Robert Sorby Pro-Edge Sharpening System

[nz_carver]

Hey all Sean one last weekend just thinking
Anyone out the have one or tryed on what do you think?

[hughie]

It is essentially a linisher with a carborundum narrow belt. strikes me its a tad [ around $600 ]expensive when its basically a linisher.

Having used linishers quite alot over many years, it will work just fine and produce a very good edge.

[smiife]

i was thinking about one,:?when you look at the price compared with a tormek
it is about half the cost,but maybe no one has seen or tried one as there seems to be not a lot of interest,i would also like to know a bit more about this product and any one who has used one:2tsup:
cheers smife:2tsup:

[RETIRED]

Hey all Sean one last weekend just thinking
Anyone out the have one or tryed on what do you think?There was one in use at Horsham.

Peter and Chris have been using one for a couple of years. They seem to like it.

I have only played with one for a short while so can offer no comment.

[nz_carver]

There was one in use at Horsham.

Peter and Chris have been using one for a couple of years. They seem to like it.

I have only played with one for a short while so can offer no comment.

Yeah I know that's we're I seen it:U

[Sturdee]

Len at the Woodsmith, Sorby importer and retailer, has one and uses it in his workshop and likes it.

I have asked him why he didn't import it and was told that it would cost him about $20K to get the necessary electricity authorities approvals to sell them here, which made them unprofitable.

So if you want one you would have to get it direct from Sorby in the UK.

Peter.

[nz_carver]

Well I know Jim has them :wink:
Just seen them and noticed they don't spark as much as a stranded grinder

[robo hippy]

I looked at it and thought no. It just doesn't look heavy duty enough for me. I did concrete construction for 30 plus years, and am on the heavy duty size as well. I prefer things to be over built so I can use and abuse them, and they still keep on working. I do like the platform on it as it can be set to a number of different angles with repeatability and precision.

Now, this is more to my taste. It is Stuart Batty's grinder, and similar to what a lot of knife makers use.

SB OmniGrinder | Stuart Batty Woodturning (http://woodturning.org/tools/omni-grinder/)

robo hippy

[hughie]

Now, this is more to my taste. It is Stuart Batty's grinder, and similar to what a lot of knife makers use.



An impressive piece of gear, a far cry from the regular grinder or linisher, pricey?

[robo hippy]

They were supposed to be out last August, but are still not available. Comparable grinders like this are in the $3000 and up range, and he was saying then they would be around $1500 to $1800. I will talk to him again at the AAW Symposium coming up in June. I really checked it out very closely, and don't think I could have designed it any better, and I tinker with every tool I get. Very solid, and industrial strength. One end has about a 10 inch wheel, the other end had a flat platten, and the top is flat as well, and the thing can rotate 90 degrees for a 90 degree vertical abrasive surface as well.

robo hippy

[rsser]

I got one at the WW show yesterday; first impressions after lengthening the bevel to 25 degrees on a 10mm square section beading/parting tool:

The thing is solidly made and well designed.

Angle changes of the platform are quick and positive.

Leaving the side cover off and with the table at that setting it's possible to change belts in about 10 seconds (greater angles would mean removal of the platform and take longer).

Neither of the two belt changes I did needed the belt tracking to be adjusted but that's minor work anyway.

Reshaping the bevel meant a deal of metal had to come off and with a #60 Zirconium belt that went quicker than with a coarse Norton blue wheel on a dry grinder. That wheel is my 'gold standard' and would've needed dressing afterwards (which is not a trivial task and which generates dust you don't want to suck up).

The tool didn't get more than hot and nowhere near bluing during the process.

The #60 belt didn't clog up but started to cut slower. It deposited a nice pile of steel 'n stuff on the bench.

There was some dubbing over of the tip at #60. I assume this was due to the belt butt join being slightly higher than the rest of the belt. Or it may have been my technique. It was possible to rectify that moving up to #120 and #240.

...

The attraction of the system for me is its capacity to grind from #60 to #3000 with some belt changes. And it can hone with the accessory rubber wheel. I rehab old planes and bench chisels as well as reshaping and touching up turning tools. There is a range of abrasive types. There is little toxic dust, no dressing/truing needed and no water slopping around. It may even do the heavy lifting with lapping the backs of blades (to be tested).

Jim Carroll showed me a turning tool that'd had the #3000 Trizact belt treatment and it was a polished finish. Very tasty.

Questions:

How long do the belts last? No idea. The more exotic abrasive types from Sorby are not cheap. But there is an Aussie abrasive specialist who will make belts to order (inc. Zirconium and Trizact).

With time will the extra thickness at the join wear down? Expect so.

After one tool's worth, what's the implications of the scoring in the platen at the pressure point?

Upshot:

For someone who wants one system to efficiently 'do it all', this may be it. Knife jigs are available but exxy; I may try freehanding when a #3000 belt becomes available.

[NeilS]

Ern, following with interest.

[rsser]

Here's a bit more Neil:

Have tried to measure the join bump but only have verniers. Marginally thicker than the rest. The join is made by what looks like fibreglass reinforced tape. Maybe a lighter touch is needed; was using pressure similar to that on a grind wheel.

The #60 belt used was Zirconium and I picked up a #60 Ceramic belt to try out. Said to be better for HD removal. Also got a #600 Trizact which has a funky pattern. Waiting for #1200 and #3000 (equiv.) Trizacts.

Jigs, accessory or with the Deluxe model:

A neat V block that slides in a groove on the platform. Allows a plain grind with a gouge. The side can be used to guide parting tools, bench chisels etc.

A skew guide with a fixed angle. Will prob. mean reshaping my skew angles and the big skew will give the ceramic belt a good workout.

Fingernail gouge jig. Uses the clamp and knuckle joint seen on other machines. Since the mount bar is fixed however you get only one flavour of wing grind. An accessory mount provides two longer grind options.

