CNC and the possible abandonment of Luddism.

[Anorak Bob]

Yesterday I called in at the home of Rod M and viewed and witnessed the workings of some of his incredible CNC creations. Ball screws, linear ball slides, stepper motors and an unbelievably modest creator. ( The linear slides may be a way of rescuing my T and C grinder from a watery grave, something Joe suggested way back ).

Rod has made a number of these CNC machines using older machines to make newer versions. He tried to assure me that he has only a rudimentary understanding of electronics. He was not very convincing in his assurances! :U He made his first machine only 7 years ago. Everything is fabricated, not welded for fear of distortion. Adjustment is built into the components to faciltate tweeking.

Just watching for example, the stepper motor abruptly change rotation direction and seeing how the spindle can quickly move from one co-ordinate to another with accuracy has given me an appreciation for this technology that I didn't have, and would not have had if I continued to embrace the protestations of Ned Ludd.

Sure, I've watched numerous YouTube CNC machining clips but they show machines well out of the realm of most back yarders. Rod's machines are approachable and understandable.

Well done Rod.:2tsup:

BT

[RayG]

Congratulations Rod, you have converted Captain Ned Ludd himself, no small feat. :2tsup:

Beautiful work, and very cleverly thought out attention to detail, it reminds me of some of the work that Harty and Jayson are doing down in Horsham.. all of which makes me want to get the HM52 CNC conversion finished..

CNC is becoming much more affordable, and opens up scope for a lot of projects that would in years past be out of reach for the home hobbyist..

Thanks for the pictures BT, and I look forward to the CNC conversion of that Hercus T&C grinder...:)

Regards
Ray

[new_guy90]

Bob All CNC machines are for the most part they are the same. Some of the most talented machinists I have worked with approach every machine the same. The hardest part is getting used to the key pad and dials on the controller thats it! All programing is very much the same from lathes to mills, from Fanuc Heidenhain and Mac 3 its little differences and once you get your head around the basics it doesn't matter the size or type of machine. Any one can use a CNC but having one at home wow that just opens up so meany doors

ill tell you a secret the best CNC machinist are also good manual machinists :wink:

[rodm]

Hi Bob,
Enjoyed our chin wag from Luddite to computer controlled machining. A home brew machine is within the capabilities of any backyard sheddie. Parts out of China have made these a lot more affordable and now complete machines can be imported for about $2k - not all that great but a starting point. Looking forward to seeing what a Luddite hides in their shed.

Hi Ray,
About eight years ago mach2 opened the door for affordable machine control software. I paid around $130 for the software compared to many thousands of dollars plus annual maintenance fees for propietry software.

With that came cheap electronics built in back sheds and the interest has grown to full time businesses supporting the lower end of the market.

I have been watching and very interested in your HM52 conversion with the thought of doing the same myself. I have an X3 converted to CNC but you can't beat mass and a lot more travel in a machine.


new_guy90,
Totally agree you cannot machine anything without knowing at least the basics of machining and materials. I have a manual mill and lathe which I taught myself to use before entering the CNC side of things.

Having a CNC totally changes the way you design and think about jobs. Shapes become part of the design as you are not worried about changing setups, rotary tables, boring heads and usually less jigs and fixtures are required. It all just happens usually with just one cutter.

I will always have manual machines but there is a place for CNC and on the hobbiest side a mug can produce professional results they couldn't otherwise.

[Anorak Bob]

I had said to Rod that his machines reminded me of some nicely fabricated stuff I had seen in Germany.

BT

[wheelinround]

Thats some impressive machine thanks Bob for showing it in very good detail.

[new_guy90]

new_guy90,
Totally agree you cannot machine anything without knowing at least the basics of machining and materials. I have a manual mill and lathe which I taught myself to use before entering the CNC side of things.

Having a CNC totally changes the way you design and think about jobs. Shapes become part of the design as you are not worried about changing setups, rotary tables, boring heads and usually less jigs and fixtures are required. It all just happens usually with just one cutter.

I will always have manual machines but there is a place for CNC and on the hobbiest side a mug can produce professional results they couldn't otherwise.

Rod I was completely against CNC in the home shop. Most people think CNC's are the be all and end all and they are the quickest most easiest machines that can spit out aircraft parts with ease...... These people have no idea! I ran broken CNC mill in my last job so when I said "I run CNC mills" people said "Oh so you have it easy, all the programs are set and all your tools are in the machine" Stunned look "um no... our tool changers are broken on both the machines I run, so I have to change each BT50 tool by hand, some programs have 14 tools per part..... I write my own programs and any old ones I use I edit/change because I dont trust them...."

FYI guys BT 50 tool holder are a good size and bloody heavy!

The guys I used to work with knew less M code and G code than I KNOW some hobbyist teach themselves :o and they were tradesman

Another point CNC's need lots more maintenance! if you dont keep up with your maintenance your wasting your money in the long run

Rant over lol so where do I stand now? If your smart and learn to use CNC properly and not treat it as a magic box where i type some code and aircraft parts come out then yes bring it on because you obviously have what it takes to get the most out of it :wink: ......I also want a Mazak quick turn and VMC :smokeing:

[rodm]

......I also want a Mazak quick turn and VMC :smokeing:

Me too. :)

[Hunch]

Another point CNC's need lots more maintenance! if you dont keep up with your maintenance your wasting your money in the long run

I'd say rather than lots of maintenance, lots of spare electronics!

Laugh when the yanks whinge about spending $1500 with the proprietary control service provider of their choice. Get the friendly Fanuc man here and replace a board and it's 4.5k out the sky rocket, but maybe that's something for the Australian retail thread.

Oh, another gripe, Fanuc manuals are written in something approaching English, good luck on the comprehension though.:~

[Greg Q]

Try busting a cockpit display like I did last year. $78,000.00. Never on sale:-

[Pete F]

Try busting a cockpit display like I did last year. $78,000.00. Never on sale:-

Yeah, $3K for the display, $75,000 for the tag attached to it :wink:

[Pete F]

Rod what do you think the X3 cost you to convert? It's something that's been on my radar for a while. I'm learning ACAD (a frustrating program, especially the Mac version as it's buggy), so after a couple more years I should be ready for the CAM side of things. I think a machine the size of an X3 would be ideal (if I can figure out where I'll put it!!!!).

Pete

[Hunch]

Try busting a cockpit display like I did last year. $78,000.00. Never on sale

Amazed there's not a TSO for Homer pouring coffee over it!:p

I think for these things, they expect a temperature controlled clean room environment to let the 2 cent chipsets they pick up in some Taiwanese bazaar last a year.

In other news, Bohler is closing their Sydney outlet. If that's an indication of usage, we might be going back to hammer and file to make things....save your pennies for the aussie firesale.

[rodm]

Hi Pete,

The X3 was done a number of years ago so I can't remember the cost of converting it. I would estimate $2.5k would see it done today.

I got a kit from here (http://www.cncfusion.com/smallmill1.html)

There is an Aussie maker here (http://www.cnckits.com.au/product_mx3.php) but prices are higher and a bit hit and miss on communication and long lead times for supply.

I mill mostly ally but have done a few jobs in mild steel flat bar and brass and quite happy with the setup..

[rodm]

more ....

I used to use Turbocad and a CAM program to convert to Gcode.

Over the years they have developed CAD/CAM packages which are easy to use and low cost..

Link here (http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/cut2D/c2d_index.htm) which will do simple 2D toolpaths but you wil quickly want more so look at Vcarvepro as an option.

I use Aspire now as I do 3D carvings on my gantry router but for a mill Vcarvepro is as far as you need to go.

To be objective I have to say I used to be a Beta tester for these products so maybe I am influenced by that so look around as there are other packages out there.

[Pete F]

Thanks Rod, much of it is still a bit of a mystery, the electronics I'm fine with as that's my trade, the drafting I'm learning now, but translating between the two I've never had to do.

I think the X3 would be a good size machine for home use, at least what I want to do. However I'll need to look seriously at the cost to buy an X3 and a kit to convert it, versus importing a turnkey CNC package from Sieg (eg KX3).

It's all still a long way off, so plenty of time to think about it :D

Pete

[rodm]

The KX3 is a good option. Being purpose built it has a faster spindle for CNC work and they are put together very well.
I am fairly sure they have the one shot oilers and concertina covers which are a good features too.
There are agents for these machines in Aus but importing might save you a few dollars.

Using a CAD/CAM package you don't need to do any translation. It creates the code automatically in a format for your machine controller - usually Mach3 for this level. They have post processors for just about every machine within reason.
Really all you have to do is create a tool databse in the program and you are ready to go. The tool database details the size and profile of the cutter and parameters such as depth of cut, feed speed, spindle speed.
I learnt G and M coding but never use it now except to satisfy my curiousity on occasions.

[Pete F]

Rod have you priced a KX3 at all? I seem to recall they were about $6K FOB, but after my experience with importing my last lathe I can image all the wharf gouges will add considerably to that.

Yes the KX3 has all the features you mentioned.

Pete

[rodm]

The KX3 is listed at $8,250 inc GST from Minitech in Brisbane
Shame you don't live this side as there is a decent second hand one with rotary and tooling going for under $5k here (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/beldon/tools-diy/cnc-mill/356776103)
Titan Machinery have the Syil X4 for around $6k inc gst which may be an option for you?

[Pete F]

I think that one in PER is actually a reasonable deal Ron. I reckon Bob will buy it for sure, however I'm over in Perth weekly so if he hasn't bought it already I may go check it out. Freight isn't impossible. By the looks of the tooling and where the machine is located it doesn't seem to have had much use. I expect it would be possible to put a 4th axis on the rotary table ... that way I can feel like I've actually done something with regards building some part of it :p

As mentioned, I'm in no particular rush and to be perfectly honest aren't exactly flush with cash right now. By the same token, I do believe in jumping through windows of opportunity when I see them open ... even if sometimes I have to jimmy them open a wee bit :D

I've been a member of CNCZone for the past few years, but really haven't been keeping up to date with things.

Pete

[Anorak Bob]

I think that one in PER is actually a reasonable deal Rod. I reckon Bob will buy it for sure, however I'm over in Perth weekly so if he hasn't bought it already I may go check it out.
Pete

Ha Ha Ha ! And how long ago in this discussion do you boys reckon you left me ? I'm still struggling just typing a reply!

B"Ned"T

[Pete F]

As you see Rod, not only is Bob extremely wealthy, he's modest too.

Bob I've seen your sketches, CNC is simply the next logical step. You know you're going to do it :p Actually I reckon I can imagine Ray and Greg being lured to the dark side too.

Pete

[rodm]

Bob is older than me so I have to show him some respect.
Actually I think if he was any older he would be forced into CNC because Uncle Arthritis, failing eyesight and memory loss ..............what was I saying, oh yeah I think he needs a CNC machine.

Fun aside Bob is a switched on fellah and when he finishes getting filthy with cast iron he just might look at extending his arsenal to CNC.

[harty69]

As you see Rod, not only is Bob extremely wealthy, he's modest too.

Bob I've seen your sketches, CNC is simply the next logical step. You know you're going to do it :p Actually I reckon I can imagine Ray and Greg being lured to the dark side too.

Pete

Pete

Ray is already halfway there he just needs to put the servo motors on the mill and he is done then plug the new robot in and have it load parts there will be no stopping him :2tsup:

cheers
Harty