17 Leblond restoration?

[Ueee]

I've noticed this machine on ebay for a while now, its almost too cheap to pass up. Large Metal Lathe 17 LeBlond make great wood lathe | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Large-Metal-Lathe-17-LeBlond-make-great-wood-lathe-/250994164214?pt=AU_Hardware&hash=item3a706b01f6)

Any comments on the idea of restoring would be appreciated. It would be a big job, but very possibly worth it. The biggest problem would be moving it......

[morrisman]

I think it has potential to be a nice lathe . But it would cost a small fortune to move it , like minimum of $1000 . Cranes would be needed at both ends too load/unload it And , you would need a big shed to keep it in . Older Le Blonds have a very good reputation from what I understand . I used a newer le Blond at TAFE , about the same size as that one . Mike

[Bryan]

"Would make a great wood lathe" could be read as 'unfit for intended purpose'. Very close inspection advised.

[Dave J]

About 20 years ago I nearly bought a lathe like that, but now think back I am glad I didn't. The thing that killed the whole deal was getting a truck crane.

If this is your first you would be better off with a smaller lathe. This one wont have any sort of top speed for carbide and small jobs.

Dave

[Ueee]

I do already have a smaller 10 x 28 machine but would like a larger machine. However moving this would be a far bigger job than the seller makes it out to be. The bed alone is 2600mm long and god knows how heavy. It caught my interest as leblonds tend to be made like tanks......and apparently just as heavy. :(

[Dave J]

I had a Hercus at the time I looked at that one, but ended up buying a 12 x 36 lathe some years latter, and it does most ever job I need to do. Sometimes I with I had a bit bigger lathe, but I think no matter what size lathe you have you will always say that, LOL

Dave

[Ueee]

Oh dear, Another machine.....:doh:
When the seller offered to transport it for $300, and sent me some 20 good close up pics i couldn't say no.
I don't think i'm quite prepared for the size of this one, just the thought that i could probably bolt my 10" x 28" in it and spin it round is a bit scarey.:o
It does seem to be missing the original compound slide, but has a rather home made (or
"agricultural" as my father would say) one. otherwise it is very complete, has original belt driven coolant pump but only a faceplate, so i'll probably spend more on chucks than the machine.
Now i just have to wait till next Friday, or maybe even the one after.:C

[Dave J]

A new machine day is always a good day. Let us know what it's like when you get it, and don't forget the pictures.:2tsup:

Dave

[morrisman]

Oh dear, Another machine.....:doh:
When the seller offered to transport it for $300, and sent me some 20 good close up pics i couldn't say no.
I don't think i'm quite prepared for the size of this one, just the thought that i could probably bolt my 10" x 28" in it and spin it round is a bit scarey.:o
It does seem to be missing the original compound slide, but has a rather home made (or
"agricultural" as my father would say) one. otherwise it is very complete, has original belt driven coolant pump but only a faceplate, so i'll probably spend more on chucks than the machine.
Now i just have to wait till next Friday, or maybe even the one after.:C

Make sure you take some piccies of the unloading process and post them here

Mike

[Ueee]

Here are some of the pics the seller sent me:

The size of it all still eludes me. The spindle nose looks all innocent and small, but from all the internet trawling i've done it should be 2 7/8" 5tpi. Just look at the leadscrew compared to the 3 phase plug, and the thickness of locking plate under the tailstock.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond/8050-p1010403.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond/8052-p1010412.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond/8051-p1010404.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond/8053-p1010408.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond/8056-p1010407.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond/8054-p1010414.jpg


The last pic is of the interesting backgear arrangement. The belt drive LeBlonds have a double back gear, clutch operated, so three belt speeds gives you 9 speeds total.

There also seems to be lube all over the place, hopefully a good sign, its hard to tell with all the dust.

Ewan

[Bryan]

It's certainly an impressive lump. Here's hoping there's life in the old girl yet. Will be watching with interest.

[Dave J]

Agree that is a big lathe.:2tsup:

Dave

[morrisman]

Ewan

You should be able to machine car flywheels on that machine :?

There would be a good value in its scrap weight as well . Not that you would ever consider going down that route :o

mike

[Dave J]

Ewan

You should be able to machine car flywheels on that machine :?

There would be a good value in its scrap weight as well . Not that you would ever consider going down that route :o

mike

You should fit truck flywheels on that one.

Dave

[pipeclay]

Was that a loose thread of belting around the joiner,was that a trolley jack on the floor was that a link belt running on the power coed.

[Ueee]

Was that a loose thread of belting around the joiner,was that a trolley jack on the floor was that a link belt running on the power coed.

I think that's yes to all three. The link belt runs the coolant pump. I am not so worried about the belt my local industrial supply place sells it- my 10 x 28 is a flat belt drive too.

[Ueee]

Hi,
Well she's home!
I took plenty of pics, maybe too many but here are some of them.

Unfortunately no pics of the unload, as soon as the forklift turned up and we pulled the tarp of her it started to bucket down so it was all a bit of a rush to get her inside.