[rsser]

Some more observations:

Sorby have fitted metric screws and bolts. Yay! cp some earlier items from them that were imperial and you had to have a few imperial allen keys set aside.

The side cover is worth leaving off to speed up belt changes but that sprays black grindings liberally around. It's attached with two T-head screws that are fiddly to get started.

The 2nd hole on the long grind jig is a near perfect match with the go-to bowl gouge. The 3rd hole allows a good match with the Ellsworth Signature gouge (at least the the extent that my sharpening has maintained the original profile. Tip is still close to 60 degrees). It was possible to get these matches without changing the gouge jig knuckle angle (always a source of variation with 'that other machine' that needs watering :wink:). They were achieved by changing the projection from the clamp, the collar position on the shaft and of course the shaft mounting hole.

The platform is easily removed by unscrewing one bolt which has a captive spanner.

The motor is 1/6 HP IIRC and doesn't have to strain. It runs fairly quietly, and slower than a linisher AFAIK.

Over 4 different belts now the tracking has not needed adjustment.

So far in design terms the 2nd down side for me is the flat grind. I like to touch up tool edges in the course of a turning session with a diamond paddle hone and that's quick with a hollow-ground bevel. You're just taking a bit off the toe and heel. It'll take longer and a bit more dexterity with the flat bevel.

[rsser]

There's a bunch of Berg paring chisels whose backs I'd started to take the pitting from and to flatten on a good extra coarse ceramic whetstone. And given up on.

1" on the Zirc. #60 - went well, grinding to about 50 mm from the edge.
7/8" same belt - much slower. Pits weren't coming out. A few deep scratches and the rest was polished. Curious. Belt was clogging up a bit. Moved to AlOx #120; little improvement.

Got out the big gun, the #60 Ceramic belt. 5th belt change - this one needed the tracking adjusted.

Oh wow. It went gangbusters.

So well I was able to flatten up to the makers mark with those and two smaller ones down to 1/2".

And the backs are flat. Better result than I've had using very flat powered discs with quality abrasives.

Only downside was one chisel corner chipped out. Has to have been the steel.

All done freehand with a light touch. Edge presented in trailing mode.

Took a few seconds for the blades to get too hot to touch. Took them away for maybe half a minute and could start again. No sign of bluing. A few minutes work on each.

Having used many hand and one other horse-powered method, this beats them by a country mile. At least on these widths. Have yet to try the smaller paring chisels. They may take a deal more care.

[nz_carver]

Thank so much rsses this has helped a lot
bang for your $ how's it go over a tormek?

I like them both but the tormek with the woodturners kit it allmost 2x the price of the sorby pro edge

[rsser]

Bang for buck is a bit hard to calculate.

Yes, the initial cost of machine and jigs can be totted up.

Then there's the versatility and speed of the systems.

The appeal of the Pro-Edge is that I can go way coarser than a wetgrinder (c. #220 min.) and I have lots of old bench chisels to rehab. Reshaping a bevel at #60 is much quicker than at #220. And I can lap the backs; a wetgrinder wheel might give you 3 lappings on each side of the wheel and then you face the problem of deglazing and perhaps truing it.

The big unknown is long the belts last. Sorby Ceramics are c. $10; Trizacts c. $20 Well the ceramic belt has done four chisel lappings and there's life in it yet. So the worst number is $2.50 each. You know how long it would've taken to do those on a coarse ceramic whetstone or an extra coarse diamond plate?! :no: And diamond plates are exxy and I've worn several out. A ceramic stone is more cost effective but takes a bit of maintenance.

A Tormek wetgrinder wheel should last a hobby woodworker a good length of time but when that time runs out the bill is c. $350.

[robo hippy]

Well, I don't hone anything, except the few times I actually use a skew. I do have a Tormek, and use it for my kitchen knives. I do everything else on the CBN grinding wheels, and I expect them to outlast me, which given my dad's age of 90, leaves me almost 30 more years. No problems with the harder carbon steel like my bench chisels, when I need to fix the edges. I have heard that there are CBN abrasive belts, and diamond ones as well. Don't know where to find them though.

robo hippy

[rsser]

Yep; Sorby do a diamond belt. Haven't asked about the cost!

Good for TCT cutters, router bits etc, and glass, stone & ceramics.

If memory serves Lee Valley may also do a 1" diamond belt.

[NeilS]

I have heard that there are CBN abrasive belts, and diamond ones as well. Don't know where to find them though.




Yep; Sorby do a diamond belt. Haven't asked about the cost!



Finding CBN and diamond belts might be easier than paying for them, going by this price list (http://www.asktools.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d182_01.html) (and those are £s not $s).

You would have to be convinced that the diamond was going to last 12 times longer than the Trizact.

My concern isn't that the diamond wouldn't outlast the Trizact by a factor of ten, but that neither the belt itself nor the bonding of the diamond to the belt would last as long as those expensive diamonds. You would have to be convinced that the belt and bonding were going to hold together to get your full value out of the diamonds.

Seeing a shredded diamond belt on the floor could make a grown man cry...:C

[Jim Carroll]

thanks for the feedback Ern have forwarded the info to Robert Sorby for their answers about the joint on the belt.
The diamond belt comes in around the $280 mark yep not something you just buy.
Also not that good on HSS tools, as you noted the 3000 trizac leaves a very smick edge and not that much work.

[Paul39]

Seeing a shredded diamond belt on the floor could make a grown man cry...:C

Just looking at the price gave me heart palpitations.

[rsser]

Wow.

But to be fair the belt is 50mm by c. 760mm.

That's a lot of 'girl's best friend' :rolleyes:

Neil, it's an itch I'm not going to scratch at this time but a shredded belt might make for a funky necklace in some quarters.

