Scraping my Clifton no.5 hand plane

[Ueee]

Hi,
After Greg's comments about scraping in hand planes in the Substitute for a granite surface plate thread, i though i'd attack my Clifton no.5. These planes are of the bedrock design with a full mating frog, rather than the small mating surfaces on the standard bailey style planes.

I have to say, i was pretty disappointed with the lack of flatness and fit of the frog. I would expect better from a mid range manufacturer.

First my granite. Just like BT's it is 2.2micon high in the middle.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0652.jpg

the top half of the frog blued off the granite, i used the canode blue.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0653.jpg

the bottom half blued off the top half

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0654.jpg

about 10 rounds in (off the granite)

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0657.jpg

I stopped at this-16 or 18 rounds i think

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0658.jpg

Then i started on the bottom half. It took me a few goes to get a good spot off the cast iron top half. I just needed to use more blue to get a good reading. Nasty space to try and scrape in. Could only really attack it from a 70 deg arc.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0661.jpg

again it took a few rounds, not sure how many but it was a bit hit and miss at the start until i worked out how much blue i needed to use.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0662.jpg

More to follow

Ewan

[Ueee]

After i had the mating surfaces of the frog done i thought i'd check the bottom for flat. It was lapped on a cast iron jointer table, with sticky backed sand paper, some 10 years ago when i got it. To be fair it did see alot of work when i was cabinetmaking full time.

Well thats not flat.......

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0656.jpg

Some 10 rounds in...not getting very far

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0663.jpg

slowly the patches grow....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0664.jpg

This is where i stopped this evening. Feels like i did 100 rounds but in reality it was probably only 25 or so. For those who are woodworkers aswell, you can clearly tell i am right handed and use the plane alot skewed across an edge, just by the way the base is worn.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0666.jpg

Ewan

[Dave J]

I see your off and running, funny how things we thought where dead flat years ago are nowhere near it.

Dave

[simonl]

After i had the mating surfaces of the frog done i thought i'd check the bottom for flat. It was lapped on a cast iron jointer table, with sticky backed sand paper, some 10 years ago when i got it. To be fair it did see alot of work when i was cabinetmaking full time.

Well thats not flat.......

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0656.jpg

Some 10 rounds in...not getting very far

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0663.jpg

slowly the patches grow....

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0664.jpg

This is where i stopped this evening. Feels like i did 100 rounds but in reality it was probably only 25 or so. For those who are woodworkers aswell, you can clearly tell i am right handed and use the plane alot skewed across an edge, just by the way the base is worn.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0666.jpg

Ewan

Looking good Ueee. Think how flat that thing will be when you done!

I would never have thought to scrape a hand plane. Now that I think about it, for me it's probably a really good exercise in scraping before I try it on something a little more substantial. Worst I can do is butcher my Record No.5 that I bought secondhand from the Wantirna Market! :B
No offence to the woodworking folk!

I'm starting on my hand scraper this morning yay! It won't have a nice handle like yours though Ueee. :no:

Simon

[Sam]

Can I ask a daft question ? Have you coated the plate with blue, then put the plane on top ?

[Michael G]

Not so daft Sam - I had to explain a couple of times to the other half before heading off to scrapfest.
However, yes - the granite plate is smeared with a very thin layer of spotting compound (blue stuff) and when the plane sole is rubbed on this, the high spots are revealed. Scraping typically only takes off minute amounts of metal, so the 10 rounds Ewan is talking about may only be taking off 0.001" or so of an inch.

Michael

[Machtool]

G’day Ewan

Is that the first time you have ever scraped some thing? Its looking good so far. Not bad for a nights work. What have you got by way of an oil stone to knock of the high spots between passes?

The only thing I’d add, I’m thinking you’re using the small radius on that tip. Go to the bigger one while your roughing down those ends. You still have some meat to take of, the wider cut of a 90mm radius will help.


Have you coated the plate with blue, then put the plane on top ?
Just to add to what Michael said, that’s what the rubber Brayer is about in the very first picture. You use that to roll out a thin film of bearing blue on the plate. A Technique we have inherited from our American cousins, only in the last few years.

Regards Phil.

[Ueee]

Looking good Ueee. Think how flat that thing will be when you done!

I would never have thought to scrape a hand plane. Now that I think about it, for me it's probably a really good exercise in scraping before I try it on something a little more substantial. Worst I can do is butcher my Record No.5 that I bought secondhand from the Wantirna Market! :B
No offence to the woodworking folk!

