Turning yet another bowl vs challenging yourself

[TimberNut]

Hi Guys,
I thought it might be interesting for those on the forum to put their 2 cents worth in on this topic.

I, for one, have seen more than enough pens and bowls. Turned them, finished them - moved on.

My personal passion is to push the limits of what I can turn. I force myself to improve with every piece I make. I view every session at the lathe as a learning experience. If what I try to make doesn't work out (either due to design limitations, or my own abilities) - as long as I learn from it, it was a worthwhile endeavour.

Many times I've pushed a piece too far, with the end result being more broken bits on the floor. As long as I understand why it broke, I'm not disappointed. I either redesign the piece and try again, or seek advice from other turners with more experience as to how to solve it.

Unfortunately, rather than 'thinking around corners' to solve problems, most fellow turners I discuss my latest challenge with, always seem to respond that it "can't be done". Not because there is a technical reason why, but rather that the challenge takes them beyond their 'comfort zone' of experience. Almost always I end up proving them wrong.

Having discussed turning with people from countries whose average age of hobbist turners appears to be much lower than ours, I find that in general the 'younger' turners are more flexible in their attitudes and willing to push themselves further.

So I pose the question - is there a place in Australia for turners pushing the boundaries, or are we all just content to turn another boring bowl?

(think I'm gonna get crucified for that comment :rolleyes: but hey, if you're gonna challenge people, you've gotta expect some flak)

[Termite]

I always encourage the attitude of "Have a go". I personaly have made some monumental cockups in both my life and my woodwork but it hasn't stopped me (am on SWMBO No.3). I still make at least one mistake on every project that I do and am very relieved when it turns out to be a minor one. Some of the mistakes are worth a bucket full of swearing and cursing, but its the old story, I Learn from them.
So, avagomate, you might surprise yourself. :D

[bitingmidge]

Dunno, but I like the question! :D :D

P

[barnsey]

I'm with Termite except I'm on #4. :rolleyes:

"Another boring Bowl" if that's the case why did you turn it :confused: Each piece of timber you turn undresses to it's internal beauty, sure sometimes you can enhance that by your reading of the piece and it's grain but in the end you work with what is available to you. :o

I'm sure collectively we tend to push the limits every time we put a piece in the lathe. I'd like to think my signature line relects that sentiment. ;)

Don't know about the rest of you but I find that someone either in the house or friends and relo's outside always find something about whatever I've made delightful and I wind up giving it to them. Guess that goes to show that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. :p

I'm the first to admit there are things about most pieces I turn or make have aspects that I may think could have been done better but experience shows me that the majority of people don't have my critique criteria and that is probably a good thing otherwise we'd all be in love with J LO or some other hottie!! :eek:

Finally I find the expression "can't" in general reference is so totally negative it should be banned from the English language. "I am unable to achieve that" is a far more acceptable response. Even if all people are unable to do it today tomorrow is a new day and somebody some where will achieve it if it is worthwhile enough for them. Thus amke it worthwhile for yourself!!! ;)

[Grizz]

Is it the US Marines who say "can't means won't". I think that's a pretty good motto for all of us. Only being a new chum at this turning game, everything I do is a challenge. The nicest feeling I've had for a long time was when my eldest son's girlfriend couldn't put down a pot pouri container I made. You should have seen her face light up when I told her she could have it. Made all the expence worthwhile and made me realise that if I hadn't taken the challenge of tryin turning, I would have missed out on something that makes me and others feel good. Sorry, a bit off track but I guess that what I'm trying to say is "just because you haven't done it before, doesn't mean you can't do it now!"

Grizz

[Little Festo]

Well I have thought about this myself. I know I have to do more that just turn bowls, platters or forms etc. the only problem is that it generally involves things that take you away from turning - carving, piercing, painting, dying / colouring,wood burning pyrography, adding inlays etc and I suppose that many people are only interested in working with the lathe, after all that is what they were initially interested in. I don't delude myself thinking that I can turn the perfect bowl. I have seem some absolutly faboulous bowls where no embellishments have been used, just brilliant design and good turning and a uncompromising attention to detail.

