What is this?

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi all,
Would anyone know what these are used for.
The square I think I have worked out but the other bits have me stumped.:D

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Starrett No. 251 Steel Beam Trammel 20" C251C Machinist Tool Tools | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-No-251-Steel-Beam-Trammel-20-C251C-Machinist-Tool-Tools-/160818408760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2571862d38)

In case the link gets hoisted over to the Ebay section, they are attachments for a trammel. You are missing the rod or beam.

BT

[Steamwhisperer]

Starrett No. 251 Steel Beam Trammel 20" C251C Machinist Tool Tools | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-No-251-Steel-Beam-Trammel-20-C251C-Machinist-Tool-Tools-/160818408760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2571862d38)

In case the link gets hoisted over to the Ebay section, they are attachments for a trammel. You are missing the rod or beam.

BT

Seriously Bob,is there anything you don't know. Looks like I am off to buy them today.
Thanks heaps.:2tsup::2tsup:

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Seriously Bob,is there anything you don't know. Looks like I am off to buy them today.
Thanks heaps.:2tsup::2tsup:

Phil

I might know a lot about FA.:no: The older you get the more apparent it becomes. The beam has a continous flat machined along its length to provide alignment.

BT

[Steamwhisperer]

Thanks Bob I will see if it is there. Sometimes they separate stuff.

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Hey Phil,

I tried to find a photo of my Brown and Sharpe trammel before I posted the Ebay link. Found it buried in another thread. The Starrett version looks as equally appealing.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/starrett-planer-shaper-gauge-n0-246-scotland-made-133945/index2.html#post1305416

BT

[Steamwhisperer]

Hey Phil,

I tried to find a photo of my Brown and Sharpe trammel before I posted the Ebay link. Found it buried in another thread. The Starrett version looks as equally appealing.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/starrett-planer-shaper-gauge-n0-246-scotland-made-133945/index2.html#post1305416

BT

Thanks Bob,
my new purchase is an 'N.T.C. No. 350'
Never heard of it. It isn't the plankton of the trammell chain so I am quite happy.
Plus it came with a 6" Moore & Wright square:2tsup:

Phil

[Abratool]

Phil
That was pretty easy...... Trammels.
Ive got a set I purchased about 100 yrs ago :D
They originally came with a short 6" beam.
Made up a longer beam, in Siver steel. Its 3/16th" in dia by 18 inches long.& I ground a flat along its length on the surface grinder.
Still use them, very handy tool.
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

I was looking at the first photo you posted, side by side with the Starrett. There is a number of not too subtle differences. Nice looking bit of gear. The square looks to be in good nick especially for one as old as yours. Been a while since M and W used serifs.

BT

[Log]

There is a small set with a small diameter rod, I'm sure I own one, I'll have to do a search, will be in another box elsewhere.:rolleyes:

Cheers.

[Log]

I'm going mad, maybe madder as I'm already mad:D, I'm sure Anorak Bob just had a post about whether Abratool may have got 3/16" typed in instead of 3/8" for the rod diameter.

Cheers.

[Steamwhisperer]

Phil
That was pretty easy...... Trammels.
Ive got a set I purchased about 100 yrs ago :D
They originally came with a short 6" beam.
Made up a longer beam, in Siver steel. Its 3/16th" in dia by 18 inches long.& I ground a flat along its length on the surface grinder.
Still use them, very handy tool.
regards
Bruce

Hi Bruce,
seems I might have to do the same. Now, to look for a surface grinder:D


I was looking at the first photo you posted, side by side with the Starrett. There is a number of not too subtle differences. Nice looking bit of gear. The square looks to be in good nick especially for one as old as yours. Been a while since M and W used serifs.

BT

Hi Bob,
the square is nearly in perfect condition for it's age. I can't feel or see any nicks or dings. Very happy.

Phil

[Log]

Hi Bruce,
seems I might have to do the same. Now, to look for a surface grinder:D
snip

Phil

Oh Steamwhisperer, you just looking for any excuse for getting a surface grinder:D:D.

