Cincinnati No.2 Tool and Cutter Grinder

[RayG]

Hi All,

This is the next project, I am planning to set it up to grind M2 chisels, in particular the side bevels on fine paring chisels. ( a forum group project )...

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/CincinnattiTC.jpg

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/CincinnattiTC2.jpg

Thanks to Harty, :2tsup: ( and .RC's web site...) I now have the operator manuals and also the service and spare parts manuals, but the model variations are confusing me.

There seem to be a number of different variants of the No2, the most obvious being the base.

I'm planning the move for later this week, and the table needs to come off, so the current puzzle is to figure out which model variant it is, so that I can get the table off when I get on site...

Anyone got the same model? The service manual I've got is for the LL model, which looks to have a different base to the No2 above..

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

It's even got the motorized work head! :o Head over to PM if no one pipes up here.

[jhovel]

Congratulations Ray!
You got one quickly :)
It looks a lot like the Van Norman, except for the height adjustable and swiveling spindle mount.
Funny, I wondered and have looked long and hard at modifying the Van Norman to separate the spindle from the bed casting. I doubt there is enough CI to cut it successfully.... I may consider other or no options (and leave it all original).
Joe

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Ahh, so that's who bought that. Looks like you didn't pay too bad a price either, compared to what's normally asked for T&C grinders.

I'd almost talked myself into that one, then I looked in my workshop, and decided space taken vs amount of likely use didn't make any sense. Much better to put a big bandsaw there, in my case...

Looks like you may have solved your custom tapered reamer/drill problem! :2tsup:

[harty69]

Hi Ray
it may be an em model

cheers
Harty

[.RC.]

That is the early one, same as my Macson model.. AFAIK the only difference between it and the later ones was later ones is the position of the electrical cabinet and they also put extended one of the rapid table traverse so it comes out the front...

The table is easy to remove, but it rather heavy... I will snap some pics later today (we just had 50mm of rain last night so it might be a day in the shed today)

[Machtool]

I'm planning the move for later this week, G’day Ray.

Have they got a forklift there to load it? Sing out if you need a hand, I’ve got a few errands, to do out that way, I’ve been putting off. I could possibly meet you there.

Phil.

[.RC.]

You have to push the table until these holders (the bits with red circles around them in the photo) are exposed then remove them.... One set on either end...... Then lift the table off vertically...

Just remember when you push the table so far it will be over centre and try to fall off itself... It is a real heavy thing as well, it is nearly a job for a forklift to lift off, but two strong people can lift it...

Those two large cap screws at the bottom of the photo, they are keepers that limit the table movement and stop the balls from falling out of the guideways..... And as we know there is nothing worse then your balls falling out and hitting the concrete floor..

[RayG]

Thanks .RC, if we had 50mm of rain here, I'd be looking for water wings... thanks for the pictures, that's exactly the information what I was looking for :2tsup:, I've done a bit of searching on line.

And as Harty said it looks like the EM model. (EDIT: I meant to comment on .RC's artwork... but words failed me :) )

Phil, it's an engineering firm in Clayton, Treforest Drive, just around the corner from George White. It will be Friday morning, so if you are in the neighbourhood, I'd welcome some help (I need all the help I can get!) I can give you a call on the mobile a couple of hours beforehand. They have a forklift and a crane, so loading should be ok. I'll have the ute and the hire truck, so the table and other smaller parts can go in the ute.

The web site with the overpriced manuals... Machinery Support Parts and Manuals (http://www.mcspt.com/) has the following variants.

In the event that someone comes across this thread in the future, here are a few of some of the different models ... I think this is only a small number of the different variants.

The OM model.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/Cinc2TC-OM.jpg

The LL model
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/Cinc2TC-LL.jpg

The MT Model (Milacron)
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/Cinc2TC-MT.jpg

The EM model
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/Cinc2TC-EM.jpg

I can start to see applications for much more than just tool and cutter sharpening, with the motorised work head (nicely spotted BT) it will do nicely for a bit of cylindrical grinding.

Jekyll&Hyde, I'm going to blame PDW for this... he was the one who suggested in another thread that I should get a T&C grinder to grind custom tapered reamers... Good advice. :D

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

While being a different model Cincinnati, this scanned brochure may have more relevance now Ray than it did pre T and C.