Anyway, next test will be to clean up the back of an M2 plane blade of mic-d's with surface grinding that was rough. Will try a grit or two on the ProEdge and then transfer it for finer grades to WorkSharp discs mounted on a arbour on the lathe.

Meantime I'm hanging out for the finer Trizact belts to come from the UK.

Just as an aside re efficiency, on a pink #80 wheel I had to do a minor reshaping job on a 3/8 spindle gouge, and then touched up a couple of scrapers. The wheel then needed cleaning. Cough, splutter.

Yeah, a CBN wheel looks the goods but I'm trying to keep the sharpening kit cheap and simple as I'm taking cash-strapped students through the sharpening process. Almost all can be done with a bench grinder, AlOx wheels and a $40 platform with a bit of practice. For fingernail grinds, add a Tru-grind jig.

For those who want more versatility, the Pro-Edge looks to me, so far, to be a better option than a wetgrinder. And I've had two of those.

[rsser]

Episode X:

Took a 3/8" close to straight-across grind bowl gouge to the #120 AlOx belt.

This is my std hacking gouge and I normally freehand it on the platform in front of a coarse blue wheel. Swing it a bit side to side to pull back the wings.

In this case the V block was used. Yielded a 'lady-finger' grind.

Same deal as with the beading/parting tool: dubbing over of the tip, and the clunking of the join was audible and felt. Pulled back til clunking disappeared. Metal removal was slower. Dubbing over was almost ground out. Belt inspection showed a build up of grindings on the join but not elsewhere.

Then to the fresh #240 AlOx. Distinct clunking. Pulled back til it went. Again, ground metal appeared on the belt joint but not elsewhere.

Got a good edge in my book. #120 produced a burr felt by finger. Not the #240. #120 also produced a more polished surface (to the eye); #240 tended to a haze.

Then to the fresh #600 (equiv.) Trizact. For a fine abrasive it was ripping the metal off. Dubbing over happened again. A join matter on a fresh belt I'm sure now. Pulled back; light touch; took it out. Near-polished surface.

As a mostly freehand sharpener I'm happy with these trade-offs. In a turning session I want to quickly refresh the edge from time to time and the V block and step-fixed solid platform setting can do this. I like the V block as it's half way between freehand and a clamped jig. With a clamped tool you have to check and adjust the protrusion where you expect metal removal may have changed the angle.

After all that I pulled the belt off to check the scored platen and the rollers. A few sticky deposits were present and easily removed with 0000 steel wool. Expect Mr Sorby's liberal protective oil coating on the steel plates on the machine was the cause. Wiped it off; will redo it with G15.

In this session the grind angle was set to 45 degrees. It was still possible to change belts without removing the platform. Refitting the side cover has proved easier when started with the top screw.

The more time I spend with this system the more I like it.

It's all a matter of what trade-offs you can live with of course.

[rsser]

Episode XI:

Tried something more challenging. Thompson detail gouge, 7mm flute width. Also 10% Vanadium so a curl ball for the abrasives. 30 degree bevel so quite a long overhang from the platform.

I like this with a bit of fingernail grind and doing that just on the platform is beyond my skills so it's been a jig job. And even then it's easy to cock it up as there's an exponential reduction in metal as you rotate the shaft up the 'wings'.

Tried it on the V block so a bit of reshaping was needed. Started at AlOx 120 but this was so slow that I was getting facets standing around whistling :-. Dropped to Zirc. 60 to rough out the grind, with better results. Then 120 and 240.

Overall this was tricky and somewhat time-consuming work. Of course the grind changed with square across presentation, but I finished with one pass at 120 and later at 240 by rotating the shaft and pushing the bevel up on the abrasive to pull the wings back a bit.

The extent of overhang also reveals a downside of this semi-freehand approach. There's a bit of slop (necessarily) in the V block rail and it's easy to get some movement of the gouge shaft in the block. So care is needed.

The abrasives as they are coped fine with the V10 steel.

[Colin62]

I'm finding this thread interesting, and have enjoyed reading it. Please don't stop posting just because no-one is replying :)

[Paul39]

I'm finding this thread interesting, and have enjoyed reading it. Please don't stop posting just because no-one is replying :)


Yes, keep posting. Thanks for doing the research.

[robo hippy]

The comment about the expensive abrasives sticking to the belts they are on would be a big concern. Heat build up is minimal, but the constant bending of going over the top and bottom rollers would take it's toll. That is the advantage of the electroplated CBN wheels. No flex. While expensive, they are a far better buy than any other grinding wheel available. Like some one once said, "Buy the expensive tool, you cry once. Buy the cheap tool, you cry every time you use it."

robo hippy

[rsser]

RH, if you read the post you would've seen I was referring to a few sticky deposits on the platen and rollers, not on the belts.

And I'm not interested in debating the merits of this v. a new-era wheel. I'm sure the CBN is good. I run a diamond wheel myself and have had very satisfactory results with it. But neither of those are sharpening systems.

Paul and Colin: thanks. It's become a kind of WIP.

I should've added re the detail gouge that one of the things that makes the work tricky is that the bevel at the tip is very long. If an edge refresh is as tricky as yesterday's work then I'll use the gouge jig.

[nz_carver]

That's so much for all your work Ern
As the pro edge is some what new to the market it's good to have someone doing a test drive of it
and telling us what they think

Being some what tight with my cash it's good to know what I'm thinking of getting is money well spent

[rsser]

Glad to have been of some use nz_carver.

Your original question has been the main point I've tried to keep to with some random comments on AlOx wheels.

Elsewhere I've posted my views on the Tormek (and Scheppach). Both of these are systems too of course. Lots of turners like them and I'd happily have a Tormek again just for rehabbing high carbon steel tools. In fact I was on the verge of shelling out again but got interested in the ProEdge possiblities. With the Tormek the initial cost is high and I'm running out of bench space anyway. When I had one I didn't warm to it for turning tools: exxy, fiddly, messy, slow in reprofiling.

