Could this be the start of change in Aussie retail? [Archive]

Big Shed

25th February 2012, 09:49 AM

I had the perfect example of why Australian retail is in trouble last night.

Needed a 16Gb Micro SD card and wanted it today, so looked up Dick Smith website.

Their price was $79.96, Dick Smith branded so could be anything, which surprised me a little.

So went to Ebay and found the same 16Gb Micro SD card, Sandisk brand, from an Australian supplier for $15.94 delivered to my door.

Perhaps I can afford to wait a few days.

Margins have gone beyond reason, wouldn't be so bad if this was an isolated case.

Just look at the likes of Hare and Forbes and similar machinery importers.

When I bought my WL-46 lathe the dollar was at around $0.60, it is now over $1.00, yet the price of the WL-46 has increased by 25% +++ in that time.

beer is good

26th February 2012, 01:44 AM

The fact that imports under $1000 don't attract GST was red herring from Gerry Harvey, and he soon shut up when consumers did not support him. A billionaire is surprised when consumers don't agree with his call for consumers to pay more tax???:?

Remember, it is not just the low wages in China that gives us cheap goods. Businesses don't have to pay 9% super, workers comp insurance, holiday pay, paid public holidays etc, etc.

But I think that the rents shopkeepers are forced to pay to the shopping centres and the landlords is a big contributor to the high prices for goods in Oz compared with other countries.

I fear that we are in an upward spiral - as our costs increase we want a pay rise (and the retailer raises prices) and then it all starts over again.

I would like to know how countries without Australia's wealth, like Switzerland, Germany and Sweden manage?

Geoff Dean

26th February 2012, 07:07 AM

How long will it be before Australian retailers set up online shops that are based overseas so that they can then sell into Australian without a GST component, on goods under $1000?

eskimo

26th February 2012, 09:08 AM

if aussie retailers are not ripping us off month after month, how is it then that they can have half yearly or end of financial year and other types of sales with 60 - 80 % off....ya cant tell me they are selling at or below cost...what a load of balonney...even gerry has sales with 50% off

Stustoys

26th February 2012, 10:00 AM

How long will it be before Australian retailers set up online shops that are based overseas so that they can then sell into Australian without a GST component, on goods under $1000?
They need to be very careful doing that, I believe the ATO has said it would look very closely at any such set up. It likely wouldnt work anyway as if all they did was take the GST off their current price I doubt they would sell anything. For example a set of allen keys, $34 down the road, no postage, (if they set up an online store so they didnt have to charge GST) online $30.91 + postage. Same thing from USA about $8 + postage. GST isnt the main issue. I doubt I would buy much from OS if I could get it locally(still possibly online) for 10% more.

Stuart

Master Splinter

26th February 2012, 10:27 AM

There was a report done recently by one of the policy/thinktank institutes (Australia Institute possibly) that compared what people thought was a reasonable markup vs. the actual markup - most thought a reasonable markup on costs was 30-40%; actual markup on the items surveyed was more in the region of 100-150%.

So retail has a lot of thinking to do - and Woolworths, this does not mean "Hey, if we introduce more of our own house 'select' brand that's priced just a bit under the category leader, while vastly reducing the range of our house brand budget generics, we'll pick up extra profit from cheapasses as they don't have that real cheap option anymore!"

Cynical 'the customer is dumb and won't notice' attitudes like this explain why I shop at Aldi while happily picking the eyes out of Woolies or Coles specials.

Another I hate is the publishing industry, were new fiction releases come out in that 'trade paperback' size (you know, the big ones that don't fit on your bookshelf and weigh a tonne and cost $10 more than standard paperbacks) and are the only version of the book available the first 12 months - I used to be a big book buyer, but since this profit maximising started I've switched to ebooks completely...and I don't mean the overpriced offerings from local ebook stores, either.

Jekyll and Hyde

26th February 2012, 10:59 AM

Remember, it is not just the low wages in China that gives us cheap goods. Businesses don't have to pay 9% super, workers comp insurance, holiday pay, paid public holidays etc, etc.

China has nothing to do with it. Bilstein shocks are made in Germany. I can buy a set of 4 for my car for over $800 locally, or I can have them landed at my door out of either the UK or USA for around $400. That is through normal bricks and mortar retailers, one of whom has been running in the UK for over 35 years.

Big Shed

26th February 2012, 11:04 AM

We can't put the blame completely on the retailers either.

The distribution chain in Australia, particularly for imported goods (and what isn't these days) invariably involves the importer. In a lot of cases this is owned and operated by the manufacturer. Check out what digital cameras sell for here as compared to OS, eg New York and London. The photographic retailers have laid the blame for the high retail costs here failry and squarely on the Canon, Nikon etc.

Of late some of them have seen fit to reduce the wholesale prices to retailers with the result that at least some digital cameras are now selling here for close to world prices.

barkersegg

26th February 2012, 11:45 AM

Previous poster summed it up nicely.............the retailer will sell a commodity at a price he thinks people will pay for it - the more $ the better for him.....I'm not talking manufacturing as that is different with factors like materials, labour and overheads both direct and indirect....but the retailer doesn't have all those costs......essentially he just buys a product and sells it for a profit rarely without contributing to the value adding of the goods........granted he may employ staff and has their wages, super, payroll tax and overheads like rent, rates, services etc - there are heaps of them .........and they are essentially paying 40-50% less for their goods now due to their forward echange contracts anyway that they hold usually for 6 months......strangely their prices haven't dropped and they seem to be collectively blaming overseas cheaper imports - then I'm afraid the consumer doesn't have much sympathy for them....no retailer pays the same price from his supplier that that supplier will sell on the open market - so the retailer is still getting it much cheaper than we can ....if we as consumers can buy our goods cheaper - then either the retailer matches what the customer is willing to pay or we go elsewhere - that's where the internet is just another way for consumers to find the best price for what they want......there, rant over...sorry about that....I hate knowingly getting ripped off..:~.

electrosteam

26th February 2012, 01:36 PM

The other day I enquired at a local hobby retail outlet about some items ordered quite some time ago.
The proprieter telephoned the importer, in front of me, and blasted him for being dis-organised, losing orders and general incompetence.
They both knew that I could go directly to a retail outlet overseas that had ample stock on the shelf, probably with a better price, even with postage.

