Indian - R8 Boring & Facing Head

[steran50]

HI:) ALL,
I spotted these Boring & Facing Heads on Ebay Yesterday they have them in R8 PRECISION BORING & FACING HEAD R8 SHANK - NEW MICRO BORING HEAD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PRECISION-BORING-FACING-HEAD-R8-SHANK-NEW-MICRO-BORING-HEAD-/280809570391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item41618e0057) and in MT3 PRECISION BORING & FACING HEAD MT3 TAPER SHANK - NEW MICRO BORING HEAD | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PRECISION-BORING-FACING-HEAD-MT3-TAPER-SHANK-NEW-MICRO-BORING-HEAD-/280809571220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item41618e0394) .

They look to be the same as these one in MT3 RDG Tools - Online Engineering Tools 3MT Boring Heads (http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2erdgtools%2eco%2euk%2facatalog%2fBORING_HEAD_3_MORSE_TAPER%2ehtml&WD=3mt%20head%20facing%20boring&PN=BORING_HEAD_3_MORSE_TAPER%2ehtml%23a2435243#a2435243) . RDG Tools didn't have them in R8 so I decided to take a Punt and I bought one of the R8 ones for My DM-45 Mill of the Indian Mob. Hopefully it is Okay, either way I will let You know how I go.

P.S. They will only be a Manual Boring & Facing Head at that Price too.

[pipeclay]

Did you confirm with the seller that they are a Facing head?
What did you mean by at that price they would only be manual,do they make an auto Facing and Boring head,if so how do they work?

[RayG]

Hi Stewart,

I was going to suggest that you check the CTC prices before you buy,

3" Boring head with R8 7/16" 20TPI shank & 12 PCS 3/4" boring bars #H61 (http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-535/3%22-BORING-HEAD-R8/Detail)

but I see it's too late. :doh: It would be interesting to compare the quality. I notice that same ebay seller also is selling Mitutoyo stuff at higher than US retail prices...


Regards
Ray

PS...Like PC I'm also wondering what they mean by facing?

[jhovel]

Ray, that's sales talk.... you can set the boring tool radially to 'face' or spot face. In practical terms that's nonsense, because you would have to adjust the radius manually every one or two revolutions....

I have considered (briefly) what would be involved to make some sort of ratchet attachment to my boring head, that engages with a pawl fixed to the mill on every revolution and advances the adjustment by one tooth each pass. If the ratchet was large enough with with enough teeth, that might allow automatic facing (at very low speed).
Any thoughts?
Joe

[.RC.]

I have considered (briefly) what would be involved to make some sort of ratchet attachment to my boring head, that engages with a pawl fixed to the mill on every revolution and advances the adjustment by one tooth each pass. If the ratchet was large enough with with enough teeth, that might allow automatic facing (at very low speed).
Any thoughts?
Joe

A few pictures on PM and HSM of people who have done just that...

[jhovel]

Richard,
oh really? Must have been there before my joining. I missed those. I'll do some searches. Thanks!
Joe

[Dave J]

Hi Stewart
I am just wondering why you went with the Indian one instead of a Chinese one? As for that price they come with a good range of boring bars. Mine is Taiwanese so I cant comment on the quality of the Chinese ones from CTC, but I am sure someone on here has bought one.
I also noticed when I enlarged the picture of yours that the dial is marked in 0.02mm graduations, I hope that is on diameter and not radius. My one is marked in 0.01mm graduations but that is on radius (direct).

Please let us know whats it's like when you get it, as it may well be better than the Chinese ones.

Dave

[Anorak Bob]

Richard,
oh really? Must have been there before my joining. I missed those. I'll do some searches. Thanks!
Joe

Hey Joe,

I have some 20 year old copies of Model Engineers' Workshop. One has an article written by a bloke, Don Unwin on constructing an automatic boring and facing head.

I will photocopy the article and post you a copy. Send me your address.

BT

[Dave J]

Hi Bob,
I will get a copy as well if you don't mind.

Dave

[steran50]

HI:) All,
Pipeclay No I didn't Confirm that they are a Facing Head. I Said that by the Price that they would only be Manual, because I can't see any Seller selling an Automatic Boring and Facing Head at that Price. They don't list an Auto Boring & Facing Head on their Ebay Site, might be worth asking them though that is if this one im getting is any good. Also from Pictures of Auto Boring & Facing Heads that I have seen it does not like one of them. How they Work, well I have never used one or seen one used so I can only Go by what I found on the Internet.

