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Mattpwalker
5th February 2012, 12:03 PM
Hi to the forum's. I've got a problem that I'd really appreciate some help with.
I've got an Elu DB180 woodlathe that I picked up second hand 12 years ago. Its not a fancy bit of kit but it does the job for my hobby turning.
Anywho, A mate of mine has a vicmark VM100 that I've been lucky enough to have on loan while he's working in Canada. We got someone to fabricate a joiner to change the thread guage so that the VM100 would fit on my lathe.

Well, i went to remove it the other day and it won't come off. Usually it comes off with a tap from a hammer but I've gone to town on it and it won't budge. I'm bending the insertable handle when I try to remove it.

The biggest issue that I have is that there's no braking pin on this lathe to lock the spindle in place so usually I just hold the gear wheels but the amount of force I'm putting on the chuck is too much to hold it by hand. I tried clamping the gear wheel but this resulted in the wheel coming off as its thread runs in the same direction as that which takes the chuck off.

I'm pretty stuck and I'm not sure there's much I can do. I'll put another post with what I've tried below with some pics but if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them. Failing ideas I need some recommendations on who might be able to help seperate the headstock from the chuck.

Many thanks, Matt Walker

Mattpwalker
5th February 2012, 12:40 PM
I've tried the following.


Hammer on insertable handle
First I'd tried my usual method of simply putting the insertable handle into the adapter ring, holding the gear wheel by hand and tapping with a hammer. This didn't work. Tried hitting it hard and started to bend the handle.
Drill-bit in spindle
There's a small hole in the top of the headstock which leads down into the spindle. I tried putting a drillbit in there and then hitting the insertable handle with the hammer. Drill bit broke :(. Had to unmount the headstock from the lathe bed and upend it to let the broken bit drop out.
Clamped gear wheel
I clamped the gear wheel with a long tbar clamp and some wood blocks to try and hold the spindle in place. This worked well and I thought it granted success but it turned out that the wheel had just come undone. The thread must have run in the same direction as that on the front of the headstock.


See below for a series of photos of the lathe with the chuck on.

https://picasaweb.google.com/MattPWalker/RandomPublicImages?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Cliff Rogers
5th February 2012, 01:04 PM
If you remove the drive pulley, is there any thing on that end of the shaft that you could put a spanner of a set of vice grips on without damaging the thread?

I have freed up stuck chucks by clamping a long item like a big screw driver across the jaws so that one end stick right out & then hit that with a mallet.

Mattpwalker
5th February 2012, 01:56 PM
Hi Cliff. Thanks for the suggestion.

There is a small part of shaft that is threadless that i may be able to clamp onto but its only 10mm wide so its not much surface area to grip. I've got to buy some vice grips this afternoon to try to clamp onto part of shaft. Fingers crossed.

Ideally id like to remove the drive shaft to access the hole that runs through the shaft (putting something through this hole seems like the best way to lockdown the shaft) but I don't think I can remove the drive shaft fully from the headstock as the screws to allow this are behind the adapter ring and I can't fit the flat head screw driver in there to release it.

Treecycle
5th February 2012, 02:02 PM
Matt, you say you put a drill bit down the hole in the headstock and broke it off. Does this mean there is a hole drilled in the shaft to lock it?
If so, you should be able to put a pin punch (http://www.blackwoods.com.au/PartDetail.aspx?part_no=07238503)in there if you have one, or cut off the thread of a capscrew (http://www.blackwoods.com.au/Products.aspx?NavDS=Nrc:id-4%7cid-99999,Nea:True,N:202003612) or other high tensile bolt so that you only have the unthreaded section left and insert that in there to lock the spindle. These are 2 things that are not going to break off in the hole. A drill is hard, but also brittle.
You can then proceed as suggested by Cliff with an object through the jaws and a sharp strike with a hammer. Do not strike with full blooded blows as this could cause damage to other components. Short sharp strikes is all that is required.
If there were some flats on the shaft behind the pulley, that would be the best place to grip the shaft.
Good luck

turnerted
5th February 2012, 04:02 PM
Matt
Try clamping a bit of hardwood about 400mm long horizontally across the jaws . Hold the shaft the best way you can then give the end of the wood a good wack with a hammer .
When you eventually do get it off, cut a washer from an icecream container lid and put on the shaft before you screw the chuck back on .
Good luck
Ted

Mattpwalker
5th February 2012, 04:24 PM
Well I tried to use a bolt as a pin through the drive shaft.
It bent :). Was lucky to get the famed thing out.
Pics here.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pkfx6tJSIrIWiufR9OW8B9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=email

I'll try the block of wood in the chuck and a set of vice grips on the unthreaded part of the shaft outboard.