The discussion moved around to trying to solve the problem.

On idea floated was for the retail outlet to order directly from the factory, get a tracking number, then the goods would be delivered though the normal wholesale channels.
This allows the retail outlet to maintain catalogs, have samples on the shelf and encourage walk-in to view other items.

I like the idea of having people available that can provide quality advice, plus catalogs and samples.

John.

Pete F

26th February 2012, 03:26 PM

If you want to get annoyed, look at the cost of software. The precise same piece of downloaded software or music when purchased through an Australian distribution network (eg Apple) will cost more than the same thing from the US distribution network. Nobody can claim anything like economies of scale etc as it's the same software, possibly off the same US based server! There is no middleman, distributer, etc etc. So why is it more expensive in Australia? Because they can. That's what DVD regions are all about, gouging the most they can from who they can.

Pete

RayG

26th February 2012, 03:52 PM

The other day I enquired at a local hobby retail outlet about some items ordered quite some time ago.
.

Hi John,

I remember ordering some parts through a local outlet, and the shop owner, was relentless about blaming the distributor for not sending the orders on time...

After being fobbed off with a whole series of increasingly ridiculous excuses, I rang the distributor myself, and found out the retailer in question had his account put on credit hold, and they weren't taking orders from him until he settled the outstanding accounts... all the excuses he told me were just lies.

I got the parts I wanted on line, posted from the US in less than a week...

That retail shop no longer exists... I wonder why... :)

Regards
Ray

Pete F

26th February 2012, 04:14 PM

Ray, that's another thing that erks me about buying locally, the -poor service. Good luck if anything ever goes wrong and you want to get it repaired. The major retailers tend to be better, but the smaller guys, you'd think you were asking for their first born son! They'll inevitably try to blame the customer, when that fails come up with some other excuse as to why they shouldn't have to stand by the warranty. The irony is that the burden of warranty (if you can call it that in Australia) typically falls on the distributer and not the retailer. I think it's simply a cultural thing here. Mind you it's better than the Chinese "warranty" where they just laugh at you while locking the door so you can't get back in!

Pete

RayG

26th February 2012, 06:10 PM

Hi Pete,

You are right about the service, I remember the guy was angry with me when I told him to cancel the order that I'd waited months for.... I didn't tell him I got it on-line, or that I knew the real reason he couldn't supply what I'd ordered, I just never went back.

I'm willing to bet he would be amongst the first to complain about on-line sales ruining his business..

There are plenty of times I would prefer to buy locally because of the personal contact, and good advice and I'm mostly happy to pay extra for the service. Especially if they stock what I'm after... But there are limits...

Regards
Ray

Pete F

26th February 2012, 06:47 PM

Agreed Ray, I'd always prefer to support locals in everything if I can, but by the same token I'm not a charity. I was looking to replace a bicycle frame recently, it's an expensive bike. The local guy wanted me to order it, wait until his order went to France every 6 months, then wait again while he had them shipped out by sea freight. Then if there was any warranty I had to send it back to France to be repaired. The local guy carries absolutely no stock here at all. The alternative was for me to buy it from a UK dealer, have it flown out to arrive within a week of my order, no difference in warranty, only I got to save $1500! So what precisely was the local guy doing for the $1500 difference, PLUS the usual retailer markup? I really wonder what planet these guys are from!

Pete

Chris Parks

26th February 2012, 07:32 PM

There is a philosophy permeating through Australian retail/wholesale of the customer will pay the price, no matter what that is if he or she wants the item. As recently late last year I was speaking to a well known retailer and he expressed this attitude to me and seemed oblivious to the buying that is now occurring from other markets. I had someone ring me re a cyclone purchase and actually ask if he could buy it OS cheaper than I could supply it, I thought that a bit cheeky! In fact it would cost him more to import it and I told him so but I don't think he believed me.

barkersegg

26th February 2012, 10:50 PM

Retailers will adapt to the changing market as we consumers become more literate in our purchases - either that or close up......as an aside, I purchased some tools direct from the US last week - the local Australian Importer/retailer told me that he could order them for me but there would be a 1-2 month delay at best owing to postal service delays both in the US and here in Oz - he couldn't guarantee a delivery time so suggested I try direct - all up they would have fitted in a beer box slab and weighed about 10 lbs.....not a big order by any means so I contacted the US supplier who said would he sell them to me and arrange delivery, I ordered them online, paid via cc and the goods were delivered to my door 4 days later via the friendly FedEx van.....that's from Tennessee US to rural Victoria......the freight charge was about the same whether I chose USPS or FedEx - guess I picked the right one as normally they take 10-15 days via post............it does make you wonder how the retailers in Oz are going to try and compete with service like that......it'll be a challenge.:doh:....Lee

Greg Q

27th February 2012, 02:29 AM

My wife's car needs a new valve cover gasket...typical for the make at 100k. Local dealer: $240 plus 2 hours labour at $115. Same make dealer ex California $38.95 shipped, install myself in three hours for free. $470 for a new gasket? As if.

Bought a diagnostics code reader (automotive) for $59 delivered this week. The same thing here is $125 delivered. How come even the local ebay sellers reckom that they can buy a common ebay item and try to double the price while selling it on...ebay?

A mate recently installed a new Gaggenau cooktop in his kitchen reno. Here they cost about $7000. He had it delivered FedEx from California for about $1200 all up. The internet is rife withh stories of people saving $35,000 actial dollars on container loads of kitchen appliances and living room furniture over the local prices. Including the container freight and all of the local wharf rip-off charges.

Having negotiated the recent surface plate buy I am more willing to do other things in the future. There is no way that something should go from China to the US, be purchased at retail, get road freighted many 100's of miles, get container shipped here for 1/2 the local price.

Just now, while I couldn't sleep I bought a new pair of uniform shoes from copshoes.com for 40% of the local price. Beats me why this happens. The industry in which I toil is an international one. Local customers are free to choose whoever they want based on price only, if at suits. I insist on having the same freedoms, especially when the local sales guys offer no stock and no service.

PDW

27th February 2012, 08:37 AM

Bought a diagnostics code reader (automotive) for $59 delivered this week. The same thing here is $125 delivered. How come even the local ebay sellers reckom that they can buy a common ebay item and try to double the price while selling it on...ebay?

Heh. Found a book I wanted on Ebay with what looked like a reasonable BIN price. Reading the fine print I find the seller has no stock but will order & drop-ship to you. Well, bugger that, check with Bookfinder, Book Depository has the same book for less including shipping.

I wrote to the Ebay guy telling him what I thought of his business model and where I could get the same thing for less. He did reply but I didn't bother reading it. What, realistically, could he say that I'd be interested in reading?

Retailers are going to have to offer prices within 20% (less for big ticket stuff) of best international price or go out of business. If that means flattening the sales chain to cut out importers & distributors, so sad, too bad, with modern IT their time may have passed as part of a viable business model. Not like they often carry stock or provide willing warranty support anyway, as numerous people have pointed out.

PDW

Chris Parks

27th February 2012, 10:40 AM

It is cheaper to buy tyres from the US by a long way which is something that may not occur to people. I can buy certain things from NZ cheaper than I can here due to our dollar advantage.

Pete F

27th February 2012, 12:00 PM

Where one door closes another door opens. Maybe the retailers could reinvent themselves as niche importers, bringing in containers packed with individual people's direct imports? From what I've seen there's definitely a BIG market there for some enterprising individual who doesn't fall into the "I want it all right now" trap.

In my mind therein lies the truth. We have a culture of wanting all or nothing. How many times have I heard "Well it's got to be worth my while ...", true enough, but not when the person's time is worth about $12.50 an hour and not the several hundred he just quoted to do the job! The other day I was about to go to work when I found one of the sewer drains was potentially blocked. Not wanting to take a chance of it turning pear shaped while I was away I called a plumbing company who had left a magnet in our letterbox, all in all a good opportunity to establish a relationship with a plumber for my wife to trust and call upon when I'm away. This wasn't an "emergency job" or some weird hours. It's a 20 minute job to run the water blaster down to the boundary trap, 10 minutes to do the paperwork, and say 30 minutes travel time. I give the guy a hand to do it (a good thing as if I wan't there he would have flooded my workshop due faulty equipment). The total cost, 2 hours labour, a $90 "service fee", a $150 "equipment fee"; total, 300 bucks, thanks for coming! Are you freaking kidding me. I didn't say anything as I knew this guy was just an employee and I could tell even he was embarrassed about asking for the money, but one thing is for sure they'll never see my business again. I just hope they ring up to find out how the job went, then I'll let them have it :(( Sadly it seems nobody is interested in establishing long-term relationships anymore, instead it's all the big money grab while it's there. Here was a perfect opportunity for this company to have a small but steady stream of easy work, but instead their "magnet" just went out in the last rubbish collection due to their greed.

Look at Australia's "Rich List" 10 years ago and it was mainly retailers, sadly the greed doesn't stop there.

Pete

Big Shed

27th February 2012, 12:31 PM

Whilst internet sales receive a lot of media coverage, this article puts the overall size of internet sales in perspective.

Online retail expanding at fast pace: NAB (http://www.theage.com.au/business/online-retail-expanding-at-fast-pace-nab-20120227-1txih.html)

It also makes the point that Oz retailers have been caught napping and are only now waking up that there is a revolution going on.

Pete F

27th February 2012, 01:16 PM

Personally I don't think the retailers in Australia even "get" what this is all about. Personally I have no problem in paying a premium to a bricks-and-mortar retailer if they know their product, can solve the problem for which I'm seeking to buy the product, and can back it up with good warranty and service. Yet almost invariably when I go into a store in Australia virtually none of those apply! Yet it's not impossible, go into an Apple Store to see how it should be done; there are plenty of well educated (and I'm supposing well paid) enthusiastic staff so you don't need to wait forever, they know the products and are enthusiastic about them, in addition the products simply work as (or better) than advertised. When there's a problem their warranty and service is second to none! Just last time I had a keyboard fail (I think it was even my fault as a result of cleaning it). I went to the store to buy a new one. The staff went to extraordinary efforts to try to get me a solution under warranty, even though they no longer had a warranty obligation. I was basically being insistant that I wanted to simply pay for a new one. So what happened? They GAVE me one for nothing. As a result I am more than happy to pay a premium for these products and always buy them from stores. I have many MANY thousands of dollars worth of Apple products now, indeed it's my electronics company of choice. I've had some other warranty or support experiences with them and all have been WAY above expectations.

