Selecting a small Mill / Mill/Drill [Archive]

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Wombat200

13th March 2012, 05:37 PM

Hi All,

I don't post much here, mostly just lurk. I'm looking at purchasing a small mill / mill-drill & would like other's opinions on the subject in general, and specific brands/machines in particular.

A bit about me - I'm a patternmaker by trade, havn't worked in the trade for ~16 years, but I appreciate a good machine - I've operated machining centres with up to 4m beds, and learnt on a Taiwanese copy bridgeport - I wish I could get a machine like that now.....

Anyways.

I'm chasing a machine with ~500mm travel on the bed's X axis - this allows me to work on my Puegeot cyl heads & smaller engines. After this, everything else isn't a big deal. The RF30 style of machine is probably what I'll end up with - but I'd prefer a dovetailed column for obvious reasons, if one fits into my price range / size. A bigger machine would be great, but moving it around will be an issue - the RF30 size seems fairly portable. I'll mostly be facing & drilling alloy & iron castings, and some timber patternwork, with a bit of mild steel milling thrown in.

Price range is about $1500 - which I know will get me a new chinese machine, but I'd probably prefer to hang out for a good 2nd hand Taiwanese machine.

So - Thoughts? If anyone knows a good 2nd hand dealer in melbourne, I'd love to hear about it..... I've found one in a local dealer for ~$1000 that looks good - used mostly for slotting aluminium, so no heavy work.... But I'm not in a rush......

Cheers,

Rob.

Blu_Rock

13th March 2012, 08:24 PM

Hi Rob

H&F will be having a sale (http://images.machineryhouse.com.au/events/March-3-Day-Sale-Flyer_2012.pdf) from 22-24 March 2012. Their HM46 dovetail mill will be going for $1,749 (normally $1,969) with the folowing specs (X) 475mm (Y) 195mm (Z) 450mm (see pg 22). A bit above your price range and a bit less x travel than you were looking for but maybe worth consideration.

I'm also in the market for a larger mill (I've currently got a RF20 and a X2) and am looking at replacing the RF20 with a new or used dovetail mill with a bit more X travel and of course the convenience of a dovetail.

pipeclay

13th March 2012, 08:51 PM

In regards to the dovetail,in other threads I have read that people arent able to take very big cuts with them,they seem to wobble and move,might be something to consider.
Based on what I have read it would appear that the round column mills are a more ridgid set and capable of being worked harder than the dovetail type.
Am not sure if opperator error or experience plays any part in it though.
If by some chance it does it dosent seem to be admitted.

Wombat200

13th March 2012, 09:50 PM

Thanks Guys. I too have noted comments about the round-column machines potentially being more rigid, which is interesting.... I guess it comes down to the column.... My old (1979) McMillan drill press uses a cast iron column, the casting is some 10-12mm thick, as opposed to the modern steel tube columns..... It's very, very rigid....

The 500mm+ travel is pretty important to me - it means being able to do the job in one set-up. I agree though, the HM46 would be a nice machine......

Blu-Rock - what do you use the X2 for...... I have to admit, they look like toys to me, but I'm interested to hear about them.... Make a good pattern mill, I reckon.....

Rob.

rodm

13th March 2012, 10:02 PM

The round column can be a pain if your quill travel is shorter than your tooling requirment. eg hard to reposition it if you go from a small drill to a large one and you have to lift the head.

Blu_Rock

13th March 2012, 10:56 PM

Hi Rob, the rigidity of round vs square columns is always an interesting discussion, there appear to be two schools of thought on this one. I supppose that the major variables are the wall thickness of the columns and their external dimesions. Here are two interesting threads here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/buying-small-milling-machine-141080/) and another here (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=37678).

The X2 was the first mill I bought, new from an eBay seller. Being a machining virgin, it was a cheap way to get into the hobby. I've used it to make many smaller tools (as you do) and am almost finished making a small, single cylinder 4-stoke engine as well as plenty of other odds and sods. Yes, it's a bit of a toy and lacks both power and rigidity. Nevertheless, I was a good way to see if I wanted to get even deeper into my machine tool fetish.

