DELTA mode wiring

[morrisman]

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RAY..... question for you or the erudite sparkies on this forum :D

I've been measuring with my multimeter , the GE motor from the Hendey lathe

As far as I have worked out , this is the way it is wired up .

So in order to connect for 220V Delta, I connect leads A and C together , with B forming the opposite terminal .

MIKE

[RayG]

Hi Mike,

No, that's not it... I'm not sure where you got that idea from... actually it makes me a bit uneasy, (makes me a bit hesitant to give any advice),
In fact I'd strongly recommend that you should get an electrician in to help out. It's not the sort of thing that will give you a second chance...


http://www.backsaw.net/pics/Misc/drawing2.jpg


The purple wires are the ones I've added..... but again... go get yourself an electrician... please!

Regards
Ray

EDIT: Sorry if that came across a bit strong, but I don't want to see you electrocute yourself...

[morrisman]

OK thanks

Don't worry

I wont kill myself ......... :2tsup:

I know this stuff is highly dangerous , thats why I asked somebody who has the knowledge before doing anything .. :rolleyes:

MIKE

[Graziano]

What does the motor say on the data plate?, do you have a pic of the plate as it would go a long way towards working out what sort of motor it is.

[Keith_W]

Hi morrisman,
I have attached a couple of pdf's, one on Motor Terminal Markings that show the arrangement of windings in squirrel-cage motors and a pdf on different methods of Motor Start Circuits.
I hope these pdf's will give you an idea on the winding arrangements and star/delta connections so you are better informened when looking at Motor Windings.

Regards,
Keith.

[morrisman]

Hmm

I came across this as I was researching

The old Hendey motor is a dual voltage 220/440 V DELTA mode motor with 9 wires coming out

This diagram explains where the connections go for high/low Voltage

So what Ray marked on my diagram isnt correct ????

Or am I wrong again .:oo:..MIKE

[Graziano]

Does your plate say it's delta 220V?, you can also have a dual voltage nine wire motor connected in star mode as well, a picture of your motor's data plate would help in sorting out what you have. With a dual voltage motor, Star or Delta they will both run off a 240V inverter when set to 220V.

[Stustoys]

Hi Mike,
It will be interesting to see what Ray has to say. But are you sure that diagram isnt wiring for high and low speed rather than 240V/415V?

Stuart

[morrisman]

Does your plate say it's delta 220V?, you can also have a dual voltage nine wire motor connected in star mode as well, a picture of your motor's data plate would help in sorting out what you have. With a dual voltage motor, Star or Delta they will both run off a 240V inverter when set to 220V.

Hi

It's definately wired in DELTA mode ... I always thought this motor is in OK condition as the winding resistance readings indicate that .

The people at the motor place it town didnt have a clue .... thay said its burnt out , typical rubbish you get from a business these days.

I wired it up as per Ray's directions but it didn't work. Now I see I should have it wired as per that diagram i attached .

Anyway , I have a new motor on the way, so this is a academic discussion :)....MIKE

[Graziano]

Hi Mike,
It will be interesting to see what Ray has to say. But are you sure that diagram isnt wiring for high and low speed rather than 240V/415V?

Stuart

Because the chart is labelled with a voltage column and not a speed column?:rolleyes:. At any rate it's fruitless to speculate without more info on the motor specification.

[Stustoys]

:doh:lol
I was just looking at the "high low" and thought it was a strange way to word it.

[morrisman]

hi Graz

This pic may help.

Volts 220 / 440

Amps 9.15 / 4.58

[Graziano]

Stu: yeah I think i've pulled a few worse ones than that on this forum, I have a tendency not to read all the postings on a topic before verbally shooting from the hip.

Morrisman: Yeah it's a bit hard to tell from the label plate other than the fact that it's a dual voltage motor 440/220V. If it was a 9 wire star connected type then you'd find three wires would have been connected according to the multimeter all with the same resistance and then three sets of two wires all with half the resistance of the three wire ones.........this doesn't agree with your first drawing you made.

Your first post drawing electrically resembles that chart and diagram in post No6 you just have the triangle corners in the wrong place. If you make the mid points 'B' in your first diagram of the windings as the corners and then number them 1,2,3 etc. you'll have a perfect match...........so yeah that post No6 diagram would work for your motor. If you wired it the suggested way Ray has in post No2 then the current flowing in one half of the windings would cancel the magnetic field in the second winding resulting in a lot of buzzing but no rotation and then overcurrent trip which is what did happen?.