Inside and on pallets
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229634&d=1330731841
Note the wd-40, not the best choice but the only thing i had handy to spray on all the bare metal surfaces to get the water off. Luckily there is lots of thick old oil everywhere aswell.

My "apprentice" trying to convince me he's big enough to use the machine
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229640&d=1330732010

Although the 2 ton engine crane could just pick her up, there was no way it would roll....
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229649&d=1330732629

Spindle speed chart, from a lazy 13rpm to 300rpm, also has a diameter guide for the speeds

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229637&d=1330731841

Gearbox plaque, 32 pitches from 3 (yes 3!) tpi to 48 tpi

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229652&d=1330732629

Thread counter built into saddle

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229636&d=1330731841

Gear train. The bottom gear is missing one tooth

http://www.woodworkforums.com/album.php?albumid=783&attachmentid=229640

Larger back gear, missing 2 teeth, i havnt checked the two gears on the main spindle yet.

Apron, surfacing and sliding is reversible from here, it is also clutched but it doesnt seem to want to stay engaged currently.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229660&d=1330732943

Countershaft unit

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229659&d=1330732943

Clutch on countershaft

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229651&d=1330732629

Motor plaque-5hp 3 phase (yes i am lucky enough to have 3 phase)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229658&d=1330732943

Machine from the back, you can make out my HM50 and Conrik tailstock in the background

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229633&d=1330731841


please continue to next post.....

[Ueee]

Now some picks to give you an idea of the size.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8121-imag0338.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8122-imag0339.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8130-imag0351.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8131-imag0352.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8124-imag0342.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8123-imag0341.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8133-imag0359.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8134-imag0360.jpg http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8119-imag0335.jpg
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8112-imag0325.jpg

Yes thats a 32mm spanner...

And finally,

Typical! My "apprentice" falls asleep on the job:)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8127-imag0346.jpg

Thats it for now.

The bed is warn, as to be expected, but it seem to be warn evenly all the way along. There are no tight spots any where, it feels great even with no cleaning, lubing etc.

Ewan

[Anorak Bob]

Tuckered out after a day helping Dad. Love it!

[Ueee]

Tuckered out after a day helping Dad. Love it!

He wasn't the only one that was tuckered out!

[morrisman]

Holy Moly

That's some machine :U

The bed looks Ok in the pics . You must have some big projects planned .

Mike

[Dave J]

Good to see it home and safe, and thanks for the pictures. Like Bob I love that picture of your young bloke asleep.

I have my daughter and little 1 year old grandson living with us, and hope he will be a shed type of kid. My son was but he is grown up and I have lost my helper years ago and I now do his jobs. I have another 3 grandsons, that live 3 doors down aged 6,8 and 12, but the video games have got them, so unless I get some CNC machines I wont see them in the shed, LOL.

It did have me worried when he was standing near the lathe when it was on pallets, and brought back a flashback I had with my son.
I was painting safes for a guy around 12 years ago and decided to take my son along one day in the holidays, he kept coming over close to me and I kept sending him away as these safes weighed around 1.2 ton and where on a pallet. With the door open it was squashing the pallet at the front, so we put blocks of wood under them, but I still was ready to run if need be. Anyway the next day when he was not there a safe went over, no one was hurt, but I thought back to my son being there, and it still to this day it's always in the back of my mind of what could have happened if the pallet had given way when he was there.

Keep us updated on your progress

Dave

[Ueee]

I sent an email on Saturday to LeBlond regarding the serial number and i got a reply this morning, here is the pointy end of it:

This machine is so old we could not find any records on it, the best we could come up with is that it was manufactured in 1915. No parts or manuals would be available any longer for this old LeBlond heavy duty lathe. I presume that the lathe stills runs and machines parts, I guess they built them to last back in the day.

Well my guess of 30's or 40's was a little off, but i don't have to wait long for her 100th birthday do I! I

I have moved her into the back of the shed so she has the company of my other metal machines, got the countershaft unit up, lubed the bearings and gave her a run. Its the quietest machine i have ever heard, the only real noise is the tick, tick, tick of the belt joiner.
I also cleaned and lubed the bed, and i must say its a absolute pleasure to move the saddle. If you leave the handwheel handle at the top of its swing, gravity is enough to pull the handle down and move the saddle. :2tsup:Each rotation of the wheel equals 1" of travel.

The bad news is the clutch is stuck on, although i may have scraped some silicone off the outside of the plates, so maybe it could have been slipping and some bright spark stuck the plates together. Then again it could just have been old dry grease i scraped off...:?
The other bad news is the faceplate provided is not from the machine. She will swing 440mm and has a 2 5/8 5tpi nose, the faceplate is 460mm and 2 7/8 6tpi. Hmmm interesting....

I did work out a better way to move her than using both the palled jack and crane

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229668&d=1330996425

My young fella is still convinced he's big enough to use her....

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229669&d=1330996425


Ewan

[Dave J]

LOL, thats how I moved my 12 x 36 lathe around before I put wheels on it. It had a steel cabinet under it, so I just slipped the pallet jack under it like you have done.

