flat belting .... ?

[morrisman]

hi

I hope to use my Camel back drill and I am in the process of getting it up and running (see the thread on my spindle stuffup :doh: )

Is there a modern type of flat belt material available ? The original belt for the drill is 2" wide and appears to be leather . Where would I buy flat belts and is it possible to join the belting yourself ?

Mike

[pipeclay]

The belting can be joined with clips or staples,you should be able to get the belting from a saddle maker.

[Stustoys]

Hi Mike,
I bought a replacement for my Hercus from Powergrip, but that was 10+ years ago while when they were still in Box Hill. The old one was leather with a scarfed joint, the new one appears to be some man made fibre joined with eyelets and I pin. "tick tick tick tick".(the belt cost me $10 more than the drill lol)

I've got books that tell me you can wire the belts together but I have never tired it.

Phil would be the man I guess.

Here is a home bew version of how my belt is joined
Leather straps and belting (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?42007-Leather-straps-and-belting&p=560301&viewfull=1#post560301)

The pin in mine is some sort of plastic, the guy gave me enough spare pin to make about five more, as yet I havent worn out the first pin(but then I havent put that many hours on the drill up until I fitted the VSD a couple of weeks back)


Stuart

Powergrip - Flat Transmission Belting (http://www.powergrip.com.au/PG_Transmission_Flat_Transmission.htm)

[morrisman]

OK

I see Powergrip have a branch in Rowville, nice and handy .

The original belt is approx. 1/4" thick , or slightly thicker than 1/4" .

I would think that rubber would stretch , but Powergrip will no doubt advise on the correct stuff to use and the joining method to use etc.

Thanks Mike

PS I wonder how they manage to make leather belts so long in one strip ... the animal ( cows ? ) must have a large hide .

[nadroj]

Habasit does synthetic belts, including flat ones. They have a branch in Sydney.
My 9 inch Hercus came with a leather belt, the ends of which were tied together with a leather lace. I've kept it for reference, even though it's too delapidated to use. I put a poly-vee belt on the lathe, which is OK but I'll probably go back to leather if it wears out.
I think a skived and glued joint must be the smoothest way to join leather, and should be easy enough to do at home I think (says he who never done nothing like it).

Jordan

[Stustoys]

Do you have the old belt? I just took the old belt in, handed it to them and said " I need one of these" and off they went. I think long flat belts are pretty forgiving about the length. As for long belts I think they can cut the leather in a spiral and you can always join two together when the cows got to short. Again questions for Phil :)

Stuart

[Abratool]

Mike
Your question came at a time when I had been reading up on leather belting for a lathe I have been considering
About 55 yrs back I bought a Drummond lathe a bit like the one you have purchased & at that time fitted it up with a leather belt tapering the ends & glueing it.
That belt lasted for many years & was quiet in operation.
With your Camel Back Drill it would be nice to have it authentic with a leather belt, I believe.
Anyway here are some figures.
Belt width in inches 1" or 2"
Length of scarf or splice on each lap 5" tapering to a feather edge.
The leather belt should run hair side to the pulleys ie flesh side out.
If long enough leather cannot be obtained then 2 or 3 splices can be made in the one belt however 1 is desirable,
The glue to use....Two parts liquid fish glue, one part of liquid isinglass by measure
The glue should be applied hot. The 2 ends of the belt clamped between boards ensuring straightness, after the hot glue is applied, using newspaper on the boards to ensure they do not get stuck to the belt.The glue is heated in a traditional woodworkers gluepot.
I have another glue formula if the fish glue is not available, however I think it might be available from Carbatec or other Woodworking suppliers.
The simplest dressing or oil to keep the leather belt soft & flexible in use is Neatsfoot oil used sparingly, this is available from harness shops.
All the best in your restoration work.
regards
Bruce

[morrisman]

Mike
Your question came at a time when I had been reading up on leather belting for a lathe I have been considering
About 55 yrs back I bought a Drummond lathe a bit like the one you have purchased & at that time fitted it up with a leather belt tapering the ends & glueing it.
That belt lasted for many years & was quiet in operation.
With your Camel Back Drill it would be nice to have it authentic with a leather belt, I believe.
Anyway here are some figures.
Belt width in inches 1" or 2"
Length of scarf or splice on each lap 5" tapering to a feather edge.
The leather belt should run hair side to the pulleys ie flesh side out.
If long enough leather cannot be obtained then 2 or 3 splices can be made in the one belt however 1 is desirable,
The glue to use....Two parts liquid fish glue, one part of liquid isinglass by measure
The glue should be applied hot. The 2 ends of the belt clamped between boards ensuring straightness, after the hot glue is applied, using newspaper on the boards to ensure they do not get stuck to the belt.The glue is heated in a traditional woodworkers gluepot.
I have another glue formula if the fish glue is not available, however I think it might be available from Carbatec or other Woodworking suppliers.
The simplest dressing or oil to keep the leather belt soft & flexible in use is Neatsfoot oil used sparingly, this is available from harness shops.
All the best in your restoration work.
regards
Bruce

Roger that Bruce and others,

I do have some Neatsfoot oil, the genuine pure stuff . The horse shops tend to sell a non-pure version of it . It is actually made from melted down cow hoofs . Neat = a ancient term for the cow.

