Bi-Fold Doors

[Billspin]

I am thinking of fitting bi-fold doors to open up a room to an adjacent deck. Does any one have plans/instructions on building the doors and as the doors will open on to a roofed deck would meranti be an option in place of cedar?

[craigb]

I have no plans, but a door is a door .

With French or bifold, afaik the most important thing is the "overlap" (for want of the technical term) on the edges so that you make sure you keep the weather out.

FWIW, what have you got against pre made doors from Stegbar or whoever?

Meranti can be used externally if you keep the treatment up to it. WRC is better.

[seriph1]

I wouldnt use Meranti. Are you tyalking about glazed items and would they be in the style of the modern cafe style doors that are gaining acceptance lately?

[Billspin]

Thanks, I am thinking of glazed doors, with top and bottom tracks, I was looking fwd to the challenge of making them myself as well as hopefully making a bit of a saving. Would I need mortice and tenon joints or would a biscuit jointer be good enough? I haven't seen any doors described as "cafe style doors' only pictures in house renovaton mags. I also need to source the hardware either in Newcastle or Sydney any advice appreciated.------Billspin

[journeyman Mick]

Bill,
bifold doors are nice to look at but they can be a pain. Reasons:
Extremely difficult to fit insect screens.
Difficult to fit locks and bolts that are effective but unobtrusive.
I've yet to see a rail and roller system that will work that easily that people (and especially the woman of the house) don't have trouble operating them.
There will always be gaps under, over and at the jamb ends of the doors.
Another thing to bear in mind if you're DIY'ing them, how good are you at making a door opening that's plumb and level? It's much more critical to get tho opening spot on, especially levelling the head. But if your floor isn't level you'll have to square everything else off it, even if it means having an opening that's perfectly square (90deg) but not plumb or level. I spent a bit of time fixing a load of bifolds fitted to a new school a few years ago. These were fitted with expensive commercial grade furniture but hinges and flush bolts were still getting broken in use during the first 6 months of the building's use.

Mick

[Billspin]

Thanks Mick, your comments noted and well received, I think I will take a good hard look at some doors in use before I make the decision to proceed.---Billspin

[seriph1]

One waay I enjoyed success and retained the practical aspects of creating a large opening was to have four french doors (fully glazed with glazing bars) in the following arrangement:

two inner ones opened during their normal course of operation, though the right-hand one was the one mainly used for traffic. The two "outer doors" though also actually hinged, were fixed using large brass slide latches. Only when we wanted to open the entire area up did we open them all. Things like fittings and hardware have to be thought through carefully so as not to foul on each other when theyre all open, but it worked well and gave us the effect we were looking for. BTW the outer two doors probably got opened 3 or 4 times within 3 months of doing it - we had that house for a further 8 years without doing it again.

:D

Hope this was clear enough - let me know

[journeyman Mick]

Steve,
if I understand correctly you hinged the inner doors off the outer doors, outer doors usually fixed in place with flush bolts? This would tend to put a lot of strain on the hinges of the outer doors when you open the lot up, but like you say, it doesn't happen that often. I guess if you have some form of "landing ramp" or similar way of supporting the doors when they're opened than the hinges will only be under strain as the doors are being operated. What (if anything) did you do about screens? I'm currently mulling over what to do with our door onto the back verandah, it's currently a 2M wide aluminium slider (ugly bronze colour :( ). I'd like to replace it one day with some timber doors but not sure whether to go hinged or slide them into a false cavity wall that I could build. Don't want to do without screen doors (we get snakes, bats, goannas etc etc, which I love having around outside :rolleyes: ) I was also thinking of having some timber louvre doors on seperate tracks for sun control. Anyway, I've got plenty of time to think of solutions as I've got quite a few other projects ahead of this one in the queue. :rolleyes: .

Mick

[markharrison]

Bill,

I would highly recommend a look at the hardware that Hafele offers for this type of installation. I have not built doors with their stuff but the catalogue looks very interesting and you can see it now online at http://www.hafele.com.au/isapi/online/tchsfdh/tchsfdh.asp

Regards,

Mark

[Optimark]

The missus comes from Germany in the same area that Häfele have some of their factories. During one Christmas when we were over there I saw a show in a shoping centre devoted to DIY reno's. Among the stands was one from Häfele with their hanging systems for Bi-fold doors among others.

We changed our mind about our 1.2m wide internal doors and proceeded to use Bi-fold doors hung using the Häfele system. We found it so strong and reasonably rigid that when the carpet was replaced we left the bottom runner and tracks of for a trial. Six years later the bottom stuff is still off and the doors get a bit of usage.

Their catalogue, that we saw, was comprhensive to say the least. Last year whilst in Germany I managed to see a newer cataloge, even though it was in German the pictures and dimensions are the same, I was full of envy of what is available so easily in Europe, although these days most of what we desire can be brought in, at a cost.

