What is a Toolroom lathe?

[rodm]

Got to wondering what is a toolroom lathe?

Is it a specific type of lathe or is it the type of work that it is used for?

[pipeclay]

Both,it would generally be used in a toolroom enviroment although some job shops do have toolroom quallity machines.
The toolroom lathes are generally built to a high tollerance level that toolrooms would require.

[.RC.]

Today it means SFA, historically it used to mean lathes that came with every accessory under the sun so in the toolroom you could do lots of things with them...

[Michael G]

Toolroom lathes are one of those mythical things that no one really knows what they are (that is, what is and isn't one)
Typically they will be well equipped and featured (as a toolroom will have to do a wide variety of jobs) and have high standards (when new) of accuracy. This means that they will need to be rigid as well and have wide ranges of speeds and feeds.
Although unsubstantiated, a couple of definitions I have heard used in the past are -


The bed width is greater than the centre height
Able to have the direction of feed changed on the apron

These are not exclusive - some toolroom machines will have these features and some won't, so I would suggest that an overriding aspect is that by general consensus a lathe would have to be recognised as being of 'toolroom quality'. Lathes by makers such as Monarch, CVA, Hendey, Hardinge, Okuma and others have all been called toolroom lathes


Michael

[China]

"tool room" is the name you give a lathe when you want more money for it

[new_guy90]

My old work had an abused Takisawa lathe and a Sasta lathe, I would call both quality tool room machines because using them is a dream! both very accurate and heavy built, compare them to a Colchester and there's no competition

Oh and If I see a lathe with a soft start clutch i instantly know its a good machine

[Bryan]

My understanding is toolroom means designed not for production, that is repetitive or heavy work, but more for close tolerance, one-off stuff. But any definition is rubbery. For instance, the Grazianos were supposed to be toolroom lathes, but could be ordered with copy turning attachments.

Edit: Nothing in my Graz literature mentions toolroom, so that label may be apocryphal.

[new_guy90]

My understanding is toolroom means designed not for production, that is repetitive or heavy work, but more for close tolerance, one-off stuff. But any definition is rubbery. For instance, the Grazianos were supposed to be toolroom lathes, but could be ordered with copy turning attachments.

Edit: Nothing in my Graz literature mentions toolroom, so that label may be apocryphal.


Hydrolic copy turning wasn't strictly for production they had capstans and even NC/CNC machines from mid last century. If you look at literature for tracer attachments for mills they were more useful in the tool and die shops than a standard production line.

[Anorak Bob]

A Boley 5LZ.

Photo lifted from Tony's website. More info here about this delight. Page Title (http://www.lathes.co.uk/boley5lz/)

[GZBMW]

"Means SFA" my A###!!!

Toolroom lathes existed and exist now. If you were lucky enough to work for the defense dept research laboratories in Maribyrnong during the 1950's to 1980's, then you would know. Dean Smith and Grace, Studer, some of the better Graziano's and Schaublin's. My goodness what excellent machines. So many machines that Germany, Austria and Switzerland produced were just remarkable in terms of their accuracy and precision. Though not lathes, but working on Swiss SIP jig borers with the optical readouts was such a pleasure. Pretty much it was the Govt that could afford these very high priced machines.

Sadly, what most people see are the crap that H&F sell from China and think that it's good stuff.

I am on the hunt for such a lathe. I have is a Hercus that my Father bought in 1970 but my mill is a Thiel 158 (go on, google image it). It came from the Govt Aircraft Factory toolroom (where toolroom lathes were located). If I bought another larger lathe, I would still keep my little Hercus.

It does depend on the shop, but in my opinion (and so of many of my former colleagues) Toolroom lathes were superior in every way compared to the run of the mill lathe (no pun intended).

Accessories for our Toolroom lathes often were bought from Hettler trading: http://www.hettlertrading.com.au. You will notice under toolholders the original 'multifix' Swiss toolholders that others are now copying.