The X2's weakness is that stalls if you load it up too much and you can only take light cuts when drilling or milling steel. However, it's OK for aluminium, plastics and other softer materials. I plan to CNC it in the future. Like you mentioned, I too reckon it would make a nice little pattern mill. There is heaps of info on the web about CNCing them and this guy (http://www.hossmachine.info/) takes X2 mods to a whole new level.

I bought the RF20 as part of a deceased estate lot that included a 12"x36" lathe (the lathe was what I really wanted in the lot) and heaps of tools for both the lathe and the mill, as well as a lot of other tooling and materials. The deal was too good to pass up.

The RF20 (it's an older one made in Taiwan) is certainly rigid and I can take some pretty substantial cuts in steel and it has heaps of grunt. Like Rod mentions, the main issue with the round column is maintaining alignment if you have to move the head up or down when changing tools on a setup. There are several strategies to overcome this potential difficulty and there are many threads on this issue. I've read about modifications that can be made to these machines to more or less lock the head from rotating while still maintaining the capacity to raise and lower it. One method involves fixing the rack to the column and another uses an additional outboard column... all good food for thought. Using a laser fixed to the head and shining it on a datum line and other datum methods also are reported to work.

I'm in no hurry to upgrade and would really like to get my hands on a used, mid-sized Bridgeport-style mill with a knee, something about 2/3rd the size of a BP would be ideal.

Good luck with your purchase when you decide to take the plunge and be sure to post some of your work.

P.S. gotta love the Pug... I used to have a 404 :)

Wombat200

14th March 2012, 11:33 AM

P.S. gotta love the Pug... I used to have a 404 :)

Cheers for the feedback all - esp Blu Rock about the RF20 - Obviously an RF30 would be simarlarly useful, just bigger..... I'll investigate the methods of aligning the head - That may well solve the issue for me, not that it would be a big deal for me anyways.... Unlike some people, for whom the machining is the hobby in itself - (and it's a noble hobby!) - for me it's merely a way to complete the work I wish to do..... It's 'Just' another tool for me..... So, rather than scale down the work to the size machine I have, I need to get a machine the size of the work......

Blu - I have 2 404's - one for parts - and my current project is fitting a 2lt injected engine out of a 504 TI, plus 5-speed gearbox & aircon, to the good one..... Great cars.....

Big Shed

14th March 2012, 11:56 AM

Plus one for Pugs:2tsup::2tsup:

First car was 1955 Peugeot 203, leather lay back seats, great car.

Graduated to a 404 also a fantastic car for its' time.

Have also owned a few Renaults, a Dauphine Gordini and an R8 Gordini among them.

Company cars from there on in.

Oh yes, subject is mills.

Have a DM45 dovetail mill (similar to HM46) with 2 hp motor, does everything I ask of it, which I guess isn't that much really:D:rolleyes:

Wombat200

14th March 2012, 02:09 PM

Cheers, Big Shed!

Just went out to Hare & Forbes, and also Asset Plant & Machinery. Bother decent looking machines, appear to be reasoable quality. The HafCo has 540mm travel & the Assest SM32 has 500, apart from that they're line-ball....... price-wise there's nothing in it. The saleman at Asset impressed me more, though, I have to say...... Not that that's important ;)

While at H&F, the HM46 was sitting next to the HM32... the base & column bolt pattern is the SAME!!!! So, a HM46 column & head would fit a HM32 base/table...... When I raised this with the salesman, he said it MAY be possible as a special order if both machines were from the same manufacturer (they appear to be), but didn't sound keen..... I didn't press him, as I'm still looking around, but when ready to go, I might go & lean on him to investigate...

chambezio

14th March 2012, 02:47 PM

Just an observation!!!
You have to give a big thumbs up :2tsup: to the members of this Forum!
Here we have Wombat asking for detailed answer to a question and with in no time at all others have come in with just the details he needs to make an informed decision.
The Forum is such a gem with its knowledge base and experience
To coin a phrase from John Laws I think we all need a big "YEH" for the day.
Good luck Wombat with your search for a new mill. I will be looking on from the side lines

Wombat200

14th March 2012, 03:03 PM

Hmmmm, perusing the catalogues I brought home......

I think I found my ideal machine!!!

