PDA

View Full Version : Tool choice advice



michael_m
6th March 2012, 09:29 PM
Hi all,

I have recently been given a lathe for my birthday - a secondhand MC900 clone, that goes well, and all the bits work just fine. It came with a Nova G3 chuck, steady rest and a bunch of el-cheapo turning tools too.

I'm all very excited to have it, and because I haven't touched a lathe in 23 years (since I was in high school) I've been having some lessons from the woodworking department at work (I'm a school teacher, so I have been going into the workshop at lunchtimes and after hours for lessons in technique and safety).

One thing I have really noticed is the difference in feel and (for want of a better word) 'seriousness' of the tools between the ones at school and the ones at home. My home tools feel so tinny and inconsequential! So my plan is to replace/add to them one at a time. They're fine for the time being in that they remove wood in a predictable and acceptably safe fashion, but there is no bowl gouge in there, and I can safely say I'll be at this turning lark for a long time to come.

So my question is, are there any brands, styles of tool you would recommend? I am looking at maybe Sorby or Hamlet tools - are these acceptable brands for a beginning, but committed hobby turner? I would be interested in other recommendations, but Hamlet/Sorby is the price range I can afford to buy in. I'm hoping to be able to afford one every second month or so, probably starting with a bowl gouge (bowl turning lessons are on the cards).

Many thanks in advance for your advice,

Cheers, Mike

dr4g0nfly
6th March 2012, 09:54 PM
MC900 & a Nova chuck, a good starting point.

It's the el-cheapo turning tools - are they the very cheap chinese tools. If they are, don't throw them away they'll give you metal to practice sharpening on!

Seriously are they branded but just not what you're using at the school. Henry Taylor, Sorby, are suitable for anyone from beginner to professional. But so are your Aus P&N tools and many other brands, Crown, Hamlet, Easy etc..

As for a Bowl Gouge to start with, it takes more than a bowl gouge to make bowls, so as a starter it will be lonely but get you cutting.

Go back through (or seach) the last couple of months - there has been a couple of threads on Turning Tool starter sets - they should give you all the information you need to make informed choices.

vk4
7th March 2012, 09:55 AM
Mike,

I would throw the EL CHEAPO tools,and start with the basics ,
1 3/4" roughing gouge
2 1/2" bowl gouge
3 1/4" bowl gouge
4 3/8" detail Gouge
5 1/8" parting tool
6 3/4" skew
7 3/4" round nose scraper
8 3/4" sq nose scraper
9 1/4" spindle gouge

These will give you a good basic set of chisels, buy un-handled, and make your own, you will save money, and do not buy all at once or you will break the bank.

I also suggest that you get a bench grinder (8") and mount White Aluminum Oxide wheels 1x80# & 1x 120# for sharpening , another art you will need to learn.

To make this easier there are several sharpening jigs on the market.

Be aware that you have started an interesting and never ending hobby.

Jeff
vk4

michael_m
7th March 2012, 08:40 PM
Yep, they are the no-name chinese proverbials. Fortunately, I already have a grinder and am starting to get the hang of getting the roughing gouge and skews acceptably (for me) sharp. But they are all mostly spindle-turning tools (3/4 roughing gouge, 1/2 and 3/8 spindle gouges, 1/2 and 1" skews, round scraper, diamond parting tool and a strange v-shaped scraper??) so if I want to do any faceplate turning I need to at least start with a bowl gouge.

I will definitely be buying them singly; my loving holder of the purse strings won't let me get more than one every second month or so (if I'm lucky), and my birthday has been and gone for another year (does the easter bunny deliver gouges?).

I hadn't thought of buying unhandled, it's a really good idea. One of my first jobs on the lathe is going to be making new handles for a lot of 2nd hand bench chisels I picked up cheap, so it makes sense as a way to save money. What is it they say about good ideas: after you've heard them you think "why didn't I think of that?.