George

[Kody]

A Toolroom Lathe is a very special and specific form of lathe. The photo of the Boley is an average example. The lathes were very solid with a heavy main spindle and very precise fitted ways and slides. They are extremely accurate and are virtually vibration free. They are used for machining all kinds of punches for hole piercing, boring and machining special dies usually in a four jaw but a very solid face plate was also used. The tool steels these lathes were machining demanded a very rigid machine that could turn to very small tolerances. They were designed to produce only one or three or twenty off more or less and were a joy to use. Most of the steels that I machined were air hardening and were very hard even in the annealed state. Alas, they are not seen much these days as CNC lathes can produce the same work a lot quicker. If you ever come across one for sale, they are definitely worth a second and a third look at. All the ones I have seen when I was an apprentice, were only about 26"/28" between centers at at most.

[Anorak Bob]

"The photo of the Boley is an average example."

Just shows how little I know. Still, I 'd be more than happy with average.

Bob the Dilettante.

ps. I could have just as easily copied and pasted photos of a DS&G, a CVA or a Rivett 1020 toolroom lathe, but I simply chose something that I find particularly attractive and there are a bunch of great photos of the Boley on Tony's site. I might have my head up my #### but I don't care.

[Michael G]

Bob, Boley is a good brand. Without putting words in Kody's mouth I suspect that he used the word 'average' as meaning 'typical'.
The Boley you have pictured is a precision lathe and may have been used more for one off work (eg optical fitting) rather than making hard tooling.
Interestingly both the Monarch and CVA have an MT2 tailstock, supposedly to limit the tooling used in them. Toolroom lathes were not expected to hog off large amounts of material in one go but to be able to remove material in a precise fashion. The dials on the CVA are graduated in thous (on diameter) and are large enough to easily move the dial 1/2 a division - that is, if I could sharpen a tool well enough my lathe should be able to take a 1/4 thou DOC.

Michael

[Bryan]

Dean Smith and Grace, Studer, some of the better Graziano's and Schaublin's.

Which ones would you consider the better Grazianos, George, and why?

[Abratool]

A Boley 5LZ.

Photo lifted from Tony's website. More info here about this delight. Page Title (http://www.lathes.co.uk/boley5lz/)
May I suggest to please read the "Page Title" & stare at the magnificent photos, that accompany it.
Thats for those that may not have already done so.
This lathe is a piece of incredible beauty & design & workmanship.
The scraped slides, generous saddle & compound slide, main bearings & features that one "would walk barefooted over broken glass to get to" :2tsup:
A marvellous piece of engineering. Totally !
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

Bruce, we think alike but we may be orphans here.

[Pete F]

Rod, for what it's worth, my interpretation is that a toolroom lathe is designed where accuracy and surface finish is of the utmost importance, typically at the expense of capacity, both in terms of material removal rate and physical capacity. A production lathe on the other hand is designed to turn out parts as rapidly as possible, and may (relatively speaking) sacrifice a small level of accuracy to do so.

I understand the confusion, as many retailers and/or manufacturers market some lathes as "toolroom" models, when it's really debatable whether that's true. Hercus for example sold some lathes as "toolroom" lathes, but in fact they were simply tighter specced production lathes. I would never consider a Hercus lathe as a "toolroom" lathe regardless of how tight their spec ... and I own two!

If you look at true "toolroom" lathes such as the examples given above, you'll see their capacity is quite small compared to their weight. Take a Monarch 10EE for example, IIRC they're something like 1 1/2 tons, yet a "piddling" 12 x 20" capacity. Compare that to the current H&F gems of Chinese brilliance, and a lathe of roughly the same capacity would be something like an AL-320 weighing in at 280 kg (plus the stand which of course comes with the Monarch). I'd suggest nothing H&F sells is anything like "toolroom" quality, regardless of how loud their quacks to the contrary.

Personally I've never operated a toolroom lathe, but understand they're truly a pleasure to use. I cut my teeth on an old Hercus 9", and progressed to a brand new Hercus 260, my ambition is to acquire the skills and knowledge to be able to buy and rebuild, then properly operate a toolroom lathe. I feel I could operate one now, but don't yet have the necessary skills to rebuild one. Hopefully I'll get there ... eventually.

Pete

[rodm]

Thanks all for the information. :2tsup:
It is what I thought but as I have only ever seen claims in advertising and not been able to see any difference to a standard lathe I began to wonder. Better to ask than be ignorant.