Mick.

[Glen Bridger]

Hi Bill,

Before even thinking about building your own doors, have you priced the glass? A few years ago I purchased two Cedar door frames very cheap. The glass was $300 for each door. It was cheaper to purchase ready made exterior Humes doors. Something else to consider if you do build them, timber doors are actually laminated boards with a veneer over the top. I guess this is to make them more stable.

Glen.

[ChrisH]

the price of glass varies enormously.
I have made my own double glazed windows for my house which was a big undertaking to say the least.
Due to doing it wrong, I broke the first double glazed unit I went to install. I cracked one of the panes of glass, I carefully removed the broken pane, leaving the good pane and the aluminium spacer and seal. I was going to buy one pane of glass and silicone it in place to repair the double glazed unit.
I priced one pane of glass from a local glass supplier, it was about 50% dearer than the complete double glazed unit which consists of two panes of glass, spacer, sealant and the labour to manufacture it. Naturally I gave up on the repair and ordered the complete unit.
You might even want to consider double glazing for the doors, as a lot of heat is gained/lost through glass doors.
I bought my double glazing from Moen Glass in Bayswater (Melbourne), they deliver around the country. They were incredibly low priced, the units are great and service extremely helpful.

Chris.

[seriph1]

Hi folks

Apologies for not responding sooner Mick but I spent the last couple of days celebrating a birthday (mine). Yesterday - just to go totally OT - I jumped out of a perfectly good aeroplane at 14000 feet. I am still on a high from it, but have to say SWMBO made a HUGE judgement call springing THAT one on me :D:D:D:D:D:D

What I did was as you suggest - hinged the inner doors off the outers. Doors swung outwards and folded back onto the outers which worked beautifully. The strain was enormous so I cheated by siliconing the entire glass when the doors were on the flat - this made each a single, bonded unit. Flywires, though never fitted could have been done on the inside as sliders or swingers. To further alleviate the stress on the outer doors I made up some small chamfered blocks upon which the outers sat firmly on. This meant the outers needed the sightest nudge to get to open, but there was so much leverage this was easy. Doors were secured with large bolts top and bottom though these werent great at staying up/down when the main doors were used, so I added a pin to each. BTW the main opening doors were 50mm narrower than their mates and there was a 70mm blank panel (made from stile material) between the jamb and the outer doors to allow for deadbolt depth.

[Billspin]

thanks to all for the valuable advice.

I will now get down to a serious look at how I will tackle the project. I wiil keep in touch.---------Bill

[philly]

Hi Bill....
Firstly I would (and have) use WRC as it is very stable and not as susceptible to movement. It is also very light which makes a difference when choosing your guide system.
This is where the fun starts. Hafele I think is only really for internal wardrobe type doors. For external heavy duty stuff you need to go to Centor (www.centor.com.au) or Henderson (cant remember url). I went with centor as the tech specs on their site is very helpful. Unfortunately their customer service is *****! I spent $600 on hardware which is about the same as I spent on timber (inc. frame and sill). Which is very disconcerting when you look at a pile of timber and compare it with a shoebox full of hinges etc!
Someone mentioned $300 for glass. I spent about $400 on glass for 4 full length leaves (thats what we bi-folders call doors!). You need 6mm laminated glass. Someone else mentioned Stegbar. I reckon I still came in at under half Stegbar prices (as a guide they quote $1200 per leaf) and have you seen their stuff? Its all lengths of finger jointed (the zig-zag type)timber whose grain doesnt match match. And that was in their display centre!
Someone mentioned weather proofing. With the modern systems you dont really need to rebate the doors as they use a "weatherseal" which is a rubbery strip which conveniently fits into a saw-kerf sized groove on the edges of the doors. Also you can choose hinges which dont have to be morticed into the door edge as they are covered by the seal.
Hope this helps. Im on my second lot now. Have a look at the centor site under "eclipse e2+" and you will learn a lot. Also feel free to msg me if you have any questions. Realistically you could save a lot of money buy having a pair of standard french doors with "lights" either side, or two sets of doors with a vertical piece between. Then you can spend about $50 on hinges! If you want to open the whole space up however it does look fantastic but you really have to go with one of the established systems.
Regards

Phil

[seriph1]

yup - that centor stuff is killer! Thanks for the heads-up Phil!

just a thought - I reckon you should be able to buy glass far more cheaply through the trading post or similar.

:D

[sprig]

knowing this post now 3 years old ... just interested to check in with last two posters as to how they found performance of their centor eclipse e2+ bi-fold and sliding flyscreen. We've just stuck our nexk in the noose for a 5m wide lot, so hope the news is good...(?)

[pawnhead]

It looks like a good system. I was going to buy it for my bifolds, but I ended up making my own set up and saving a packet, but I recommended it in this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=43764), and pantotango had no problems with it.