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View Full Version : V Flute Profiles on P&N, Thompson, D-way and Ellsworth Bowl Gouges



NeilS
31st Jan 2012, 07:25 PM
Bowl gouges come in various V flute profiles and turners can develop a preference for one flute style over another.

In my experience flute profiles are rarely, if ever, accurately displayed with clear end-on images on the various online sites. Unless you manage to get your hands on a mate's or see one at a woody event, it is difficult to know what you are getting before you have parted with your $s.

So I thought it might be useful to have a thread with clear images of the flute profiles of the various gouges as a reference point. I'll begin with a few I have.

From left to right, with narrowest on the left and progressing through to the widest on the right; P&N, Thompson, D-way and Ellsworth.
196888


P&N and Thompson side by side
196889

Thompson and D-way side by side
196890

D-way and Ellsworth side by side
196891

And, Ellsworth and P&N, the widest and narrowest side by side
196892

It would be good if others could post the ones they have that are not here.

hughie
1st Feb 2012, 06:56 PM
Good point, mostly you see side shots.

TTIT
1st Feb 2012, 11:18 PM
If nobody else beats me to it, I'll put up a Henry Taylor against a P&N tomorrow .

Tony Morton
2nd Feb 2012, 01:42 PM
I've got a old P&N about fifteen years old and is is very much like the Elsworth I prefer the cutting with that to the newer P&N don't know why.

cheers Tony

old pete
2nd Feb 2012, 02:41 PM
Hi NeilS.

Setting aside the issue of the profile which is a debate that could continue for several years at least I'd like to comment on the superb grind you have produced on those tools. Top job and it's what every one should aim to achieve.


Cheers Old Pete



Bowl gouges come in various V flute profiles and turners can develop a preference for one flute style over another.

In my experience flute profiles are rarely, if ever, accurately displayed with clear end-on images on the various online sites. Unless you manage to get your hands on a mate's or see one at a woody event, it is difficult to know what you are getting before you have parted with your .

So I thought it might be useful to have a thread with clear images of the flute profiles of the various gouges as a reference point. I'll begin with a few I have.

From left to right, with narrowest on the left and progressing through to the widest on the right; P&N, Thompson, D-way and Ellsworth.
196888


P&N and Thompson side by side
196889

Thompson and D-way side by side
196890

D-way and Ellsworth side by side
196891

And, Ellsworth and P&N, the widest and narrowest side by side
196892

It would be good if others could post the ones they have that are not here.

NeilS
2nd Feb 2012, 04:11 PM
If nobody else beats me to it, I'll put up a Henry Taylor against a P&N tomorrow .

Vern...:2tsup:

NeilS
2nd Feb 2012, 04:30 PM
Hi NeilS.

... I'd like to comment on the superb grind you have produced on those tools.



Yeah, they are a little bit on the pretty side...:rolleyes:

However, don't hesitate anyone to add a missing flute profile because of the grind condition. Anyway, I doubt that any are going to be as bad as that cruddy P&N I added.

It's the flute profiles we want to see folks, so keep them rolling in.

Bill Wyko
3rd Feb 2012, 11:58 AM
Myself, I prefer a deeper flute. It allows a longer cutting edge along the side of your grind. I recently purchased several Glaser tools and have found them to be the finest tools I've ever used. A real pleasure. I'll try to get some pics tonight.

NeilS
3rd Feb 2012, 03:59 PM
This one is the Crown Pro PM (1"). Not sure if there is any difference between the flutes on the Pro PMs and their M2 HSS gouges, I don't expect so.

This one is getting closer to a U profile, with just a bit of easing outwards on the wings.


197237

wood hacker
3rd Feb 2012, 08:19 PM
After seeing Neils beautifully polished bevels I'm almost ashamed to show these. On the left is my Thompson, whick is my favorite and on the right my Robert Sorby.

NeilS
3rd Feb 2012, 09:27 PM
Thanks for that one Wood Hacker.

That's a classic Sorby flute there, a full catenary.

And, nobody in this thread can see the grinds...:cool: just the flute profiles, OK .

TTIT
3rd Feb 2012, 11:28 PM
If nobody else beats me to it, I'll put up a Henry Taylor against a P&N tomorrow .:doh: Knew I had something else I was supposed to do in the shed tonight :doh: - tomorrow - - promise!

Bill Wyko
4th Feb 2012, 03:25 AM
These are my 10V and 15V gouges from Glaser Hitec. The depth of the flute and the shape is what I consider perfect. These tools really changed the level of quality and how thin I turn now. By far the finest tools I've laid my hands on.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/23971405/400839841.jpg

NeilS
4th Feb 2012, 08:56 AM
Thanks Bill

Interesting. The flute profile on those Glaser Hitecs look to be very similar to the Sheffield makers.

NeilS
4th Feb 2012, 05:09 PM
REQUEST: Could we please restrict this thread to just the flute profiles.