The Tormek is both a jigging and sharpening setup. Tormek jigs are high quality and I've been using the gouge and skew jigs on their bench grinder mount in front of the diamond wheel. Sometimes also the square edge jig. I would say given that they're clamping jigs they require less dexterity than the ProEdge V-block and skew jigs. But also need resetting when you're grinding a deal of metal off the tool tip.

[NeilS]

RH, if you read the post you would've seen I was referring to a few sticky deposits on the platen and rollers, not on the belts.



Perhaps RH was referring to my comments on diamond belts, their cost and my concern that the bonding may not hold the diamond long enough to get your value from them (when grinding steel). I have no experience of them, but agree with RH that all of that flexing around a tight radius twice every rev may weaken the bond and let the diamond go well before it has stopped cutting.

Point taken that your interest is in sharpening systems, not abrasives, Ern.

But for me, having now used both diamond and CBN abrasives for sharpening my turning tools, I'm unlikely to adopt a 'sharpening system' that doesn't have those premium abrasives as economical options. In an earlier post in this thread you said "It's all a matter of what trade-offs you can live with of course."

I've always been interested in the idea of belt grinders for sharpening, having used them for rehabbing knives, but I'm not sure I'm prepared to trade-off the benefits of the above premium abrasives for sharpening turning tool, well not without a lot of convincing.

However, I'm following your thread with interest, Ern.

Brent Beach, who is worth listening to on many matters to do with sharpening, provide arguments in support of belt grinders for tool sharpening on his Belt Grinder (http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/beltsander.html#why) page.

The one aspect of belt grinding that hasn't had a lot of discussion are the pros and cons of flat bevels for woodturning. With the increasing use of belt grinders for sharpening we might get more on that. I have started a separate thread on Flat Grind Versus Hollow Grind (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/flat-grind-versus-hollow-grind-160958/#post1568097) so as not to hijack this thread.

[rsser]

Apologies to RH if mine was the misreading.

Yes, Brent's material is interesting and I'd read that part recently when staring at the 1" Ryobi belt sander wondering whether it was worth the effort of improving the platform and rigging up a jig mount. Decided not to as a 2" width is a big advantage over 1".

Mike Darlow has also been an advocate of belt sharpening and one his books pictures an attachment available for a bench grinder (Multi-tool or somesuch IIRC).

In terms of the finish on the bevel and therefore the edge, it will be interesting to see how a tool performs with the Trizact 3000 treatment.

Meantime the M2 plane blade has arrived for cleaning up of the back. Darnit, there wasn't one Stanley blade in the shed that hadn't had a makeover that could be used in a test. Must be an OCD.

Look forward to the thread on flat v hollow grinds. (Gotta love Brent's maths on wheels and bevel angle variation!).

[rsser]

Episode XII:

Took the detail gouge to #600 (equiv.) Trizact in the V-block.

This is still ripping the metal off and tip dubbing over re-occurred. Pulled back, took more time, got most of it out. Will cut with it and see. Polished bevel. Better than the flute finish (more honing needed there).

Episode XIII

mic-d's plane blade. 50mm wide. One of Helmut's specials. Quality M2 steel. By eyeball I couldn't see what Michael's concern was. But with a 20x loupe, oh yeah. The surface grinding was irregular. Mostly good but some deep scratches were left.

To sidestep a moment: our flatware colleagues have long known that to get a clean cut and keep a long-lasting edge, the finer the bevel and back treatment the better it is. And now there's also plenty of evidence for turning tools, not least from Neil, that the same applies to us.

With the back of a plane blade, you have to flatten and then work to a polished finish. And then do the bevel to the same standard. It's pointless refining one intersecting face and ignoring the other.

To the point (cough): I wasn't going to trash Michael's fine blade with experimenting. As it happens, I have one of Helmut's specials of the same width. From the 'factory' I found this took nice cuts but I'm no plane expert. This was the trial blade for back flattening and polishing.

1. Ceramic #60: wowsers! Talk about rip off metal! Ideal for flattening.
2. AlOx #120: slower going. #60 scratches came out easily enough.
3. Michael's blade on the same belt: same deal. But polishing was happening and it shouldn't at this grit. IMO the belt is now worn. Wish I had a Ceramic #120.
4. AlOx #240: did better but it's a near new belt.
5. Trizact #600: polishing happening. A few scratches left 5mm beyond the edge. Will take it to #1000 on the WorkSharp disc.

Upshot 1: Michael's blade has stayed flat cross-wise and was ground clean and polished to 5mm up from the edge. Belts are wearing out. With a full kit of belts I would've started with full guns blazing running up through the grits.

2: Now that I know what the Pro-Edge is capable of I'd order next time a full kit of the ceramic and Trizact belts.

The perennial worry with lapping is convexity due to differential exposure to abrasive effect. Across the blade on these two there was a good result. Bravo Mr Sorby! Along the blade there's a bit of drop off at the tip end. Wouldn't be a prob. with a std Stanley setup; could be with replacement blades & chipbreakers.

[robo hippy]

No apology necessary. I have noticed bumps with every sanding belt I have used, but have never used a belt sharpening system. For sharpening, I would consider a grinder and wheels to be more for turning tools, and maybe lawn mower blades, but not for fine sharpening like plane soles and blades, or kitchen knives. This would, for me mean having one set up for my turning tools, and one for other fine edge tools. Kind of like chucks, you may start out with one, but generally end up with several, so you don't have to change out jaws every time you want to do some thing different.