I'm a bit dissapointed in you though:p, a keen fella:2tsup: who works on "the hill" amongst all the beautiful and great yesteryear stuff and gear, I thought you'd just nail a piece of rod to a lumpatimber and file that there flat along the rod then draw file it, job done, nerly no expense:2tsup:, not much time either.

Arh, sorry:;, you really wanted an excuse for a surface grinder didn't ya, admit it, admit it:D:roflmao2:

Cheers.

[Abratool]

I'm going mad, maybe madder as I'm already mad:D, I'm sure Anorak Bob just had a post about whether Abratool may have got 3/16" typed in instead of 3/8" for the rod diameter.

Cheers.
Log
I read your post & then thought I was going mad,nutters, even though I had been going to the "Shaper Therapy Sessions" no success there, either.
Anyway just went & measured & yes the rod dia is 3/16th"
My set is not as flash as Bobs, or Phils. Mine are a low priced copy of the Starrett.
Now if Phil lived a bit closer I could surface grind a flat on a piece of 3/16th" dia Silver steel. Phil please check to see if this is the size to suit your Trammels.
I am out of Silver Steel in that size but could get hold of some, grind it & post to you.
My Surface grinder will go to a max length of 18 inches.
Thats 18" not that crazy metric 450mm stuff :U
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

I'm going mad, maybe madder as I'm already mad:D, I'm sure Anorak Bob just had a post about whether Abratool may have got 3/16" typed in instead of 3/8" for the rod diameter.

Cheers.

I deleted that comment along with the photos lest I cause more offence.

[Log]

I deleted that comment along with the photos lest I cause more offence.

Offence? eh, didn't notice you offended anyone.:?

Good to know though that you did remove a post, I can now cancel appointment with therapist:D, I need a tooth filled anyway so can better spend the money there:C.

Cheers.

[Steamwhisperer]

Oh Steamwhisperer, you just looking for any excuse for getting a surface grinder:D:D.

I'm a bit dissapointed in you though:p, a keen fella:2tsup: who works on "the hill" amongst all the beautiful and great yesteryear stuff and gear, I thought you'd just nail a piece of rod to a lumpatimber and file that there flat along the rod then draw file it, job done, nerly no expense:2tsup:, not much time either.

Arh, sorry:;, you really wanted an excuse for a surface grinder didn't ya, admit it, admit it:D:roflmao2:

Cheers.
I swear you have a hidden camera in my house with a direct feed to your house.:D
You have it pretty much spot on. Although I don't think she fell for it:(
Now time to make up a filing jig:2tsup:


Log
I read your post & then thought I was going mad,nutters, even though I had been going to the "Shaper Therapy Sessions" no success there, either.
Anyway just went & measured & yes the rod dia is 3/16th"
My set is not as flash as Bobs, or Phils. Mine are a low priced copy of the Starrett.
Now if Phil lived a bit closer I could surface grind a flat on a piece of 3/16th" dia Silver steel. Phil please check to see if this is the size to suit your Trammels.
I am out of Silver Steel in that size but could get hold of some, grind it & post to you.
My Surface grinder will go to a max length of 18 inches.
Thats 18" not that crazy metric 450mm stuff :U
regards
Bruce

Hi Bruce
I just checked mine and it is 1/4" diameter. I have a piece of 1/4" silver steel 16" long and now I am wondering whether to mail it off to you or hack at it with a file. Or wait until I get a surface grinder (Idoubt the latter is going to happen though)

Phil

[Abratool]

I swear you have a hidden camera in my house with a direct feed to your house.:D
You have it pretty much spot on. Although I don't think she fell for it:(
Now time to make up a filing jig:2tsup:



Hi Bruce
I just checked mine and it is 1/4" diameter. I have a piece of 1/4" silver steel 16" long and now I am wondering whether to mail it off to you or hack at it with a file. Or wait until I get a surface grinder (Idoubt the latter is going to happen though)