Contrast that to a well known Australian retailer of machinery. In addition to many other things I bought a cheap wire wheel for my grinder, but it was only a 6" and not the 8" I thought it was. I returned it unused expecting to be able to exchange it for the larger wheel and pay the difference. No dice. Not their problem they said. Guess what, they can stick their over-priced products where the sun doesn't shine and I will only go to their store again if/when I have absolutely no other choice. They're even trying to sell their Chinese crap on ebay at the same retail prices. I don't expect them to be in business too much longer.

I equally believe that it's morally wrong to go into a good retailer (ie one of the few that could be described as above), pick their brains, try their products, and expect them to be the contact point for service, only to then go online to buy the product for a very small price saving. That's just not fair. Everyone deserves the right to earn a living IF they're prepared to work for it. But if retailers expect me to sponsor their laziness then they have another thing coming ... hopefully bankruptcy!

Pete

Chris Parks

27th February 2012, 01:59 PM

Personally I don't think the retailers in Australia even "get" what this is all about.

This is exactly what I feel, they don't understand what has driven people to buy offshore and those same clever people are shown not to be too clever when it comes to real competition. They prefer to do what past governments have been opposed to and that is to subsidise and put up what effectively are tariff walls so they can carry on as normal, that is rip us off with absurd margins.

It is not only the retailers, the real culprits are the importers, they set the base price. I have to say though until you have to manage the large scale importation of products you have no idea of the back end costs. Those costs are real and substantial but must be the same for most countries I would think. It takes a lot of hours to organise even a small import business and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. When you make a one off purchase it all seems so simple, try it on a larger scale and tell me what your experience is.

GraemeCook

27th February 2012, 02:33 PM

Good Morning

I am a retired accountant and did have retailers as clients, so I know the margins on which they work. Believe me, the big margins are made at the importer level, not the retailer level. Of course, the Big Chains are both importer and retailer. The small guys rarely are.

We have just done a total kitchen renovation and I did an in-depth analysis of sourcing options and costs. This covered electrical items - ovens, cook top, range hood, fridge, freezer, dish washer, etc. - and kitchen fittings - drawer runner systems, soft close hinges, handles, sinks, taps, etc. We could have flown to England or Switzerland, had a months holiday, bought the goods and shipped them home, paid customs and GST, and still saved a considerable amount on local prices. The only thing lacking would have been an Australian warrantee, but if anything failed catastrophically then we would have had sufficient funds left over to buy a new item and have it shipped from Europe!

On most items the tax free European price was approximately 33% of the Australian retail price, sometimes 25%.

Interestingly, the best deal in Australia is actually on the "agency brands" - Miele, Gaganau, etc, where the importer owns the stock in the retailers store and rigorously enforces his pricing strategy. For kitchen items of "agency brands" the Australian retail price is commonly only 50% above European prices (Vs 200% or more for other brands). It seems that the "agency importers" are using retail price maintenance to stop the greedy little sh*t from raising retail prices - the opposite of what they are frequently accused of. [Neil; please note that I did not embarass you by naming the greedy little sh*t.]

Fair Winds

Graeme

Pete F

27th February 2012, 02:40 PM

Chris, I have just gone through the process of importing a lathe and it was no trivial feat. I find it difficult to believe that if somebody was routinely importing container loads full of products that they wouldn't establish a relationship with a freight forwarder who would make the whole process much easier and cheaper. Indeed from those I've spoken to who have done this more often, that's precisely the feedback I've received; like anything it gets easier and cheaper the more they've done it. Most of the relative expenses in my case were as a result of me NOT having a full container load. My neighbour, who imported a full bulldozer didn't pay much more than I did in wharf fees. I agree, the wharf situation in Australia is a disgrace bordering on criminal, but I don't buy that (pardon the pun) as the reason for the absurd disparity in price between goods bought locally compared to overseas. I've flown stuff in as air freight (and I'm not talking posting or using a courier company) and it was in contrast quite straight forward. Many of the companies I'm referring to (such as the one I referred to above, it's first name sounds like something many of us have on our heads :) ) they don't even deal with middle-men, they import directly from the factories.

Graeme, besides the above, that is all once again returning to the cost basis, and the reason I feel retailers in Oz just don't "get it". As I said above, I'm more that happy to pay a premium if I feel the retailer is working for their money in providing a solution to my needs. So while cost is definitely a factor, it's not the only factor. However I simply refuse to pay a premium for absolutely nothing. Greg and I have the luxury of routinely shopping overseas in person. I can't speak for Greg, but with his background I would be surprised if he didn't agree that the difference between the traditional Australian retailer and a US retailer is like night and day. In the US the culture is one of wanting and NEEDING a person's business to survive. If they don't, competition says you'll walk down the road to the next store and buy it. Not only does that sharpen up the price, the service just craps all over what we've come to expect here as the norm. In US retail they typically employ morons on minimum wage (which really IS minimum there), so you'd expect the service to be poor. However the corporate culture of the company they work for more than makes up for it. The corporate retail culture in Australia has grown fat and lazy on past success and is now turning to any possible excuse under the sun to try to justify their imminent failure. Personally I have absolutely no sympathy.