I did talk to Stuart a week or so ago about his Omni Grinder, and he is looking to get on order maybe 1,000 of them so he can afford to buy all the tools necessary to make them in house rather than farm it out. I do want one, and consider it a huge step up from the Sorby Pro-Edge. He expects it to sell better in the metal industry world than just for woodturners.

robo hippy

[rsser]

Episode XIII:

Had a play working the edge of a Mundial 8" French cook's knife on the Trizact #600 (equiv.). Inked the bevels; a couple of freehand passes each side took off a deal of metal as you'd expect as this grit. I started with the edge leading and this produced some abrasive dust so then changed to edge trailing. The edge is adequate for my partner's uses. The 1200 and 3000 grits when they arrive should produce a better than adequate result.

[rsser]

I'm keen to continue to use my ProEdge but there's been a delay in belt shipments from the UK.

Sorby offer a good range of belts for various applications. Big plus.

So at this stage of ownership I see three downsides:

1. Platen scoring with #60 belt.
2. Belt join leading to edge dubbing over. Controllable but sub-optimal.
3. Belt availability.

Re 3. it's early days in the introduction of the unit to the Aus market.

Jim from Carrolls WoodCraft, the supplier of the machine, is on the ball and doing the best he can to ensure a supply of belts and to consult with Sorby on 1. and 2.

And that's why I prefer to buy locally.

[smiife]

i have been watching this thread very carefully and i think...............
santa is bring me one this year :fingerscrossed:

i must have been a good boy this year:U:U:U:U
can't wait for xmas
cheers smiife:2tsup:

[nz_carver]

Hope Santa has been working out coz he's getting one for me to:U

[rsser]

Hope Santa's back is up to it! The Deluxe version weighs 18kg packed. Says something about how solid it is.

I should say re knife sharpening freehand that on this unit it can't be done the way it's shown in Lee's book on sharpening. Ie. loose belt, edge leading. The arm that holds the rollers is in the way. Looking at the pic in that book it appears that the abrasive would prob. connect with the whole blade as well and that would take out any maker's mark or gunmetal finish and that doesn't appeal. I may be wrong though.

Carroll's should have new belts in soon now and I'm looking forward to getting down to more tin tacks.

It's tempting to have a go at DIY belts. A std size is 50 x 915 mm. The joining tape on the Sorby's is blue glass-reinforced. Best estimate is that it's 0.1 - 0.2 mm thick. Can't find a source on the web. White/silver is out there and one sample measured 0.1 mm.

[rsser]

Jim's sent out new belts so I can wind the tongue back into the mouth :wink:

Have done some more playing.

Took the knife mentioned above to the #1200 (equiv.) and #3000 Trizacts. It was possible with these to present a leading edge. Couple of passes on each on both bevels and the knife cuts paper.

There's still the design limitation imposed by having the roller mount arm almost flush with the abrasive surface which means the choil (hilt, whatever you call it) restricts how far you can come in from the left hand side ... but it's not a deal breaker.

Of more concern is this: I went to refresh the Beading and Parting tool edge, starting where I left off at #600 (equiv.) Trizact and again got the slight dubbing over mentioned earlier. Am now convinced this is a product of the raised join section. It can be dealt with by using a light touch but the join section is doing all the work and it slows things down. Maybe in time as the join section wears down things will speed up. And given the geometry of cutting in practice slight dubbing over may mean little - have yet to test whether this in-principle deficit means anything in practice.

I've also found using the gouge block side to guide the B&P tool that there was some slop in the mating of the guide and the platform groove. Of course there has to be some clearance but it looks to me to be excessive. It measured 10 thou. (The skew guide by contrast measures 7 thou.) It's possible of course by using consistent pressure to get a consistent result but the greater the projection of the tool from the platform the more skill is required.

Robohippy, after this experience, I'd say this system works for turners as well as knife sharpeners and handplane and bench chisel users and rehabbers. I can't think of any other device that is as versatile, and I've used a few. And as you'd expect, there are compromises.

But to paraphrase someone, it's only sharpening.

[rsser]

Sorby has sent a detailed reply to my questions dealing with the issues above.

1. The platen shouldn't have scored so quickly and they'll send a replacement. It was not my heavy handedness. That said it is a sacrificial part of the machine. It apparently can be lapped.

2. The dubbing over of the B&P tool edge could be a result of the belt not lying flat on the platen. I checked this; there was a little buldging out in the middle and the right edge was a little above the platen. They advised rotating the belt tracking bolt through 180 degrees - and this pulled the belt flatter.

3. They don't think a turning tool needs to be sharpened above #240. I've pointed them in the direction of Lacer and Wright's tests as published in American Woodturner.

4. The gouge guide block track is deliberately slack to allow for grindings to clear. The plane blade guide is tighter since edge squareness is important there. I guess the B&P tool is the only turning tool I can think of on which edge squareness is important, in the case of cutting accurate tenons.

[rsser]

With belts running flatter, it's obvious that the gouge guide is far from optimal in getting a square straight cutting edge. To be fair it wasn't designed for it and a plane blade/bench chisel guide is on it's way from Jim Carroll. Tolerances are said to be tighter.

(Post edited).

[rsser]

1. Further tests with a Sorby HSS 3/8th B&P tool ...

The belts are running flatter but dubbing over remains in some applications and I can't see a pattern yet. I'm a bit suss about the AlOx belts that said.

Have learned that it's possible to make the gouge guide work as a 'straight edge' tool guide by consistently pressuring the top left side. I'm now getting square and straight.

Re ripping off steel, the #60 Ceramic belt outperforms the #60 Zirconium belt by a country mile. Can't yet comment on belt life yet.

The AlOx belts are cheap and can't be expected to last long; the join on the #120 is doing nearly all the work but the #240 does better. Go figure. Using a rubber stick to clean the belts helps.