Not so good news about the clutch (or the face plate for that matter), but on these old machines it should be pretty simple to fix or make something up. I hate when people put gear with a machine that doesn't fit it.
It sounds like your gibs need doing up a bit if the handle works it's way down.
Doesn't look as big in that picture for some reason, but will make a nice old lathe to use. Lets face it, if it has ran for this many years, your son will get his wish of running it and will probably inherit it when he gets older.

Dave

[morrisman]

If you register and post a query on this forum:

Antique Machinery and History - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/)

you might find somebody in the USA with the same lathe

Mike

[Anorak Bob]

Ewan,

Have you looked at the illustrations of early Le Blonds on Tony's website? Look mighty like yours.

Page Title (http://www.lathes.co.uk/leblond/index.html)

And he has a manual reprint for some early lathes but probably not early enough. The Regal is a lighter lathe than your behemoth but some features may be similar.

ML71A LeBLOND REGAL Lathes first types from early 1930s to early 1940s. An operation manual: "Running a Regal". This first LeBlond Regal handbook that deals, in a very comprehensive way, with all sizes of "Regal" lathes made during that period. (72 pages, small format). £30.
.

BT

[Ueee]

LOL, thats how I moved my 12 x 36 lathe around before I put wheels on it. It had a steel cabinet under it, so I just slipped the pallet jack under it like you have done.

I also had to chock between the chip tray and bed so the tray didn't just bend in half (having said that its pretty thick)

[Ueee]

Ewan,

Have you looked at the illustrations of early Le Blonds on Tony's website? Look mighty like yours.
BT

Thanks Bob, i have had a quick look, but you are right its very very similar. I think maybe his pics are slightly older, only because of the toothed clutch in the apron, and the lack of dog clutch on the feed shaft. Otherwise most of the details seem to be spot on.

Ewan

[Ueee]

Mike,
I have searched that particular forum for info, but sadly havent found much. I will take up your idea and post there though.
Rean

[Ueee]

I had a few minutes this arvo so i pulled the apron off.

I'm trying to post as many pics as i think i need to, with descriptions for 2 reasons, so i don't forget what i did, and so if anyone else in the world decides to do what i am there is some info. I have scoured the net and found very little.

these 2 guides and gibs run against the front edge of the bed. The gibs have been built up with braze :o so i'll need to make some new ones. I can see i'm going to need to learn to scrape. If only i had the time and money to come to melbourne.:no:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8151-imag0369.jpg

Two halves of the dog clutch. Its in such good shape i dont think its been disengaged under load once:U

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8152-imag0370.jpg

The bearing and gear from the LH end of the leadscrew (missing the retaining nut from the pic- i think its still jammed in the socket) The gear is 2 3/8 PCD 8DP.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8153-leadscrew-lh-end-parts.jpg

A couple of the workings of the apron. All the gears are 10DP. the gear that drives the saddle is camed so any backlash can be adjusted out. The feed clutch is engaged by screwing a nob (something you dont say everyday) in which drives the cone shaped clutch faces together. To disengage all you have to do is grab the nob (he we go again) and the feed will unscrew it. So simple but looks like it will work great.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8155-imag0375.jpg

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8154-imag0374.jpg

The feed and lead screws up against the HM50. I'd bet more care went into those 2 screws than the whole mill. feed is 7/8", lead is 2 7/16" 4tpi

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8156-imag0376.jpg

Ewan

[RayG]

Hi Ewan,

Congratulations on the new lathe, as far a project machines go, you've got a ripper! :2tsup:

Not only a great bit of history that's worth preserving, but a machine that will do well at everything within it's scope.

Now, just practice the mantra... "they don't make em like that anymore"... and repeat... :D

I'm looking forward to watching the restoration process.. (are you down for the scraping course?)... you might need some of those skills...

Regards
Ray

[Ueee]

I'm looking forward to watching the restoration process.. (are you down for the scraping course?)... you might need some of those skills...


Ray,
Unfortunately, as much as I'd love to come down for the course, I've just blown my spending money, and running a business and having 2 kids under 2 doesn't leave me with many opportunities to duck away for a weekend. One day.....
Ewan

[Ueee]

I pulled the apron to bits today. Everything came out relatively easily (once i worked out how it was held in anyway).

Pics of the parts, the rule is 6" long

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8163-imag0385.jpg

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8162-imag0386.jpg

The half nuts appear to have been replaced before and are in pretty good shape:2tsup:. The two small bevel gears that allow the feed to be reversed also appear to be non original. The main bevel gear is still in good shape, as is the clutch facings(other side of bevel gear and the large disk and shaft directly above bevel gear) as you can see the clutch has a very steep angle.

The only thing i want to know is how on earth did all that fit in the apron:?

The plunger that gives you surfacing or sliding still bears the stamping "Cross feed" (partly visible in pic) "Chasing" and "Length feed" It will take some careful cleanup to preserve the Length feed stamping, but i will try my darnedest! As you can see by the knurling, this old girl has seen some use.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8160-imag0382.jpg

Ewan

[Ueee]

Ok, so i've spent 10 min here, 20 min there over the last week and got some more stuff done.

I've cleaned all the apron parts, and put them with their "close friends" in snap lock bags with a bit of thin oil. Its the best way i could think of to keep the parts in groups and to stop rust.(anyone got any better ideas?)