Phil
Phil
The 1/4" dia sounds like a better design. I will PM my address to you & if you wish you can mail it to me. I will need to know the distance from the Outside Dia to the flat measured by a micrometer (It probably goes without saying, in inches please)
I can surface grind down to the dimension you advise,with the job mounted on the magnetic table, using a depth micrometer to measure from the ground flat to the table & duplicate the figure you quote me. & return it to you.
If that is acceptable I will PM you in the morning.
This will make the Trammels much more useful.
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

Back to the thread that has caused me so much grief. I am surprised that the beams on the trammels you blokes have are so small. I did think Bruce had typed in the wrong diameter. One of my drawing ( draughting) beam compasses has an extruded 19 x 5 aluminium box section beam. That's only used for drawing lines on paper. I would have thought your beams would be prone to flex. I guess it comes down to how heavy handed you are.

You boys heavy handed? :U

[Steamwhisperer]

Back to the thread that has caused me so much grief. I am surprised that the beams on the trammels you blokes have are so small. I did think Bruce had typed in the wrong diameter. One of my drawing ( draughting) beam compasses has an extruded 19 x 5 aluminium box section beam. That's only used for drawing lines on paper. I would have thought your beams would be prone to flex. I guess it comes down to how heavy handed you are.

You boys heavy handed? :U

Hi Bruce,
PM sent

Hi Bob,
seems we have created a Frankenstein, the monster got out of control:D
Heavy handed you ask, pffft. Personally, when marking out I have all the finesse of a homicidal maniac:wink:. The theory is that all I am doing is scribing a line across some layout stain and not scratching the surface of the steel, so, light pressures are the order of the day.
This is only theory of course:rolleyes:

Phil

[Abratool]

Phil
I just had a closer look at the set I have.
It looks like the same brand as you have. I can only make out an "N" & a "C"
with the number 348 underneath those marks. It has a 3/16th" dia rod with a flat .020" less than the dia of the rod. So that seems similiar to yours.
Over the "hundred" years since I bought it new its had a lot of use.
Particularly for marking out abrasive discs when I was running my business.
So it would not look as pristine as the set you have.
You must be on to a good collectable shop in your area.
It will be no trouble to grind the flat on the rod when you post it to me.
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

You blokes are making long beams. Thinking about mine, having a short beam, say 150 mm long would prove useful. The B&S beam is most probably 300mm in length and has proven unwieldy at times. If the beam diameter is around 8 -10mm, I should be able to flatten the top of a piece of suitable bar in the mill. Finding the suitable bar might be the stumbling block.

BT

[Abratool]

You blokes are making long beams. Thinking about mine, having a short beam, say 150 mm long would prove useful. The B&S beam is most probably 300mm in length and has proven unwieldy at times. If the beam diameter is around 8 -10mm, I should be able to flatten the top of a piece of suitable bar in the mill. Finding the suitable bar might be the stumbling block.

BT
Bob
If you can get hold of some suitable bar then post it over & I will grind the flat on it.
In that dia of 8 or 10mm, BMS should be OK
The Silver Steel is better for the smaller diameters as in 3/16" & a 1/4" because of its stiffness.
Bruce

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
Why so short? at that size whats wrong with a compass or dividers? I only ever used trammels when the compass was maxed out. Though I didnt have a flash set of trammels with fine adjustment. Move vice grips and a gentle tap with a hammer.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Depends on the size of the compass (dividers) you have Stu. I use some neat compasses at work but a compass racked out to draw a large diameter circle has the points angled. On paper they elongate the centre hole. Dividers on steel can skate. I prefer the more vertical approach.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
Fair enough point and having thought about it a little more while reading your post, really my compass in bigger sizes it a half compass/half tram(I'm sure you know what I mean but I'll include a picture for others that might not). Its a bit of a juggle and at certain sizes you cant get both points vertical.