[Ueee]

Hi,
I think anyone that has used both a Chinese machine and a non Chinese machine will know that they just aren't that good, they are ok when new, but there limitations soon become apparent. I'd like to see how accurate they are after 50 years or so, as many of us know how good our older machines are. After owning a HM50 mill i would NEVER buy another hafco machine, i'd rather spend the money on a good old machine and rebuild.

My Conrik/Great scott is a far cry from a toolroom machine, but it was built for military production work, and is 60 odd years old. In my opinion it is still a nicer lathe to use than a hafco though.

Ewan

[Pete F]

Ewan, I certainly don't disagree, but out of interest why do you say that about the HM50? My own personal bias is toward older machines that have been properly rebuilt (and not just given a paint-shop "rebuild"), however that's all that is, my prejudice. I'm very keen to hear the opinions of those who have operated machines like the HM50 and then come to the same conclusion.

I was having a discussion with another member off the board, and as I pointed out we need to keep price in mind when considering machines. When they stopped production, my own crappy 260, in today's dollars, would sell for around $18,000 new if it were still being sold today. Minimum, possibly even more. I sure as heck wouldn't pay $18K for a Hercus, and that's about as far from a toolroom lathe as it's possible to get!! I think a genuine toolroom lathe like my own "dream machine" an Hardinge HLV will set you back something like $60,000! Not chicken-feed. It really brings the price of the Chinese lathes into perspective.

Pete

[Michael G]

Pete, next time you are in town you are welcome to come around to the shed again and see what my lathe feels like - for a start the larger components make it feel so smooth compared to a smaller lathe.

Michael

[Toggy]

Pete,
I will throw my 2 bob's worth in re the HM50.

Play in the spindle, spindle spline loose and rattles like hell on an interupted cut. Poor fit of Y axis dovetails/gibs. Either loose or if adjusted increasing tight spots on in travel.
And the best is a faulty head casting. This casting is apparently powder coated and after warranty ran out;( I barely used the mill during this time due to health problems with the mill staying on the trailer for about 3 months) a greasy mark developed in the join between the head section and the base plate which affixes to the top ram.
On closer inspection when working there is a crack evident in the cast.
This crack releases a thick grease like substance FROM a dry casting which has no lubricant in this area. Seems to have a manufacturing fault with some type of foreign inclusion in it.

I contacted the dealer with a view of having to buy a new head casting so I can use the machine for anything but light cuts. They brushed me off and after some pushing I was told that the head casting is not available as a spare part. Wouldn't give me an answer as to the chance of obtaining a replacement part from a damaged mill.

Rant over. Ken

[Anorak Bob]

Ewan, I certainly don't disagree, but out of interest why do you say that about the HM50? My own personal bias is toward older machines that have been properly rebuilt (and not just given a paint-shop "rebuild"), however that's all that is, my prejudice. I'm very keen to hear the opinions of those who have operated machines like the HM50 and then come to the same conclusion.

I was having a discussion with another member off the board, and as I pointed out we need to keep price in mind when considering machines. When they stopped production, my own crappy 260, in today's dollars, would sell for around $18,000 new if it were still being sold today. Minimum, possibly even more. I sure as heck wouldn't pay $18K for a Hercus, and that's about as far from a toolroom lathe as it's possible to get!! I think a genuine toolroom lathe like my own "dream machine" an Hardinge HLV will set you back something like $60,000! Not chicken-feed. It really brings the price of the Chinese lathes into perspective.

Pete

Hey Pete,

It's sad to see that the pristine 260 has been downgraded to crappy. What has caused the disillusionment?

A concerned BT

[PDW]

Hey Pete,

It's sad to see that the pristine 260 has been downgraded to crappy. What has caused the disillusionment?

A concerned BT

Compare it to other true toolroom lathes and you'll see. It might be in perfect factory condition but it's still a Hercus with all its limitations. A better Hercus, and 'crappy' only applies in comparison to the toolroom lathes, not the current crop of Chinese imports of theoretically the same capacity.

I can't think, offhand, of any toolroom lathe with a screwed spindle nose made in the last 50 years.

