Vertical Milling Head for Horizontal Mill

[seafurymike]

I figured you guys might know where i could locate a milling head for my horizontal mill.

The mill was bought from TAFE at a very good price, but i didn't have the vertical milling head attachment. It has provision for one, but after looking through the NET I cant find anyone selling just a head for my unit.

Any thoughts, anyone know someone with a unit hidden away for a rainy day?

[PDW]

I figured you guys might know where i could locate a milling head for my horizontal mill.

The mill was bought from TAFE at a very good price, but i didn't have the vertical milling head attachment. It has provision for one, but after looking through the NET I cant find anyone selling just a head for my unit.

Any thoughts, anyone know someone with a unit hidden away for a rainy day?

What sort of mill, what sort of VH, with what taper are you after, and how much time & trouble are you prepared to go to to mount one when you find it?

Reason I ask is, I've seen one B/port J head for sale as a standalone item in the last 30 years but I've bought 3 other non-quill VH's over that period. None of them have been a 'bolt on' job, in fact 2 of them are still sitting on the floor waiting for my need to be strong enough to make the mounting bits. Not available BTW as until I mount 1 on the Vicky mill I'm not parting with either.

I got 2 of them from Mick Moyle in Sydney but that's probably not a lot of help to you in Melb. I wouldn't call them rare but not real common.

Edit: Here's one....

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Milling-machine-Vertical-head-iso-40-mount-bracket-spline-link-complete-/390386533563?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item5ae4d9c4bb

PDW

[seafurymike]

It's an Italian Mill, I dont have picture on the phone, only a video of it running with the VFD. I'll do this tonight and post it so I can show what I'm talking about.

The unit would be driven from the horizontal attachment and it already has 4 bolt holes for it to mount to, so if i could re-use this I think it would work straight away (if you get my drift)

[Greg Q]

Mike I've been seeking one to adapt to the long-running Perrin project I'm helping with. There is a Nichols 40 taper head on ebay that runs from a horizontal spindle. But be warned: It is frozen solid with rust. including the taper. As such I'd rate it worse than scrap, because it time consuming scrap.

[PDW]

Mike I've been seeking one to adapt to the long-running Perrin project I'm helping with. There is a Nichols 40 taper head on ebay that runs from a horizontal spindle. But be warned: It is frozen solid with rust. including the taper. As such I'd rate it worse than scrap, because it time consuming scrap.

Interesting that you say that because there's NO indication in the Ebay ad that the thing is unserviceable (I linked to it above).

I put nicholas312003 in an 'ignore' filter some time ago because of his infuriating habit of posting packets of nuts & bolts in the machinery section (I asked him to desist & got a snotty reply, Ebay didn't care either). It would seem that treating everything he has to sell with great suspicion would be wise.

PDW

[PDW]

It's an Italian Mill, I dont have picture on the phone, only a video of it running with the VFD. I'll do this tonight and post it so I can show what I'm talking about.

The unit would be driven from the horizontal attachment and it already has 4 bolt holes for it to mount to, so if i could re-use this I think it would work straight away (if you get my drift)

Work straight away - har har. Sure, I get your drift, I admire your optimism though....

The devil is in the details. Spacer off of milling column, clamps to milling column, stub arbor to drive VH etc etc etc. I've done this twice in the past, simple is a relative term.

Last time I was there Mick had a 4MT VH for a horizontal mill. Big lump, nice & solid. I bought my 3MT and 40 ISO taper heads off of him, didn't want to mess with yet ANOTHER taper and the inevitable collection of tooling for it; I already have 2MT, 3MT, R8 and 40 ISO, that is *more* than enough.

PDW

[Stustoys]

I put nicholas312003 in an 'ignore' filter some time ago because of his infuriating habit of posting packets of nuts & bolts in the machinery section
I was just about to say "he seems to have cut back on that", but I checked...... 27 listings "Cad plated nuts M12 -25 of"

"flight rust" seem to have got to this Vee block V block about 3" long minor surface rust | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390384809609)

I have picked a few things off him though.

Stuart

[seafurymike]

Ok so this is the guy that I read about who said it was new in a packet and the MT shank came in half rusty.