BT

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/cincinnati-monoset-t-c-grinder-brochure-137131/

[Machtool]

Phil, it's an engineering firm in Clayton, Treforest Drive, I know it, Cross Hydraulics are at the end of that street. I should be available. You might think about bringing some decent timber bearers. That pallet looks a bit wonky to me. 4x 4’s or those cheap garden sleepers from Bunnings.

I see it has lifting bar holes through the side. I’d have bars and rag slings here, if they have a crane, that would be a simple job to get it off the pallet.

Phil.

[harty69]

the pallet does look structurally compromised
on mine I just put the bars through the holes and lift it with the forklift under the bars I can just get the forks far enough apart to not rub on the sides

cheers
Harty

[PDW]

Jekyll&Hyde, I'm going to blame PDW for this... he was the one who suggested in another thread that I should get a T&C grinder to grind custom tapered reamers... Good advice. :D

Regards
Ray

Why not, I'm always ready to urge other people to spend money. Exception being if a metal planer turns up for sale, RC & I have already entered into a bidding competition in advance so it's likely to get expensive for others.....

Unfortunately I may have a hard time competing with a rich cow cocky unless I actually get a job, and that seems like going to extremes.

T&C grinders are very handy things. I hardly use mine but that's more a reflection on the pile of sharp tooling I have on hand and my need for somewhat less precision for most of what I'm doing ATM. I can get within 0.1mm with an angle grinder, that's close enough for steel boat building.

PDW

[.RC.]

Ray I have a spare set of centres here if you are interested..... I will never use two sets.. Or if you just want the left hand one...

[RayG]

Ray I have a spare set of centres here if you are interested..... I will never use two sets.. Or if you just want the left hand one...

Hi .RC, I might just take you up on that offer, at least the left handed center. But I'll wait to see exactly what comes with the machine. Nothing other than what is in the pictures is what I'm expecting. :)

The planning for the move is all done, I've got 1" bars and 3T lifting slings, so the dodgy pallet can stay.. sling it under the forklift tines and I'll put it on a load mat on the tray truck, with 8mm chains and load binders.

Regards
Ray

[Toggy]

Ray;

Before you move it; lift the table and remove the balls. Put a couple of pieces of wood on the slides in their place Pine would probably be soft enough not to cause damage to the slides. Alternatively just put the table on a piece of rubber mat in the back of the ute.
As you would realized the vibrations of transport can make indentations in the slides.
I think this has been said before.

Ken

[Greg Q]

Ray are you planning to stop by my place on this trip or some future date?

Greg

[Machtool]

Before you move it; lift the table and remove the balls.
I think that’s been planed for, table goes in the ute. I have some things to do out that way, so I'm planning to stop in and lend a hand.

Ken, I see you are in Kyabram. My mum lives in town. Heather Fehring.

Regards Phil.

[RayG]

Hi Toggy, thanks for the advice, yes the table comes off before it's moved, and with Phil's help I think we have it covered. .RC posted a picture ( complete with original artwork :) ) showing what to do. Stuart has volunteered the use of his observational super powers.

Thanks Greg, I thought seriously about detouring via the "house of pain" but the truck hire is only for the day, and so it would be a rushed visit. I'd prefer to allow a bit of time when I pick up the rock and visits to such hallowed ground require time for meditation and reflection, not to mention coffee and time for a chat... Joe is coming over Saturday so we can have a go at flattening his welding table on the shaper, so I'm thinking early next week for a spot of coffee and rock throwing... :D

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

Rock throwing at Gregori's. Does that mean Czechoslovakia might be getting closer??:2tsup:

[Greg Q]

OK then Ray...I'm back on Tuesday night with any luck, make plenty of time. Any other of the usual suspects feel free...

Bob, when I get back from Hobbits job one is to crate up your Piece of the Rock™. Phil F gave me his trans-Nullabor shippers today, so I hope to have your thing enroute by Friday. I am welding a stand for my stone right now. Or at least I was until my auto darkening helmet got too dark in the gloom here at Flight Rust Hollow.

[Anorak Bob]

What! you can't squint.

[Greg Q]

LOL...I was thinking that just today RC...and much to my surprise I can report that the makers print at least 12 different versions of the cert as they are all unique.

Greg

[Stustoys]

I am welding a stand for my stone right now.
What? no pictures? How am I meant to copy with no pictures?
Did you try RP?