Treecycle
5th February 2012, 04:50 PM
A mild steel bolt like you have used will bend very easily. You will need to use a high tensile bolt or the punch. Make sure what ever you use it is a neat fit in the hole.

Mattpwalker
5th February 2012, 05:19 PM
No good gentleman.

I'm now doing more harm than good.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/B0CardPX6WOeqCdZBHVWftMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0

The vice grips started to cut into the spindle and after all the additional force that the attempts above gave me there's still no sign of it budging

Unfortunately the local hardware store didn't have any pin punches and the centre punches were too large in diameter to fit in the hole.

Time to call in the pros. Can someone reccomend who I could take the headstock to to help me get it off. What type of business would be best suited?

Thanks again.

old pete
5th February 2012, 06:59 PM
Hi Turnerted,

You are on the money there. A couple of years ago at school one of the kids put on a Vicmarc 140 and did it up about one turn on the spindle thread before hitting the go button. It was on a Tough lathe with 1' 10 TPI thread and believe me that sucker was tight. After trying all those tricks in this thread and others except heating the chuck body round the thread I dismantled the headstock and emerged with the full spindle shaft and chuck attached. I took this to a machine shop where the machinist made noises to the effect that school kids should be abolished to which sally I felt it difficult to respond in anything but the positive.

Anyway he wrapped the smooth part of the spindle with a sort of flexible split collet affair so the spindle didn't get damaged and secured it super tight with the assistance of a 1200 length of pipe as a lever in the head stock of a huge old fashioned lathe. Next job was to put a length of tool steel about 15mm sq. across the chuck jaws and do up the jaws and gently turn the job to where the tool steel was against the lathe bed. Then with the lathe in reverse and on the lowest available speed hit the green followed immediately by the red and the job's done. Total time 10 minutes if that. The cost was a box of VB cause the boss was out drumming up paying customers.

Since that experience I now apply a 6mm plywood washer to the inboard end of the head stock spindle in the belief that in the event of another such episode I can chisel out the washer with a 4mm chisel to release the chuck. I haven't needed to do that as yet but no doubt the time will come.

Good luck with it but that sort of problem is the daily bread of metal machinists and fitters in jobbing shops. They have the methods!!


Cheers Old Pete



Matt
Try clamping a bit of hardwood about 400mm long horizontally across the jaws . Hold the shaft the best way you can then give the end of the wood a good wack with a hammer .
When you eventually do get it off, cut a washer from an icecream container lid and put on the shaft before you screw the chuck back on .
Good luck
Ted

issatree
5th February 2012, 07:41 PM
Hi Matt, & all,
It is like most have already said, if you can stop the spindle from turning, & put a hunk of steel across the jaws, give it a not to hard a whack & maybe it will loosen.
A bit of CRC or the like & maybe a bit of heat via a Hot Air Gun might also do the trick.

I have a " Tough " Lathe, & I use the Older Black Nova Chucks, Steel to Steel, never had a problem with removing them.
In saying that, I always clean the base of the Chuck as well as the surface of the Spindle.
When I remove them, I have made my Indexing Pin & Holes bigger, & always use a 13in, x 1/2in piece of round bar across the jaws, give it a bit of a whack with my hand & it loosens.
If you keep using the holes in the Body of the Chuck, they will eventually Elongate the Holes & they will go Oval.

Metalman
6th February 2012, 09:55 AM
Hello Matt,
I recently scrapped a faulty lathe like yours, if you break anything PM me and I will see what I can find. Cost would be postage only. From memory, removing the spindle from the head casting was an awkward operation.
Regards Mm.

Ozkaban
6th February 2012, 12:18 PM
Good luck with the removal. I've had some trouble in the past, but nothing that a bit of violence (the next stage after brute force :D ) couldn't fix.

As others have said, a washer between the headstock and the chuck works a treat. I use a bit of cut up plastic chopping board. never had any problems since.

Cheers,
Dave

old pete
6th February 2012, 01:37 PM
Hi Mattpw,

There's a disturbing number of later posts on this thread advocating to use of massive force to free up a very tight chuck. What is required to get the job done is a moderate force applied as an impact not as a steadily applied and increasing force.