PDW - your probably correct in saying there will be some work involved to retrofit to the mill.


Has anyone thought of making a unit which bolts to the dovetail of the horizontal and is somehow reduction driven from a separate motor? I mean the unit is built like a brick $&@?house, to quote an old boss. I thought of using one of my huanyang VFD units, but it spins down to 6K only and I would have to reduce this a lot to cut steel, etc at low speeds.

[Greg Q]

No no, this is a different guy. He lives a few kms from me, so Mike G and I went there seeking a vertical head. everything is in the backyard under overturned plastic tubs or plastic sheets. ##### everywhere. I bought a bucket of tool steel blocks for $5. Must be 25 kg in there. That's about all I would buy from him: Everything precision has been just about ruined.

That Nichols head spindle is frozen in the casting...the taper is rusty too. In other words it is scrap. (I am pretty adventurous when it comes to raising the dead, but this one would be a real act of desperation.

GQ

[Stustoys]

Hi Guys,
Sorry for the confusion.

There is one up side of his place Greg, it makes my shed look "not so bad", at least it has a roof. lol

That head might be a good place to start for something to copy.. so about $10 would be a fair price I think.

Stuart

[matthew_g]

I have bought the odd little thing off Nicholas..What I have bought has been ok..
At his house(if you can call it that) we went for a walk right through to the back back back shed and he pulled out 3 eskies full of horizontal cutters of all shapes and sizes, Needless to say I accidentally bought the lot..
Have any of you seen his Broadford factory? It's just like his driveway but inside a huge shed..lol..
Outside looks like the drive at the.....shall we say DWELLING..lol
He does come up with some interesting stuff on the odd occasion though.

[jhovel]

I've bought my lathe from Nick ($200 2 motors and headstocks) and several other bits and pieces - 8" 3-jaw chuck, 10" 4-jaw chuck, a heap of steel and some aluminium, as well as a chain hoist. All of it very reasonably priced. He sadly closed his warehouse in Heathcote about a year ago....
I've also been to his house - what a mess! Same as his shed in Heathcote - just not befitting a suburban house.... :) LOL
Oh, and yes, he does have a lot of crap as well a some gems....
He also seems to be able to find things others can't. I've e-maile him a few times (for both chucks for example) and asked him to find what I wanted. He's mostly friendly, but certainly eccentric to say the least (kind, non-judgemental description form this psychiatric nurse :) )
Joe

[matthew_g]

Thanks Joe I ment to say Heathcote but for some reason every time he comes up in conversation I say Broadford...Meh close enough..I should know better considering I used to live in the Bendigo region..Bagshot North actually..I miss my Farm

[PDW]

Ok so this is the guy that I read about who said it was new in a packet and the MT shank came in half rusty.

PDW - your probably correct in saying there will be some work involved to retrofit to the mill.


Not saying it's impossible or anything. After all, I've done it twice. Just a fair bit of measuring & fabricating required.

Here's a nice writeup of someone else who's done it recently. Damn fine job too, he's given me some inspiration to get on with mine. It's just moved up to position 203 on the 'do it' list.

b@s 2a milling machine - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/b-s-2a-milling-machine-237581/)

The heads are neither rare nor common. Assiduous hunting will eventually come up with one but you may well have to take what's available rather than get the taper or features you'd like. The 3MT head I've got has the double angle knuckles so you can set it at any angle you want, the 40 ISO taper head only moves in 1 plane. I want a double-swivel 40 ISO head, preferably with quill. Hah.

PDW

[matthew_g]

Almost the spitting image of my mill, The paint is better on mine though

[.RC.]

Big problem with a lot of vertical heads is you end up with SFA daylight under the spindle by the time you add a vice and a tool holder..

[danielhobby]

sorry if im doing a hijack but i have a little ex tafe italian mill also and want a vert attachment as well,will wait for your photos to confirm as my mill is at workshop.cheers danny

[PDW]

Big problem with a lot of vertical heads is you end up with SFA daylight under the spindle by the time you add a vice and a tool holder..

Agree. The better ones are those which have a riser as part of their castings to move the bottom of the spindle higher, at least to the same point as the horizontal spindle. None of mine do that, of course.....