Clean parts in baggy
http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8261-imag0398.jpg

Gearbox- from the rear with 2 shafts already removed (its upside down aswell)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8258-imag0387.jpg

the 2 shafts

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8259-imag0389.jpg

All the gearbox parts in order- top left is the gear driven from the main spindle, this then drives the long gear, selector gear and cluster of 8 gears. This then drives either one of 3 conventional gears, or the slowest speed, which is always meshed and engages via dog clutch. the "lump" at the very end of the final shaft is the clutch that drives the feed shaft. The gear that drives the leadscrew can be slid out of mesh so the screw doesn't turn during regular work. (i think that all made sense)
It was quite a PITA to get the barrel selector out, as everything had to be removed off it before it could come out of the casting.
the rule is 30cm

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8262-imag0400.jpg

Finally, the main selector gear, the only single width gear in the box that is driving at all times. Well I call it a gear. It looks more like a throwing star.....:C

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/74282-ueee/albums/leblond-now-home/8263-imag0401.jpg

I really do wonder how many millions (or more?) times that gear has gone round.Its definitely time for retirement.

Ewan

[Log]

Tis coming along good Ueee, keep up the good work.:2tsup: Hope your apprentice keeps you on the ball.:D

Cheers.

If I'm not right, then I'm wrong, I'll just go bend some more bananas.

[Ueee]

Tis coming along good Ueee, keep up the good work.:2tsup: Hope your apprentice keeps you on the ball.:D

Cheers.

If I'm not right, then I'm wrong, I'll just go bend some more bananas.

Yes, my apprentice is being a great help, he usually runs off with the next thing i need- just like a typical first year!
I drew the line at letting him sniff petrol, oops i mean cleaning parts with me, hey i have to be a responsible parent occasionally.
He is great to have around, i was cutting dovetails today (by hand) and he went round afterwords and picked up all the chunks and put them in a neat pile on the bench.:) I didn't have the heart to try to explain to him that i didn't need those bits.

Ewan

[Ueee]

All this talk with Mark about his planner has got me a little motivated......

So i spend a few hours this arvo with the engine crane and removed her main spindle, back gear assembly and finally the head casting itself.

Firstly i removed the guards, they are cast iron and a lot heavier than i expected. This revealed the 6dp back gear's, all 6 of them. The bull has 74 teeth so comes in at 12.333" PCD. They are all in good shape except there are 2 teeth missing from the largest of the 2 rear gears, and the smallest driving gear is very worn, but it is brass/bronze, i'm not sure if maybe its a replacement after whatever caused the 2 teeth on its driven gear to go missing may have destroyed the original?

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1188Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1189Large.jpg

The bearing journals are scored a fair bit, even the babbitt (rear) one, even though the spindle is like a mirror. Like everything they are BIG....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1192Large.jpg

More pics.....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1193Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1196Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1198Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1199Large.jpg

The bed looks very naked with no head....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1197Large.jpg

The machining on the back gear spindle between bearing surfaces was cut at quite a rate...

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1202Large.jpg

Now to clean up all the grease and scum....

[Steamwhisperer]

Great pics Ewan.
Still watching this one with interest :2tsup:

Phil

[Ueee]

Rather than hijacking Ken's electrolysis thread, i thought i had better put this here where it belongs. Thanks again Ken for bringing up the idea of electrolysis, it may take some time but it will save me from some nasty messy work.

Here is the first guard once cleaned. I soaked it in a weak vinegar solution overnight as suggested in Kens thread. I then washed it with a brush and the hose (perfect job for a 35deg day) and finally dried and undercoated it. Having a fully insulated shed means its still in the low 20's inside so painting is no problem..:)
Now i will need to bog, sand etc before finishing. I was thinking of trying a spray putty, anyone have any suggestions or experience with the stuff?
In the stripping process i may have found the original colour, a dark gray, underneath the rather bad green spray job. I am still tilting towards semi gloss black though.....i might send another email to leblond and see if they have any colour records from the time.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1216Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1218Large.jpg

[morrisman]

I'd go for dark gray myself :rolleyes:

[Abratool]

Ewan
The Babbit bearings are interesting from a wear point of view.
The shaft appears to be in good condition, polished, yet the babbit bearings are scored.
What are your thoughts on the restoration of the bearings?
Its amazing how well they have stood up through such a long life.
Interesting stuff, babbit metal.
regards
Bruce

[Ueee]

Hi Bruce,
Yes it is amazing to think how well the bearings have lasted, but originally the lathe was made to use carbon steel tooling, so the top speed was only 300rpm. I have spent some time on the LeBlond Yahoo group and many guys are running the same bearings at 600+rpm, and they will do so just fine as long as they stay well oiled. I don't really plan on using carbide on this machine, so 600rpm gets me down to 3/4" at 100FPS. Any smaller and i have the little lathe.....
As for the scored bearings, i am hoping to pick Phils babbit knowledge when the time comes, but i think i will scrape both bottom halves of the bearings in, ensuring that the spindle remains level, and then scrape the top halves to fit. The other option of course is to re-pour the babbit, but i honestly haven't started looking into what method will be more suitable.

