach.

Perhaps you could elaborate on the biting.

Tim the Timber Turner
23rd January 2012, 01:54 PM
We could argue the merits of SA vs. Vic reds too ;-)



Sorry Ern. :roll:

No contest.:no:

Just ask Neil.

Cheers

Tim:)

rsser
23rd January 2012, 02:26 PM
Yeah, I did try to persuade him with a Yarra Valley Cabernet but failed.

But back on topic:

Jim implied in the Tormek thread that folk should at least have tried the alternative that they dismiss. So Ken, what's your experience with bench grinders and jigs?

RETIRED
23rd January 2012, 02:35 PM
Perhaps you could elaborate on the biting.As with all machines grinders can bite.

Guilio was sharpening a gouge for someone and not paying attention to the machine or the job he was doing.

He lifted the jig out of the socket and the tool slid off the wheel. His hand (still holding the jig) went into the wheel and caused massive lacerations to his fingers.

Result of that was an operation to repair tendons and about 6-8 weeks of his hand in a splint.

Those who attended Melbourne Working with Wood show would have seen his hand and another Forumite doing his sanding for him.

The lesson learnt is never, ever, not no how take your eyes off the tool and machine.:cool:

KenW
23rd January 2012, 05:23 PM
As with all machines grinders can bite.

Guilio was sharpening a gouge for someone and not paying attention to the machine or the job he was doing.

He lifted the jig out of the socket and the tool slid off the wheel. His hand (still holding the jig) went into the wheel and caused massive lacerations to his fingers.

Result of that was an operation to repair tendons and about 6-8 weeks of his hand in a splint.

Those who attended Melbourne Working with Wood show would have seen his hand and another Forumite doing his sanding for him.

The lesson learnt is never, ever, not no how take your eyes off the tool and machine.:cool:
The True-Grind jig in question was an early model. There have been changes made to improve the jig location. As said with your hands so close to a grinding wheel pay attention. The other choice is to buy a slow turning water grinder. If you slip with one of these you usually just get a paper cut.

MRNey
23rd January 2012, 06:12 PM
Hmm, some things to consider, thanks for your help everyone.

I have still not deceided what I am going to do. I live in FNQ and can't find a retailer any more local than 350 kms away who sells scheppach's so am a little wary of buying one.

jchappo
23rd January 2012, 08:28 PM
The True-Grind jig in question was an early model. There have been changes made to improve the jig location. As said with your hands so close to a grinding wheel pay attention. The other choice is to buy a slow turning water grinder. If you slip with one of these you usually just get a paper cut.

Reading 's explanation of the incident, I think it is unfair to blame it on the TrueGrind.
Definitely operator error. The injury would probably have occurred with any jig.
Granted, the potential for injury is probably greater with a fast dry grinder, but you originally put the blame on the jig, not the grinder!

KenW
23rd January 2012, 09:06 PM
Reading 's explanation of the incident, I think it is unfair to blame it on the TrueGrind.
Definitely operator error. The injury would probably have occurred with any jig.
Granted, the potential for injury is probably greater with a fast dry grinder, but you originally put the blame on the jig, not the grinder!
There are a number of jigs that don't mount this way and would never slip. If it is possible for a jig to slip in the way this particular one did I don't think you can put all of the blame down to operator error. The jig has been improved, I think it should be made completely fool proof. I don't think it would be that hard to make the jig safer. Shouldn't all tools be made as safe as possible? especially when your hand is so close to a lethal weapon.

jchappo
24th January 2012, 07:31 AM
From 's post:

"Not paying attention ..."
"He lifted the jig out of the socket ..."

Enough said!

Jim Carroll
24th January 2012, 08:55 AM
From 's post:

"Not paying attention ..."
"He lifted the jig out of the socket ..."

Enough said!

Must clarify this a little bit.

It wasn't lifted as much as the tool went past the edge of the wheel, the jig lost its pivot point and the rest as they say is history.

Just to clarify a couple of other things with this setup.

For Guilio and those that know him he is not the tallest person around, the grinder was set up too high for practicle purposes, the Tru grind jig they were using was one of the real early models with a flat base and not a ball. {Basically two bits of flat metal gound to a ball shape.}
Not to say in the same circumstances with the new jig and with the lack of concentration that this would not happen again. Certainly a lot less chance of the ball of the jig coming out of the socket.
I have seen a setup where the person almost had the grinder at eye level, their excuse was that it was easier to see the tool sitting on the right bevel angle, this made for a very uncomfortable setup where they were basically lifting the tool onto the wheel and sparks coming out at face level.

Bench grinder setup is one setup most people forget.
You must have the bench high enough for you not to have to bend over but not too high that when using the jigs you cramp your body and restrict movement, you have to remember when sharpening some bowl gouges they have long handles.
You must have good lighting.
I heard one recommendation that the centre line of the grinder should be the same as for your lathe { have to check that out myself}
You need plenty of room around you when sharpening whether it is the tru grind or a tormek you are pivoting tools so need a clear working area.

Tim the Timber Turner
24th January 2012, 10:48 AM
I'd agree with Jim's suggestion regarding grinder hight.

Same as the lathe.

Spindle at, or a bit above, your elbow hight.

As I get older, I like my lathe higher.

Something to do with eyesight I suspect.

Cheers

Tim:)

NeilS
24th January 2012, 04:59 PM
Yeah, I did try to persuade him with a Yarra Valley Cabernet but failed.



All gifts of Mexican wines gratefully received.

But they just don't get to live in my cellar lest they unsettle the locals...:rolleyes:

FWIW, from the link that Ern posted to the Tuition pages on the American Assoc. of Woodturners website, Jigs and Safety (http://www.woodturner.org/community/fundamentals/sharpening/jig%20and%20safety.pdf)

PS - I don't agree with the suggestion in that article of making grind angles more acute to avoid the 'equator' problem. That can create a new problem to solve an existing problem. A different jig or jig adjustment can solve that problem without creating new problem while turning.

RETIRED
24th January 2012, 06:18 PM
All gifts of Mexican wines gratefully received.

But they just don't get to live in my cellar lest they unsettle the locals...:rolleyes:

FWIW, from the link that Ern posted to the Tuition pages on the American Assoc. of Woodturners website, Jigs and Safety (http://www.woodturner.org/community/fundamentals/sharpening/jig%20and%20safety.pdf)

PS - I don't agree with the suggestion in that article of making grind angles more acute to avoid the 'equator' problem. That can create a new problem to solve an existing problem. A different jig or jig adjustment can solve that problem without creating new problem while turning.I second that.

The other problem that I have with that article is that he advocates holding the handle whilst on the jig. Big nono in my opinion as you tend to lever the jig upwards and unseat it.

Another problem with holding the handle is that it travels in a huge arc in some cases and is uncontrollable.

rsser
24th January 2012, 06:31 PM
It's not a well-written article; he should match advice to jig type.

But I concur that spending time to learn to freehand with the assistance of a platform is well spent.