Interesting , the fish glue , never heard of it . And Isinglass ... another mystery !

The antique Drummond B model lathe apparently used a type of early pulley system, which, by good luck, will take modern narrow section V belts . My B model has auto fan belts fitted which appear to fit well . I think the original belts were leather a rope type setup . Many of these era lathes had a treadle power arrangement, I can see the spindle housing where the large treadle wheel was fitted on the cast iron base . There was a unofficial copy of certain Drummond lathes made here in Australia , these are somewhat of a mystery , but a few have turned up. The round bed on EBAY right now , I have been informed, is a aussie copy .

I hope you go ahead and buy the lathe Bruce ! We need more of us who appreciate vintage equipment . What is it ?

Mike

[Abratool]

Mike
I am looking at a flat belt drive South Bend 9inch of around 1940s era.
I have given an offer & waiting for the bloke to "Get back to me" so it may or may not happen. I do not really need another lathe, but just wanted it to go to a good home.:)
Regarding the leather belting I have read where the normal hot animal glue has been used, but the fish glue was the proven, good stuff. I reckon Phil "Steamwhisperer" if he reads this will be able to offer additional advice on the subject.
By the way, neatsfoot oil should only be used after the glueing operation.
regards
Bruce

[Dave J]

I remember reading a year or 2 ago where guys where going over to car belts like are on Holden Commodores etc. They where joining them, but I cant remember how now.

Dave

[Woodlee]

Hi Mike,
I bought a replacement for my Hercus from Powergrip, but that was 10+ years ago while when they were still in Box Hill. The old one was leather with a scarfed joint, the new one appears to be some man made fibre joined with eyelets and I pin. "tick tick tick tick".(the belt cost me $10 more than the drill lol)

I've got books that tell me you can wire the belts together but I have never tired it.

Phil would be the man I guess.

Here is a home bew version of how my belt is joined
Leather straps and belting (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?42007-Leather-straps-and-belting&p=560301&viewfull=1#post560301)

The pin in mine is some sort of plastic, the guy gave me enough spare pin to make about five more, as yet I havent worn out the first pin(but then I havent put that many hours on the drill up until I fitted the VSD a couple of weeks back)


Stuart

Powergrip - Flat Transmission Belting (http://www.powergrip.com.au/PG_Transmission_Flat_Transmission.htm)


The place where I did my apprenticeship had a lot of line shaft driven machinery , mainly ball mills for grinding vitreous enamel powder , we had to replace the big flat belts occasionally or shorten them , they had the press that punched the clips into the ends of the belts , and the joining pin used was made from very thick diameter catgut .

Kev

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Mike,
I bought a replacement for my Hercus from Powergrip, but that was 10+ years ago while when they were still in Box Hill. The old one was leather with a scarfed joint, the new one appears to be some man made fibre joined with eyelets and I pin. "tick tick tick tick".(the belt cost me $10 more than the drill lol)

I've got books that tell me you can wire the belts together but I have never tired it.

Phil would be the man I guess.

Here is a home bew version of how my belt is joined
Leather straps and belting (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?42007-Leather-straps-and-belting&p=560301&viewfull=1#post560301)

The pin in mine is some sort of plastic, the guy gave me enough spare pin to make about five more, as yet I havent worn out the first pin(but then I havent put that many hours on the drill up until I fitted the VSD a couple of weeks back)


Stuart

Powergrip - Flat Transmission Belting (http://www.powergrip.com.au/PG_Transmission_Flat_Transmission.htm)
Hi Mike and stuart
Stick with the leather belts at the very least for their drive capabilities and of course, historical value. As you know I only use leather belts and where clip joiners have been used I have cut them out and laced them. You will not lose any grip as the lacing runs over the pulley so long as the lacing is done the right way. You also have the added ability of re tensioning the belt after the set up has settled in. On my camel back I did just that and it has never slipped since


Do you have the old belt? I just took the old belt in, handed it to them and said " I need one of these" and off they went. I think long flat belts are pretty forgiving about the length. As for long belts I think they can cut the leather in a spiral and you can always join two together when the cows got to short. Again questions for Phil :)

Stuart
Funnily enough they didn't use cows for drive belts(until a lot later). Camels were the preferred choice. When unusually large belts were required they were glued but rarely if at all(historically speaking) were the belts cut and glued as a final join. Lacing was (and should be) the go
Apologies but I love doing things the historical way.