A quick rewire test would be to leave it connected as Ray suggested but this time hook the three phases of the inverter to the B points on your diagram, not the A+C connections (still leave the A connected to it's nearest C) you should get rotation this time but you'll still be feeding 240 into a 440 winding so it's only good for a temporary test.

[RayG]

Hi

I wired it up as per Ray's directions but it didn't work. Now I see I should have it wired as per that diagram i attached .



Hi Mike,

The way I drew was for the high voltage 440V and if you followed that and the motor was ok it would have run fine, just not full power however, the diagram shows how to wire it for 220.

Just because a motor tests ok with a multimeter doesn't mean it's good, you need a megger to test properly.

The place you took it to, are they a motor rewinder?

Regards
Ray

[morrisman]

Stu: yeah I think i've pulled a few worse ones than that on this forum, I have a tendency not to read all the postings on a topic before verbally shooting from the hip.

Morrisman: Yeah it's a bit hard to tell from the label plate other than the fact that it's a dual voltage motor 440/220V. If it was a 9 wire star connected type then you'd find three wires would have been connected according to the multimeter all with the same resistance and then three sets of two wires all with half the resistance of the three wire ones.........this doesn't agree with your first drawing you made.

Your first post drawing electrically resembles that chart and diagram in post No6 you just have the triangle corners in the wrong place. If you make the mid points 'B' in your first diagram of the windings as the corners and then number them 1,2,3 etc. you'll have a perfect match...........so yeah that post No6 diagram would work for your motor. If you wired it the suggested way Ray has in post No2 then the current flowing in one half of the windings would cancel the magnetic field in the second winding resulting in a lot of buzzing but no rotation and then overcurrent trip which is what did happen?.

A quick rewire test would be to leave it connected as Ray suggested but this time hook the three phases of the inverter to the B points on your diagram, not the A+C connections (still leave the A connected to it's nearest C) you should get rotation this time but you'll still be feeding 240 into a 440 winding so it's only good for a temporary test.

That is exactly what happened Graz - a buzzing sound , but no rotation . Thanks for clearing that up :2tsup:

Mike

[RayG]

Hi Mike,

Yes, I see what's happened.... Graziano has sussed it nicely.

Regards
Ray

[morrisman]

Hi Mike,

Yes, I see what's happened.... Graziano has sussed it nicely.

Regards
Ray

It was my fault Ray. As Graz pointed out, my circuit drawing wasn't correct in the first place :doh:. I have a great ability to confuse people :~ Mike

[RayG]

Hi Mike,

Well, it's not really your fault, taking it to the motor rewinder place was the right thing to do. I would have expected the motor repair place to have done their job a bit better.

Maybe you have a case for a complaint, if not a refund.. (depends on what they have to say)

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

Hi Mike,

The way I drew was for the high voltage 440V and if you followed that and the motor was ok it would have run fine, just not full power however, the diagram shows how to wire it for 220.

Just because a motor tests ok with a multimeter doesn't mean it's good, you need a megger to test properly.

The place you took it to, are they a motor rewinder?

Regards
Ray


and then sometimes when the megger and ohm meters say it should be ok, it may still have a internal wiring/rotor defect which can result in the motor not running correctly and or even to cause to the smoke to be released ...unintentionally of course

[Combustor]

Did no-one pick the fact that this is/was a 60 Hz motor? They will not normally have a useful life expectancy on our 50Hz power, as they do not have the extra metal mass in the laminations to operate effectively at 50 Hz without overheating. Rotor to pole clearances are also different, thus it may have already suffered heat damage and been beyond salvage. The only 60 Hz motor I ran at 50 Hz was so hot in 15 mins you could fry eggs on it! Good to know you now have the right motor, regards, Combustor.

[Stustoys]

Hi Combustor,
Without commenting on the rest of your post. Why would the rotor to pole clearance be different? Wouldnt that be something that was kept "as small as possible"(for a given price)
Stuart

[Combustor]

My electrical theory is not extensive, but it is my understanding that AC devices,(motors, transformers etc). can be made with much less pole mass as frequency rises. Believe that much early aviation electrics were 400 Hz, as the components were a whole lot smaller and lighter. Le Tourneau's electric earthmovers were similar. Also told that higher frequency needs greater air gap rotor clearances in motors, alternators etc. Some areas of our state had 40 Hz systems prior to the interconnected grid, and when supply authorities converted customer equipment, most motors had metal machined off the rotor, and a pulley change to correct the output speed. Sure someone with greater knowledge can explain it better for those who are curious. Regards, Combustor.