Many thanks to you both,

cheers, Mike

Sawdust Maker
7th March 2012, 08:52 PM
I'd seriously look to the P&N unhandled

good quality steel and semi local in manufacture
you'll have to hunt around for a supplier but Vermec sells them as does Trand here in Syd

enjoy the new addiction :2tsup:

Pat
7th March 2012, 09:10 PM
I'd seriously look to the P&N unhandled

good quality steel and semi local in manufacture
you'll have to hunt around for a supplier but Vermec sells them as does Trand here in Syd

enjoy the new addiction :2tsup:


Try TrEnd, Nic :U

P&N, Crown, Sorby etc are good, unhandled for the practice and pinus radiata for play wood. If you can get a good finish with P Crapiata, you can get a good finish with any other timber. 90x45 ripped down the middle.

Turn round and practice beads and coves and when you get good at them, Dithers, wedges, Dippers are good projects to practice with and to give to friends and family . . . usually the best source of "Free" timber.

orraloon
8th March 2012, 10:35 AM
Seeing as you can get by at spindle work with the tools you have got then the first tool you need now is a bowl gouge about 1/2 ''. With that and the round nose scraper you should be able to hollow out a bowl.
Dont be too gung ho the first few times and keep to about 6'' diameter. When you have the feel for it then you can try larger bowls.
I would still hold on to the cheep tools even after you get good ones. They can be re ground for those one of a kind jobs.
Regards
John

Paul39
9th March 2012, 04:12 AM
Seeing as you can get by at spindle work with the tools you have got then the first tool you need now is a bowl gouge about 1/2 ''. With that and the round nose scraper you should be able to hollow out a bowl.
Dont be too gung ho the first few times and keep to about 6'' diameter. When you have the feel for it then you can try larger bowls.
I would still hold on to the cheep tools even after you get good ones. They can be re ground for those one of a kind jobs.
Regards
John

Perfect advice.

The 1/2 inch bowl gouge should be 1/2 inch shaft diameter, some call it a 3/8 inch bowl gouge. For the smaller bowls you may grind one of the flat Chinese tools into a half round scraper.

As you have a grinder, you can make lots of tools from inexpensive steel. Carbon steel cuts as well or better than high speed steel or powder metal tools, just not as long.

Get an illustrated tool catalog or peruse the internet and look at the photos of the various turning tools and visualize what can be ground on your existing stock.

A grinding system, bought or made by yourself will make grinding bowl gouges much easier and more consistent. I have the wolverine system which I like. You might find it used.

Amazon.com: Oneway Wolverine Grinding Jig: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Wolverine Vari-Grind Attachment: Home Improvement

One does not NEED a chuck, bowl gouge, or grinding jig to make bowls. These things just make it more convenient.

I made my first bowl on a 7 X 12 Chinese metal lathe, using a faceplate made from a piece of 3/4 inch pipe screwed into a floor flange held by the chuck. My tools were a sharpened screw driver and scraper made from a worn out rusty file.

You can make a bowl using one of your tools ground to a scraper. You could also use one of your spindle gouges rolled up on its side as a bowl gouge.

You do not need a bunch of tools to make bowls, a deceased world famous turner from San Francisco (whose name escapes me) used only a 1/2 inch bowl gouge, a touch up with a scraper and sandpaper.

A perfectly good parting tool can be made from a bread knife. Grind 3/16 inch off the sharp edge, grind the tip 80 degrees back from the top edge, use it with what used to be the sharp side down.

The first photo is of a Bedan type tool I use for hollowing, it is 1/2 inch square from a scrap heap, it had been used as a stake for concrete forms. Freshly sharpened it makes a nice finish scraper.

Second is a scraper made from a 12 inch long high speed steel planer blade, I got 4 for $15.

Third is a scraper / accursed skew made from a discarded lawn mower blade. I use it to knock off the dirt, bark, rocks, etc. from the stumps I like to use for bowls. Then we use the Crown and Thompson bowl gouges.

Fourth is the end of makeshift accursed skew with the finish I get on the tool handle behind.