The Following is from Internet Research An Automatic Boring & Facing has some type of feed Mechanism in it to make it Feed Automatically or Semi - Automatically. Apparently with some of them they have a Knurled Ring around their outside and You hold onto that and it makes them Work - I would assume that You either Reverse the Milling Machine or wind the Unit backwards to return it its start position. Other Types I assume do it Automatically. The One in the Pictures is an interesting looking Unit its an Everede Tool Boring & Facing Head - R8 Shank, I am not certain how it Works. I have also Posted some Instructions for a selection of Wohlhaupter Boring & Facing Heads.

I don't want a 3" (75mm) Boring head, I only have a DM-45 Mill Drill. I am a bit concerned that when the head is fully offset or close to it that it may cause the mill to Vibrate ?. I already have a 50mm Boring Head that I bought of Ozmestore in the past - I think from memory it was Chinese. If I didn't need to do an Urgent Job with it when I got it, I would have sent it back. The Boring Head works fine, but what annoys me is its backlash. The backlash is not in the Screw Thread, but it is in the Groove in the Screw Head that makes the movable part of the head move. The Head adjustment Screw is graduated to '50' and '20' of that is backlash. It is a pain if You overwind the Screw and have to wind it back.
I was thinking Today maybe if I cut a Shim Washer and Super Glued it in place to take out the excessive backlash. Otherwise it would mean making a new Screw and then Graduating it.

The Don Unwin Boring & Facing Head - Yeah thats Interesting, I found this Model Engineering Homepage Page 8. (http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/articles%20-%20projects%20-%20new%20boring%20head.htm) and this Automatic Boring and Facing Head Article by Don Unwin (Digital Edition) - Article Archive - Model Engineers' Workshop - Magazines - My Hobby Store (http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/product/35241/automatic-boring-and-facing-head-article-by-don-unwin-digital-edition) .

[Dave J]

Hi Bob,
I received my copy, thanks, much appreciated Bob. :2tsup:

You must have a large photo copier.:o

Dave

[jhovel]

Thanks a lot Bob. Mine arrived in the mail last night.
Interesting article. I will have a look if I can adapt some of the ideas to my old American boring head.
Joe

[steran50]

HI:) ALL,
Well it turned up. Initial thoughts were it looks Goods. It is a Nicely made Boring Head, BUT the Backlash is far to excessive - each Division = 0.02mm now there is 25 divisions of Backlash so 0.5mm:(. The Backlash is caused the by the boss (or wheel) on the Screw that fits into the groove in the moveable partof the Boring Head being to loose of a fit. The Backlash could be Shimmed out, but thats not the Point.

What do You Guys reckon are the Industry Standards for R8 Drawbar Threads?, I've only ever seen it listed as being 7/16 - 20 or 12mm x 1.75.
The Indians have Threaded the Boring Head for a Drawbar with a Thread of 12mm x 1.5:(. I was only able to Work the Thread out, because I had a Socket Head Cap Screw out of some Car that had the right Thread. As far as I know 12mm x 1.5 is a Metric Special Thread, I see there are Chinese Dies on Ebay for that Thread.

The Item is usable, but I have Requested a Return Address to return the Item. It looks like I was the only Mug who Bought one too.

[Anorak Bob]

Bruce "Abratool" not long ago, purchased a small boring head that maybe of sub continental origin. Bruce is currently at the seaside impersonating Johnny Weissmuller. I'm sure he will post a report on the quality, or lack of, of his recent acquistion along with an appraisal of a locally purchased chuck he required for his Royal drill arbor.

I will send him a link to this thread so that he knows I've dobbed him in.

BT

[Dave J]

HI:) ALL,
Well it turned up. Initial thoughts were it looks Goods. It is a Nicely made Boring Head, BUT the Backlash is far to excessive - each Division = 0.02mm now there is 25 divisions of Backlash so 0.5mm:(. The Backlash is caused the by the boss (or wheel) on the Screw that fits into the groove in the moveable partof the Boring Head being to loose of a fit. The Backlash could be Shimmed out, but thats not the Point.

What do You Guys reckon are the Industry Standards for R8 Drawbar Threads?, I've only ever seen it listed as being 7/16 - 20 or 12mm x 1.75.
The Indians have Threaded the Boring Head for a Drawbar with a Thread of 12mm x 1.5:(. I was only able to Work the Thread out, because I had a Socket Head Cap Screw out of some Car that had the right Thread. As far as I know 12mm x 1.5 is a Metric Special Thread, I see there are Chinese Dies on Ebay for that Thread.

The Item is usable, but I have Requested a Return Address to return the Item. It looks like I was the only Mug who Bought one too.

The draw bar sounds like an odd ball thread size. Was that 0.02mm on radios or diameter? H&F have a 50mm one on special at the moment for $77 without arbour.