[RayG]

Did no-one pick the fact that this is/was a 60 Hz motor? .

Does it make any difference that It's running off a vfd?

Generally you might get overheating problems if you run so slow that you don't get any fan cooling. Otherwise it doesn't matter too much.

Regards
Ray

[eskimo]

Generally you might get overheating problems if you run so slow that you don't get any fan cooling. Otherwise it doesn't matter too much.



I'm with you Ray

going real slow may be a problem but 60 V 50 hz??at high speed..no problem...it would work fine.

Lots of USA equipment comes into Australia rated at 60hz...all one has to do is de-rate it to allow for the slower speeds at 50hz

[morrisman]

I just did a test with the old motor wired as per the above diagram e.g., for low voltage .

Interesting . The motor turns over fine to begin with , then, after about 2 seconds , after the VFD has ramped up to around 5 amps output , then the VFD shuts off and it displays PL ... this means a short circuit is happening .

Maybe the old windings are stuffed and are leaking , after reaching 5 amps the insulation breaks down , it cannot handle the current above 5 amps.

This is all a academic exercise . But I do have the thing connected OK now, as at least it is rotating now .

Mike

[Graziano]

Good to see you got it to spin, usually if there's a serious short an error will pop up immediately not after it's run for a while. I wonder if there some other problem causing that error, I used to get a fault on my inverter as the braking time was set to an unrealistically short time, once it was changed it ran fine. The windings could have just picked up a bit of moisture from sitting so long unused and require a low temp (50 deg C) baking in the oven for a few hours. A bit of moisture can do funny things.

[morrisman]

Good to see you got it to spin, usually if there's a serious short an error will pop up immediately not after it's run for a while. I wonder if there some other problem causing that error, I used to get a fault on my inverter as the braking time was set to an unrealistically short time, once it was changed it ran fine. The windings could have just picked up a bit of moisture from sitting so long unused and require a low temp (50 deg C) baking in the oven for a few hours. A bit of moisture can do funny things.

Yes Graz , it seems odd that it runs OK , then stops . I am going to try the VFD settings . It stops very suddenly , it doesn't ramp down at all , it just goes "STOP" very quickly with no slowing down like a normal motor does , like a brake is applied .

I should have dried out the stator while it was apart, I was going to warm it up , but I forgot :? Anyway its progressing ..MIKE

[Stustoys]

Hi Mike,
I've had the odd motor that needed a little drying out. I just have a fan heater blow on them for awhile(though they were open frame motors).
Does it stop at the same point each time?

Stuart

[morrisman]

Hi Mike,
I've had the odd motor that needed a little drying out. I just have a fan heater blow on them for awhile(though they were open frame motors).
Does it stop at the same point each time?

Stuart

Hi Stuart

Ok I've done some more testing .

I've now got the motor running without stopping . But, I had to reduce the VFD output Freq. down to 25 hz to do this . At 25 hz , the motor ran continiously , but the VFD was putting out too many amps , about 8 . As the motor warmed up, I noticed something odd, the amps slowly came down ! The amps crept downwards to 5 amps . The motor was now warm to touch .

I then ran the motor for a few minutes at 25 hz . And, then tried going up to 30 hz .... yes it still ran, but after going up to 35hz ..no good , the VFD shut down again ..too much current . If the current goes over about 12 amps the VFD shuts off .

I think the old windings are so leaky , they are drawing twice the current what they should be . As the motor cools down after being stopped , after then starting it up again , it goes back to drawing higher amps . As it warms up, while it is running , the amps go down ....

Mike

[Stustoys]

Doesnt sound good, but what would I know. How many Hp is it again? I cant read the plate

Stuart

[Graziano]

What's the PWM frequency set to at the moment?.

[morrisman]

What's the PWM frequency set to at the moment?.

The pulse width modulation ?

I've got the settings at what the manual recommends . I have tried changing a few parameters , V/F etc , but that doesn't do much to change how the motor behaves .

I think the motor is just too old , it's had its day . It is now time to move on into the 21st century .:cool: