Black Palm

[shortwoodturner]

Hey,

This is Michael again. I went to the local wood store in Houston called Wood Wright. I bought these blanks called black palm. I tried turning it yesterday, but I had a problem with it breaking. The gouge would catch a part of it and crack. If anyone has turned it and has any tips can you please help me with my problem?

Thanks,

Michael Caito

[gatiep]

Use sharp tools, rub the bevel and you'll have no problems. I have turned a number of pens from Black Palm and it only stuffs up with blunt gear and wrong turning technique, ie not as forgiving as some other timbers. If you really have a brittle piece, run some thin superglue over it before turning. ( How about that commission cheque you super glue manufacturers ).

Be sure to wear a full face mask or goggles and some form of dust mask as the dust is an irritant and possibly carcinogenic like grass tree. Better be safe than sorry as new lungs or a new life is not redily available from the corner shop......well not where I live anyway.

The finished product in Black Palm is worth the effort. I wipe the project with methylated spirit soaked rag befor I finish with Shellawax. A few coats of Shellawax well burnished in will make it look like acrylic. Do sand down to 600 minimum tho.

:)

[Salty]

I've made a number of pens in black palm and I agree with Gatiep - sharp tools are the answer. I have found that a skew rather than a gouge cuts the palm better. there again - MUST be sharp and will need sharpening a number of times (usually a diamond hone ) during the proceedure. I have been finishing with sanding sealer, mirotone nitrocellulose pressure pack and mirotone wax applied with oooo steel wool and get a very good lustre finish.

[shortwoodturner]

thanks for the help
im just wondering wat you mean by rub the bevel
and the skew just made it worse
michael

[Salty]

Rubbing the bevel means to place the tool(gouge or skew) on the work so that the bevel is rubbing on the wood but not cutting. Then by minimally adjusting the tool handle you will get the tool to start cutting. Its sorta like a neutral point from which the cutting can start safely and slowly. You must have the skew (or gouge) razor sharp and take fine cuts. My assessment of sharpness is to shave the arm but that's a personal decision:rolleyes:
Using the skew so that its cutting properly should give the finest of ribbons in most timbers but in black palms short fiberous grain this is not as obvious.
The first 10 pens are the worst!

[Ross]

I found the best method for me was to roughly turn the black palm and then spend more time sanding it down. I started with 80 grit and finished with 2000 then added 5-6 coats of shellawax with a light sand with 2000 grit between coates. Great looking and feeling pens.

Ross

[Salty]

Ross - the 80 grit paper is referred to as shaping paper at our club! Still it is a valid and pragmatic way of dealing with difficult timbers such as Black Palm. I have also found that if you get to the finished shape and have a small tearout which is sometimes unavoidable in black palm a mixture of oxide and superglue putty quickly pressed into the defect and cured then sanded carefully does the job.

[shortwoodturner]

Thanks For the help,
My pen is finnaly made with the black palm. It turned out great. Is there a way i can post a picture for you guys to see. Also I want to no if 10$ is to expensive or to cheap for slimline pens. And if 20$ is to expensive for a Designer Pen.

Thanks Again,
Michael (14)

[Ross]

Michael

I wholesale slimline pens made of common timbers for $19.95 and pens like the black palm, zebra wood etc for $34.95.

Take a digital pic, save it as a low res jpeg or tiff and email it as an attachment.

Ross

[gatiep]

Quote
"I wholesale slimline pens made of common timbers for $19.95 and pens like the black palm, zebra wood etc for $34.95."

Wow! we surely far behind on the prices here in Perth.Wholesale around $12-00 and they resell them for around $17-50. It may pay me to move to Sydney! Good luck with those prices.

Gatiep...........in shock and dreaming about Sydney prices!

:)

[powderpost]

I regularly get $20.oo wholesale price for standard pens. More for Mt Blanc style.
Jim

[gatiep]

Hey Jim,

Is this for the standard slimline twist type pen? Perth prices are definately lots lower. There are a few gallaries that charge up to $35-00 but I see the same pens there on every visit. Maybe they sell from stock not in the display cupboard. Privately I've sold for 15 and 17-50 but to shops mostly $12-00 and then on consignment too!
I'm real happy for you guys getting those prices.
Great stuff.

:)

[TimberNut]

Michael,

A good guide is to cover your costs, and then your time at about $1 per minute (for proficient turning). Of course, if the competition is underselling that, then you have to match the market to be competitive.

It wouldn't be reasonable to calculate every minute for new things you try, but wholesale production runs should run at that.
Work out how long it would take you if you'd made 30 or 40 and had it down to 'a fine art' and then that will give you a good guide. Don't forget to cover costs for timber, glue, finish (waxes etc), and WEAR AND TEAR ON MACHINERY.
A lot of hobbists will undercharge, and in the end destroy the market for us all.

Guys have to sell to galleries cheaper for simple production items but if you sell direct - don't undersell yourself.

These ones shown went for $75 each. I had no trouble at all selling them. But then they are a little different from the standard simple ones. I'd suggest that $25 would be reasonable for slim-line twist, if selling direct.

[JackoH]

I will supply you with as many pens as you like for $12.50. ( #1) each made from indigenous timbers. Roller Ball, Cigar and Dome for $22.00. This is my W/sale price. Generally add 50% when selling at shows, markets etc.

[Ross]

Have you costed out your pens properly?

The overheads to make a batch of 10 pens is a bit over $10/pen, that takes into account - power, phone, materials, maintainance, replacement (over 5 years) of tools and equipment (lathe, drill, dust extractor, chisels, bench grinder,etc), delivery, sales and account time, etc. This leaves about $9/pen for manufacturing time, failures, bad debts and if you are lucky profit.

I know it's a hobby but don't undersell yourself. How much are you actually making?

Ross

[Ruffy]

Just to add my two cents worth.

For a standard twist pen I charge $25, for a pencil $30, for anything else the price goes up dramatically depending on the cost of the kit.

I am not in it to make a living from it but I am interested in prsuing my hobby and keeping SWMBO off my back about costs.

I haven't yet sold any wholesale so have no real idea as yet about pricing those. I have sold at least 50 pens to people at work and other friends around the area. They are very happy at the price.

Intitially I set my price based on the cost of the pen kit $2.20 the price of a blank call it $2.80 (average) that makes it a neat $5, but it is still a bunch of bits and a chunk of timber. Based on what I had been told is an acceptable and smart practice I tripled the base costs to give me $15 and then thought about how much profit I wanted that was IMHO reasonable $10 a pen sounded fair so there you have it $25 for a twist pen.

For the pencils I was far more scientific, the kits cost a considerable amount more than the pen ones so therefore with extremely wet finger held in the air I tossed my brain and thought that an extra $5 each sounded cool :cool: ergo $30 for a pencil.

Regardless of how quick or slow I make these things it is still my skill (or lack off) and my time that produces them. People do not have to buy them if they think they are too expensive. But as yet no one has complained or even tried to bargain (now that was surprising)

Probably said more than my two cents worth but what they heck.:p

[gatiep]

Hey Guys,

I do agree with you on the higher prices, but unfortunately those that I quoted are the going prices in Perth obviously after some hobbyists have stuffed up the market! I have made over 1000 pens over several years so far, but unfortunately when there are people who is prepared to sell for less, and much less quality too, it buggers up the market for everybody. I have sold to galleries at your quoted prices, but privately and to shops ( wholesale that is ) it seems that $12 is about the max in Perth. Now some of these dealers do sell for up to $35-00 in tourist areas, but other shops are at about $18-50 here. To make matters worse they expect it to be on consignment.....so they only pay once they have sold it. Consignment unfortunately means that they would rather push merchandise that they have had to pay for. I find that turning copy items, like a replacement part, ie. leg or whatever for an antique bit of furniture is a lot more profitable, however I do have a minimum amount before I would even consider switching on the lathe.
Have a good weekend.

:)

[JackoH]

[QUOTE=Ross]Have you costed out your pens properly?

Kits for the #1 pen cost app.$2.60. Wood is offcuts from other projects,(I don't buy blanks.) It takes approx. 15 minutes to saw drill and glue up and another 20 or so to turn and finish. I think that $12.50 wholesale is a reasonable return. I would love to charge more but that's all the market will stand around here, and on consignment too! As I said previously I get $20 retail at craft days etc.
(Incidentally I am retired and would probably sit around all day drinking beer and watching the telly if I wasn't in the shed. As it is this helps pay for the beer.) :)

[gatiep]

Jack:

I have actually timed myself doing pens in batches of 24 at a time, start to finish. I also use free wood for them. From the time that I start cutting blanks, drill on the lathe, glue in tubes with thin ca, turn, sand to 600 and finish with Shellawax is 4 hours for the 24 pens. I start at 9 am and at 1 pm I have my 24 pens, sometimes maybe 10 or 20 minutes more, but it makes total time around 10 to 12 minutes per pen. So as you say the 12-50 gives a reasonable return, definately not making a huge profit, but as a bit on the side for a retired person it is not bad. What does bug me is when the retailer charges $35-00 for the pen and one still has to wait for the on consignment payout eventually. Pens are mostly impulse buys, so they spend a lot less time making the sale than the turner did making it. Oh ok, they take up room and they have rent to pay.....mmm well the turners workshop didn't happen...he paid for it and the machines, electricity etc....so he also has overheads.
So what I'm saying, both sides have overheads , but the retailer gets a much bigger slice than the turner. So if I ran it as a business I definately would like more than the $12-50, but as a hobbyist or a retired person killing time and making beer money, the $12-50 is ok. Suppose it depends on how much beer you consume!
Anyway, seems like here in Perth, wholesale is around $12-00 and probably won't go up.

Enjoy the weekend
:)

[Ross]

If your wholesale market will only pay $12.50/pen experiment and find a timber and or design that will sell quicker and that they will pay more for. I found black palm pens look and feel expensive so they sell faster and I can charge more for them.

Create the demand.

Ross