On another note the 2nd guard is stripped after only 24hours, much faster than the first one.....now the change gear banjo is in and bubbling away:U

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Bruce,
Yes it is amazing to think how well the bearings have lasted, but originally the lathe was made to use carbon steel tooling, so the top speed was only 300rpm. I have spent some time on the LeBlond Yahoo group and many guys are running the same bearings at 600+rpm, and they will do so just fine as long as they stay well oiled. I don't really plan on using carbide on this machine, so 600rpm gets me down to 3/4" at 100FPS. Any smaller and i have the little lathe.....
As for the scored bearings, i am hoping to pick Phils babbit knowledge when the time comes, but i think i will scrape both bottom halves of the bearings in, ensuring that the spindle remains level, and then scrape the top halves to fit. The other option of course is to re-pour the babbit, but i honestly haven't started looking into what method will be more suitable.

On another note the 2nd guard is stripped after only 24hours, much faster than the first one.....now the change gear banjo is in and bubbling away:U

Hi Ewan,
I am more than happy for you to pick away, limited as my knowledge is :). Don't forget that previous scoring can sometimes be known as oil grooves, not good ones, but grooves just the same:wink:.
I would even consider coming up to give you a hand if you choose to go down that path. I also have a heap of books on the subject if you are up for some 'light' reading.
I just happen to be coming your way for a short holiday in January. If you like I can bring the books with me.

Phil

[neksmerj]

Oh my god UEEE, I don't envy the job you have in front of you, it's a monster. I started my Hercus restoration years ago, and I'm still working on it.

How do you propose to repair the gears with broken teeth?

Have you got any pics of parts that went through the electrolysis process?

Good luck,

Ken

[Ueee]

Hi Ewan,
I am more than happy for you to pick away, limited as my knowledge is :). Don't forget that previous scoring can sometimes be known as oil grooves, not good ones, but grooves just the same:wink:.
I would even consider coming up to give you a hand if you choose to go down that path. I also have a heap of books on the subject if you are up for some 'light' reading.
I just happen to be coming your way for a short holiday in January. If you like I can bring the books with me.

Phil

Thank you Phil, that is a very generous offer. Any info on babbit bearings would be great, i really don't know anything about the stuff. I'll really need to get the bed done and leveled, reinstall the head and then get to work work on the spindle. I'm still waiting on my copy of MTR but i hope it has some info in it. I've just got R.C's plan plan plan echoing in my head so i'm trying to give myself lots of time to think things through.....


Oh my god UEEE, I don't envy the job you have in front of you, it's a monster. I started my Hercus restoration years ago, and I'm still working on it.

How do you propose to repair the gears with broken teeth?

Have you got any pics of parts that went through the electrolysis process?

Good luck,

Ken

Hi Ken,
Right now if someone asked me what my perfect job would be i would have to say bringing old machines back to life.....especially when i am doing it at a leisurely pace as i don't need a second lathe.....i just wanted one:U

The first of the 2 pics of the guard above is after the vinegar rinse, a wash and scrub with a brush. The raw cast surfaces stay black, only the places where the casting has been cleaned up are shiny. I'll take a few snaps of the banjo when it is done, it has machined surfaces so they will hopefully come out bright.

As for the damaged gears, i'm thinking along the lines of brazing in a row of pins where the tooth should be and then building the tooth back up with braze. Some time spent with some blue on another gear and a file should give me a good involute profile.

[Ueee]

Here is the banjo after 24 hours in the bath. I is stripped clean, i guess being a flat simple shape means there is no nooks and crannies to hide from the electrons.....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1240Large.jpg

I have put the tumble reverse casting and gears in complete now, just to see how it goes(to give you an idea the large gear is about 8" across). After 1 hour the top of the tub looked like a tar pit....
I had a check this evening (after say 7 hours) and the steel gears look great, most of the paint is gone and the CI gear is getting there. I'm not sure if i've just struck a lucky electrolyte mix or what but it seems to be working a treat.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1241Large.jpg

[Ueee]

The tumble reverse is done now, i left it in overnight and then pulled it to bits to finish it off. What i have noticed is the amps go down the cleaner the item gets. I thought it was the anodes getting mucky at first, but put a new dirty bit in and the amps go back up to 5 or 6.

Anyway, on to bogging and sanding......I have started by using car bog on all the obvious spots sanded it back. I picked up a liter tin of septone acrylic spray putty at supercheap, but rather than spraying it (not having a gun i would sacrifice for it) i just brushed it on. It seems to have worked a treat and i will sand it back in the next few days to see how it went.

A few things i will say though.....
The stuff stinks, worse than 2pac poly, thinners etc.....and it doesn't go away....
Once its on your hands it don't come off easy....i look a bit like a smurf right now (its blue)
It doesn't agree with rubber floor mats, i dripped some on one and it turned green and started eating through the rubber:o

Another trick that i stumbled across was an easy way to trim masking tape. Once stuck on, i was trying to use a stanley knife blade to trim the tape but it kept catching on dags on the casting, so i filed the dags off....except filing the edge you are trimming to you file straight through the tape and clean the dags up in one go! Remove the unwanted tape and voila!