I've started to do some carving on a few pieces. I spent much of Saturday and all of Sunday afternoon on a piece, a smallish one at that and I'm only about 25% of the way to finnishing the carving, no doubt I'll get quicker and better, I hope. I sometimes feel it all takes too long. It's less technical and more intuitional re shape, design etc. I don't think all turners would have the patience or incliation to add carving to their turnings, I'm not too sure that won't include me.

Good post Ian, you'll get us all asking ourselves questions about where we are going with our turning.

Ravings of an old man from the Tropics - Peter

[Ozartisan]

Excellent sentiment Ian. ;)
I have only been turning for a year (haven't turned a pen yet!!) and have been pushing the boundaries of my experience since day one.
I still recall the shocked look on the instructors face (I took an Adult Education course for a couple of hours a week for about 6 weeks) when I continued to push both his & my own boundaries with each new project I wanted to try.
While my bent is towards "bowl" type pieces, I keep trying to turn pieces that are different to the "norm".
I recently spent a couple of weeks in Tassie - "Turners Heaven" - and both my wife & I remarked on how many woodturning galleries simply repeated the same products over & over & over.
Fine for the tourist to grab a piece, but there were few galleries showing pieces from turners who were prepared to create "different" pieces.
I have the greatest admiration for these Artisans.
I'm with you Ian. I am finding people want to buy my pieces because they don't see the same thing 10 times over.
My biggest bugbear is the lack of time I have to devote to learning this wonderful craft!

[PAH1]

I think that to say bowls are passe is actually repeating the error that you are claiming to avoid. With anything you can push the limits within the form, be it bowl, hollow form two part hollow form, or spindle piece. Perhaps it is not so much the lack of challenge in the piece that you are questioning but the fact that at heart these peices are entirely functional and therefore fully grounded in day to day. I am not being alarmist here merely looking at it from another side. I am not yet to the point that I am looking to make arty type objects, I enjoy the timber grain and finishing a bit too much for that and I am still getting the mechanics down pat but it is enjoyable. Pens are again something that are entirely utilitarian, but they are addictive to make and quick. There are many areas that a turner can improve in, you just have to keep going. One last thing, please never fall into the trap of doing something on the lathe simply because it can be done. You see these sorts of pieces in the woodturning mags all the time, they may have been a challenge to make but they look like ****.

[Ozartisan]

My bent is primarily in the "bowls" area.
I do want my pieces to be functional - I want them used, not simply dust collectors.
I do however feel you can combine functionality with form.
My personal preference is for finer pieces, however not so fine that one is afraid to use them.
Best part is, we don't all like or want the same things - LONG LIVE VARIETY!

[reeves]

Sawdust maker siad..

So I pose the question - is there a place in Australia for turners pushing the boundaries, or are we all just content to turn another boring bowl?

Reeves said. i would say yes for sure, can u post some piccies of yr boundry prodding work...

a lot of the woodturning mags or even the off the lathes section in the last woodreveiw have good examples of art turning and unsusual work...i have seen a lot of the old guys do some great work as it can take exerience and knowing to make different use of the woods via turning...

all to it mate !

[TimberNut]

It’s good to see healthy discussion on the forum! I thought I’d get hammered for that ‘boring bowl’ bit. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that there isn’t a challenge in bowl turning, but I’ve seen too many turners who have 50+ bowls scattered about their house. Most of similar design to the last, just in a different timber.
This example may help to clarify my question-
How do you turn a solid-walled bowl whose base is round and top rim is triangular when viewed from above? The walls should be smooth and flowing and gradually transition from a circular cross-section to a triangle. Can it be turned out of a single piece without remounting? Can the triangular part be ‘turned’ at say 500rpm, not routed after the event? Scary stuff if not carefully planned. But it IS possible. Well, almost (haven’t quite resolved some issues with a jig to facilitate movement of the timber as it rotates yet, but I will!)