SM-MD45. Mill Drill. Steelmaster Geared Head Drive Mill Drill, Dovetail Guides, Digital Depth. - Asset Plant & Machinery (http://www.assetplant.com/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/shop/Products/11-0314)

A bit out of my price range & a smaller motor that the other two, but much more capability & I could always upgrade the motor if I got annoyed by it.......

Ahhh, decisions, decisions.....

PDW

14th March 2012, 03:20 PM

Big Shed

14th March 2012, 03:25 PM

I bought my SM920V lathe from Asset it was a pleasure to do business with them. About the only thing I could say against their DM45 mill is that it comes with an MT4 spindle, much harder to get tooling for than, say, an R8 spindle.

I bought my DM45 from Standaco in Nunawading, not only did I get the bargain of the year, it was again a pleasure to do business with them and have since bought other accessories from them. Good family business that actuall operates on the basis that customer servce is important not like some that are more like used car dealers. My DM45 came with an R8 spindle and a CMG 2hp single phase motor. I have since acquired a 2hp 3phase motor for it and a VFD so that I will have variable speed. It is however still awaiting installation, too many other things on my plate!:(

Wombat200

14th March 2012, 03:37 PM

It's a 4 Morse taper spindle. What tooling are you planning on putting in there?

I hate MT spindles for milling machines.

PDW

Alternating between a collet holder & a chuck, plus probably a face cutter in an arbour. Academic, really, as all machines at this end of the market (or at least the ones I'm looking at) seem to use MT Spindles - mostly 3's

I can always sleeve MT4 dow to MT2 or MT3..... no biggie, really..... I have a fair bit of MT2 stuff already....

Big Shed

14th March 2012, 04:03 PM

Academic, really, as all machines at this end of the market (or at least the ones I'm looking at) seem to use MT Spindles - mostly 3's

............well perhaps not quite all:no:

Wombat200

14th March 2012, 04:36 PM

............well perhaps not quite all:no:

Fred,

your DM45 is the smallest machine I've heard of or come accross that doesn't seem to use a MT spindle.... H&F & Asset's machines all use MT3 or MT4 until you start spending $3-4000+

Now, I'll be keeping my eye open for a DM45 2nd hand, and will probably go over to Standaco (they have nothing on their website), but really, everything seems to be MT in the size I'm looking at..... even the older 2nd hand RF30's I've looked at are MT3.....

Big Shed

14th March 2012, 05:29 PM

Fred,

your DM45 is the smallest machine I've heard of or come accross that doesn't seem to use a MT spindle.... H&F & Asset's machines all use MT3 or MT4 until you start spending $3-4000+

Now, I'll be keeping my eye open for a DM45 2nd hand, and will probably go over to Standaco (they have nothing on their website), but really, everything seems to be MT in the size I'm looking at..... even the older 2nd hand RF30's I've looked at are MT3.....

When I bought mine, a pure impulse buy on Epay after a member here pointed it out, they had both an MT4 and an R8 in stock. The R8 was the one I bid on, the MT4 they had modified with a 3phase motor and inverter to run on 240V single phase. Have a talk to them and see what they have or can get, interesting place to go to, lots of Bridgeports clones when I have been there.
Very happy with the R8 spindle and the tooling available for it from CDCO and CTC etc.
I came from an X2 with an MT3 spindle and I know what I would rather have, R8 every time, much more positive.

Blu_Rock

14th March 2012, 06:08 PM

I agree with Big Shed about prefering an R8 over a MT for a mill. My X2 has an R3 and the RF20 has a R8.

The SM-MD45 looks a lot like Titan's TM45FG (http://titanmachinery.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=221&Itemid=438) (R8) and not much like ozmestore's mill (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dovetail-Geared-Head-Milling-Drilling-Machine-New-/270916515161?pt=AU_Hardware&hash=item3f13e1f559) (MT3) of that size.

PDW

14th March 2012, 06:53 PM

Fred,

your DM45 is the smallest machine I've heard of or come accross that doesn't seem to use a MT spindle.... H&F & Asset's machines all use MT3 or MT4 until you start spending $3-4000+

Now, I'll be keeping my eye open for a DM45 2nd hand, and will probably go over to Standaco (they have nothing on their website), but really, everything seems to be MT in the size I'm looking at..... even the older 2nd hand RF30's I've looked at are MT3.....