I do agree however that often the problem in Australia are too many middlemen trying to "earn a living" off of too little. They get an exclusive distribution right to a product in the country and milk it for all it's worth. One thing I'll never suggest is that the small retailers are somehow swimming in money. In their case my objection is the very poor service they simply think is part of the retail "experience".

Pete

fxst

27th February 2012, 03:08 PM

Here again another subject that would be much better placed in 'nothing to do with woodworking. How about observing the practice of posting in the appropriate section:((
Could the mods please move this to the right setion please
Pete

Chris Parks

27th February 2012, 03:16 PM

.RC.

27th February 2012, 03:58 PM

Interestingly, the best deal in Australia is actually on the "agency brands" - Miele, Gaganau, etc, where the importer owns the stock in the retailers store and rigorously enforces his pricing strategy. For kitchen items of "agency brands" the Australian retail price is commonly only 50% above European prices (Vs 200% or more for other brands). It seems that the "agency importers" are using retail price maintenance to stop the greedy little sh*t from raising retail prices - the opposite of what they are frequently accused of. [Neil; please note that I did not embarass you by naming the greedy little sh*t.]

Fair Winds

Graeme

You can run into problems importing electrical items that "must be wired by an authorised person" as they will not have the all important c-tick.. Electricians are not supposed to wire in stoves etc that are not tested in Australia lest they create a singularity that all of creation gets sucked into...

heh heh when I pointed out on another forum, that you just wire it yourself my post got deleted as "illegal" lucky this forum is much more liberal minded...

All of those that buy those VFD's from china... Well you are all dirty criminals... :U

Pete F

27th February 2012, 04:06 PM

The costs are still there even if scaled, they do not disappear but not be used as a prop to justify stupid mark ups as is happening now. Some people seem to think they are insignificant and should be ignored because they buy one item and it magically appears on their door step a week later. They are not insignificant and they can't be ignored.

I agree, there's a massive difference between buying something online and having it posted or couriered out compared to actually "importing" something like a container or even single piece of machinery. However your comment about scaling was precisely my point Chris, many of the import costs don't scale at all, the fees are very nearly (or in some cases precisely) equal whether the person imports one lathe as I did, or a whole container load full of lathes as a direct importer would. The total costs of these fees for a full container sized consignment really are insignificant in my book, compared to the trivial amount sea freight costs (as opposed to the private person posting it out by air). I was frankly shocked at how little my lathe cost to have freighted from Hong Kong. It was when it landed in Australia that the gouges began. Nevertheless, amortize those costs over a full container of lathes and the costs (excluding the actual freight cost) might be something like $50 each. Peanuts in other words. I guess you import your cyclones Chris, so would know all this full well, the savings one can make once going to full containers is very significant, yet many of the "paperwork" costs stay the same. Importing one only is frankly a PIA and expensive, the importers know that and charge accordingly.

Pete

Edit: Incidentally I've had one PM about importing and don't want to give the impression that the costs Chris alluded to above are trivial, far, FAR from it. The fees and charges on Australian wharfs are simply disgusting. However my point was simply that many of them don't scale, or at the very least not linearly. So for a sole import the fees are VERY significant, but they're very VERY much less in relative terms if the importer is regularly bringing in container loads as full containers. Given that the thread is about Australian retailers in general, I just wanted to urge that the comments should be taken in that context.

GraemeCook

27th February 2012, 06:29 PM

You can run into problems importing electrical items that "must be wired by an authorised person" as they will not have the all important c-tick.. Electricians are not supposed to wire in stoves etc that are not tested in Australia lest they create a singularity that all of creation gets sucked into...

Its not quite that drastic when importing from Western European countries, RC. When my brother returned from Switzerland he brought a houseload of new stuff with him and paid the 5% customs and 10% GST - mainly V Zug and Siemens brand - and had no difficulties with the electrical stuff but the gas cooktop was a pain. Apparently Europe and Aus operate on different gas pressures and it is difficult to change this??? Or he had to deal with the wrong person.....

With the electrical gear he just had to demonstrate the the models imported were available in Australia, and therefore that model had been certified for Australia, even though there is nothing on the gear to say so. He got an "also sold as" chart from Siemens Bosh which listed the model numbers for identical products sold in different markets. Sometimes an oven might have a model number #1234UK for the British market, #1234D for Germany, #1234AU for Australia and so on; sometimes the numbers were totally different. [Note, this for stuff to be used by a private importer, not stuff for resale.]

Fair Winds

Graeme

.RC.

27th February 2012, 06:39 PM

simonl

27th February 2012, 09:55 PM

With my surface plate..

The total cost of shipping and handling fees was $862... The actual freight portion of this was US$250..

Luckily for me the seller only included the US$250 in the quote as they forgot to include the freight forwarder charges. Otherwise I would never have got my beautiful plate...

The charges are just obscene and it is not all the fault of the freight forwarder, the port charges stupid amounts for the bit they do...

DITTO.

When I imported a mill from China I thought I was pretty thoughrough in determining ALL the fees and charges in getting it landed in Melbourne. Having not done it before I was amazed at all the charges and fees on top of the freight. In fact the freight charges were the cheapest part and I negotiated with the supplier to include this in the purchase price, it was the forwarding, port charges import duty and GST that eroded much of the savings.

It seems that as soon as everyone gets a sniff that you have some cash to spend, they all want a piece of the action too!

My mill and accessories still ended up a fair bit cheaper than if I bought it here, and that was a one off purchase. If I negotiated a price from the manufacturer based on a container load then I would have cleaned up. Also the forwarding fees and port charges would be about the same or perhaps little more making the total cost per item significantly cheaper.