Dave

[Abratool]

Bruce "Abratool" not long ago, purchased a small boring head that maybe of sub continental origin. Bruce is currently at the seaside impersonating Johnny Weissmuller. I'm sure he will post a report on the quality, or lack of, of his recent acquistion along with an appraisal of a locally purchased chuck he required for his Royal drill arbor.

I will send him a link to this thread so that he knows I've dobbed him in.

BT
Just to advise, "Tarzan & Jane" have just returned from their camping trip, (no vines to swing onto) "Tarzans" body is not much but "Janes" is great :)
As soon as the Boring head from the UK arrives, a report will be given, in the meantime I would suggest to readers not to purchase the $10 (includes postage) for a small keyed drill chuck 1/64" to 5/32" No O jacobs taper from a mob in S.A.
The runout is about .010" It will make a good fishing sinker. :doh:
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

BS,

I was referring his swimming prowess, not his vine handling skills.:U

BT

[jhovel]

Stewart et al.
M12x1.5 is a very common ISO thread in the vehicle industry. I'm pretty sure it's the standard metric fine pitch for M12. You would get taps and dies easily and making a drawbar isn't rocket science either....
Sure its nice to own better quality special tools, but sometimes you have to calculate the cost versus utility of tools. I have a nice but smallish old american boring head but have used it only 4 times in three years. I would have used a cheaper, poorer quality, bigger one quite a bit more often if I had one...
See my point? You could only justify the price you paid when you bought it, and presumably couldn't justify the much higher expense of a better one. What changed your mind? or would you rather not have one at all than a lower quality one (with a home-made draw bar)?

Not teasing you or anything, but we all have this discussion in our head regularly and this is the position I came to. I'd rather have a limited tool than none at all - that then determines what I can afford or buy. Sometimes I get lucky - sometimes not... :)
Joe

[Anorak Bob]

M12 fine pitch is 1.25 Joe. Easy enough to find a tap and die on Ebay.

A while back, Richard "Eskimo" had put me onto Taiwan Tools when I was chasing a 30 taper saw arbor. The metric draw bar thread they had on offer was M12 x 1.5. Schaublin use a standard M12 coarse thread. I didn't go ahead with the purchase because their required form of payment was not straightforward and they wanted payment up front for a made to order product. And I didn't want to fool around making a draw bar.:no:

As it turned out, I ended up making two additional bars, a 1/2" BSW and a 1/2" UNC. Screw cut the threads on the Hercus. Easy.

BT

[RayG]

Hi Joe,

Metric fine is M12 x 1.25 Coarse is M12 x 1.75

Bad luck with the boring head Stewart, that's always a dissapointment when things don't work out. The pictures looked like it would be good quality, nice finish etc.

Regards
Ray

[Abratool]

BS,

I was referring his swimming prowess, not his vine handling skills.:U

BT
Bob
Its good to have a laugh :U
The swimming was wonderful :2tsup:
Got too old to be swinging on vines :C
Bruce

[jhovel]

My cheap and very old set of metric taps and dies has only M12x1.75 and M12x1.5.... my bad assumption.... should have checked...
Hang on, seems to depend on which school you went to.... e.g. ISO metric screw thread - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_261#ISO_261)
'Extra fine' is listed as M12x1.0 elsewhere.
Joe

[welder]

I learnt at tafe today there are three different fine pitches for m 12 fine 1, 1.25 and 1.5 mm.

[Anorak Bob]

I found and had to buy a Presto M12 x 0.5 tap, guess it's superfine, and if I don't find some weird and wonderful thing to make with it then I guess it could be used as a nit comb. Found a matching die of Chinese origin in the States. My Ebay seller of Czech taps, "Bolshevik" in Bulgaria has a vast selection of strange sized taps and dies.

When I bought my mill the right hand table feed hand wheel hand been bent on it's shaft and the teardrop handle sheared off. Schaublin used an M14 x 1 thread on the shaft. Coarse is 2 and fine, 1.5 but why adhere to convention.:no: As it turned out, Bolshevik had an M14 x 1 die but I have a set of transposing gears and was able to save my own bacon.