Stuart

[Greg Q]

I was going to yesterday Stuart, but it was such a nice day (and I was supposed to be enroute to Jakarta but got cancelled out at 0820) that I decided to take a ride over to Valley Steel in Kangaroo Ground...I like those guys, and they'll often cut to length while you wait.

They do welding too.

All I managed today was base plates drilled, tapped, welded on and three members joined. Only eight more to go. then I'll post photos. Its going to be overbuilt.

GQ

[Michael G]

Greg, a senior engineer where I work was once was heard to say

"Over design is a matter of conjecture; under design is a matter of fact"

Worth remembering.

Michael

[Bryan]

Bob, when I get back from Hobbits job one is to crate up your Piece of the Rock™.

Is one being cut into straight edges? If so I think I was on that list?

[Greg Q]

I was just speaking with Phil about that today. I have been trying to get an answer from a competent authority on granite as to whether or not the cut-off, or the plate, or both, will warp if cut.

I haven't spent much time looking for an answer though...maybe in the coming weeks.

Greg

[jhovel]

Hi RC - if Ray only wants the spare left centre, I'm very interested in a right one! My cylindrical grinder came without any! I was counting on being forced to make one from scratch....
What's the centre-height, please?
Cheers,
Joe

[.RC.]

I will measure the centre height tomorrow..... The right one has suffered a bit a bit of grinding damage, but I think it would be serviceable... The lever flicks up and down OK....

[jhovel]

..... The right one has suffered a bit a bit of grinding damage....

Beggars can't be choosers :2tsup:

Joe

[.RC.]

I think the centre height is 5 inches...

[Bryan]

That's called "relieved". You should charge extra for that. Saves the next owner doing it. :wink:

[Machtool]

You have to push the table until these holders (the bits with red circles around them in the photo) are exposed then remove them.... One set on either end...... Then lift the table off vertically... This one didn’t, we found those blocks, but only one each end, it still wouldn’t lift, I couldn’t see what else could possibly be holding it down. Any way, we ended up sliding it off the end.

Any way I saw it go off in the truck. It should be home about now. I’ll let Ray tell you the rest.

Phil.

[pipeclay]

What sort of truck was it.

[Machtool]

A white one.

[RayG]

Well it's home and safely in the workshop, thanks to the efforts of Phil, Stuart and Josh.

It was a smooth and uneventful move, pretty much every thing went according to plan, which is what you always hope for when moving heavy delicate machinery, This time it was great to see how Phil does things... :2tsup: Thanks Phil and Stuart, your help was greatly appreciated.

The machine itself is in pretty fair condition, although all the oil caps and wicks are dried out, and a couple of oil caps are painted over. The bearings that the table runs on feel lumpy and gritty, echuca somethings? I haven't had a close look yet. maybe later tonight when it cools down a bit..

The interesting thing though is...

This Cincinnati Number 2 has no balls.... :)

Well it has ball bearings and a chain.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1767.JPG

The table runs against the ball bearings, the one on the right is fixed and the one on the left is spring loaded... beyond that, I'm still figuring it out.

The motor for the wheel head is inside the main casting.. not on top, no collets, and no idea what the tapers are yet. did come with left and right center however...

One wheel spindle mounting is missing... that might be a problem to source...

The work head tapers are huge....

More pictures later.... thanks again to Phil and Stuart for all the help this morning.. :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

PS... It was a white hire 3tonne tray cost $120 for the day plus fuel and citylink. Say $250 all up.

[.RC.]

The workhead taper will be either MT5 or B&S 12 (I think it is 12, but it is rarer then an honest politician) Oh and 50ISO at the other end..

[.RC.]

this cincinnati number 2 has no balls.... :)


it's a eunuch....:d

[RayG]

it's a eunuch....:d

Maybe, but I'm going with Miss Cincinnati.... :D

Any thoughts on what the wheel spindle taper might be?

I found these guys linked to from a PM post... as a potential source for grinding wheel arbors... William Sopko and Sons Co. - Precision Wheel Grinding Adapters and Spindle Accessories Manufacturer (http://www.wmsopko.com/)

Regards
Ray

[Toggy]

What RC says re tapers.

At least my Elliot No 5 has balls; a whole cluster of them.

My Cinci No2 T & C manual circa 1950 states precision steel balls separated by a flat bronze cage. Ball tracks made of hardened steel ground in position.