When the force is applied out at the end of the spindle where it is already eroded in strength and effective diameter by the threading and taper cutting process and leverage is at its max. I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to damage the spindle in terms of its straightness and that's absolutely to be avoided cause there's nothing worse than a lathe with a whooppee in the drive shaft unless perhaps you turn a lot of cabriole legs!!

I was going to add that you will also need a box of spare headstock bearings handy but more likely you won't cause you won't be able to get the worn ones off to replace them.

Trust me try my method it works

Cheers Old Pete

Tim the Timber Turner
6th February 2012, 03:06 PM
My method

Lock up spindle with the best means avaliable.

Grab hold of the chuck/insert with the best means avaliable.

Apply as much force as possiable to try to undo.

While doing this take a 20mm solid steel rod and a 4lb hammer and apply a shock load directly to the insert at 90 degrees to the shaft.:oo:

Two people make this easy.

Remember apply shock load while trying to unscrew.

Always worked for me.:2tsup:

Cheers

Tim:)

PS. If that fails send me an airline ticket (Qantas prefered) and I'll have a go for you.:U

Cliff Rogers
6th February 2012, 10:25 PM
$230 will buy you a new chuck for your mate, you just have to leave that one where it is. :D

vk4
7th February 2012, 09:34 AM
vicmarc are in CLONTARF , and VERMAC, in REDCLIFFE , take the lot down to 1 of them and for a small cost they should be able to separate the 2 .

Jeff

rsser
8th February 2012, 12:41 PM
Yeah, that's a good option.

...

What you are calling the insert tool, and the socket it goes into in the chuck insert, are not a good match on my VM chucks. The rod slops around and bends easily enough.

At a guess the root problem is the spindle adaptor. It's binding. The thread match here is critical. Is there any way you can squirt some WD40 into it?

If you have 1cm clear on the spindle on the outboard side, I'd suggest you get a small pipe wrench on that section and a larger pipe wrench on the chuck insert (the inboard part with the socket). Pipe wrenches are cheap and bind more the harder you lever. They'll leave marks but that should just be a cosmetic problem. On the outboard side you may have to go to a size of wrench that overlaps the thread, trashing a bit of that but a triangular file will help to clean it up before spinning the pulley back on.

Good luck with it.

Paul39
13th February 2012, 11:37 AM
Here are exploded views of an Elu 180 lathe:

Elu Lathe | Spare Parts & Spares | Tools and Parts Direct (http://www.toolsandpartsdirect.co.uk/Spare-Parts/Elu-Spare-Parts/Wood-Working/Lathes-and-Morticers/Lathes__c-p-0-0-1-240-262-265-266.aspx)

Just to be sure, the chuck unscrews counterclockwise looking at the face of the chuck from the tailstock.

My preferred method of removing chucks, faceplates, rusted in place is to:

Put reference marks with a lead pencil or a small scratch on the chuck and spindle to see if you have movement.

Spray or dribble liberally WD-40, penetrating oil, alternate auto transmission oil and ether engine starter, or your preferred "mouse milk".

With a small brass hammer 6 - 8 ounces, tap, tap, tap, around and around the part right at the thread. Add more juice and repeat, more juice and leave overnight.

Next day repeat above, position a stout piece of timber in the chuck leaving about 12 inches sticking out at about the 10 o'clock position facing the chuck. Tighten the drive pulley on the spindle securely and lock the spindle by tightly winding clothes line rope between the spindle pulley and the body of the headstock.

Further make a wedge of soft wood and gently drive it between the pulley and anything that will bind it. You could also put the belt on the largest step on the spindle pulley and wrap clothesline tightly around the loop of belt going to the motor.

Get a heat gun, hair dryer, or propane torch and warm the chuck until it is too hot to touch. If you heat until a drop of water quickly turns to steam that is around 212 F.

Get a piece of 1/2 water pipe or a 1/2 or 5/8 in rebar and whack the piece of timber sticking out of the chuck very quickly, like a very fast karate chop. Give it two or three good whacks.

Check your reference marks, if you have any movement at all, it is coming off. Keep whacking and moving the timber in the chuck until it becomes loose enough to unscrew by hand.

If this session does not get it off , more juice, heat, tap, tap, tap, heat, repeat. Soak, leave overnight.

You may find that the setscrews or nut holding the drive pulley on the spindle slip. Keep an eye out for that if the timber moves but the reference points stay the same.

Good luck and success.

rsser
13th February 2012, 12:43 PM
Good info Paul :2tsup:

vk4
29th February 2012, 07:29 PM
Matt,

How is the problem , have you managed to separate the CHUCK and HEADSTOCK??

Jeff
vk4