2. Trials with a couple of gouges on the gouge guide (just to be novel :rolleyes: ).

First was with a HT 3/8" Superflute on a #120 Ceramic belt. Got a bit of dubbing over initially but lightened off and all was good. To preserve the grind shape that I like I pushed the bevel up the belt a bit to pull the wings back.

Also on that #120, a HT 1.5" forged spindle gouge. No concerns.

Both done at 45 degrees.

Both efforts raised a burr and left a bevel finish that was a good deal rougher than that from the #120 diamond wheel. Ceramics have the rep of being aggressive so that's to be expected. But with this unit it's quick to change grit to refine an edge.

In terms of speed and ease, trial #2 is saying good things to me. I like the positive angle lock of the platform and also like not having to fiddle with a clamped jig. For touch-ups #240 and #600 are quickly available.

...

I tested the minor dubbing over of the B&P tool on a 65mm diam. spindle piece and it made fine peeling cuts impossible. By minor I mean what I could see under a good light. Was under a mm and prob. under half a mm.

...

Many thanks to Jim Carroll and to Phil of Robert Sorby for their after-sale support.
.

[artme]

All this Sharpening talk is having the opposite effect on senses!

Why can't we accept that there is never likely to be the state of perfection
achievable that we all aspire to?

We have many discussions on the issue, there have been countless articles in
journals over the years and there are any number of methods and systems either
on the market or advanced by their protagonists.

I won't give my personal opinions on all that has been said except o say that this
is just another imperfect system, the more so because it is designed for Sorby tools.

On this point I can say, from experience, that differing brands of tools behave
differently to the same sharpening technique.

A good turner friend of mine has his own method for sharpening Henry Taylor bowl
gouges. They cut beautifully when done his way. The same method used on Sorby
tools renders them virtually useless.

QED?

[rsser]

Seem to recall Artme that I said in this thread that this device has its compromises. Don't recall benchmarking it against perfection, which I've never met.

Yes, it's spun off Sorby's factory system, and given their wide range of tools (turning, carving and bench), their long history and record of innovation, it's worth a good look and try out.

You won't give your personal view; you insist it's imperfect but won't provide any evidence. Well, how could you? ... not having tried it.

As for matching sharpening systems with tool brands, you lost me there.

[artme]

Fair comments Ern, however I was not suggesting that you, or anyone else for that matter,
was benchmarking against perfection. Perfection is that goal we all wish to achieve.

My reference to matching tool brands with systems is a direct reference to this machine.
Sorby developed this machine to sharpen their tools.

Now the last 2 paragraphs of what I had to say were meant to illustrate just this point.

I believe that different flute shapes have an effect on the way a gouge should be sharpened, for
best effect.

I mentioned the Henry Taylor Bowl gouge vs the Sorby gouge When both are sharpened using
the same technique the results are very different. I put this down to the flute shape, as do
other tuners with many years more experience than I.

The particular turner I mentioned will not own Sorby tools on account of this. Other turners
use the Sorby tools very successfully when they are sharpened in the Sorby manner.

I think there is a general technique for sharpening Bowl gouges that works satisfactorily
for most, if not all, brands. stray from this if you are not experienced and expert and you
and you may well be in trouble. I, for instance would not attempt to sharpen a bowl gouge
the way Neil Scobie does, or my friend does the Henry Taylor gouge.

I have see Richard Raffan's gouges ( once) up close. I shuddered at the number of facets, but
he manages to make the tool do the work he wants for him.

Perhaps it is a case of turning Technique and NOT sharpening technique that counts??

I believe the Pro Edge is probably a very good tool - if you want to have, and are satisfied with
the result it gives.

[rsser]

Arthur, Sorby don't have a monopoly on using a linisher for tool making and metal finishing. It's widely used for these purposes.

The only diff. between this and an 8" grind wheel that seems to be the most common sharpening device here is that this produces a flat grind. Flat vs. hollow was canvassed thoroughly in a recent thread.

In practice I had no trouble grinding the two HT tools or tool types that I use the most. After doing the Superflute I cut a few coves in that spindle piece and found nothing of concern.

[artme]

Think you need to read my post again Ern!
Cheers,artme

[rsser]

Have done but we've gone off topic with flute shapes.

PM me your email address and I'll give you my view of the effect of that variable, or start a new thread?

[artme]

New thread sounds fine!! Be my guest.:wink:

[rsser]

It's not an issue of concern for me but will say that flute shape is not the same as cutting edge shape but it has an influence on it.

[rsser]

With the new platen from Jim (nice service mate**) I took a hollow ground HT 1/2" skew to the Sorby. The bevel was 1 cm long. Included bevel angle 45º.


The skewing angle was very close to that of the Sorby guide.


It took about 5 mins to correct the angle and grind out the hollow using the Ceramic #120. Then another few minutes to refine the edge on an AlOx #240. The bevel finish was close to mirror.


There was a bit of dubbing over again, confirmed with a 20x loupe.


I did a bit of hand-powered end-grain paring of radiata just out of interest and the edge was adequate.


Then took it to planing a Radiata spindle piece.


The first pass of about 40mm produced air. 2nd produced dust. 3rd produced long fine shavings, longer than this tool has produced with a hollow ground bevel with the edge honed with an extra fine diamond paddle. One long shaving picked out from a pinch of them measured 70mm*.


Very good result.


Some other observations ...


With this setup it worked better to pass the bevel across the belt with the skew heel leading.


Dubbing over appears to reduce with a finishing effort centred on the belt width and a light touch.


Just to check swapped belt alignments, I've set tracking up to align the belt with the platen's right side. Just as well as the left or mount side drops off a bit.


It remains clear that the join section is doing most of the work when the belts are new. I'm tempted to take a small angle grinder to that high point.