Motor in base.
Ken

[Stustoys]

The table runs against the ball bearings, the one on the right is fixed and the one on the left is spring loaded... beyond that, I'm still figuring it out.

Hi Guys
I worked out on the way home that it was those bearings holding the table on. The rack is wider than the way(?) those bearings run on. At least thats my current theory.

Havent read all the posts yet I'm measuring up the steel for my surface plate.(currently thinking about 60mm dia pipe with 3.6mm wall 1100mm long for the vertical and 50mmSQ 3mm for the horizontals)

Pictures to follow :)

Stuart

[harty69]

more photos of the bottom of the table and the chain please ray
glad to hear its home safe

cheers
Harty

[.RC.]

Maybe, but I'm going with Miss Cincinnati.... :D

\


Might have been around the block a few times... Miss might be pushing it..... :D

[Machtool]

Might have been around the block a few times... Miss might be pushing it.....
I’m voting for “Mrs Clayton” It’s true we picked her up, off the side of the road. But she was clean and her intensions were honourable.

Phil

[RayG]

Well, we uncovered the first major problem, the pin on the cross feed acme nut had broken off.
Looks like it was broken some time ago...

So the saddle has had to come off, and I'll have to make up a new pin and bore the nut to suit. If that's the only major issue, i'll be happy.


Harty, regarding the chain rollers, I'll get some pictures tomorrow of the underside of the table, and it will all make more sense.

Phil's got it, Mrs Clayton it is... delicate little innocent flower that she is... :)

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

This is the broken pin, I was referring to...

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1769.JPG


Here's the other half... as Mythbusters would say... "There's yer problem"
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1770.JPG

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

This is probably a question for RC, I need to remove the cross feed nut, so I can bore it to accept a replacement pin. But I've hit a brick wall... the instructions for removal rely on the pin being intact and in place for the screw to act against and force the front bearing assembly out.. I'm a bit reluctant to force it unless I know it's going the right way.

Here's the current state of play.. the saddle is off, and upside down on work horses.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1773.JPG


Close up of the outside end of the cross feed screw.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1777.JPG


The other end of the cross feed screw.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1778.JPG

The cross feed nut I want to get out..
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1779.JPG


This is how the manual says to do it, but I don't think this works if the pin is broken...
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/CrossFeedScrew1.jpg

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/CrossFeedScrew2.jpg

Exploded view from the manual, but I'm not sure if it's the right manual for this machine.. but at least this part looks the same..

So, the question is how to remove the screw, when the pin on the cross feed nut is broken?

Regards
Ray

[.RC.]

Mine only had a tapered roller bearing both ends, So you just remove the adjusting screws and wind it out.....

Have you worked out what the table runs on since it has no balls?

[RayG]

Thanks RC, I'm making up some blocks to put against the nut for the screw to act against, and see if that works...

Here is the bottom of the table..

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1772-1.JPG

The two ball bearings run against the side of the rack, and there is a lip that stops the table from being lifted, as Stuart rightly guessed.
Although, on reflection, you could push the spring loaded bearing and move the table backwards to clear the lip and then lift it... we just slid it off the end... worked just as well.

The rollers run on the rails either side. Here's the picture I posted earlier of the rollers
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1767.JPG

So, instead of the table running on balls, it runs on the rollers. Seems simple enough..

I wonder why they did it that way though, I would have thought the point contact ball bearings would be smoother and more accurate?

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

Hi Ray,
Did Josh show you the flats on the bearing?(the left bearing in the picture)
Stuart

[RayG]

Hi Ray,
Did Josh show you the flats on the bearing?(the left bearing in the picture)
Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Yes, I'm going to replace those 4 bearings, they feel rough and lumpy, they've probably had their fair share of grinding dust over the years.. :rolleyes:

I'm thinking seriously of trying to go all cbn with the wheels, I think they cut cleaner and you don't get as much of that fine hard grit that you get with alox.

Regards
Ray

[Stustoys]

I've been wondering how the flats got there. My guess is a little grit in the bearing so each time the table starts the bearing slides just a little(against a cast iron lap) then starts spinning as it should............ repeat 10000 times.

I guess its worth a try if these cbn wheels are as good as they say. As long as you dont end up with a smaller amount of grit the is even harder. How do you dress a cbn wheel?

Stuart

[RayG]

How do you dress a cbn wheel?

Stuart

No idea... :)

The ones where the cbn is plated somehow onto a metal substrate, are probably not dressable, well, not without some special gear I guess...