Mass comparison for lathes with approx the same capacity:

Hercus belt drive models - easily picked up by 2 people, 100kg??

Hercus 260 - looks about the same mass as my Emco Maximat 11 at just under 200 kg not including stand, but the Emco has a DIN spindle nose (later models D1-4) so can be reversed under full power and a very wide range of pitches covering inch, metric, module and diametral.

Colchester Chipmaster - 550 kg, D1-3 spindle nose, variable speed drive, kinematic 3 point base, wide range of threads etc.

Monarch 10EE - 1500 kg, D1-3 spindle nose, variable speed drive, kinematic 3 point base, wide range of threads etc.

These are the lathes I either own or have had hands-on time. The Chipmaster variable speed drive has not been a design that aged well and the Monarch drive is notorious for its complexity but is a marvel for functionality.

I've seen pix of DS&G and Holbrook toolroom machines and given the chance I'd add one of them to my collection as well.

PDW

[Anorak Bob]

PDW,

My question of Pete was not about a comparison of a little Hercus with a toolroom lathe but simply a query regarding his apparent disappointment with the 260.

I thought Pete would be enamored with his recent acquisition, a brand new, gearbox equipped metric lathe.

I don't own a 260 but I have had some experience with the older nine inch lathes and I am aware of their abilities and limitations. While I have never used a toolroom lathe, I did see a stunning '50s CVA when I visited a local toolmaker's shop. That lathe was in it's own league, as much an artform as a machine.

BT

[Abratool]

Compare it to other true toolroom lathes and you'll see. It might be in perfect factory condition but it's still a Hercus with all its limitations. A better Hercus, and 'crappy' only applies in comparison to the toolroom lathes, not the current crop of Chinese imports of theoretically the same capacity.

I can't think, offhand, of any toolroom lathe with a screwed spindle nose made in the last 50 years.

Mass comparison for lathes with approx the same capacity:

Hercus belt drive models - easily picked up by 2 people, 100kg??

Hercus 260 - looks about the same mass as my Emco Maximat 11 at just under 200 kg not including stand, but the Emco has a DIN spindle nose (later models D1-4) so can be reversed under full power and a very wide range of pitches covering inch, metric, module and diametral.

Colchester Chipmaster - 550 kg, D1-3 spindle nose, variable speed drive, kinematic 3 point base, wide range of threads etc.

Monarch 10EE - 1500 kg, D1-3 spindle nose, variable speed drive, kinematic 3 point base, wide range of threads etc.

These are the lathes I either own or have had hands-on time. The Chipmaster variable speed drive has not been a design that aged well and the Monarch drive is notorious for its complexity but is a marvel for functionality.

I've seen pix of DS&G and Holbrook toolroom machines and given the chance I'd add one of them to my collection as well.

PDW
Just checked the weights of the Hercus 260 for a matter of interest.....
Short bed lathe net....155kg
mounted on cabinet...220kg
Long bed lathe net.....166kg
mounted on cabinet....235kg
regards
Bruce

[Ueee]

Pete,
Ken has saved me having to say some things, but here's some more. Y ways are just machined, not ground, x gib has been over scraped and needs shimming, quill lock moves quill back and causes knocking in splines (fix by Dave J), top bearing is not tapered(also fix by Dave J)belts cannot be tightened sufficiently in some speeds as the motor pulley hits the back of the housing, poor assembly and lubing when delivered, "fine" downfeed doesnt always engage properly (probably lube in clutch) EVERYTHING rattles when doing interrupted cuts with carbide. Basically just poor attention to detail at all levels, from design through to assembly.

The biggest downer though is just the feel of the machine. My lathe, although some 55 years old just feels gorgeous to use. Sometimes i just want to spin the handweels just to feel the silky smoothness. The HM50 feels neither smooth nor silky, although i am planing a full strip-down, clean and lube, maybe it will improve the feel.
If you have never experienced this feeling with a machine, then try to before trying a Chinese one, you will immediately feel the difference.

Having said that the machine does a great job at what it was bought to do- roughing out re-enactment swords ready for linishing. In this regards at has paid for itself many times over, and i never thought i would be using it more for much engineering work.