These machines are also made with R8 taper spindles. That would be my preference over MT 3 or 4.

Having said that, MT4 is pretty beefy so not too bad other than tool changing, which is why I asked. If most of your work is going to be using a collet chuck, an ER32 chuck on a MT4 arbor will work fine. If you're going to swap out the collet chuck for a face mill pretty regularly, you'll be cursing the MT spindle. Voice of experience.

Lots more mill tooling for R8 than MT as well.

PDW

rusty steel

14th March 2012, 07:46 PM

Blu_Rock

14th March 2012, 07:47 PM

Here are a few more suppliers of DM45s down your way. I know nothing about either company... CMEC (http://cmec.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=187:dm40-a-dm45&catid=62:milling-machines&Itemid=97) and Redfox (http://www.redfoxmachinery.com.au/milling_machine.php)

Stustoys

14th March 2012, 08:12 PM

Wombat200

14th March 2012, 09:37 PM

An ER32 is exactly what I intend to use mostly, plus a drill chuck..... I'll be facing from time to time, but honestly, this thing won't be getting used on a weekly basis.....

All of those machines are worth looking at, and have travels dead on 500 - although I take the point about checking ACTUAL travel. BUT; The one at Asset alledgedly has 565, which is a nice buffer..... My Pug heads are pretty much 500 on the knocker, although I doubt I'll face those myself.....

I dropped in on RedFox the other day.... the 'Boss was out' and the bloke who wandered in from the linked-up business next door clearly had little idea of what the gear was & no idea of prices... struck my very much as a fly-by-night importer, with little stock, just dumped in the middle of a small, cheap Factory, and comments about various machines like "Dunno if the boss is gonna get more of them", etc....

PDW

15th March 2012, 09:26 AM

My mill, ZAY7045FG/2 has a MT4 spindle and I have had no problems whatsoever.
I have been able to buy any tooling I have needed, although I believe that R8 tooling is more readily available secondhand.
Russell

Yes, fine, but have you had extensive experience with R8 and ISO40 taper machines so you can make an informed comparison? I've got MT2, MT3, R8 and ISO40 plus an oddball horizontal mill taper.

Morse taper is a PITA if you change tools regularly. It's useable, sure, but a PITA. I even made one once back before I knew better. Every time I use it I wish I'd made the spindle R8 instead.

Provided your drill chuck isn't too massive, a good trick is to put it on a 20mm stub arbor and shove it straight into an ER32 collet. Much quicker (and less headroom needed) than swapping the ER32 chuck out for the drill chuck. I've got a few small keyless chucks set up like this.

PDW

PDW

15th March 2012, 09:29 AM

Here is another place to look at.
Not sure I'd trust the NT40 taper though(and no idea on price, though they do have smaller mills)
MACHTECH MD46 (http://www.appliedmachinery.com.au/machinery/95527/machtech-mill-drill-md46)
Might be an idea to use a tape measure if you are really worried about travel. Some companies tend to round up, some round down. Remember your X axis needs a cutter diameter more travel that your work piece.

Stuart

If it really is a 40 taper and they haven't compromised things to fit it, that would be my first choice by far. Price being a consideration of course.

Then again an Arno mill - a real one - with VH sold for $1250 BIN on Ebay a couple days ago. I'd have had that in an instant over any of these drill-mills.

PDW

Wombat200

15th March 2012, 02:09 PM

Yes, fine, but have you had extensive experience with R8 and ISO40 taper machines so you can make an informed comparison? I've got MT2, MT3, R8 and ISO40 plus an oddball horizontal mill taper.

Morse taper is a PITA if you change tools regularly. It's useable, sure, but a PITA. I even made one once back before I knew better. Every time I use it I wish I'd made the spindle R8 instead.

To be fair, mate, most guys here would be hobbyists, for whom the choice of tooling was dictated by whatever machine came up cheap/available, etc. And they're not in a production scenario where time=$$$. Tool change time matters nought when you're not being paid for productive time, really..... It might be a PITA, but if the alternative is a new machine, then a hobbyist is going to just suck it up....