Hence I came to the conclusion that places like H&F and the like must really bend us over if I can make a one off purchase and still compete with them.

PS I didn't mind paying import duty and GST. Fairs fair but the port charges left me a little disappointed!

Cheers,

Simon

Pete F

28th February 2012, 09:49 AM

Simon, yes that was just my point that I was suggesting above; many of the fees don't scale up at all, or minimally, whereas the relative costs come down dramatically once full containers are being handled.

The problem is once landed in Australia they know they've got you by the shorts. You want your consignment, then pay up! One of my "fees" was cash only if you don't mind. While I made sure I got a receipt I suspect that one went straight to the Christmas fund. What do you do? If you DID manage to make a fuss I have absolutely no doubt the consignment would be "damaged in transit". There are few people as organisations that I've dealt with that I have such contempt for as the A/holes on the wharf. I've never seen so many people sitting around doing sweet FA than when I go down there, they make a council road crew look like Chinese sweat-shop! I simply can't imagine what it must have been like 20 years ago.

Pete

Grahame Collins

28th February 2012, 10:32 PM

Hi Guys
I can certainly confirm that some Aussie firms offer bloody awful service.

I have had really ABYSMAL service from a local mob of long standing who really don't deserve to be around much longer and won't be if the service I received WAS any indicator. I wanted to buy a 200mm (8") wheel diameter bench grinder.

I was surfed in and out of sites looking for the best combination of
Watts, wheel thickness and rigidity of tool plate and wheel flange thickness.

The one I liked the best based on its 900 watts of power and long Aussie made heritage but the site did not have a decent photo or all the info on the tool post (was it cast iron or pressed metal and I wanted some idea if the wheel flanges were not recycled jam tins as I have seen on lesser machines.The website also mentioned a replacement switch.I reasoned that being chinese made, the electrics would not be too flash and would a replacement switch be a good idea?

I sent emails on three or four occasions.1 to the general site no answer after 2 weeks , no 2 to the general manager who passed the email on and it was replied to after 2 weeks but no answer to my original inquiries. Just a promise to chase up someone who might know the details. Finally an reply from someone telling me it would have been easier to make a phone call-but no details.

Like a fool I had already ordered it at my local tool monger as I got a special on it. After 2 weeks my local supplier said it had not turned up yet as they, the manufacturer, had lost the order. When the bench grinder did finally arrive it came with a shattered wheel and a burred stud ( one that clamps the tool holder)

Immediately I returned it for warranty where it sits now, I have asked the warranty dealer to inspect the shaft spindle as I suspect it may be bent.

I suspect that sales staff have no idea about the grinder probably comes direct and they had no way of answering my inquiry.

The reputation of this old well known Aussie company is no longer PEERLESS. For all Forumites trying to buy Aussie made or at least from an Aussie company that will not give you answers, I say why bloody bother.

The lack of enthusiasm should have warned me.Service! before and after sales on decent products, is all that Oz companies really have as an advantage.

No longer should we support companies just because they are OZ!

Do what you always did and you'll get what you always got.
Companies like DAWN and MUMME and taking the fight back to the
Overseas mobs and doing well at it.How ? With good service and good products.
Soon as our locals start recycling chinese crap as their own product, they are headed down the slippery slope into the gurgler.:(

The trouble is ,where do we then go, when the manufacturers of decent products have closed their doors? Why do we keep on buying crap that needs replacement on an ongoing basis?:((

Its a communistic conspiracy I tell ya :oo: and the likes of the GM others taught them about the "throw away"society. The chinese , not being stupid have refined into an art. Not be able to beat the West in other ways they have brought it to its knees, with out a battle and with its own most powerful weapon-the mighty dollar.

Heres an idea then! :doh:
Lets try to support the Companies and businesses that are having a good Aussie go.If you have something good to say about an Aussie company that has impressed you with product and/or service ,lets start a new thread.

I for one want my grand kids to be able to buy good Aussie products.:2tsup: What do you all say?

Steps down off soapbox and wanders off into the crowd.:D

Grumpy Grahame the curmudgeon teacher,

jack620

29th February 2012, 08:38 AM

For all Forumites trying to buy Aussie made or at least from an Aussie company that will not give you answers, I say why bloody bother.

I sent Hercus an online query about a lathe part in early Jan. No response from them yet. I could ring them and chase it up, but as you say Grahame, why bother?

Pete F

29th February 2012, 09:43 AM

I sent Hercus an online query about a lathe part in early Jan. No response from them yet. I could ring them and chase it up, but as you say Grahame, why bother?

In all fairness Hercus stopped making lathes well over 20 years ago! They are a power transmission company now. Nevertheless, personally I have found the staff at Hercus extremely generous with their time. I make a conscious effort NOT to contact them and encourage others to do likewise, in the hope that when people are REALLY stuck, the guys at Hercus who are still left from when they did make lathes won't mind helping out. Likewise I have bought all manner of trivia (DVDs, books, manuals) that I could have done without from their ebay site, just to try to encourage them not to abandon this area completely. Basically the only parts they still sell are from the old stock they still have lying around, and I dare say that will be gone soon too. If it's a part you're after I'd suggest you'd have more success asking Australian Metalworking Hobbyist (http://www.australianmetalworkinghobbyist.com/store/)

Many of the Hercus lathes getting around are from the 60s, try ringing a Holden dealer and asking for a park for an EK! I reckon the guys in spares would get a real laugh out of that one :p

Pete

jack620

29th February 2012, 10:29 AM

Their website has a link to the Hercus 260 under PRODUCTS and also to their 260 refurbishment service under SERVICES. Therefore, I don't consider it unreasonable to for me contact them about my 260. The part I need IS in stock, I was just enquiring about the best way to purchase/pay for it.