BT

[steran50]

HI:),
Joe M12 x 1.5 may well be a common Thread in the Car Industry, I did say that it was a Socket Head Cap Screw from a Car that had the Correct Thread to match the Boring Head. The Common Metric 12mm Threads are M12 x 1.75 and M12 x 1.25 and this is what You find in most Tap & Die Sets. Looking in the for example the Engineers Black Book M12 x 1.00 and M12 x 1.50 are considered (ISO) Metric Special Pitches. Sure I could Buy a Die or Cut and Weld the Bolt and make a Drawbar, but I shouldn't have to - Standards are there for a Reason.
I wouldn't Say it a Poor Quality Item. It is actually quite Nicely Finished, but the fit in the Quill I did notice seemed to be just not quite as good as My Er32 Collet Chuck is. I already have one 50mm Boring head (Ozmestore) that has excessive Backlash and I don't want another one with the same problem. It was the Style of the Boring Head I was after was why I bought it. I have others in the Past with Extension Arms, but haven't haven't seen any for a while. The Extension Arms for the Indian Head could take about 3/16 Round HSS Steel.
I didn't want to Hang on to the Item then make a Drawbar and try it out only to find it had more Faults like excessive Runout or something. I thought it best to Send it back while I had Time. I got two Replys from PrecisionTools Today 35 minutes apart ( I only emailed them the once to ask for the Address). The first Reply was asking Me to wait while they check the Problem and try and sort it out. The second Reply was with the Address and that I will get a full Refund and that they will check with the Manufacturer about the Problems I had mentioned.
I will have another look around for a R8 50mm - 62mm Boring Head perhaps with a bigger Boring Bar Capacity. Out of Interest has anyone used a 75mm Boring Head at its full Capacity on a Mill Drill such as a DM-45 ?. Thanks Dave I will check the Hare and Forbes one out, I could take the R8 Arbor off My other Boring and use that to save some Money.

[jhovel]

Thanks for all the enlightening responses guys. My tap and die set is actually 42 years old now - I bought it in my last year in High School with my Grandpa's Christmas money.... that would be when DIN and ISO standards didn't yet match....
It does have some other odd sizes in it, like M7x0.75 (M7 was still used a lot in Germany at that time - I still have a handful of M7x1.0 bolts picked up off the floor in a factory I worked in for a little while during school holidays...) I also have M9x1.25.

Time just has got away from me. I hate it when I remember doing something "a few years back" and on reflection it turns into a few decades back.....
I first got fascinated by lathes HALF A f#$%@^& CENTURY ago.... hell, that makes me an old fart! :(

Joe

[Bryan]

I still have a handful of M7x1.0 bolts picked up off the floor in a factory I worked in for a little while during school holidays...


They came in handy then.

[jhovel]

They came in handy then.

Yep, one at time.... you'd be surprised...
I discovered that in the '80s models Honda used M7 bolts in some odd places.
Oh, and I have a penchant for French vehicles - they used lots of both M7 and M9 in their cars and mopeds in the 50s and 60s - just so as not to conform, I suspect :)
I'm determined to use them all up before I kick the bucket! :roll:
Joe

[Abratool]

Thanks for all the enlightening responses guys. My tap and die set is actually 42 years old now - I bought it in my last year in High School with my Grandpa's Christmas money.... that would be when DIN and ISO standards didn't yet match....
It does have some other odd sizes in it, like M7x0.75 (M7 was still used a lot in Germany at that time - I still have a handful of M7x1.0 bolts picked up off the floor in a factory I worked in for a little while during school holidays...) I also have M9x1.25.

Time just has got away from me. I hate it when I remember doing something "a few years back" and on reflection it turns into a few decades back.....
I first got fascinated by lathes HALF A f#$%@^& CENTURY ago.... hell, that makes me an old fart! :(

Joe
I have the same problem :rolleyes:
Can be talking about something that I think happened a few years back, & it turns out to be half a century. :B
regards
Bruce

[Bryan]

Yep, one at time.... you'd be surprised...
I discovered that in the '80s models Honda used M7 bolts in some odd places.
Oh, and I have a penchant for French vehicles - they used lots of both M7 and M9 in their cars and mopeds in the 50s and 60s - just so as not to conform, I suspect :)
I'm determined to use them all up before I kick the bucket! :roll:
Joe

Joe, I was being a smart-####, inferring that if you still have them, you haven't used them. But if you have that's great. I have only come across one M7 thread in my life. I hope I find another one because I have a tap or two that size. In fact I might use it on some tooling projects, just to be difficult. :U

[steran50]

HI:) ALL,
Well it aint going back. My Youngest Sister Works at the Local Post Office and She informed Me Yesterday that it would Cost Me about $70.00:o with Insurance (Value of $150.00) for Me to Post it back to India. It just wouldn't be Financially viable for Me to Post it back. I informed Precision Tools and they Thanked Me for the Reply and Said they would give Me a Discount on My next Purchase. Precision Tools also Said that they will pass on to the Manufacturer about the Drawbar Thread and the Excessive backlash.

I have some Shim Washers that I can use to reduce the backlash. My Lathe can Cut a 1.5 Thread in Metric so I can make a Drawbar up.

[Dave J]

Thats how they get you, go for a partial refund though paypal as it is "not as described" because of the pore quality, at least you will get some money back.

Dave