The ones where the cbn is embedded in a resin type material, could be a possibility with a diamond dresser. For profile grinding where you need to dress a particular profile, I imagine that's how they do it?

Regards
Ray

PS Taking a break from the cross feed nut problem... Mrs Clayton has got us beat at the moment...

[Michael G]

Ray,
as a temporary fix, can you weld (or braze) the stub back onto the nut? - just enough to get things out.

Michael

[Machtool]

Ray.
In this picture.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1777.JPG

Those round circular unpainted bits. Is there any chance those pull out. Looking at the other side, with the tapered roller bearing, I’d expect a tapered roller bearing under there with a lock nut. Try a mag base on them.


Either way the shaft goes back into the castings as the diameters are smaller out near the hand wheel. But maybe you have removed some of that all ready, try a soft face hammer, to try and knock it inwards.

I don’t think that drawing is of yours, it has bearings at each end, yours clearly has both bearings at one end.

Phil.

[Ueee]

Ray,
Thanks for the interesting reading, i love seeing how old machines work:D. i like the zig zag pattern in the oil grooves in the pic of the nut your trying to remove.

I see in one of the pics your shaper is in the background, just to make the rest of us "shaperless" people even more envious!

[RayG]

Ray.
In this picture.
I don’t think that drawing is of yours, it has bearings at each end, yours clearly has both bearings at one end.

Phil.

Hi Phil, Correct, both tapered roller bearings are at the one end and the sleeve between the two bearings turned out to be locked in place with a tapered pin.. you can just make it out in this picture.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1778-2.jpg

Once the pin was out, Mrs Clayton suddenly became meek and mild, instead of stubborn and abusive.... :)

I'll take some pictures of the whole set up later..

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Hi Ray

for what its worth mine came out the back I locked the y axis with a clamp and and used the thread to wind out the bearings and thread which you cant do
the Front was just a bush i think no tapered bearing
it looks very similar i have attached a pick of the table bearings its not chain but it does use rollers instead of balls this was just after i picked it up so its a bit dirty
199524

cheers
Harty

[harty69]

fixed it while I was writing my post well done

[.RC.]

Certainly is a bit different that one...

I wonder how accurate the table will run being on rollers like that...

[harty69]

Certainly is a bit different that one...

I wonder how accurate the table will run being on rollers like that...

Hi RC

mine is very similar to rays and so far it seems to be very accurate I was doing some cylindrical grinding on it today and its holding .0002" (slight taper) along 10 inches wth 1.5" diameter mind you it took a bloody long time to set it up very nice finnish too


cheers
Harty

[RayG]

Here is the culprit. The other side of the locking pin we initially mistook for an oil hole ... :doh:

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1780.JPG

That sleeve is the spacer between the two tapered roller bearings...

That nut, is what it's taken a whole day to get out... mind you it was a 1/2 hour job once we knew what we were doing... :rolleyes:


Regards
Ray

[jhovel]

I'm glad you found what stopped us yesterday.... I didn't expect a taper pin...
Well done.
Joe

[harty69]

Hi Ray

I think she is ms clayton
if she where mrs clayton it would have taken a whole day to get the nut in not out :D
cheers
Harty

[RayG]

Hi Ray

I think she is ms clayton
if she where mrs clayton it would have taken a whole day to get the nut in not out :D
cheers
Harty

Well, if she is Ms rather than Mrs... she hasn't been very liberal with her favours... :D

The roller set up, I can't see why it couldn't be as accurate as ball bearing ways, the contact is along a line rather than a point. And the other axis is controlled by the bearings at either end, so if the guides are straight, the table has to move in a straight line.... (I think)

Regards
Ray

[.RC.]

I was just thinking of the tolerances of roundness the rollers on the chain are held to.

[RayG]

I was just thinking of the tolerances of roundness the rollers on the chain are held to.

Hi .RC,

No idea, but I would imagine they are precision ground rollers, you would think it's easier to grind a perfectly round cylinder than a spherical shape... don't really know the answer..

One thing that ocurred to me, was that according to the name plate this machine was made by Cincinnati in Birmingham England, Sold in Australia by McPhersons..

Perhaps it was made during the war and they had a shortage of ball bearings? Just guessing.