If Holden's website advertised a refurbishment service for EK Holdens I would similarly expect that they would respond to an enquiry about an EK.

Pete F

29th February 2012, 01:28 PM

I can only go by my experience with Hercus, and as a rule they have been exceptionally good.

The only spare part Hercus list on their site is a chip guard for the 260, they also list their Text Book of Turning, neither listing mentions anything about stock levels. Which one is it, as I may also be able to assist. I agree, if you contact any company, whether they can, or even want to, assist or not, it is simply common courtesy to reply. It may be possible their on-line form isn't working correctly, I have absolutely no idea, simply that I (and I know of many other members also) have contacted them on a number of occasions over the years and have found them to go above and beyond what could really be expected.

Perhaps you could try using the email link instead of the form. I've found the latter can sometimes be unreliable when contacting companies.

Pete

.RC.

29th February 2012, 02:54 PM

In all fairness Hercus stopped making lathes well over 20 years ago!

Well maybe 10 years ago :)

And as a hard working person that does some work close to the waterfront (usually within a metre of it) I resent all that vitriol directed to my fellow workers..... You have no idea of how stressful it is to work with no brain, to place a strap on a hook, then repeat for the next few hours.... Hell something like flying a plane would be a less stressful job, at least there you just sit back and let the computer do all the work while the Captaint/FO flirt with the hosties...

jack620

29th February 2012, 03:18 PM

It may be possible their on-line form isn't working correctly...

Possibly. The part is the crossfeed nut. I would happily purchase it from Australian Metalworking Hobbyist, but Mal only has bronze ones listed on the website. My 260 has a cast iron one fitted, so I wanted to replace it with the same material. I rang Hercus last year and they do stock them. I haven't pushed it because I can live with the worn nut (for now). When I can no longer tolerate it I'll ring them. :wink:

Pete F

29th February 2012, 04:43 PM

Well maybe 10 years ago :)

And as a hard working person that does some work close to the waterfront (usually within a metre of it) I resent all that vitriol directed to my fellow workers..... You have no idea of how stressful it is to work with no brain, to place a strap on a hook, then repeat for the next few hours.... Hell something like flying a plane would be a less stressful job, at least there you just sit back and let the computer do all the work while the Captaint/FO flirt with the hosties...

Didn't Hercus stop production of the 260s in the early 90s?

It was certainly eye opening to be down on the wharves, actually quite scary as those container loaders a huge and you don't argue with them! One time while I was ducking out the way of one I watched as the loader smashed the container into another stack, the container door flew open and almost got ripped off, then off he went as if it was a regular thing to do. I thought to myself FFS, if an idiot like myself can be taught how to land hundreds of tonnes of shiny metal at 200+ kph, surely these guys could manage to dodge a stationary stack of containers without incident! :rolleyes:

Pete

Hell something like flying a plane would be a less stressful job, at least there you just sit back and let the computer do all the work while the Captaint/FO flirt with the hosties...

Holy Cow, I hope not ... have you seen our hosties!!!*

* I'm sure they're very nice girls deep inside :P

.RC.

29th February 2012, 04:53 PM

Early 2000's they stopped the 260... Then not long after that they built the last of the real South Bend lathes.. Retail priced at a pretty sum of US $18 000 each I believe..

My 260 is from the early-mid 90's...

bwal74

29th February 2012, 09:32 PM

Hi,

I used to drive gantry cranes and truck tugs at CTAL ports in Sydney about 12 years ago. Apparently it cost $1600.00 every time we moved a 20ft container. Not sure how true this was but I was earning 24.00 p/hr for a day shift (and the money went up by halves for each of the 3 shafts per day, don't ask about weekends and public holidays).

Back on topic, we are being ripped off in Australia by pretty much anyone who sells anything. How can I buy a book from London for less than $10.00 delivered to my door or pay $25.00 plus from a local bookshop? Books, tools, electronics or anything else you buy your paying more than you should. Good service helps, but it shouldn't cost that much.

Ben

ps, I seen a Hercus 260ATM numbered 20??? without a scratch or barely a mark on it.

Greg Q

29th February 2012, 10:04 PM

Holy Cow, I hope not ... have you seen our hosties!!!*

* I'm sure they're very nice girls deep inside :P

Oh yeah, I'm sure. Deep inside and long, long ago.:cool:

PDW

1st March 2012, 08:49 AM

Oh yeah, I'm sure. Deep inside and long, long ago.:cool:

I don't fly Virgin simply because they're cheaper, you know.

QANTAS abandoned flying to Tasmania so I abandoned QANTAS and subsidiaries. My take on Jetstar is, it offers the worst service it can get away with so as not to take business from the full service branch but to provide an alternative to Virgin for the budget traveller. I only use them if their price is substantially cheaper *and* the flight time is more convenient.

PDW

Pete F

1st March 2012, 09:35 AM

My take on Jetstar is, it offers the worst service it can get away with so as not to take business from the full service branch but to provide an alternative to Virgin for the budget traveller.

PDW

Greg, someone's caught on to the sca ... errr, I mean "business model". If we're not careful, next he'll be ratting on how he's also discovered by the time he's added up all the extra fees and changes the airfare works out around the same anyway. There goes the family's future! Better send da boyz down to Tassie to sort this little "problem" out before word gets out!