There is always an opportunity to discuss the non-flute pros and cons of the different tools in other threads on the forum.

If you get an irresistible urge to extend the discussion beyond the flute profiles, don't resist, just go ahead and start a new thread...:U

Thanks

Bill Wyko
4th Feb 2012, 07:04 PM
Sorry about that. So can we expand with more info in regards to how the flute depth and curve effects the overal grind and cutting edge shape? IMO the deeper flute will allow a longer sweep along the side as found in an Elsworth grind. I have one Thompson 3/8 gouge but it doesn't seem like it would lend to this shape. Has anyone ground a shallow flute to an elsworth profile? I'd be curious to see how it worked. Then I might consider reshaping mine.

Sawdust Maker
4th Feb 2012, 08:00 PM
Interesting the difference in the shape and the greater amount of metal in the bottom of the V in the Thompson - wonder why

are we going to look at U shapes as well (or have I just mentioned the unmentionable)

NeilS
4th Feb 2012, 10:48 PM
Interesting the difference in the shape and the greater amount of metal in the bottom of the V in the Thompson - wonder why

are we going to look at U shapes as well (or have I just mentioned the unmentionable)

Not sure what Doug's thinking was in having that extra meat in his gouges, but in my experience the extra weight & stiffness does help dampen vibration while roughing.

The U shape is not an unmentionable as far as I'm concerned, it's just that they don't come with much variation compared to the V profiles. Feel welcome to add some U gouges, just no spindle roughing gouges...:o

TTIT
4th Feb 2012, 11:04 PM
1/2" Henry Taylor beside 5/8" P&N - but let's not get into the way they're measured :no:

Haven't used the P&N's since I found the Henrys unhandled and unused among Dads gear after he went to the big shed.

NeilS
4th Feb 2012, 11:08 PM
So can we expand with more info in regards to how the flute depth and curve effects the overal grind and cutting edge shape? IMO the deeper flute will allow a longer sweep along the side as found in an Elsworth grind. I have one Thompson 3/8 gouge but it doesn't seem like it would lend to this shape. Has anyone ground a shallow flute to an elsworth profile? I'd be curious to see how it worked. Then I might consider reshaping mine.

I have a Ellsworth grind on all of my Thompsons, but not as extreme as some people have. Works fine for me.

A working rule of thumb is make the edge profile, as viewed looking down on the flute, mirror the flute profile as viewed looking end on to the gouge (ie as viewed in the pics on this thread). Try that as a staring point.

I'll try to remember to take a pic of my Thomp 3/8 gouge the next time I'm at the workshop.

Cliff Rogers
5th Feb 2012, 12:08 AM
....
Haven't used the P&N's since I found the Henrys unhandled and unused among Dads gear after he went to the big shed.
I lurve my HT Superflutes, I have a 1/2" & two 5/8" ones in my collection.

NeilS
5th Feb 2012, 10:07 AM
1/2" Henry Taylor beside 5/8" P&N

Thanks for that TTIT.

The HT definitely have their own take on the V flute profile, and many love them.

Cliff Rogers
5th Feb 2012, 10:51 AM
Crumby photo.
Left to right....
NoName 1/2" (almost a U flute) had it for years, never use it.
Henry Taylor 1/2" Superflute (New, hasn't been sharpened yet)
Henry Taylor 5/8" Superflute (My favourite tool)
Thompson 5/8" V Flute
Crown 5/8" (Almost as good as the HT but doesn't hold the edge as long.)

NeilS
5th Feb 2012, 12:41 PM
Thanks Cliff. Good to have samples of the HTs with that classic Child 'superflute' profile.

NeilS
6th Feb 2012, 10:44 AM
Sorry about that. So can we expand with more info in regards to how the flute depth and curve effects the overal grind and cutting edge shape? IMO the deeper flute will allow a longer sweep along the side as found in an Elsworth grind. I have one Thompson 3/8 gouge but it doesn't seem like it would lend to this shape. Has anyone ground a shallow flute to an elsworth profile? I'd be curious to see how it worked. Then I might consider reshaping mine.

Here is the Celtic grind on my 3/8" Thompson:

197497 197498

rsser
15th Feb 2012, 12:03 PM
My camera gear isn't good enough to capture two tools in the kit that I wouldn't be without.

Both P&N. One is 10mm rod diameter and the other is 8mm. The tip is a regular radius curve and the walls are straight and angled somewhere between a U and a V. 45 bevel.

They come into play when I find it hard to get a clean cut on cranky grain or a nice line on a small bowl. They afford fine cuts and maneuverability. They do however require curved rests being so small in X-section.

Of course how you shape and use the bevel makes a lot of diff., regardless of the flute shape from the factory. I wouldn't like to use Neil's grind pictured above but he does nice work with it. I'd want a more rounded tip and steeper bevels on the wings. Doesn't matter. Horses for courses.