[morrisman]

:)Ewan..is the bed of that lathe OK ? Does it need scraping ? You really are taking on a big job :p

[Ueee]

Hi Mike,
The only test i have done on the bed is dialing the saddle ways off the T/S. They show a 10thou or so dip at the head end. With a little luck i will be able to employ Mark Grays planner to do the bulk of the work, then scrape to a master. It is a huge job.....but setting a 2015 time limit means i can take it slow and steady. Although i already have several large jobs in the pipeline that i need her for.....

I have had the back gear shaft in the tub for the last few days, (whole) and decided this arvo to pull it out and try to disassemble it. It came apart much easier than i expected, pulled the small gear of with the 3 leg puller and once the clutches where both in neutral the other gears pretty well fell off (these need to spin free when not engaged).
The clutch is strange, i expected to see a tapered cone splined to the shaft and engaging in the gears, but instead each clutch is simply a ring with a wedge missing and a wedged shaped "piston" that is driven out into the ring by a tapered sliding key, thus expanding the rind and locking it inside a large bore in the gear. So simple! All the parts of each clutch are stamped with a number, 24 and 28 IIRC, original i guess

one of the rings and wedges still on the shaft

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1298Large.jpg

the 2 larger gears and clutch parts, biggest gear is about a foot dia

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1299Large.jpg

Close up of the clutch ring, wedge and tapered key.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1300Large.jpg

[neksmerj]

Hi Ueee.

Are you using washing soda as the electrolyte, the bango looks great.

What current and voltage are you using, if you know?

Ken

[Ueee]

Hi Ueee.

Are you using washing soda as the electrolyte, the bango looks great.

What current and voltage are you using, if you know?

Ken

Hi Ken,
Electrolyte is (guessing here) 1/3 washing soda : 2/3 caustic, or maybe 50:50? It is slowing down now though, i think its time for a replacement lot, there was no "tar pit" with the back gears.

Power is supplied by an old computer router switchmode unit, 12v 5A. The beauty of a switchmode driver is that you can not over do the current, it maxes out at about 6A and goes no higher, but doesn't switch off, like the battery chargers do. Fresh piece and clean anodes it hits the 6A mark, then slowly drops as the item gets cleaner to .5A or so.

[Ueee]

Its only been 9 months....but there are parts being cleaned now in the caustic mix left from the Rivett.

Ew

[andrew_mx83]

Hey Ew, another great machine and fantastic resto job. I am continually impressed by the lengths you go to pulling these things apart and really starting from scratch. We must catch up for a drink one day :-)

Apart from the size, the LeBlonde is light years ahead of my old Pitts in terms of design and construction even though they were only 20 odd years apart.


Keep up the good work!!

[Ueee]

20 years but WW1 came along and with that huge advances in most facets of engineering. If you look at most pre 1910 lathes they are all pretty similar to the pitts, then you find that they change to machines much more similar to what we have today. The biggest drawback is the spindle speeds they were designed to do.

Anyway, since i am in painting mode with the Rivett i thought i'd get in and do Blondie. too. I striped the countershaft off and thought about the best way to do the bed. I had an old 12v pump, which i know is all plastic internals....so a few bits of copper and brass and some hose and i have a sort of spray unit for the caustic soda. My elcheapo mag base and some cable ties and it works a treat. I put the saddle in the tray as well as i don't have a tub big enough.
I *think* she was black, then painted grey at some stage, then some resada green in some places......

As luck has it i was googling for colour ideas and found this SmokStak - View Single Post - An Older LeBlond lathe Comes Home (http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showpost.php?p=886744&postcount=9) it is the only other WW2 era HD i have found on the net. So black it is......

Ew

[Michael G]

As luck has it i was googling for colour ideas and found this SmokStak - View Single Post - An Older LeBlond lathe Comes Home (http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showpost.php?p=886744&postcount=9) it is the only other WW2 era HD i have found on the net. So black it is......

Yeah, but that one is a dark blue. You can't even suggest that it is light black.:?

Michael

[Ueee]

Yeah, but that one is a dark blue. You can't even suggest that it is light black.:?

Michael

Maybe...only thing i would say is Flash? it looks the same as mine was, which is definitely a sort of charcoal black. I am thinking either a charcoal or a REALLY dark blue, so dark at first glance it looks black.....

Ew

[Ueee]

I like this colour, but it may not be dark enough....need to find one in real life to look at.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=porsche+midnight+blue&client=firefox-a&hs=RGZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Zzw-UveYG-iAiQf31IDwCA&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=702&dpr=1.25#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=llbZvnyaxRH3YM%3A%3BmRkFjOVMbAQU3M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.porschepassion.com%252F997color%252Fmidnightblue_C2S_lg.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.porschepassion.com%252Fcolours997.htm%3B1000%3B611

Ew

[Oldneweng]

I like this colour, but it may not be dark enough....need to find one in real life to look at.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=porsche+midnight+blue&client=firefox-a&hs=RGZ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Zzw-UveYG-iAiQf31IDwCA&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=702&dpr=1.25#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=llbZvnyaxRH3YM%3A%3BmRkFjOVMbAQU3M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.porschepassion.com%252F997color%252Fmidnightblue_C2S_lg.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.porschepassion.com%252Fcolours997.htm%3B1000%3B611

Ew

Just as long as it is not light red. That would be unfair. :2tsup:

Dean

[Ueee]

I'm not manly enough for light red.....:D

I picked up a tin of Duramax ZP today in Dulux midnight blue, looks good in the tin.....
286689

I now have most of the parts either ready for painting or ready for repairs. As the repairs will mostly be brazed i need to get it done before i think about paint.