Most people think of timber on a lathe rotating about the spindle – movement is in one plane only. Can mounted timber move in 2 planes simultaneously? The closest I’ve seen is jigs that allow ovals to be turned. That’s thinking outside the square (or circle in this case!)

How do you get the timber to move forwards & backwards between headstock and tailstock while its spinning, in a controlled & safe manner?
These questions usually result in a response of “why would you want to?” My answer is "Because I’ve never seen it done (yet)."
Resolve these technical challenges and you open up a world of possibilities to the turner.
Just some food for thought.

[PAH1]

Ian, you may want to spend some time thinking about why you want to do these things. I can think of a non jig way to turn the bowl that you describe by doing the triangle shaping partway down the blank internally and externally before mounting in the lathe to do the transition. Moving the timber in 2 planes is easy, create a sliding headstock ( I have seen diagrams of these though do not ask me where), and then place a cam behind it to push it.

With all of these sorts of things that you are describing you start to come up against some physical principals that get rather hard to get past.

1. Centre of mass Vs Centre of rotation. Each timber blank has a unique centre of mass, traditional turning has done well because that is mostly close to the geometric centre and eventually lies very close to the centre of rotation. Taking something through a trangular arc would mean that you have the centre of mass altering its position relative to the centre of rotation 500 times a minute. This creates stress on the timber and hence it is more likely to fly apart.

2. Momentum similar to above but as the mass of the piece increases so do the forces required to make it change direction, leading to stress on both the timber and the machine. this translates as you better be thinking of a 3" bowl and not a 12" one.

3. Tool control, this is relatively simple in circular turning. With the sort of turning that you are talking about it could well be next to impossible ie you are reduced to scraping as a means of removing wood.

4. It seems to me that you are talking about reinventing the wheel as I am sure that some of the ornamental turning stuff is capable of at least some of the movements that you describe.

[TimberNut]

The 'why' is easy. If I've done it before, generally I don't bother doing it again. If I do, usually I'll modify it somehow to challenge me further. I don't aim for speed and repetition because I rarely turn the same thing twice (and you get better with practice, right?). If I dream up something new that will challenge me - then the goal is "to make it before I break it"

Many of my ideas have been solved with ornamental turning jigs, fittings, custom mods, router lathes, face plate mouldings, etc. Some simply have been impractical to complete.

I will always gladly receive constructive advice similar to that just listed. If it is grounded in principals of physics or other fundamental laws of nature that cannot be overcome, then I'll change my design to allow for those limitations.
However, if the advisor cannot substantiate their reasoning for stating the design is unworkable, then the questions remains:
Can I??

The answer is not always 'yes' but the ongoing challenge is the driving force behind my passion for turning.

[PAH1]

One more hole that I should have thought of before, with a triangular piece it is unavoidable that 1 corner will have the grain running accross the corner rather than along the face, will make it very difficult to get a sharp corner as it is likely to break off along the sunsupported face.

So as not to seem negative (actually it is a force of habit from my profession to find things wrong with how people are doing things) I will say a couple of things about what I do. I have also rarely made anything even closely alike, partly due to moderate experience, partly due to the fact that much of the wood that I use is true scavenged pieces. It is very hard to make something even similar when the blanks that you are using have come from wild trees, given grain splits and other things that make turning entertaining. I have just got some bulk turning blanks that could be used for what you describe, however I am about to enter the world of turned boxes and lidded bowls. There is enough variation there to keep me occupied for a while. I like to see someone experiment, my personal feeling is however that you must then be able to say what I have done is better than what has already been done, my definition of better is that it has that ethereal "wow" factor not just being different from those things done before. If you can say that then you really have something.

[reeves]

Hey sawdust maker, nice ideas, but i think u may may have 'issues' mate.

have u posted some pics of yr stuff for us to look at ?