Ewan

[RayG]

I think a genuine toolroom lathe like my own "dream machine" an Hardinge HLV will set you back something like $60,000! Not chicken-feed. It really brings the price of the Chinese lathes into perspective.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Here is one for you... 1982 HARDINGE HLV-H SUPER PRECISION TOOLROOM ENGINE LATHE - ORIGINAL PAINT! | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1982-HARDINGE-HLV-H-SUPER-PRECISION-TOOLROOM-ENGINE-LATHE-ORIGINAL-PAINT-/400276265682?pt=BI_Lathes&hash=item5d32531ad2)

Not within my price range, but with your experience in importing machinery, it might be within your scope.

On the related subject of chinese lathes and mills, I get a lot of work out of my HM52 and my 12x36 Taiwanese lathe... without them I would have nothing, since high priced ultra precision is out of my price range..

They are what they are, low cost, hobbyist machines... and suits the low budget hobbyist... oh, wait that's me... :) and plenty of others I suspect... If I was working full time as a machinist, I would want and expect something better...

The thing that irks me about Chinese machine quality in Australia is that the importers specify what they want and drive the quality down to the absolute lowest that the market will stand, they source mills like the HM52 from multiple factories just shopping for the lowest prices, just to better their margins.

Chinese companies CAN and DO make good stuff, but like everything else it comes with a price.. Let's stop blaming the Chinese, and put the responsibility where it really belongs.

Regards
Ray

[Anorak Bob]

A real draw card for the HLV-H is the availability of parts and accessories. A search for Hardinge on US Ebay usually reveals around 2500 items. A large number of those items are for the HLV-H.

In contrast, a Schaublin search today came up with 111 items. I have not seen an accessory for a Schaublin 125 or 135 in nearly two years of daily trawling Ebay in search of accessories for my mill of which there have been 3.:no:

BT

[Hunch]

Which ones would you consider the better Grazianos, George, and why?

Sorry, certainly not a 180! :p

May interest you, quoted local price for regrind to toolroom quality:hahaha:.....

Bed regrind vees and flats, underside keep faces / saddle regrind / hand scrape in slides, / regrind and fit keep plates / regrind fit tailstock shoe.



$ 880-00 ball park ( gst exclusive ). You dismantle and send in just the bed & saddle, tailstock shoe.

If you could live with the pommy version of the Hardinge....

Tool Lathe, Hardinge Model Not Visible, approx 500mm between Centres, 260mm Auction (0032-5001315) | GraysOnline Australia (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0032-5001315/engineering-and-toolmaking/tool-lathe-hardinge-model-not-visible-approx-500mm-between-centres-260mm)

That small Schaublin of a couple of years back at the Pickles auction that went for a similar price, I'd hazard a guess would be, absolute delight just to turn the handwheels, luxury....

[slhouetteV8]

So the biggest comment so far in regards to the a toolroom lathe is they have more mass and the hand wheels are a delight to use. Delightful hand wheels.

Now if it were a car I could see the need for a little luxury but it's a tool.

[Steamwhisperer]

So the biggest comment so far in regards to the a toolroom lathe is they have more mass and the hand wheels are a delight to use. Delightful hand wheels.

Now if it were a car I could see the need for a little luxury but it's a tool.

Hi Silhouette,
I think you will find that hand wheels being a delight to use means that they are smooth to turn throughout the entire length of the screw with no tight spots or gritty feel which indicates true alignment of the nut with the screw and the dovetails are even for the full length. I also get the feeling you already knew that. :D :rolleyes:

Phil

[slhouetteV8]

Hey Phil, yeah I'm only teasing, ill have to start using the smilies:U I much prefer quality where I can afford it and can fully appreciate nice hand wheels.

[Greg Q]

May interest you, quoted local price for regrind to toolroom quality:hahaha:.....

Bed regrind vees and flats, underside keep faces / saddle regrind / hand scrape in slides, / regrind and fit keep plates / regrind fit tailstock shoe.


$ 880-00 ball park ( gst exclusive ). You dismantle and send in just the bed & saddle, tailstock shoe.