B/port made a nice adaptor that fitted on the overarm and allowed mounting one of their milling heads, giving good daylight under the spindle. There's a page on lathes.co.uk showing the various options.

Never ever seen one in Australia though. I've been thinking of making one so I can mount my J head on the Vicky mill and then put the M head back on the B/port mill. It's on the project list, make a pattern when I get back to wood working & get a casting done....

Back to the original topic, I've seen a few nice VH's made from scratch for horizontal mills. If you can live without a quill then whittling one out of some blocks of steel is far from impossible. For the really keen, there's always the lightweight Dore-Westbury milling head you can build from scratch. I watched someone do this as a TAFE project some 20 years back.

PDW

[racer123]

I have a near new horizontal adaptor for a bridgeport that I am looking at selling. That might be starting point if you are interested?
You would have a right angle NT30 to NT 30 head.
Dave

[seafurymike]

This getting to be a good thread, The build looks very interesting, but i would have to put that as my last resort given my lack of time.

I just took a picture of the mill so people could see what it looks like. Pretty much stock standard, but i bought this for $200 so im really happy with it.

[.RC.]

I have a near new horizontal adaptor for a bridgeport that I am looking at selling. That might be starting point if you are interested?
You would have a right angle NT30 to NT 30 head.
Dave

Those right angle heads would be a bit light for the mill.... They are extremely handy things on a bridgeport though...

[danielhobby]

yep,same brand as mine,yours looks a little bigger than my one.the overall height of mineis about 1700 mm?three phase also..cheers danny

[Dave J]

You can use a collet chuck in the horizontal and it will be like a vertical mill, it's just harder to see what your doing.

Dave

[PDW]

This getting to be a good thread, The build looks very interesting, but i would have to put that as my last resort given my lack of time.

Hah. Just why, do you think, the vertical heads I've got are still on the floor?

I paid more than $200 for each of my VH's so I hope you're not expecting something cheap as well as ready to attach & use. I'd suggest buying Lotto tickets as IMO your chances of winning are greater.....

PDW

[Dave J]

I agree, unless the machine comes with one you chances are like lotto in finding a bolt on replacement. If you really want a bolt on one you will have to look world wide as well and it's going to cost.

A lot of these mills where just bought and used as horizontal mills in production, so the vertical heads are far out numbered to the amount of mills out there. Also a lot people don't like to split them from the machine if they have one as it goes as a package.

Dave

[seafurymike]

Hah. Just why, do you think, the vertical heads I've got are still on the floor?

I paid more than $200 for each of my VH's so I hope you're not expecting something cheap as well as ready to attach & use. I'd suggest buying Lotto tickets as IMO your chances of winning are greater.....

PDW

I do realise that the head will cost more than the mill. Maybe:U

[RayG]

That red/blue colour coding looks familiar, I've seen it somewhere before but I can't quite place it...

It's not an ex ADF machine by any chance?

Regards
Ray

[PDW]

I agree, unless the machine comes with one you chances are like lotto in finding a bolt on replacement. If you really want a bolt on one you will have to look world wide as well and it's going to cost.

A lot of these mills where just bought and used as horizontal mills in production, so the vertical heads are far out numbered to the amount of mills out there. Also a lot people don't like to split them from the machine if they have one as it goes as a package.

Dave

Agree, the usual way the heads get separated is via some idiot auctioneer (or Ebay clueless seller) breaking stuff up when it all belongs together. That's how I got my ISO 40 VH, it certainly belongs with a reasonably late model mill out there somewhere.

I've seen people try selling the tailstock separately from its matched dividing head on Ebay; nothing surprises me.

Best way to get a H/V mill combo is to buy one in the first place. Looking for the exact right VH for an Italian mill - as I said, start buying Lotto tickets & checking out overseas sales sites......

PDW

[Dave J]

Some of the guys in the US have complained about auctions where the mill dividing, vertical head or other stuff have been mixed with the lathe tooling lot, but the auctioneers where not worried and didn't care. Some get lucky and are able to buy things off the buyer of the lathe lot, but most go home without it and the things will never be reunited again.
The auctioneers are only interested in the money.