Welcome to the addiction.

Bill Wyko
9th March 2012, 07:11 AM
If you plan on taking your time and buying top quality tools, I'd definitely go with the Glaser tools. I've got quite an assortment and I've been to the factory. Not only are they the best tools I've ever come across, but the owner Paulo & his wife are just a fantastic people to know. Check out www.glaserhitec.com (http://www.glaserhitec.com). He also is coming out with a tool line called Synergy, they have quick change tool heads and are made with a new proprietary metal of his own making that are truly amazing. Not cheap but definitely not cheaply made. His grinds are excellent and the weighted handles are shaped to be really comfortable in your hand. I'll never use anything else myself.

IMHO the cheap tools I had before now just suck up space. Once I started using th Glaser tools I never pick up anything else. I would feel as though I were cheating myself if I did. I also gave a bunch away to my BIL to see if he might start turning.

kcam
9th March 2012, 08:17 AM
Michael, the new range of Vicmarc turning tools are based on the Glaser design with quality steel and they come with detachable handles.Vicmarc has an ad in the current Aust. Wood Review along with a review by Terry Martin or check out Vicmarc's web site, a worthwhile consideration for any serious turner......just to addd to your confusion:D My personal choice has always been P&N....cheers Kerry

michael_m
9th March 2012, 07:24 PM
If you can get a good finish with P Crapiata, you can get a good finish with any other timber. 90x45 ripped down the middle.

Turn round and practice beads and coves and when you get good at them, Dithers, wedges, Dippers are good projects to practice with and to give to friends and family . . . usually the best source of "Free" timber.

Hi Pat, funnily enough turning pine offcuts to round, smoothing with the skew, then making beads and coves is all I've been doing with the lathe so far. My wife has perfected the "that's very good dear, but it's not coming into the house" look as I show her yet another 'deformed candlestick' as she calls them.

michael_m
9th March 2012, 07:35 PM
Hi John and Paul, a 3/8 gouge was the first one I was considering. So I take it that it would be a 3/8 if I got, say, a Sorby or a Hamlet or other Sheffield company, but a 1/2 if it was a P&N or a Vicmarc or an American gouge? Is that right? And would it be better for me to get a traditional or fingernail grind if I have the option? Or given that I don't know anything anyway, does it not matter?

Paul, I like the idea of making my own tools (if you look in the bandsaw section, you can see that I can take this to extremes), and while I am learning the pleasures of grinding freehand at the moment, I am contemplating making this (http://aroundthewoods.com/sharpening03.html) jig to help me.

michael_m
9th March 2012, 07:41 PM
Hi Dr4g0nfly, Sawdust Maker, Kerry and Pat, P&N are definitely in my radar for tools to buy. I think I will go down to Pop's Shed in the holidays to have a look at some, as it's only about 20 minutes from me by Eastlink.

Kerry and Bill, the Glaser and Vicmarc look fantastic, but are getting out of my budget range - at the moment anyway.

Thank you everyone who has given me advice so far. It's great to have a place where I can come to ask for help and get such helpful, high quality responses.

RETIRED
9th March 2012, 10:32 PM
Personally I would go Hamlet or Sorby.

The P&N because of it's flute shape can be hard to get the shape right.

No matter what tool you buy, they will have to be sharpened.

Paul39
10th March 2012, 05:40 AM
Hi Pat, funnily enough turning pine offcuts to round, smoothing with the skew, then making beads and coves is all I've been doing with the lathe so far. My wife has perfected the "that's very good dear, but it's not coming into the house" look as I show her yet another 'deformed candlestick' as she calls them.

Just keep doing that. Finish sand and use a Danish Oil or Tung oil finish rubbed on with a cloth. The last part will show you where you didn't sand out the tool marks, and didn't sand out the rougher grits.

Put a date on the bottom and stick it on a shelf in the shed. In 6 months compare it with what you are currently doing.