Improvements I'd like to see:


1. Quick fixing for the side cover.
2. A vacuum port.
3. Fixing holes/countersinks, in partic. the lower one on the std platform, have burrs. But it's only a matter of seconds with W&D & sanding block to take them off.
4. Tighter tolerances on the gouge block track. I'm not finding accumulated grindings a problem.
5. If the platen is sacrificial and can be lapped, some adjustment in its mount to compensate. This is me just being anal as the yanks say :D. We're only talking about a few thou.


...


* Maybe this goes to the pref. of some experienced turners for a flat bevel.


** We didn't coordinate too well on this; Sorby's also sent one out which I'll forward to you.

[Jim Carroll]

Ern a concern with a vacuum port would be collecting metal filings, unsure if there is a vac suitable for this use.

Hang onto the platen.:2tsup:

[rsser]

Good point Jim.

The only sparks I'm seeing are off the ceramics; I've been sucking up grindings at the end of a session with a cheap shop vac. Yeah, maybe it'll die next week. Thanks; and thanks.

Had a shot at lapping the scored platen. 20 mins on float glass using quality #90 SiC grains. It's pretty hard steel. That effort improved it but it's not 'anal' flat. Actually it wasn't dead flat from the factory (excluding the left side from that observation).

...

I stepped up to a HT 1.25" skew. The skew angle was well out of the guide setting and I had at it with the #60 ceramic and 5 mins in, when it was working OK but not spectacularly (there was a lot of steel to remove) just out of interest I took it to the 8" bench grinder. That has a Norton #46 3X. Performed as expected: ripped off the steel but ran cool (almost continual grinding was possible but note this tool is its own heat sink) and was slow to clog.

Tomorrow I'll grind the bevel flat and refine the edge on the Sorby.

[rsser]

Took an old 60 mm wide Stanley plane blade to the unit, looking to regrind the bevel angle to 25º.

The Ceramic #120, now somewhat worn, did the job.

You don't need a dead straight edge as many woodies would after bevel reshaping take the blade to a whetstone with a jig for a secondary bevel.

With a unit with this capacity for getting a mirror finish there may be a lost opportunity here though, as the guide wasn't quite up to getting a straight edge with this size blade - in my view the reason for that is the mitred corners on the bottom of the platform meant that less support for the guide was available at the extreme points of the grinding needed.

I can't see the reason for which those corners are mitred, other than an aesthetic one.

[rsser]

I'm told that the A30, said by Sorby to be equiv. to P600, is actually equiv. to P800 acc to the 3M dogalogue.

So in the Sorby belt range there's a bit of a gap btwn #240 and #800.

That said, the Sorby Alox #240, as noted, produces a very good finish. Just stock up on them as on M2 they don't have a long life.

[NeilS]

So in the Sorby belt range there's a bit of a gap btwn #240 and #800.



Useful to remember that the US and European grit sizes (the P ones) start to diverge quite significantly when you get up around #600 to #800.

e.g #600 in the US system is 15 microns, yet 16 microns in the European system is P1200. See here (http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/grits.htm).

That may (or may not) account for the apparent gap.

[rsser]

Thanks for the heads-up Neil.

And Trizact can use three different abrasive grains as well!

[rsser]

RS Woodworker's Square Guide (http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/woodworkerssquareguide.htm)

[NeilS]

Ern, many thanks for your thorough trial and review of the Pro-Edge.