Stuart

[Ueee]

Hi BT,
Fair enough point and having thought about it a little more while reading your post, really my compass in bigger sizes it a half compass/half tram(I'm sure you know what I mean but I'll include a picture for others that might not). Its a bit of a juggle and at certain sizes you cant get both points vertical.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,
I use one of those to, but i find it too easy for the "knee" in the legs to move. My set is pretty old and solid too (older than me anyway), i'd hate to think of what it would be like with a newer cheaper version.

[Anorak Bob]

Hi BT,
Fair enough point and having thought about it a little more while reading your post, really my compass in bigger sizes it a half compass/half tram(I'm sure you know what I mean but I'll include a picture for others that might not). Its a bit of a juggle and at certain sizes you cant get both points vertical.

Stuart

The final couple of photos here are of my daily user. http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/starrett-planer-shaper-gauge-n0-246-scotland-made-133945/index3.html#post1306445 The pen holder swivels. It was designed to accommodate ink filled technical pens that work best perpendicular to the drawing board. The Wild compasses, while being works of art, can't hold a candle to the robust Rotring ratcheting bow when repeatability is an issue. Like your compass Stu, mine have extension arms.

BT

[Stustoys]

HI BT,
I was sure they would Bob, wouldn't be many here with more drawing gear than you, none that I recall seeing with more ability to use said gear. I have exactly one "ink filled technical pens", we used umm "technical textas" I guess you'd call them. Though now I'm back to lead and colored clutch pencils when I bother.

Whats this for? I assume its for small circles but I'm not understanding the adjustments near the top.

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

HI BT,
I was sure they would Bob, wouldn't be many here with more drawing gear than you, none that I recall seeing with more ability to use said gear. I have exactly one "ink filled technical pens", we used umm "technical textas" I guess you'd call them. Though now I'm back to lead and colored clutch pencils when I bother.

Whats this for? I assume its for small circles but I'm not understanding the adjustments near the top.

Stuart

That isn't an adjuster Stu, simply a knurled disc by which the pen is raised and lowered delicately. With a suitably small nib it would be possible to draw maybe a millimetre diameter circle then another 1.2mm dia. circle concentric to it and on and on. Been a long time since I have used it. Sadly.

My technical texta is the Artline 220. I've been using Artlines for the last 12 years.

BT

[rodm]

Bob,
Being a Cartographer in a previous life don't textas bleed under a rule?
The Rotring has a small step with the ink coming out the end which prevented this.
Then again in your field smudged lines might be accepted as artistic value. :)

[Metalman]

This is my late fathers set of trammels, he was a sheet metal worker and bought these new a long time ago. They still have the original wax paper wrapping on some of the points. I use them occasionally, they are very useful for marking out when cobbling up something inferior would be time wasting and frustrating.
Mm.

[Anorak Bob]

This is my late fathers set of trammels, he was a sheet metal worker and bought these new a long time ago. They still have the original wax paper wrapping on some of the points. I use them occasionally, they are very useful for marking out when cobbling up something inferior would be time wasting and frustrating.
Mm.

That is a superb set Phillip. Stainless steel is something I would have associated more with Swiss and Japanese gear than that of English origin. The mahogany case and the restrained gold lettering add to the aura.

Bob.

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
"With a suitably small nib" and a suitably skilled operator. Great stuff.


Hi rodm,
The textas we are talking about have a steel point which I think is the same shape as the Rotring(I'd try and dig mine out but I'm sure BT will know for sure).

Great looking set MM

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Bob,
Being a Cartographer in a previous life don't textas bleed under a rule?
The Rotring has a small step with the ink coming out the end which prevented this.
Then again in your field smudged lines might be accepted as artistic value. :)

Ah Ha. It's falling into place young Rod. I had wondered where that sense of proportion and the eye for appropriate lettering and fonts had come from.

As for the pretend drawing instruments, bleeding isn't an issue because I draw on tracing paper. It's funny you mention the smudging. At my first job in an architect's office back in '84 (started late), there was a fantastic old bloke who drew in pencil. By the time he had finished an A1 drawing the page was nearly uniform grey, the result of him smearing the lead with his arms and his tee square. He wore crisp white shirts, crisp and white in the morning, covered in lead when he went home. The old bugger drove home in a Maserati.