Dave

[Gary S]

Hi All
I bought one of the vertical heads nicholas312003 had on Ebay for my Nichols horizontal mill. I have the Heavy Production model.
Never thought I would find a vertical head in Oz so I jumped at it when it came up on Ebay. The only ones I'd seen for sale before were in the US and they wanted $950 for them and that was without the 40Int spline drive. As it happens he had 3 heads (milling ones that is :D) , but I didn't know that at the time. He's sold two now.
As Greg Q says, it was seized which was dissappointing, but beggars cant be choosers. The head must have been lying on its side in the wet as the spindle bearings were rusted in one spot. Stripped it all down and replaced the 3 bearings for about $300 (managed to get a class 3 taper roller and cup for the larger bottom bearing but had to use a standard one for the top bearing). Used Evapo-rust to get rid of the surface rust and the spindle socket came up a treat so I got lucky there. Gave it a paint job and it came up pretty well, it runs nice and quiet, no gear noise from the bevel gears so I'm rapt with it .
Drove over to his place to pick it up and yes the place is a bit of a nightmare, he's got a lot of crap but there would be a few gems in there. Case in point, I asked about any other Nichols parts he might have and he mentioned he had a piece that went on the upper vertical slide (Nichols mills have two vertical slides, a normal knee and an upper slide that works on a rack and pinion).
It turned out to be the hydro-check assembly for controlling the descent of the top slide,the X axis and top slide are powered by air rams and controlled by an oil filled unit. I'd been looking for this part too and had resigned myself to making one, $35 what a score :U.
As a couple of the other posters have mentioned, getting a vertical head for your Horizontal mill is going to take a fair amount of luck and/or work. Fingers crossed for you :)
I'll try and add some photos to this post, see how we go as I haven't done that before.197581

197582

197583

197584

[4-6-4]

Greetings chaps, I once owned a Richmond Mill This was a semi production machine and was built for midgets to operate. it had a fast and low speed on the machine and a two belt C section V belt on a 3 step pulley inside the column. This was a fair cow to change speeds. But to the point when I got it there was a Vertical and a Slotting head adapted to it. These two items had Chinese character cast into each piece. On the photos above you can see a round disk on the column of the mill behind the arbour. This is the locator for a vertical head. The nitty gritty of the deal is the drive inside the vertical head. The drive from the nose is pretty easy but I have not tackled the construction of one and my mill has a vertical and a slotting head. 4-6-4

[Dave J]

Wow you did a nice job on that, came up well.:2tsup::2tsup:
The mill looks good as well.

Dave

[Gary S]

Thanks Dave, the mill was an ebay purchase from a few months ago. Wasn't sure what to expect when I went to pick it up but the slides are in perfect nick. It's still got all the original scraping marks on the slides, even the X axis where all the work's done. I reckon it's only done a few hundred hours work and just sat there for the last thirty years.
It has 16 toggle switches on the side and these are used to program it for simple operations ie: head down - table forward - head up - table back - wait for start. It also has an index feature on a trip switch which can be used to pneumatically open or close a vice or rotate a jig/fixture.
I'll post a couple of pics of the whole machine.
197647
197648
I'm seriously running out of room for cat swinging :D

[Greg Q]

I am really glad that Nicholas had that rare head just waiting for you. Yours is exactly the situation that required you to buy and restore. Good job on the restoration. Neat mill too.

Greg

[Dave J]

Your running out of room, I can see floor space in yours, LOL

Thats a really nice and unique mill.:2tsup::2tsup:
If you get the time could you post up some more close up pictures of your mill and controls etc in the mill thread? The more the better, as I for one would be interested in seeing them and I am sure a lot of others would too.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/show-us-your-mill-121568/index10.html

Dave

[RayG]

Hi Gary,

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on a great restoration. :2tsup:

I can help with your space problem, get smaller cats, or shorter rope.. :)

Regards
Ray

[Gary S]

Thanks for that guys.
I'll try and take some more picks of the Nichols and my other mills and add them to the show us your mill (http://http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/show-us-your-mill-121568/index10.html) thread.
I'm up to seven now :oo: but I only really use four, the Nichols, two Schaublin 13s, and a Gambin 1M which is a large universal French mill with an all angle head (perhaps my favorite machine :)), a bit different to the Huron design of universal head.
No room in the shed for the Gambin so I like to indulge in alfresco machining on sunny days.