$880? Bargain! Seriously-if that price is for a Graz re-grind I think it's a steal. What am I missing?

Greg

(I'd love to have my Hembrug re-ground, but it needs a special grinder, so I'll have to lap the hardened ways instead.)

[Bryan]

I agree with Greg, that sounds too cheap. People on PM usually talk about bed grinds in 4 figures. Would like to know what Phil thinks.
Edit: But I guess the 'laughing like a drain' smiley indicates you think it's a bit suss too Bill?

Yeah and that's enough cheek from up the back too. At least mine runs. :)

[Pete F]

A real draw card for the HLV-H is the availability of parts and accessories. A search for Hardinge on US Ebay usually reveals around 2500 items. A large number of those items are for the HLV-H.

In contrast, a Schaublin search today came up with 111 items. I have not seen an accessory for a Schaublin 125 or 135 in nearly two years of daily trawling Ebay in search of accessories for my mill of which there have been 3.:no:

BT

Bob, yep that's one of the biggies for me. There is a huge amount of information and spares available for them. The threading operation is also supposed to be an absolute delight to use.

Re the 260, it's all relative Bob. Compared to a genuine toolroom lathe it's a POS, but compared to a current Chinese offering about the same in reverse. No problems with the Hercus lathes, but having been labeled a religious nutter because I was happy with my Apple products I thought if I starting waxing lyrical about my lathes I'm sure I then be accused as the leader of some cult!! :D Having said that, the new one is still sitting on its wheels, not having had a chance to pursue it further. I have however got significantly better at rendering brickwork ... not a lot of lathe use in that though :U

Ewan that's a sad tale, it sounds as if you got an especially bad one and that's always disappointing in itself. It does little to encourage my enthusiasm for them though.

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

Sitting on its wheels. They those caravan jockey wheels you stole aboard in your hand luggage Pete?:U You and I won't pretend our lathes are anything more than they were intended to be. Still, having owned one for ten years, I now couldn't do without it.

Sure I'd like something better but better and affordable are pretty thin on the ground over here. I just happened to be real real lucky with the mill.

BT

[PDW]

PDW,

My question of Pete was not about a comparison of a little Hercus with a toolroom lathe but simply a query regarding his apparent disappointment with the 260.

I thought Pete would be enamored with his recent acquisition, a brand new, gearbox equipped metric lathe.

I don't own a 260 but I have had some experience with the older nine inch lathes and I am aware of their abilities and limitations. While I have never used a toolroom lathe, I did see a stunning '50s CVA when I visited a local toolmaker's shop. That lathe was in it's own league, as much an artform as a machine.

BT

As Pete F said, it's relative. I'd agree the Hercus is way above the equivalent machines sourced from China being sold today except - maybe - for the bed as I'm not sure if the Hercus is hardened or not and I think the Chinese ones are.

If the CVA you're referring to is the one I think it is, it's a knock-off copy of the Monarch 10EE without the 10EE drive system. I agree, a very nice machine. One sold last year less than 2 km from my house in Sydney and I was very, very tempted to bid on it. It went for not much over $3K IIRC, which - if it was in excellent condition - was a very good price.

If you want/need a lathe *now*, you go & buy new within your budget. Given enough time you can trade up to a higher quality used machine.

That optimist glass something has a Colchester Chipmaster converted with a VFD listed for over $5K on Ebay ATM. I'd like to know what he's smoking.... OTOH one with no drive system at all sold for around $1800 on Ebay a week or so back.

The mass issue is important. My Emco Maximat 11 is at least as accurate as the Chipmaster but it can't take the same depth of cut/feed without suffering more deflection. I was using the Chipmaster to make a run of wheels for a sawmill carriage at one point, boring them out for bearings. Once I had the cuts worked out for the first one, I could just do the rest without bothering to stop & measure between cuts. The rigidity buys you that level of repeatability and the rigidity comes from mass and good design.

Pity the Chipmaster doesn't have a single tooth dog clutch in its drive train though.....

PDW

[Michael G]

I had a budget price of $3,000 to regrind my bed. $800 sounds like the price to regrind a lathe of hercus size. The big problem is size. With a bed 1.8m long there are few grinders around that can fit it on the bed.