I'm starting on my hand scraper this morning yay! It won't have a nice handle like yours though Ueee. :no:

Simon

Hi Simon,
I was just going to start on a piece of scrap cast iron, but after GQ's comments last night in the surface plate substitute thread i thought i may as well scrape something productively. As you can see, i could hardly make it worse!
The scraper is a Phil "Machtool" one, with a Ray G handle. My wood lathe is still in my late grandfathers shed on the central coast.


G’day Ewan

Is that the first time you have ever scraped some thing? Its looking good so far. Not bad for a nights work. What have you got by way of an oil stone to knock of the high spots between passes?

The only thing I’d add, I’m thinking you’re using the small radius on that tip. Go to the bigger one while your roughing down those ends. You still have some meat to take of, the wider cut of a 90mm radius will help.

Regards Phil.

Hi Phil,
Yes it is the first time i have scraped something "for real". I scraped some old cast iron when i got the scraper from you just to get the feel of it. My biggest problem so far is getting the right amount of blue on the granite. I think i just re-charged it when i spotted for the last time.
I didn't even realise that the scraper had 2 different radius, i'm off to the shed now to investigate.
I am using a DMT diamond "file" as a stone, it classed as "fine". I am using this as i use water with the diamond stones and i'm using the canode, so i can't contaminate water/oil.

Ewan

[Machtool]

I didn't even realise that the scraper had 2 different radius, i'm off to the shed now to investigate.
Those have 2 opposite sides with 60 mm rad's, and 2 sides with 90mm rad's. All of them are negative ground to give you 8 edges.

When you take it out of the clamp, and look at all 4 sides, the 90mm ones look flatter. The 90mm one will give you a wider cut. That will tie in better with the long strokes you are doing.

Keep at that until you start to get bluing in the guts, then swing back to the 60mm rad. And start to shorten your strokes up.

Regards Phil.

[Ueee]

Thanks Phil,
It's painfully obvious now I have pulled the tip out, I'll post some more pics as I get closer to flat.

Ewan

[Machtool]

I am using a DMT diamond "file" as a stone, it classed as "fine".
Dont be afraid of using something more than “fine” at this stage. You need to invest in a India stone.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0664.jpg

In that picture, the blue spots left after a pass. A decent stone will knock off the high spots you missed. You can pay big money for Stones, but for work like that, Norton do some thing called a Combo Sportsman stone, #112 - 100 x 45 x 16mm in course and fine combo.

I was with Stu, last Saturday, and we visited a tool shop. They had one listed for $12 bucks. But there was a sale going on, had I known, I’d have grabbed it for you.

I’m not convinced about diamond files. Combination of two things, not convinced how they go on some thing as soft as cast iron, and its a waste of good diamond, when a cheaper hard stone works as well or better.

Phil
(P.S Get out of the shop and back to the grindstone)

[Ueee]

Dont be afraid of using something more than “fine” at this stage. You need to invest in a India stone.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0664.jpg

In that picture, the blue spots left after a pass. A decent stone will knock off the high spots you missed. You can pay big money for Stones, but for work like that, Norton do some thing called a Combo Sportsman stone, #112 - 100 x 45 x 16mm in course and fine combo.

I was with Stu, last Saturday, and we visited a tool shop. They had one listed for $12 bucks. But there was a sale going on, had I known, I’d have grabbed it for you.

I’m not convinced about diamond files. Combination of two things, not convinced how they go on some thing as soft as cast iron, and its a waste of good diamond, when a cheaper hard stone works as well or better.

Phil
(P.S Get out of the shop and back to the grindstone)

Hi Phil,
In that pic, that is new spots after a pass.....the first few passes i did i scraped way more than just the blue, as i found the blue "smeared" on the polished surface of the plane. I'll keep my eye out for a stone, i know the ones you mean, i have a big one i got when i was a first year, before i got a big diamond stone. The "fine" (600 mesh i think) can still remove alot of material, and is um, well what i would have called flat till yesterday.

Ewan

[Ueee]

After another 6 rounds (4 before my "break" and 2 after) i finally got this spotting:

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0675.jpg

Turning the tip and using a r90 edge made it alot easier.
The last bit of untouched surface can be seen near the pink putty stain on the vice.

Then back to the r60 edge and 4 rounds later.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG0676.jpg

Probably more than good enough for a plane, but thats not he point of the exercise!