Regards
Ray

[Ueee]

Ray,
My Felder panel saw uses angled cylindrical rollers, the cheaper saws use ball bearings. A panel saw doesnt have to have the accuracy of a grinder, but if the (in my opinion) second best panel saw manufacturer in the world uses them over ball bearings that says something.

A roller also has a much larger contact area than a sphere so the bearing surfaces should last longer.
Ewan

[Machtool]

Are you going to remove that chain Ray? I’d be interested how the rollers mic up. You should be able to squeeze a micrometer in there. I was thinking there’s no reason those rollers won’t be every bit as accurate as any other sort of bearing.

If the rollers where centreless ground before assembly. The accuracy of the links / side plates etc, don’t come into play, they just space the rollers. Gamet bearings have holes in the rollers, thats just a linear version.

Phil.

[RayG]

Hi Phil,

I wasn't planning to remove the rollers, but there is enough room to get a mic onto them, so it's worth checking while I can. I'll post the results.

Josh bored the nut to be a press fit for the old pin, and we've tapped M5 from either side for locking grub screws.. and I've turned a spacer to go on the bottom of the pin so the bottom locking bolt still pulls up. Looks like it will do the job. Still got to chase up some bearings, new taper roller bearings for the crossfeed screw, and the table guide bearings. Should start to go back together after that... :)



Spindle adaptors are going to be from here...

Precision Grinding Wheel Adapters and Spindle Accessories from William Sopko & Sons Co., Inc. (http://www.wmsopko.com/catalog.php3?pagelist=31-32-33-34-35-36-37-38-39-40-41-42)

The C200-1 and C200-2 for flat belt center drive, left and right handed. They also make adaptors to go from the Cincinnati taper 4.5" TPF to standard taper 3" TPF

I'm keen to see if these CBN wheels are any good..

eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170785530051?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Hi Ray

let me know when you are going to order from spoko as i need a couple of bits from them we may be able to save a bit on postage
also whats the condition if the bellows on your machine I need to replace mine might be cheaper for 2

cheers
Harty

[RayG]

Hi Ray

let me know when you are going to order from spoko as i need a couple of bits from them we may be able to save a bit on postage
also whats the condition if the bellows on your machine I need to replace mine might be cheaper for 2

cheers
Harty


Hi Harty,

I'm waiting on prices from sopko, If I can sort out exactly what I need :) I will order in the next couple of days.

I'm thinking of an extension shaft might be handy for internal grinding.

I'm happy to combine orders, just let me know what you want, and I'll add it on to my order.

The rubber bellows looks ok, but has broken away from the hose clamp.. It looks like it was pop riveted onto the hose clamp and it''s torn out the holes.

The wheel head rotation appears to be stuck, I've backed off the locking nut, but it doesn't want to move? Mrs Clayton can be stubborn when she wants to.... maybe I need to give her some diamond jewelery.. :D

Regards
Ray

EDIT: Wheel head rotates ok now, it had been painted over and the paint gummed up the rotation... I didn't even have to show her the diamond wheel... :)

[.RC.]

I will snap some pics of the bits and pieces I have later...

[RayG]

I will snap some pics of the bits and pieces I have later...

Hi .RC,

I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of the centering gage, and what is needed for mounting the dogs.

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Hi RC

sounds like we need a show us your tool and cutter grinder thread :2tsup:

cheers
Harty

[.RC.]

Here we have the TC grinder accessories I have...

It includes...

motorised workhead, dividing plate for workhead, angular adjustment thingie for setting relief on the cutter, centring gauge, diamond dresser, universal vise, plus some spare bits for it, two sets of centres, grinding wheel arbours, extended grinding wheel arbours, an attachment for sharpening form cutters like gear cutters and an internal grinding attachment that is currently disassembled but all the bits for it are not shown in the photo as they are stored away...

Then I have a air spindle, radius attachment and universal vice for the little TC grinder..

[RayG]

Hi .RC,

Very impressive collection, I wish I knew what I was looking at... :) It will take me a while to figure out what is what...

What wheels do you mostly use?

Regards
Ray

[.RC.]

Just cup wheels...

[RayG]

Hi .RC,

What's the cream coloured thing that looks like a rocket launcher?

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/199592d1330334453-cincinnati-no-2-tool-cutter-grinder-tc-grinder-accessories-009.jpg

Looks big for an air spindle?

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

Hi .RC,

I have no idea what this is?