Vince

PDW

1st March 2012, 11:34 AM

Greg, someone's caught on to the sca ... errr, I mean "business model". If we're not careful, next he'll be ratting on how he's also discovered by the time he's added up all the extra fees and changes the airfare works out around the same anyway. There goes the family's future! Better send da boyz down to Tassie to sort this little "problem" out before word gets out!

Vince

Last time I needed to come up to Sydney, it was only marginally more expensive (ignoring value of my time which approximates zero) to get the ferry & drive. A lot more convenient and less hassle. I truly hate the entire flying 'experience' these days, starting from trying to book a ticket without being gouged and working from there. I have to fly up in 3 weeks for my youngest's 21st b/day, time to start fare shopping. Not driving up until end April or early May.

PDW

Greg Q

1st March 2012, 11:55 AM

I feel your pain, PDW. Unfortunately the malignant dwarf who is charge of the "vision" thing sees a different universe. Wanna know what happens when you put a cynic in charge of something? A cynical contempt for everyone and everything.

Greg Q

1st March 2012, 12:01 PM

Greg, someone's caught on to the sca ... errr, I mean "business model". If we're not careful, next he'll be ratting on how he's also discovered by the time he's added up all the extra fees and changes the airfare works out around the same anyway. There goes the family's future! Better send da boyz down to Tassie to sort this little "problem" out before word gets out!

Vince

I think that ship has sailed, Pete. Speaking of which, I thought that the Costa Concordia imagery would have put folks off sea voyages. That, and management assures me that the consumer is too just plain stupid to do the maths on "unbundled" fares*

*this is management's term for it. They even admit that the total fare is about the same, but that their customer base is too dumb to figure that out. They camouflage it under the "choice" banner. Freedom of Choice! Yay! You choose to be able to use your legs after the trip? Good Choice sir! That'll be $120 extra. etc etc, repeat until wallet empty.

Pete F

1st March 2012, 02:07 PM

IThat, and management assures me that the consumer is too just plain stupid to do the maths on "unbundled" fares*

*this is management's term for it. They even admit that the total fare is about the same, but that their customer base is too dumb to figure that out. They camouflage it under the "choice" banner. Freedom of Choice! Yay! You choose to be able to use your legs after the trip? Good Choice sir! That'll be $120 extra. etc etc, repeat until wallet empty.

Yep, I have to giggle at some of the "choices" that people are supposed to have. Like the check in fee, ? Ok I won't check in then. "Well sorry Sir, you won't be able to board the flight unless you check in!". The thing is, ask somebody how much they paid to travel between x and y and they'll swear it was the initial $59 headline fare :doh: You'd think the fact JetStar had an overweight comedian as their mascot would be a bit of a clue wouldn't you.

Of course this site sums it up much better than I ever could
http://thingsboganslike.com/tag/tiger/

Peter, if you want an unpleasant experience try flying in the US. They have screwed it up to the point where I find it remarkable that anyone would put themselves through the experience. Sadly we're very rapidly catching up with them.

Pete

PDW

1st March 2012, 05:51 PM

Peter, if you want an unpleasant experience try flying in the US. They have screwed it up to the point where I find it remarkable that anyone would put themselves through the experience. Sadly we're very rapidly catching up with them.

Pete

Been there, done that. I worked in Tucson for a while, used to commute Sydney-LAX (bad) then LAX-Tucson on SW Airlines. Been 10 years and I still haven't forgotten it. No plans to repeat the experience, either.

When my son went to the USA he went via Japan. If I go back over, I'm flying to Vancouver first then crossing the land border. At least the Canadians are relatively civilised and if the US border people toss me out because they don't like something I've posted on the net, it's not so far to go. Annoying because I like the USA, I get on well with the people I worked with and visited, but since 9/11 the officials have become so paranoid and hostile that I can't see why I should bother visiting again by aircraft.

Maybe when I get the big toy in the water I'll sail over. Been thinking I should have built a bigger one so I could bring a metal planer home as ballast.

PDW

PDW

2nd March 2012, 09:37 AM

Boy, ain't that the truth. You have obviously seen the reports of that British couple who were run over the coals owing to some twitter posts and having the audacity to quote a (US) animated TV show without attribution.

On 9/11, a day which shall surely live in infamy, to steal a phrase from FDR, 3100 people died, give or take. In the USA that many people die every 6 weeks from gunshot death. So, in the years since 9/11 Ninety times more Americans have been killed (by Americans) than in 9/11. I am all for homeland security, its just that they're looking the wrong way. :no:

Re US domestic air travel. No thanks. I too will fly Air Canada from LAX or JFK to Australia North,( eh mate?), enjoy my visit free from hyper vigilance and return post haste, without stopping in any of my old US haunts for fear of arousing the narrow-eyed suspicion of IQ 91 jack-booted brownshirts.

Oh well. I always wondered what the left side of the bell curve would do for a living once manufacturing went to China. Now I have my answer.

Pete: Too much d'ya think?

Hah. Agree but I think I'll leave it there. We've drifted a long way from Aussie retail and its shortcomings. I got a book from Book Depository yesterday, $11 including postage. Local book shop doesn't have it because the Aussie copyright holder hasn't gotten around to releasing it here as yet. I feel sorry for the book shops, this one is pretty good to excellent and will happily order specials for me but as for the Aussie copyright holders - they really don't get it. The world has changed and the old comfortable way of doing business is dead.

PDW