Hi BT,
"With a suitably small nib" and a suitably skilled operator. Great stuff.


Hi rodm,
The textas we are talking about have a steel point which I think is the same shape as the Rotring(I'd try and dig mine out but I'm sure BT will know for sure).

Great looking set MM

Stuart

Stu. I'm looking at a 0.2mm Artline 220. The tip projects about 0.5mm beyond the 1mm dia. x 5mm long stylus (?). Pretty much like a Rotring Isograph. I liked Isographs because they had refillable cartridges. Still clogged up like every other pen in the olden days.
How come you have used this stuff?

BT

[Steamwhisperer]

Nice set of trammells MM.:2tsup:
Is there any chance of a pic of the different styles wrapped in the wax paper Just so I can make them. No drama if you don't want to unwrap them.

Phil

[Metalman]

Phil, will post some pictures of unwrapped points over the weekend with some dimensions of parts.
Regards, Mm.

[Steamwhisperer]

Phil, will post some pictures of unwrapped points over the weekend with some dimensions of parts.
Regards, Mm.

Much appreciated MM.

Phil

[Stustoys]

A long time a go I learnt engineering drawing only allowed to use one stinking pencil! like a real wood pencil, 2H I think it was! they made different hardnesses for a reason.(not sure I'm over that yet lol). Then some electrical drawing. Then solid geometry, pattern development and a tiny amount of tracing paper work(the UV photo paper transfer stuff).
None to your level though and mostly forgotten or not much use to me(how often does one need to work out true lengths?). I do have two rolls of tracing paper in the shed to go with my parallel arm drawing broad. I hardly ever use it, and the skill certainly fades.

Stuart

p.s. I'm not even 100% sure I'm using the correct names lol

[jackaroo]

Sorry Steamwhisperer (http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/70997-steamwhisperer/),

Instead of creating another thread with the same title, I just hijack your thread. I hope you dont mind.

I picked this up in the lot from the auction with other bits. Does anyone know what its and how to use it?

Thanks
Trong

The end is broken
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/lathe/DSC08047.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/lathe/DSC08050.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/lathe/DSC08048.jpg

[Steamwhisperer]

No worries Trong,
Actually it's not a bad idea using this thread.

Phil

[Michael G]

Looks like it would be some sort of gang drilling head - 1 input split into 4 outputs.

Michael

[Stustoys]

Hi Trong,

I'd say it was a multi spindle drill. If you undo the nylocks you'll be able to rotate the "chucks"* to change the hole pattern. There should be a torque bar somewhere. The tang being broken shouldnt matter.

Stuart

* I assume they are some sort of collet chuck?

[Log]

Actually the torque bar (or at least some of it) looks like it's still there bolted to the top and curves around the top then goes down to the stool(?) cushion.

The broken tang wouldn't be hard to fix anyway.

Cheers.

[jackaroo]

Thanks all,

I just quickly looked at it again and it does look like the gang drilling head. that 4 "little chucks" do spin at once. I think the sleeves are missing?

Stuart is right about the nylocks

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/jackaroo75/lathe/IMG_20120616_200035.jpg

Trong

[Steamwhisperer]

Is it like this
http://www.ctl-centreline.com/newpdfs/Centinal30Range.pdf

Phil

[jackaroo]

Thanks Phil

[rodm]

Ah Ha. It's falling into place young Rod. I had wondered where that sense of proportion and the eye for appropriate lettering and fonts had come from.

As for the pretend drawing instruments, bleeding isn't an issue because I draw on tracing paper. It's funny you mention the smudging. At my first job in an architect's office back in '84 (started late), there was a fantastic old bloke who drew in pencil. By the time he had finished an A1 drawing the page was nearly uniform grey, the result of him smearing the lead with his arms and his tee square. He wore crisp white shirts, crisp and white in the morning, covered in lead when he went home. The old bugger drove home in a Maserati.