Michael

[Dave J]

Pete,
Ken has saved me having to say some things, but here's some more. Y ways are just machined, not ground, x gib has been over scraped and needs shimming, quill lock moves quill back and causes knocking in splines (fix by Dave J), top bearing is not tapered(also fix by Dave J)belts cannot be tightened sufficiently in some speeds as the motor pulley hits the back of the housing, poor assembly and lubing when delivered, "fine" down feed doesn't always engage properly (probably lube in clutch) EVERYTHING rattles when doing interrupted cuts with carbide. Basically just poor attention to detail at all levels, from design through to assembly.

The biggest downer though is just the feel of the machine. My lathe, although some 55 years old just feels gorgeous to use. Sometimes i just want to spin the handweels just to feel the silky smoothness. The HM50 feels neither smooth nor silky, although i am planing a full strip-down, clean and lube, maybe it will improve the feel.
If you have never experienced this feeling with a machine, then try to before trying a Chinese one, you will immediately feel the difference.

Having said that the machine does a great job at what it was bought to do- roughing out re-enactment swords ready for linishing. In this regards at has paid for itself many times over, and i never thought i would be using it more for much engineering work.

Ewan

Hi Ewan,
A strip down will make it a smoother machine to operate, I know it did mine on both the first mill and this one. Don't forget to split the nuts to take out backlash while you are there. I found both my Y and Z axis nuts to be sitting to high/low and needed to add shims to them, which made the axis feel a lot better.
I have plans to bore the head casting and press a sleeve into it, then bore and hone that to be a good fit. A piece of hollow cast to do the job is $110.

As Ray said they come out of different factories (I was told by H&F there where 3 or 4). When they had trouble with the warped tables on the HM52's they imported a container load of HM52's from another manufacturer until there original one got there act together (their words) As I was told by them they where sending over green castings and by the time they arrived they where warped.. This batch of HM52 B's arrived with hardened tables which aged the tables.

Ray tried to buy one but found there where no HM52 (B) mills left, but a container was coming in. When they arrived they where not the same as the B models, so I would say they where more expensive so they went back with there standard manufacturer as the problem had been fixed with the tables. As Ray said they are after profits, when I had all my troubles I was told by one guy in the service department "these are only cheap machines" To which I replied $5000 might be cheap to you but not to me. I also told him they never advertised them as cheap Chinese mills, but did advertise them as "A quality machine sold for over 20 years"

I noticed after I was publicly talking about the HM52 (B) they started advertising the HM50 as a B model, bit of a coincidence.

As for the Hercus V's Chinese lathes, I sold my old 9inch Hercus and bought a 12 x 36 lathe from Gasweld. I wouldn't buy one of those smaller Chinese lathes, but my lathe would run rings around my old Hercus lathe, I was very pleased to say the least with the upgrade. I don't have much experience with the H&F's AL335 so I cant comment on what they are like, but they are not put together as well as mine is, and I have also read about a few problems with them.

The mate that bought my Hercus lathe was looking at one of those smaller Chinese lathes. I said to him he would be better off with the Hercus over one of those, and he replied that everyone was telling him that, so he went with the Hercus. As far as I know he still has it.

If it was a choice between a small Chinese lathe and a Hercus I would go the Hercus, but when some of the Hercus lathes are getting up in price toward the price of a lathe like mine, then I would go Chinese.

As for "Tool room lathe" I see some of the Chinese factories selling lathes as tool room lathes. I think they are just using the name to sell there product.

Dave

[pipeclay]

Dave what size cast is it.

[Pete F]

Many of the Hercus lathes (or any used lathe for that matter) are worn when sold on, I was just lucky to find a new one. Deciding between a used Hercus and a new Chinese machine is always a tricky problem. There's no doubt the Chinese machine will be a lucky dip, but at least they're unworn.

Dave I don't know how much you paid for your 12 x 36, but the current price is over $3K for one from H&F. Very few Hercus lathes would sell for that sort of money, indeed most sell for around 1/2 that, so I'm not sure it's a valid comparison. Some would undoubtably find the extra capacity handy however, depending on what they're doing of course.