Invaluable input into the knowledge base of the forum, IMO.

~~~~~

Now that greenies have gone (I think, not that I ever worked what those were all about) I've voted on this thread as being excellent, which I presume is the new way of doing greenies.

[Sturdee]

Now that greenies have gone (I think, not that I ever worked what those were all about) I've voted on this thread as being excellent, which I presume is the new way of doing greenies.

Still there, the symbol between "Blog this post" and " Report this post". To see your greenies click on the "Settings" tab on the top right of your screen.


Peter.

[rsser]

Thanks for the feedback Neil.

[NeilS]

Still there, the symbol between "Blog this post" and " Report this post". To see your greenies click on the "Settings" tab on the top right of your screen.


Peter.

And, so it is.

Thanks Sturdee.

[rsser]

This time ... er, what episode is this? :rolleyes:

11cm Mundial started on the Trizact A30*. Again, trailing presentation needed.

Then to the two finer belts in the Sorby Trizact range. Leading poss. here.

Good result freehanded**. Cut paper again.

But got a couple of patches of blue at the coarser grit. Plenty of heat was being generated despite a light touch. This knife has a light blade.

...

I haven't kept track of belt wear rates. Impressions with HSS to summarise are that the AlOx wear fairly quickly; the Ceramics still keep ripping off metal despite feeling dull to the touch; not enough mileage to say with Zirc. and Trizact.

------------

* Wow, the numerals actually refer to approx. micron size (thanks for that table again Neil) - but I don't know how this is measured; not that it matters much. The stuff works.

** Due to the excellent service from Sorby and Jim Carroll there'll be a spare platen and I fancy sticking a hardwood convex form to it so a knife edge can easily come in from both sides. (As an aside, I have tried a Sheppach knife jig on the gouge long-grind adaptor but there wasn't enough clearance at the belt end for the angle I wanted).

[NeilS]

the numerals actually refer to approx. micron size ... but I don't know how this is measured.


.... with a micron-scope? :B

[Paul39]

* Wow, the numerals actually refer to approx. micron size (thanks for that table again Neil) - but I don't know how this is measured; not that it matters much. The stuff works.

I think the size is determined by what passes through a mesh with the proper size openings,
starting with larger, then smaller and smaller mesh.

The result is a grit that will pass through a certain size mesh but not through the next smaller. An exact, all the same size grit is not possible with this system.

Maybe someone in the sandpaper biz will reply.

[rsser]

.... with a micron-scope? :B

Did that slip through or are we down to scraping the bottom of the barrel? :D

(Yep Paul, there's the mesh method and also a sedimentation method I gather.

There can be some variation in particle size; some emery stick was sold to me as something like #600 +/- 200!).

[rsser]

Decided it was time to polish the flutes of the two Thompson 5/8" gouges.

The V has been a mainstay and with the blacking off two milling tracks stuck out like dog's balls. I should say that I've never noticed this in use but this task is always a goodun for a quiet Sun. arvo and every margin matters to those who are on the obsessive side about sharpening :rolleyes:

Well that took some time. Started with some course diamond rods then moved to dowel rod with 3M microfinishing abrasives at 60 and 40 microns. And have really only worked the end.

That done, the freehanded cutting edge also showed up like the proverbials as poor in shape. Drum roll ... time for Mr Sorby.

With new #120 and #240 Alox belts and the V-block, the hollow grind was taken out, the edge curve came up well, and the bevel was looking good. Easy enough.

With the Thompson U-gouge, the milling was far better and the work shorter. But taken to the ProEdge... woops. There's pre-sets for 60 and 80 degrees but not the 70 that this tool occasionally earns its keep with. No drama; ignore the pre-set pin and just clamp the platform. It's a step away from easy repeatability but it's enough for this tool. And there's space in the pivot plate to drill my own hole - which I'll do.

...

With all the applications possible with this tool there's an insatiable appetite for belts. Jim's been doing a good job of keeping this junkie satisfied but some belts are again on back-order. And I'd like to see something btwn Alox 240 and Trizact 600 (or whatever it is, equiv. in P ratings).

There's a forum buy of Berg bench chisels, which I love, waiting for the full rehab job. Ripe for batch processing.

Meantime, with all the investment in belts, they come in out of the shed on hot days. No way is a gamble going to be made on the joining tape quality in our atrocious summer!

..

The next big challenge is to master shaping/sharpening on bench chisels and plane blades. Regrinding a bevel on a Veritas blade, 56mm wide x 5mm thick, will make for a possibly noisy Sun. arvo. :D

[rsser]

Have had a play with this and it's a quantum improvement on the basic version. Click (http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/woodworkerssquareguide.htm)

It's bigger and more stable.

It took about 10 mins to grind the nick out of the corner of a 3/4" BE chisel, from #60 ceramic (worn) to fresh #120 ceramic and #240 Alox.

Took a bit of care cos with the BEs only about half the width of the top was available as the 'land'.

A limitation is immediately apparent. Given the projection at 25º I was close to runnning out of flat top (about 10 cm) and into the socket which would've produced an angle change. It wouldn't have been possible to use the guide to produce a 20º grind.

Prob. the way around this would be to use the short-tool platform and go freehand or knock up a 'depth clamp'.

[cookie48]

I finally got one from Carroll's.:2tsup:
Not being a pro but very rank amateur I need all the help I can get to sharpen my tools.
My first go at the Pro system was better than I expected.
My tools have never cut better nor felt so comfortable to use.
My only complaint is the resupply of belts and getting the extra attachments.
It seems that the Pro is very popular as Jim can not keep his supplies up, so there can be a bit of a wait for them.
Still once it all settles down supplies should be more readily available.
Over all I am more than pleased with the Pro and very happy to use it.
Just my two bob's worth.
Cookie

[smiife]

I finally got one from Carroll's.:2tsup:
Not being a pro but very rank amateur I need all the help I can get to sharpen my tools.
My first go at the Pro system was better than I expected.
My tools have never cut better nor felt so comfortable to use.
My only complaint is the resupply of belts and getting the extra attachments.
It seems that the Pro is very popular as Jim can not keep his supplies up, so there can be a bit of a wait for them.
Still once it all settles down supplies should be more readily available.
Over all I am more than pleased with the Pro and very happy to use it.
Just my two bob's worth.
Cookie

hi guys,
i have to agree with what cookie has said,i got mine for xmas,and have
found it to be very good in sharpening my tools ,and to get a consistant
edge all the time ever time:U very happy,...............thanks jim:2tsup:
cheers smiife:2tsup:

[rsser]

Following the prob. I had with the Berg BE I've made a mod to the new square-edge jig, and pulled together my experience with the ProEdge with bench chisels here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/sorby-pro-edge-bench-chisels-plane-blades-166675/)

[Syd Sellers]

I got one a few years back. Great thing going for a quick sharpen.... I love it. You always get the same angle on the tool and it's sharp!!! Plus very little of your tool ends up on the floor as dust!!!

[robo hippy]

Earn,
This would make a great article for the magazines......

robo hippy

[rsser]

Thanks Reed.

Australian Woodworker has done one.

May contact Aust. Wood Review.

[NeilS]

Earn,
This would make a great article for the magazines......



+1

[rsser]

AWR feels it's had enough exposure.

UK? Woodturning

US? Woodturning Design or AWT. What do you think Reed?

[Big Shed]

AWR feels it's had enough exposure.



Does that mean Sorby don't advertise enough in AWR?:rolleyes:

[rsser]

Wouldn't have thought so Fred.

Aus WWer has done a piece already (as posted).

And I've shared my stuff here for nix. (That said, in librarian's terms I'd call my posts ephemera.)

And the unit's been on the market for what, 5 years now?

[rsser]

Have done some work with bench chisels and one plane blade. Results reported here:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/sorby-pro-edge-bench-chisels-plane-blades-166675/

Other than that:

1. Grindings promote rust on bare metal on this unit and while that does nothing to compromise its functioning I hate rust anywhere and have learned to clean and treat more regularly than with any other machine in the workshop.

2. Thesandpaperman now offers replacement belts. Have spent some time with the ceramic #120 and found the joint to be less proud than the equiv. Sorby-supplied belt and my impression is that it didn't last quite as long - I wasn't measuring.