Mike
I am looking at a flat belt drive South Bend 9inch of around 1940s era.
I have given an offer & waiting for the bloke to "Get back to me" so it may or may not happen. I do not really need another lathe, but just wanted it to go to a good home.:)
Regarding the leather belting I have read where the normal hot animal glue has been used, but the fish glue was the proven, good stuff. I reckon Phil "Steamwhisperer" if he reads this will be able to offer additional advice on the subject.
By the way, neatsfoot oil should only be used after the glueing operation.
regards
Bruce
Using neatsfoot oil works but has the disadvantage of rotting after a while. I use 'Coach'o'line' on my belts and leather items. It has lanoline in it. I needed a bellows for the forge in the black smiths shop so procured one from the museum stores. They wouldn't even open up under their own weight. After about one litre of coach'o'line later you would have thought it was new leather.
One other thing I will add is that after very extensive research, in old books and in real life, the fluffy, or flesh side of the belt faces out and the shiny side runs on the pulley. This is because the toughest part is against the pulleys yet if the flesh side is on the pulleys it wears through the belts quickly. A little tin of rosin and an occasional sprinkle will make any leather belt grip.

Hope all of this makes sense
ps If you decide to lace the belts, synthetic (yuck) or leather I can give you details on how do the lacing properly.

Phil

[Abratool]

Phil Thanks for the info on the leather belts.
I firmly agree, on these old machines its best to keep it the way that worked well. Stay with the leather stuff. It looks & feels right on these older machines.
Synthetics do not blend well with older machines.:no:
regards
Bruce

[morrisman]

Ok good advice coming

I had a look, there are two belts that came with the drill. A modern blue one, which is too short , and is shiny on one side . And, a old leather one, which has been broken , and is too short

The method of joining is seen .

A friend suggested I go to Clark rubber and buy some 50 mm strip

Will keep you all posted MIKE

[Abratool]

Ok good advice coming

I had a look, there are two belts that came with the drill. A modern blue one, which is too short , and is shiny on one side . And, a old leather one, which has been broken , and is too short
Mike
The blue one will never look correct.
Please consider a replacement leather belt it will outlast you.:)
Bruce

[danielhobby]

F & D O'Connor Conveyor Belting03 94624544
thomastown.they have all types of belts inc flat,round etc leather belting in stock and are a pleasure to deal with.cheers .danny

[danielhobby]

F & D O'Connor Conveyor Belting03 94624544Thomastown

[morrisman]

F & D O'Connor Conveyor Belting03 94624544
thomastown.they have all types of belts inc flat,round etc leather belting in stock and are a pleasure to deal with.cheers .danny

Right Danny

Thomastown is out in the sticks .. but I will put that one in the memory store :2tsup:
Found this on EBAY

Old Flat Belt Joiner | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Old-Flat-Belt-Joiner-/220933940393?pt=AU_Hardware&hash=item3370b064a9)

Mike

[Stustoys]

Hi Phil,
I'm not sure the new belt looks any worse than the VSD mounted on the side(or the non factory belt guard). Though I do have the old belt, so if you'd like to put together a post on how to join a leather belt I'd be glad to read it.

Stuart

[danielhobby]

by the way,what brand is your camelback,i have two denbeighs which are still in full service,cheers danny

[morrisman]

by the way,what brand is your camelback,i have two denbeighs which are still in full service,cheers danny

Danny

It is an American Rockford brand . A brass tag with: McPherson and Sons , on the side , would have been the Australian dealer .

Rockford was closely related to Barnes drills , both companies were run by brothers .One Barnes brother split off and built under the Rockford name .

I will look up Denbeigh.....is this yours ? http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/denbigh-pillar-drill-206508/

[danielhobby]

yes thats them,mine have both got the same round table and a curved guard covering the middle section of the spindle and both are still running the original large frame 3phase motors,i think they are about 2.5 or 3 hp.one drill has been in my family for about 50 years but i have no idea how old it is.cheers danny

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Phil,
I'm not sure the new belt looks any worse than the VSD mounted on the side(or the non factory belt guard). Though I do have the old belt, so if you'd like to put together a post on how to join a leather belt I'd be glad to read it.

Stuart

Hi Stuart
I am putting a thread together on lacing and will post it soon

Phil

[morrisman]

FYI: the 2" leather belting is $28 + GST per metre from F O'Conner . It is only 6mm thick .

MIKE

[danielhobby]

ouch!!!thats going to hurt a bit,although with a little care that belt will last many many years.6mm is about right,any thicker and its not flexible enough to drive around the smaller sized pulleys.