I'm trying really hard not too touch the area around the throat, and just trying to stone it off, but i still seem to have dug a ditch around it.

Ewan

[simonl]

Hi Ueee,

That's looking great!

[Greg Q]

I agree...that looks good for a hand plane. Plenty of bearing spots, yet coarse enough to prevent unwanted 'stiction' with the wood. As you know you will end up wearing the high spots down quixkly anyway.

One thing you might try with the frog mating surface is to use some lapping compound and rub the frog against the sole so that you end up with a larger contact area. You can do the same with the blade and the cap iron. Being a Clifton I imagine it has a two piece cao iron. All you need do there is ensure the nose of the cap iron contacts the blade evenly and at the absolute leading edge of the cap iron.

The lever cap probably won't need much attention...just make sure that it mates with the blade & cap iron over a large area.

Greg...who is wondering how to attack his Lie Nielson corrugated #7 which is no longer flat.

[Machtool]

as i found the blue "smeared" on the polished surface of the plane.
I walked out of work, a few hours ago, kicking myself for not mentioning that. I had thought about it first thing this morning.

Generally, once you have made the decision that something is enough out of plane to scrape it. The first thing you would do, is a single or double break up pass, just to put a texture on the surface, so it takes the blue better. It takes negligible material off, you just get a better read. I really like your description of “smeared” on a polished surface. That’s what you get when you don’t break up.

Having said that, it was pretty obvious your plane was concave, so you attacked it from each end. That’s what I would have done. Break up or no break up.

Tin ####. You know there are 28 guys here that hate you now. . (Joke) Those being the Scrapfest 1 & 2 guys that paid $300 bucks for the privilege. You have sort of grasped the first %30 - %40 percent.

You Aussie blokes are freakin me out. They get a $60 dollar granite flat and a $100 bucks worth of scraper and carbide, with a bit of blue thrown into the deal. Next minute they are attacking some name brand plane. We fight above our weight.

Phil.

[Ueee]

I walked out of work, a few hours ago, kicking myself for not mentioning that. I had thought about it first thing this morning.

Generally, once you have made the decision that something is enough out of plane to scrape it. The first thing you would do, is a single or double break up pass, just to put a texture on the surface, so it takes the blue better. It takes negligible material off, you just get a better read. I really like your description of “smeared” on a polished surface. That’s what you get when you don’t break up.

Having said that, it was pretty obvious your plane was concave, so you attacked it from each end. That’s what I would have done. Break up or no break up.

Tin ####. You know there are 28 guys here that hate you now. . (Joke) Those being the Scrapfest 1 & 2 guys that paid $300 bucks for the privilege. You have sort of grasped the first %30 - %40 percent.

You Aussie blokes are freakin me out. They get a $60 dollar granite flat and a $100 bucks worth of scraper and carbide, with a bit of blue thrown into the deal. Next minute they are attacking some name brand plane. We fight above our weight.

Phil.

Thanks Phil,
I did think to myself at one stage that i'm getting this free help and its not really fair on the scrapefest goer's, but once again the help from forum members has been great. The only other source of info i have got is from Nicks utube vids. A mention of a brayer here, a note about black spots there.....I tend to have a pretty good memory for stuff i'm interested in.

Not to talk myself up, but i'm very lucky to be very good at picking up any manual task, i think i just have a good "feel" for things. This of course is counterbalanced by my terrible social skills. If we ever meet just remember to bring your flash cards, so i know in what context you are saying something. I have lived with my wife for 10 years now and she still threatens to make flashcards for me, or at least a book with different facial expressions so i can work out which one fits.

As i think i have said before, i would come to another scrapefest or machine re-building fest. The last one was held on Arthur's birthday so that was not an option.

Thanks for the tip on the lapping paste GQ, I think i'll get some and give it ago. To be honest i actually find my Pops old bailey no5 a better plane, and the Clifton somewhat "lifeless" despite the price tag. What I'm really saying it is the one plane i own that would hurt me the least it i f####d it up.

Next on the list is something a bit more challenging. I have a 1200x200x150 piece of cast iron angle off an old multiborer. I was going to cut 3 250mm long angle plates out of it, add some webs and scrape square. Then i'll cut one into 2 smaller angle plates. Of course i'll need to make a scraper sharpener first, and my back is telling me i need to get my height adjustable, rotating scraping table finished (Freddie)

[PDW]

Tin ####. You know there are 28 guys here that hate you now. . (Joke) Those being the Scrapfest 1 & 2 guys that paid $300 bucks for the privilege. You have sort of grasped the first %30 - %40 percent.