Hi John and Paul, a 3/8 gouge was the first one I was considering. So I take it that it would be a 3/8 if I got, say, a Sorby or a Hamlet or other Sheffield company, but a 1/2 if it was a P&N or a Vicmarc or an American gouge? Is that right? And would it be better for me to get a traditional or fingernail grind if I have the option? Or given that I don't know anything anyway, does it not matter?

My first "good" tool was a Crown 1/2 inch bowl gouge, it is 5/8 in in diameter. I think Sorby works the same way. If you are buying from a shop, have the seller measure the shaft. I have been using the actual 5/8 inch even on 4 and 5 inch bowls for a couple of years.

Only recently did I get an actual 1/2 inch. It was a Bodger brand, made in China, high speed steel, good handle, nicely finished, seems to cut as well as the Crown or Thompson. I got it and a big, heavy 1 1/2 inch round end scraper for $35, used.

I favor a slightly swept back grind for an only bowl gouge. For this you need a grinding jig like a Varigrind. Using the wooden jig that you propose and just rotating the gouge would give you a couple of sharp corners that tend to dig in on the side of the bowl if you are not careful.

If you have one of the very swept back grinds, that gives you a less rounded tip when you are cutting the bottom of a bowl, and can be very aggressive cutting the side.

As my fee for setting up a lathe for a new turner, I was given a Thompson 1/2 inch (actual 5/8) bowl gouge with a swept back grind. Rolled over so it is slicing wood off the outside of the bowl, it really removes the wood and makes a slick finish. The first time I tried it on the inside it ripped out a big spiral chunk. I have since learned to use it inside. It is much more aggressive than the lesser swept back Crown. Now that I have the luxury of two the same size, I have two grinds.

As you will be sharpening your gouges, you can put any degree of sweep back on it that you like. I would not pay a premium for an Ellsworth, or any other famous grind when on the same catalog page the same steel is found with an ordinary grind for much less.

Ask around among turners to see if someone has a good bowl gouge for sale. Actual size 3/8, 1/2, or 5/8 inch would all work. Some folks upgrade to powder metal or other more expensive tools and do not use the earlier generation. My rule of thumb for used, good condition tools is 1/2 of new price.

I stuck my nose in my local hardware store today and they are selling off complete sets of Sorby tools for 1/2 price. They were lightly used in the class room by students.


Paul, I like the idea of making my own tools (if you look in the bandsaw section, you can see that I can take this to extremes), and while I am learning the pleasures of grinding freehand at the moment, I am contemplating making this (http://aroundthewoods.com/sharpening03.html) jig to help me. That should work fine as long as the arm is stiff enough to not flex. I have two 120 grit wheels on my grinder with a flat plate on one side and the V jig on the other so that I can give my flat tools a quick swipe without disturbing the bowl gouge set up.

You could determine the height and angle to sharpen your scrapers and make a block to put in front of the wheel.

I find I can sharpen spindle gouges free hand but need a jig for my scrapers and especially bowl gouges.

Do a search in the forum on "bowl gouge grinds", "bowl gouges", there have been some raging discussions that might be informative.

If you get 10 turners talking about grinds and grinders there will be 15 BEST AND ONLY ways to do it right.

orraloon
10th March 2012, 03:00 PM
I found that Around the Woods site very handy when I started turning and I still have a look at it now and then. It shows that a lot can be done without breaking the bank. His jigs will do the job ok
I have got by freehand sharpening as I find it saves time. I have the turners jigs for the seppach wet grinder but it takes too long. I do use it now and then if a gouge profile is geting too out of shape but for everyday turning it is freehand on a dry white wheel.
Old cheap tools are good to practice on.
Regards
John

chuck1
17th March 2012, 01:09 PM
i did keep my cheapo set of turning chisels the skew chisel is now a parting tool and some of the others are scrapers for special jobs! most of my kit is P&N Henry Taylor and a sorby bowl gouge all second hand; i was very lucky when i bought some lathes! and the local hardware shop near me has some P&N tools that they didnt know about!