[Gary S]

Hmm the ROFL was supposed to be a :) smile

[seafurymike]

Gary,

That is really a nice mill. Want to swap?


So, my mill came from NMIT TAFE as surplus as they just got some grants to update the mills. They also spent big on lathes. To bad as they have no students anymore due to the changes in the subsidy.


So, a question.
The important thing I should know I suppose is the size of the shaft coming out from the machine. This would govern the mill head really?


Ps: I didn't know there was a show us your mill section.

[PDW]

Gary,

That is really a nice mill. Want to swap?


So, my mill came from NMIT TAFE as surplus as they just got some grants to update the mills. They also spent big on lathes. To bad as they have no students anymore due to the changes in the subsidy.


So, a question.
The important thing I should know I suppose is the size of the shaft coming out from the machine. This would govern the mill head really?

Not really. Of the 3 VH's I've bought over the years, only 1 came with the drive shaft to fit the horizontal spindle, and I don't think it's the correct length anyway.

It is useful to know what taper your horizontal spindle has because if it's ISO 40, there's tons of tooling around on Ebay etc. Makes it a lot easier to fab something up if you don't have to make the entire drive shaft.

The other reason is, it also is a lot more economic to tool up for *one* taper not 2 (or 4 or more). So you give preference to a VH with the same taper as your horizontal spindle, all other things being equal (like, more than 1 head to choose from).

Basically there are 3 things to take into consideration in doing this, assuming the head isn't a bolt-on job from the same manufacturer.

1. Drive to the VH. You'll need to make a stub shaft of some type, horizontal spindle taper on one end, whatever is needed to drive the head on the other.

2. Spacer off the vertical slideway. You want the VH spindle more or less in the centre of the Z axis table travel for max utilisation. You may also have to machine a circular T groove to mount the head for swivelling if it doesn't come with this part. You will need to think of how you're going to get the head spindle at exact right angles to the ways in both planes. This can be fun....

3. Clamp/bolt arrangement to the mill. Is there a tapped hole pattern on the mill? Does the head need to clamp to the dovetails? How do you ensure it aligns with the horizontal spindle so the stub shaft doesn't have any side loads on it?

Realistically the last 2 items end up being a weldment of some type then machined but you need to consider them separately IMO.

PDW

[Gary S]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the offer but I think I'll stick with the Nichols :), it's not really designed for doing one off jobs so it wouldn't suit a lot of members needs anyway.
As PDW says, the shaft size isn't that important but it's easier if the V + H tapers match so you don't have to double up on tooling.
You would need some sort of drive arrangement between the two that gives a bit of play, if it's a solid link you could be putting a constant strain on the spindle bearings if the unit isn't aligned absolutely perfectly with the horizontal spindle.
Here's a couple of pics of the stub shafts from one of the Schaublin 13s (30Int taper with a gear driver) and the Nichols (40 Int taper with an internal spline drive).
197849
197850
197851

[seafurymike]

Thanks Gary,

Pictures help me as im a visual person. Yep i see what your getting at.
Thanks for the heads up on loading the bearings.

[seafurymike]

Well guys,

Been a while but i have managed to score a Bridgeport head in really nice condition for a bargain. See if you hold out you can get stuff at reasonable prices.

I fitted a VFD to the head and it works like a dream. Now i need to make a conversion plate to accept the head. I found a few interesting links so i need to think about the best way to approach the conversion so i get the best rigidity possible.

Links I found useful so far:

This is a great link to a conversion where he created a swivel head.
The Home Machinist! • View topic - Converting a horizontal machine to a vertical (http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=88937)

Interesting link showing the bridgeport method of adapting their heads to horizontal mills
Page Title (http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/page12.html)

This is different. Gets the height into the unit and allows it to move in and out
Tom Senior with Bridgeport head (http://www.anf.nildram.co.uk/workshop/major/major.html)

/M