Pete

[morrisman]

For what it is worth . Last month, I looked at a 1960's Sheraton model AR 9" ( tapered roller head ) , same as my current lathe . It is a ex Frankston TAFE machine .

It needed a general cleanup , but was in good condition overall .

Bed was good , surface rust on it here and there . Half nuts very tight . No broken teeth on any gears . 3 phase motor . Solid original stand .

It sold for $800 which was cheap I think . With some work, it would be a nice machine .

Mike

[Dave J]

Dave what size cast is it.

3 x 4 1/2 x 13 inch long from memory, I have it written down on paper in the shed. It was in stock in Newcastle and that was including GST, it was somewhere around $110-$113.

Dave
Edit,
My mill has a 90mm quill.

[pipeclay]

Did you price solid at the same time,solid is normally cheaper.

[Hunch]

$880? Bargain! Seriously-if that price is for a Graz re-grind I think it's a steal. What am I missing?

Greg

(I'd love to have my Hembrug re-ground, but it needs a special grinder, so I'll have to lap the hardened ways instead.)

I was pleasantly surprised, this is 1m centres, so bank on extra if longer.

If you need the saddle built up with wear strips or turcite...which no doubt you would, there's about half that again. Cross-slide and compound redone, about the same once more.


Edit: But I guess the 'laughing like a drain' smiley indicates you think it's a bit suss too Bill?

Yeah and that's enough cheek from up the back too. At least mine runs.

Dunno about suss, smilie was for turning my sow's ear into silk. :wink:

Always been told it's an expensive exercise - getting ready to fall over backwards with the price. There's another re-builder out Wetherill Park way, be interesting to compare. Hopefully won't come to that, as the effin feed gearbox cover would need to come off to access the cap screws and pins holding the bed according to the parts manual.:o

[Dave J]

Did you price solid at the same time,solid is normally cheaper.


No I never asked, but thanks for the tip. :2tsup:
I went to the engine re-builder first looking for an engine sleeve, but he said I needed a D thickness cylinder sleeve which was around 4-5mm thick and was not a common size. It would cost around $80 or more + gst, so getting the price of $110 was looking good with a 3/4 wall thickness and longer in length. I will ask about solid and see what they say.

The ultimate would be to pick up another complete mill head with power down feed off a Bridgeport copy, but getting a second head in Aus with NT30 spindle will be few and far between. Still this one needs fixing either way.

Dave

[PDW]

The ultimate would be to pick up another complete mill head with power down feed off a Bridgeport copy, but getting a second head in Aus with NT30 spindle will be few and far between. Still this one needs fixing either way.

Dave

I've seen 1 in 30 years of looking and that was R8. There are lots more in the USA, I've given some thought to buying one & shipping it home via Indiana as per the surface plates. I want NT40 because I've a ton of tooling for that taper.

PDW

[Dave J]

I almost bought the one on ebay last year, but the guy would not answer the question about the taper. It turned out he answered after the auction finished and it was a R8, but unknown condition and went for $550.

Dave

[PDW]

I almost bought the one on ebay last year, but the guy would not answer the question about the taper. It turned out he answered after the auction finished and it was a R8, but unknown condition and went for $550.

Dave

Must have missed that one. I've stopped hunting Ebay so religiously as I used to as I don't need a lot of stuff these days (all the spare money goes into the boat). The price was pretty good IMO, I think I paid $600 for my 1J head 20 years ago. I've got the original M head off the mill in a cupboard as one day I'm going to mount the J head on the Vicky horizontal mill so I can have power feed on all 3 axes. As soon as I fix the power feed.....

PDW

[philbur]

For anybody interested you can download the Boley 5LZ sales brochure from here:

http://www.filedropper.com/salesbrochure

It's a 32 mb highres pdf file.

Phil:)

[Anorak Bob]

For anybody interested you can download the Boley 5LZ sales brochure from here:

http://www.filedropper.com/salesbrochure

It's a 32 mb highres pdf file.

Phil:)

Hello Phil,

Welcome to our forum.

The brochure is superb. Thank you.

Regards
Bob.

[Stustoys]

Hi Phil,
Welcome and thanks.

Now I want one lol

Stuart