More power to him, I say. Great to see someone having a go and making progress.

Having a known flat surface gives you a big start in this caper I think. Everyone should get their own tombstone.

PDW

[Machtool]

More power to him, I say. Great to see someone having a go and making progress
Just to be clear, and make sure there’s no offence, that’s why I included "(Joke)"

If someone grabs it by the balls and attacks it like that, I couldn't be happier.

Phil.

[Steamwhisperer]

I admire you more and more everyday Phil. You would think your job was done after the classes had finished but you keep giving advice and encouragement long after the dust has settled. I would now show twenty thumbs up but this damn phone.....

Phil

[Abratool]

I admire you more and more everyday Phil. You would think your job was done after the classes had finished but you keep giving advice and encouragement long after the dust has settled. I would now show twenty thumbs up but this damn phone.....

Phil
I had the same thoughts.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:
regards
Bruce

[RayG]

Hi Ewan,

Very impressive for a first time scraping project. It looks like you've got the "touch"

Good stuff :2tsup:

Now I can't wait to see how GQ goes removing the corrugations from his LN 7C... :)

Regards
Ray

PS +1 to what Phil and Bruce said..

[localele]

Hi Ewan, Can't tell from the photos but did you screw the frog back in before flattening the bottom?

[Greg Q]

Hi

Now I can't wait to see how GQ goes removing the corrugations from his LN 7C... :)

Regards
Ray

PS +1 to what Phil and Bruce said..


Ray...I think I figured out how to do it with beer. Or similar currency as accepted at my friendly neighbourhood surface grinder owner's place. Or just use my old #8 which took me 16 hours to flatten, starting with an angle grinder. (it came out of a shed fire profoundly pringled.)

[pmcgee]

Hi Ewan, Can't tell from the photos but did you screw the frog back in before flattening the bottom?

Yes ... I was wondering ... given the degree of flatness you are aiming for/achieving ...

It is suggested to have the blade in place, under tension, drawn back when 'lapping' with w+d or whatever.

Do you think it will make much difference? This exercise should be able to determine that pretty conclusively I should think.

Thanks,
Paul.

[Ueee]

Hi Ewan, Can't tell from the photos but did you screw the frog back in before flattening the bottom?

Hi,
No the frog was still out. I'll clean the blue off, replace the frog and blade and re-spot, then we can compare. I was taught by a German master-craftsman, and he always just removed the blade for lapping. it will be interesting to see. Now the frog mating surfaces are flat though, there should be very little distortion in fixing it down....i hope.

[eskimo]

Worst I can do is butcher my Record No.5

I was just thinking the same Simon

[simonl]

I walked out of work, a few hours ago, kicking myself for not mentioning that. I had thought about it first thing this morning.

Generally, once you have made the decision that something is enough out of plane to scrape it. The first thing you would do, is a single or double break up pass, just to put a texture on the surface, so it takes the blue better. It takes negligible material off, you just get a better read. I really like your description of “smeared” on a polished surface. That’s what you get when you don’t break up.

Having said that, it was pretty obvious your plane was concave, so you attacked it from each end. That’s what I would have done. Break up or no break up.

Tin ####. You know there are 28 guys here that hate you now. . (Joke) Those being the Scrapfest 1 & 2 guys that paid $300 bucks for the privilege. You have sort of grasped the first %30 - %40 percent.

You Aussie blokes are freakin me out. They get a $60 dollar granite flat and a $100 bucks worth of scraper and carbide, with a bit of blue thrown into the deal. Next minute they are attacking some name brand plane. We fight above our weight.

Phil.

It was money well spent on my behalf. It's very liberating to be able look at precise mating parts on my machine and have the confidence to say I reckon I can improve that! AND also the nouse to know when I'm probably out of my depth and perhaps should not mess with it. I dare say the latter is the hardest skill to acquire... for me anyway.

Good work Ueee!

[Ueee]

Just a quick update on the plane, i put the frog, handles and blade back on today. I then spotted the base again. The is no change to the spot pattern, so i would say that there is no need leave the blade or frog on for lapping or any other form of flattening plane soles. For this plane anyway! Maybe a standard stanley or record may be not as rigid and will move, but i doubt it.