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/199590d1330334453-cincinnati-no-2-tool-cutter-grinder-tc-grinder-accessories-007.jpg

Regards
Ray

Edit... Oh wait is that part of a dog?

[harty69]

Hi .RC,

I have no idea what this is?

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/199590d1330334453-cincinnati-no-2-tool-cutter-grinder-tc-grinder-accessories-007.jpg

Regards
Ray

Edit... Oh wait is that part of a dog?

its a centering gage Ray

Cheers
Harty

[RayG]

its a centering gage Ray

Cheers
Harty

Thanks Harty, Ah yes, I've got it.. it goes up and down with the wheel head.

Still stumped on most of the others though... :)

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Hi Ray

we have had a scraping course to get us started with the basics
now we need a tool and cutter course to get the basics of that

Cheers
Harty

[RayG]

Hi Harty,

I reckon Rocky would be a good place to hold it... pity it's so far from the center of the universe though... :D

I did find a lot of Walter setup documentation on-line, that goes into a fair amount of detail on angles and setup procedures. There is a lot of detail to learn.

Have you got a list of what you want from sopko?

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Hi Ray

No list
been looking and I need to do some more research before i jump in and order the wrong parts so dont wait for me

cheers
Harty

[.RC.]

Hi .RC,

What's the cream coloured thing that looks like a rocket launcher?



Looks big for an air spindle?

Regards
Ray

That is the air spindle.... it is not that big..It takes 5C collets...

This is what you need

Tool and Cutter Grinder CD, Model Engineer? Buy It Now | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tool-and-Cutter-Grinder-CD-Model-Engineer-Buy-Now-/160731414441?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item256c56bfa9)

I have a copy, it is quite good...

[RayG]

Hi .RC,

Thanks for that I've ordered the cd. Looks like just what I need. :2tsup:

I'm currently just cleaning up around the wheel head, (while waiting for bearings to arrive) and getting paint off the oil caps that were painted over, and notice that a lot of the reference surfaces have been painted over as well, so I'm gradually getting the paint off those as well.

Do you have a picture of your wheel head?

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

Well, it''s almost back together...

Here is the cross slide screw arrangement, for future reference. New timken tapered roller bearings.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1786.JPG

The repaired pin on the cross slide nut.. a bit of thread lock on the grub screws. The pin is a nice tight press fit into the nut.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1787.JPG

The saddle is back on, the screw is fitted after the saddle goes back.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1789.JPG


New bearings for the table guides... Phil, I measured the rollers, and the front rollers were 11.603 +-0.001 and the back rollers were 11.711+-0.001 I didn't check every single roller, just about 10 or so around the chain.. seemed pretty consistent.

Can't think why the front and back would be different..? Also started filling the base of the table with oil. There are oil wicks going down to the cross slide ways from the table reservoir.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1790.JPG


The table is back on, and ready for a clean up with scotch brite.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1791.JPG

Next job is a proper clean up.. all the handles etc..

Regards
Ray

[RayG]

Here's a safety tip for anyone restoring old machine tools...

I pulled the spindle motor and the workhead motor out to get my SIL to rewire them for delta. As soon as I touched the wires the insulation crumbled to dust.

If I had powered it up.. zap!...

Lucky. :2tsup:

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Ray you will be pleased to know the roller bearing system works well for cylindrical grinding anyway
I had a bit more of a play with a test piece I was working on the other night and I got it to a point where I could not measure any difference along the length of 10" with metric micrometer 0.01 and with a .0001"dial indicator it reads about a half a division which I reckon is pretty good
Only down side is now I want to grind everything

cheers
Harty

[RayG]

Ray you will be pleased to know the roller bearing system works well for cylindrical grinding anyway
I had a bit more of a play with a test piece I was working on the other night and I got it to a point where I could not measure any difference along the length of 10" with metric micrometer 0.01 and with a .0001"dial indicator it reads about a half a division which I reckon is pretty good
Only down side is now I want to grind everything

cheers
Harty

You're right, I am pleased to know that... :) I hope mine comes up that good.

That's pretty impressive, holding 1/10th of a thou over 10 inches, that's 2.5 microns! the cylindrical square I bought was 2 microns in 6 inches... you could go into production making cylindrical squares :2tsup:

And you can do it with hardened steel.. now there's a handy capability. :)

Regards
Ray

PS... No word from Sopko, but I did find Sopko grinding wheel arbors for the Cincinnati #2 in the Travers catalog that arrived today.. $99 each, which I guess is probably fair enough for precision grinding spindle arbors, and I guess if you are going to spend some money that's the place on the machine to spend it. Where the rubber meets the road so to speak.