Some pics of the parts, including close ups of the built in oil wells for the headstock bearings (missing wicks) and the QCGB ones, they are missing felts. The back of the bed is pretty well striped, now to do the front and try to get the rack off.....

Cheers,
Ew

[simonl]

Looks great Ueee. Those parts look big! Love the size of the TS housing.

Nothing looks better than clean, ready to be painted CI parts...

Simon

[Ueee]

Thanks Simon, the T/S casting is big, its about 350mm long and 270mm wide. Wonder how it will go with Chris's "lean" test:rolleyes:

For some context i weighed a few things (just the empty castings) this arvo. Some things were lighter than i expected and some were heavier. The apron was the big surprise, it is only 27kg. The T/S however will weigh 66kg just with the 3 castings! The spindle and bull gear are 34kg....gearbox is only 17kg. the 2 halves of the fixed steady will be 24kg combined. I can barely lift the saddle and i can't lift the headstock......

For some context though, i found a write up from a New Machinery and tools book from 1911(?) This is when the Heavy Duty was introduced. the 21" version (next size up from mine) was claimed to be able to take a .250" doc, at a feed of .166" per rev......with carbon steel tooling. They rated the lathes as being able to remove X number of cubic inches of steel per minute. No wonder it is all so heavy......

Ew

[simonl]

Wow! I can't get over the size of the TS and the section area in the bed!

I had to re-acquaint myself to your earlier posts in this thread to refresh my memory. The link to the ebay sale obviously has been and gone but you got it for a grand?

It's looking really nice Ueee.

I need to find myself another re-build project myself. Shaper or surface grinder would not go astray although another lathe or mill at the right price could also tempt me! :U

Simon

[Steamwhisperer]

Wow! I can't get over the size of the TS and the section area in the bed!

I had to re-acquaint myself to your earlier posts in this thread to refresh my memory. The link to the ebay sale obviously has been and gone but you got it for a grand?

It's looking really nice Ueee.

I need to find myself another re-build project myself. Shaper or surface grinder would not go astray although another lathe or mill at the right price could also tempt me! :U

Simon

Shaper. Ya know ya wanna.
I'm on my phone so please insert several smilies.

Phil

[Michael G]

I need to find myself another re-build project myself. Shaper or surface grinder would not go astray although another lathe or mill at the right price could also tempt me!

(Heh heh heh. The bug has bitten...)

Michael

[simonl]

Yep. Like the look of those Douglas Shapers......

Even if I only use it once a year....... I know it will be sitting there waiting for me to use it...... happily waiting, and it won't get jealous if I see or use other machines either. It won't even mind if I use two machines at once! :B

Simon

[Kraehe]

Even if I only use it once a year....... I know it will be sitting there waiting for me to use it...... happily waiting, and it won't get jealous if I see or use other machines either. It won't even mind if I use two machines at once! :B Simon

That's the great thing about old machines and tools; they only want us to love them. They don't care about the other stuff... :)

K.

[j.ashburn]

Shaper. Ya know ya wanna.
I'm on my phone so please insert several smilies.

Phil
:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup: Little Dougies certainly ''take the cake'' in the cute factor and practicality.Visitors to the shed always enjoy the Douglas.Every boy should have one.:D:)

[simonl]

I have heard a few members here picking theirs up few a few hundred dollars (requiring some love) but bargains like that seem few and far between. Heaps more shapers in the U.S.

Simon

[Ueee]

PS Have not forgotten about the Le Blond

Mark

Hi Mark,
Funny you should mention.....

I pulled the bed out this arvo with the thoughts of getting it in the driveway and running a flap disk over it ready for bogging and a primer coat or 3. The kids decided i was mad and that it made a great train.....

Ew

Simon, i just checked my ebay history, she cost me $440. I've had at least that much fun with her so far and i haven't even turned anything on her yet:)

[Stustoys]

[QUOTE=Ueee;1749670 The kids decided i was mad and that it made a great train.....[/QUOTE]
Better than it being used as a flower pot I guess :D

[Ueee]

Well the bed is now on stools and i have finally got the rack off. It was pinned on at each end with a meaty taper pin, i managed to lever either end free fairly easily in the end once i had the bed on its side anyway.
I spend some time with a flap disk today but i still have more to do, the filler that is left is horrible sticky black stuff, it comes off ok but sticks to everything.

I ran a dial over the front way comparing it to the rack mount, it shows about .014" wear. I wonder if the bed has been re machined before, it doesn't seem like much for a 100yr old lathe. There is also some wear from either the saddle lock or the front retainers, not sure which at this stage.