Provided your drill chuck isn't too massive, a good trick is to put it on a 20mm stub arbor and shove it straight into an ER32 collet. Much quicker (and less headroom needed) than swapping the ER32 chuck out for the drill chuck. I've got a few small keyless chucks set up like this.

PDW

As a patternmaker, this is pretty much what we did with everything - very rare to be milling steel at all, let alone heavy cuts, so most things went straight into a collet, even fly cutters & small face mills.....

PDW

15th March 2012, 04:37 PM

To be fair, mate, most guys here would be hobbyists, for whom the choice of tooling was dictated by whatever machine came up cheap/available, etc.

How do you think *I* ended up with so many variants?? Kept trading up every time a better machine came along after I'd come to dislike the limits of what I had. My point is, if you're going to buy new, you have the opportunity to avoid some of this so why not take it? In the small tapers, R8 is a lot better for a mill than MT3 or 4, though MT4 is probably stiffer.

PDW

rusty steel

15th March 2012, 08:54 PM

I have used R8 and MT4 machines and I can't see where the R8 is better.
All of my MT4 tools (except the drill chuck) are held in place with a drawbar as with R8. To remove the drill chuck, I drop a piece of 1/2" rod down the spindle and tap it with my copper hammer to remove it. The biggest PITA that I have experienced was trying to remove the tools on a Bridgeport clone with R8 taper at my workplace where other work colleagues had overtightened the drawbar . I am careful not to overtighten the drawbar with my MT4 tools or I could have problems removing them. Morse tapers are self holding and require very little tension from the drawbar.
Russell

Ueee

15th March 2012, 08:58 PM

The biggest PITA that I have experienced was trying to remove the tools on a Bridgeport clone with R8 taper at my workplace where other work colleagues had overtightened the drawbar . I am careful not to overtighten the drawbar with my MT4 tools or I could have problems removing them. Morse tapers are self holding and require very little tension from the drawbar.
Russell

My HM50 has NT30, and at first i didn't "overtighten" the drawbar, but a had a face mill come loose on me once so i don't risk it any more. NT30 tooling is also about twice the price of MT3, i'm not sure on R8 but i know NT40 is even more pricey than NT30.

Ewan

Wombat200

15th March 2012, 09:11 PM

My point is, if you're going to buy new, you have the opportunity to avoid some of this so why not take it?

$$$ that's why.

If you've read all the thread, then you'd know that my budget is around $1500. The $2200 for that DM45 is going to be a real stretch, and I'll have to go without ANY machine whilst saving the extra $$$, if I do decide to buy it. So ultimately, the price will dictate it to me.

Getting a machine that has the capability to fit my work, but remain small enough to fit in my workshop & remain moveable, is a priority also, otherwise I'd just wait for a decent Bridgeport clone to turn up. The spindle that I end up with is a LONG way down my list of priorities, at the end of the day.....

PDW

15th March 2012, 10:24 PM

I have used R8 and MT4 machines and I can't see where the R8 is better.

Tooling availability & price. If you make everything yourself then MT4 is probably a more rigid tool holding taper than R8. If you buy tooling, I can buy a R8 shank going to a 22mm dia straight shank with drive dogs to take a face mill for cheap, ditto for 25mm and 27mm tooling. Means I can swap face mills between machines easily. I've never seen these tool holders for MT4 (doesn't mean they don't exist of course). I must say that if I were to swing a multi-toothed TCT face mill much over 50mm diameter I'd rather an MT4 spindle than R8 as you're pushing the work holding ability of the taper if you're loading the teeth as you should so they don't rub.

I'm not very enthusiastic about R8, BTW, just I think it's better than MT for most purposes. I'd rather an ISO 30 or 40 spindle & tooling any day. Fast tool changes, positive drive not dependent on friction and repeatability when swapping tooling multiple times over, something you'll never get with MT or R8 tooling.

We all get what we can within our money/size/weight/power constraints.

PDW

Blu_Rock

15th March 2012, 10:58 PM

Provided your drill chuck isn't too massive, a good trick is to put it on a 20mm stub arbor and shove it straight into an ER32 collet ... I've got a few small keyless chucks set up like this.

Great tip PDW