[harty69]

You're right, I am pleased to know that... :) I hope mine comes up that good.

That's pretty impressive, holding 1/10th of a thou over 10 inches, that's 2.5 microns! the cylindrical square I bought was 2 microns in 6 inches... you could go into production making cylindrical squares :2tsup:

And you can do it with hardened steel.. now there's a handy capability. :)

Regards
Ray

PS... No word from Sopko, but I did find Sopko grinding wheel arbors for the Cincinnati #2 in the Travers catalog that arrived today.. $99 each, which I guess is probably fair enough for precision grinding spindle arbors, and I guess if you are going to spend some money that's the place on the machine to spend it. Where the rubber meets the road so to speak.

Hi ray

dont think i will go into buissiness it took me 4hrs to get it from 2/10th to .5/10th and a bit of luck im sure
i found that dressing the wheel was very very important and had to do it several times if you let it go to long you would start to see tinny ripples in the finnish

and dont stop the spindle in between grinds
and there was quite a bit of waiting for temps to stabilize as this had a significant affect on getting a parallel grind

cheers
Harty

[RayG]

Hi Harty,

0.5/10th that's not luck, I think there's a bit of carefull setup and skill involved..:2tsup:

On wheel dressing we found the same deal with the surface grinder, keeping the wheel dressed, is vital to getting a good finish. It will be interesting to see how the CBN wheels perform, since as far as I know they aren't that easy to dress. Might be a good argument for alox.

A couple of thoughts, first, you obviously aren't having any issues with phase imbalance from running off the RPC, that's good to know. Just out of curiousity why do you need to keep the wheel running, the reason I ask, is that I've heard you can get slight slippage of the wheel on the spindle when you start and stop, which is another reason why vfd ramp up ramp down is good for grinders.

Have you got a picture of the setup you are using?

Meantime, on mine, whoever painted it painted that crappy green over oil holes, reference surfaces, scales, gummed up the head rotation, I don't think it has been used since being painted... so it's taking forever to clean up, lots of little things rusted up, table stops, taper adjustment rusted up, taper lock tab rusted up... gradually getting it back into working order... discovered the original paint under the green was a blueish-grey, so that's the "dulux rebuild" colour... :)

Regards
Ray

[harty69]

Hi Ray
if I ran down the spindle I would have to redress from the mentioned wheel slippage on restart

I will get some pics later for you

so will yours be waldown blue you probably have a bit of paint left over :2tsup:

cheers
Harty

[Greg Q]

After seeing Phil F's Repco-Power surface grinder in action I have wanted one. And a T & C grinder too. I'm thinking that buying one or both before we move down to Tassie would be a good move. And a shaper. And an FP-4, but you get my drift.

Peter H...I still have your iso40 drill arbor here. PM me your address

[harty69]

After seeing Phil F's Repco-Power surface grinder in action I have wanted one. And a T & C grinder too. I'm thinking that buying one or both before we move down to Tassie would be a good move. And a shaper. And an FP-4, but you get my drift.

Peter H...I still have your iso40 drill arbor here. PM me your address


Hi Greg

Yes we get your drift you need to hurry up and start buying :D

I left the arbor so I could come back for a coffe and some sinterlating repartee

ps hows Michael going with his mill

cheers
Harty

[Toggy]

RayG

There is a wheel dressing attachment (rusty cast) and a wheel holding collet on ebay for a Macson.

Ken

[PDW]

After seeing Phil F's Repco-Power surface grinder in action I have wanted one. And a T & C grinder too. I'm thinking that buying one or both before we move down to Tassie would be a good move. And a shaper. And an FP-4, but you get my drift.


First thing you need to buy is a container or 2. Lot simpler moving your stuff.

Not a lot of machinery available locally though I do know someone with an FP2. It'll be for sale as part of his estate, though, if then.

PDW

[RayG]

so will yours be waldown blue you probably have a bit of paint left over :2tsup:
cheers
Harty


Nope, more rattle can ..blue-greyish... I'm saving the Waldown Blue, in case a radial arm Waldown comes along.... :)

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/DSCN1793.JPG

Regards
Ray

PS... Thanks Ken for the ebay tip.. fingers crossed.