[reeves]

just to help inform this discussion i here post some images from my stash i have collected as I troll around the net...

unfortunlatley i have no idea who made them but i think they are interesting turnings not bound by the 'boring bowl syndrome' described above

[reeves]

heres some more images and reference to non boring turning..

http://www.the-sot.com/craft.html#top
http://www.the-sot.com/gallery.html
http://hifijohn.tripod.com/WOOD.HTML
http://www.turnersco.com/competition.htm
http://www.carolinamountainwoodturners.org/liggett/liggett1.html
http://www.outofcontrol-woodturning.com/FAVORITE.html
http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/riser.html

I saw some guys at the Hobart WWW show doing eliptical turnings.

I recently buoght Mike Darlows book, Woodtruning methods, which has some really advanced techniques

http://www.hinet.net.au/~mdarlow/

I have a nice magazine form the US that has some very wild art turnings, like 10 ft high spirals based on sea creatures that need a special lathe to make them...pretty creative but ultimaltey useless unless u just wanna look at them..cant find any links but its pretty wild and very different

heres some more images from my collection

[reeves]

some more interesting turnings

[reeves]

for some of us just turning a decent bowl is challenging enough...

[Termite]

for some of us just turning a decent bowl is challenging enough...
Even more so when you don't have a lathe :rolleyes:

[reeves]

Even more so when you don't have a lathe :rolleyes:
ahhah, now theres always one isnt there ...;-)

i am sure that makes it extra challenging Termite ol pal....

[reeves]

more wild turnings, the machine pic looks like some kind of lathe attachmnet that does complex patterning

[rsser]

Reeves, great stuff!

And take a look at Raffan's or Hughes' bowls - beautiful simple forms, but bl**dy hard to do. 'Signature line' captures something of their uniqueness. Raffan's book, Turned Bowl Design, shows some work that clearly took a lifetime to perfect. Or Bernie Kiyabu's green-turned bowls - superb turning.

Or the recent pub called something like '300 bowls'. Bowl you over ;-}

[ubeaut]

Hey Reeves - Stop nicking images from one of our sites. ;)

Put in link to the sites instead.
Here are 2 who push the envelope from time to time:
Guilio Marcolongo: http://www.ubeaut.biz/Guilio/gm.htm
: http://www.ubeaut.com.au/woodstuf.htm

Then there's: The Australian Woodturners Exhibition: http://www.ubeaut.com.au/nats2k.htm
and of course my old mate Rolly Munro :eek: across the ditch: http://www.rollymunro.co.nz/

And the fun side of the whole thing doing it together: http://www.ubeaut.com.au/down99.htm

One of Guilio's hats below:

[reeves]

Reeves, great stuff!

And take a look at Raffan's or Hughes' bowls - beautiful simple forms, but bl**dy hard to do. 'Signature line' captures something of their uniqueness. Raffan's book, Turned Bowl Design, shows some work that clearly took a lifetime to perfect. Or Bernie Kiyabu's green-turned bowls - superb turning.

Or the recent pub called something like '300 bowls'. Bowl you over ;-}Thanks Rsser, yes i was lucky enough to attand Richards seminar in HObart and i have some of his stuff in 2 books.

Awesome bowl technique. Magical chisel technique Apparently he was into pottery before turning and so had a structural knowledge of bowl design to draw from.

Personally i think one could try for years and still find the need for improvment in basic bowl design and tool control.

Even tho i have a loungeroom full of p[oorly designed bowls destined for presents, i have noticed i ma imporoving in the basics such as shape, usability, chisel control and overal design application.

So to me, keeping it basic is important and improving slowly a worthwhile path to take.

Neil thanks for the comment, and yes, if i rememebered i had nicked those images from yr site i would have noted it .

thanks for the informative links and setting me straight.

BTW i just have a big folder full of stuff i collect as i surf....
opbviously i went through yr iste well, i apologise for nay misconstrusion

[Cliff Rogers]

.... I personaly have made some monumental cockups in both my life and my woodwork ....
Hijack...

I remember VIVIDLY a couple of points (in life) that I'd just love to go back to & take the other option..... :(