Cheers,
Ew

[nearnexus]

I spend some time with a flap disk today but i still have more to do, the filler that is left is horrible sticky black stuff, it comes off ok but sticks to everything.

Cheers,
Ew

If you want to get the old bog out, an air needle descaler will speed things up.

Rob

[Ueee]

Thanks for the tip Rob. As much as i like any excuse to buy a new tool i passed and just used a flap disk and wire brush....

Anyway, it is all stripped now, cleaned and in the shed getting bogged. The casting is really nice in places and needs HEAPS of filling in others. I've used about half a tin of bondo already, need to get some more in the morning.

I also mixed up some of the Duramax to spray some of the parts, but contrary to what the data sheet says and what i was told in the shop it needs thinning, and of course i don't have any appropriate thinners. So brushed on what i had mixed up.....

Cheers,
Ew

[morrisman]

Hi ewan

How are you fixing the 14 thou worn bed ? Mike

[Ueee]

:)Ewan..is the bed of that lathe OK ? Does it need scraping ? You really are taking on a big job :p


Hi Mike,
The only test i have done on the bed is dialing the saddle ways off the T/S. They show a 10thou or so dip at the head end. With a little luck i will be able to employ Mark Grays planner to do the bulk of the work, then scrape to a master.


Hi ewan

How are you fixing the 14 thou worn bed ? Mike

Did i hear an echo.....:D

To be fair it has been a long time.....

Ew

[Ueee]

I now have a coat of paint on the bed and another coat on the rest of the parts. This stuff builds really well but has to be the worst paint i have ever cleaned out of a gun. Could just be the colour but i don't think so.
Josh made a comment about sanding the stuff back on the FP2LB, and i have to agree with him. After 24 hours it just kills w&d paper in no time. I don't think i have ever sanded anything as hard as this before.
As usual the wildlife came out as soon as i had sprayed, I like how you can see just how far he got presumably before the paint killed him.....

Ew

[jmebgo]

Looks great Ew, I can't wait to see it done, been following the progress from the beginning.

[old1955]

Great WIP Ew.

[simonl]

Great work Ueee,

I like the pic with the bug. I got a laugh out of the little track meandering off into the background!

Simon

[Ueee]

Over the last week the lathe bed seems to have been coming down with RC's disease. It got light red patches! I fixed them today with another coat of paint, ready now for a light sand and some poly.

Ew

[thorens]

Hi Ew .
look good . what kind of paint you use ?
Peter

[Ueee]

Hi Peter,
It is a product called Dulux Duremax. There are 2 versions of this, standard and Zinc Phosphate. http://www.dulux.com.au/specifier/product/protective-coatings/intermediates/product-detail?product=2308
It builds really well, but is very hard to spray as it is so thick even when thinned to the max recommended amount. Becuase it is so thick it also hangs really well but it does dry with pretty bad orange peel.

This is the topcoat i'll likely use, although there are a few different ones available. http://www.dulux.com.au/specifier/product/protective-coatings/topcoatsfinishes/high-gloss/product-detail?product=2346

Old1955,
Thanks for following along, it will get finished one day....

Cheers,
Ew

[old1955]

Old1955,
Thanks for following along, it will get finished one day....

Cheers,
Ew[/QUOTE]

No worries Ew have been watching with great interest.

Ross

[morrisman]

Hi Ewan

I think you mentioned that the bed is a tad worn . Are you planning to have the bed ground ? If so will the grinding process make a mess of your nice paint job ? Mike

[Oldneweng]

I see they have my "Dance Studio" blue available in that topcoat range.

Dean

[Ueee]

Hi Ewan

I think you mentioned that the bed is a tad worn . Are you planning to have the bed ground ? If so will the grinding process make a mess of your nice paint job ? Mike

Hi Mike,
The plan is to get it planed with the help of forum member Mark Gray. He has a 9' planer. Whether it then gets scraped to a master or just stoned is yet to be seen.

Ew

[Ueee]

Wow its been a while since posting here. Longer than i thought.
Anyway not that there has been any progress on the lathe really, but i found this on gumtree, a 1940 Nuttal. /http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/glenorie/miscellaneous-goods/1943-lathe-for-sale/1055471581?utm_source=criteo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=LF-goods&mpch=ads
Whilst there is nothing really special about this machine one thing jumped out at me, the countershaft setup is exactly the same as the one i have for the LeBlond. I already know it is a Nuttall clutch (as is the one on my shaper) but it looks like the whole countershaft was lifted from a Nuttall.

Cheers,
Ew

[morrisman]

Wow its been a while since posting here. Longer than i thought.
Anyway not that there has been any progress on the lathe really, but i found this on gumtree, a 1940 Nuttal. /http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/glenorie/miscellaneous-goods/1943-lathe-for-sale/1055471581?utm_source=criteo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=LF-goods&mpch=ads
Whilst there is nothing really special about this machine one thing jumped out at me, the countershaft setup is exactly the same as the one i have for the LeBlond. I already know it is a Nuttall clutch (as is the one on my shaper) but it looks like the whole countershaft was lifted from a Nuttall.

Cheers,
EwTHAT MAKES IT A NUTTY BLOND