BT

This is a bit OT but going down memory lane is healthy because I can remember. :)

I am lerft handed and they tried to convert me to right handed becasue of the ink. For the first three months we did copy book with a crow quill nib on tracing paper. You know the drill thin up strokes and thick down. I wasn't interested in changing to right hand so I developed a round arm left handed approach. Had to be careful on colder days not to drag the rolled up sleeve across the work. Would you believe ties were compulsary as well. :((

Brass parallel rules and a large protractor printed on transparent paper were used to convert the survey to a plan. No drawing machines just a large flat drafting table with a slot in the front. All ink work was noir and colour was a water based brush wash. A surgical scalpel was used to remove the existing drawing - a swan 23 from memory.

After we completed the three months they gave us Rotrings which was a vast improvement but ammending old plans still required the crow quill.
It's probably CAD and GIS now and I doubt they even use ink. How technology changes things - for the better.

[Anorak Bob]

This is a bit OT but going down memory lane is healthy because I can remember. :)




Now you are just showing off ! :roll:

When my youngest brother was at kindergarten, my mother received a letter from the teacher suggesting he was dull. He demonstrated a severe difficulty in handling scissors right handed. Didn't occur to them that he might have been a leftie. Turned out he isn't dull. PhD in electronic engineering.

I use the Swann Morton No 10 blade. Never got the hang of razor blades or the larger radius scalpel blades like the 23.

Times change Rod but I've still got a tenacious grip on yesteryear.:U

B"Ned"T

[rodm]

Now you are just showing off ! :roll:

When my youngest brother was at kindergarten, my mother received a letter from the teacher suggesting he was dull. He demonstrated a severe difficulty in handling scissors right handed. Didn't occur to them that he might have been a leftie. Turned out he isn't dull. PhD in electronic engineering.

I use the Swann Morton No 10 blade. Never got the hang of razor blades or the larger radius scalpel blades like the 23.

Times change Rod but I've still got a tenacious grip on yesteryear.:U

B"Ned"T

Yeah I am showing off remembering that but there is at lot of memory lost between then and now and what happened an hour ago forget it. I walk out to the shed and forget why I went out there. :-
Yeah scissors are still a problem for me - I use them upside down. Lefties do adapt to the right handed world though.
My mistakes were probably larger than yours hense the 23 and yeah Swann Morton is correct - I didn't get that right.

[Ueee]

Thanks for the entertaining read Rod and BT.:)
We had 3 lefties working for us at one stage, and i thought i would do the right thing and get some left handed scissors. The girls hated them, they were too used to right handed ones! I have problems with most scissors because my hands are big and my thumb gets stuck it them.....

When i was working as a cabinetmaker we used to draw all our jobs out full size on MDF sheets on the floor. It was a horrible job, it didn't matter on the pen, the fine dust would soon make it "bloby" Give me ink and pencil smears over sore knee's and worn out boot toes any day!

[rodm]

Hi Ewan,
I like to think that lefties are part of the evolution of man - you'll all be lefties in another life. :)
I've seen cabinetmakers marking out a kitchen like that and using a story stick. These days with modular units out of China I suppose that is changing too.

[Ueee]

Hi Ewan,
I like to think that lefties are part of the evolution of man - you'll all be lefties in another life. :)
I've seen cabinetmakers marking out a kitchen like that and using a story stick. These days with modular units out of China I suppose that is changing too.

Hi Rod,
Even 10 years ago i would guess we would be one of a very small number of shops that didn't use CAD generated cutting lists and even direct CAD to CNC machines. The worst part about China, even then, was we could order a custom kitchen, Granite tops etc, have it arrive flat packed in about a month all for less than the materials here.
The best bit about hand drawings and being in a small shop was seeing a job through, from the first meeting with the customer to delivery, no going to any 3rd party or even another worker in the shop.

My wife has a "thing" about lefties....those 3 staff members all did us wrong in one way or another so i thing that may have effected her view.

Maybe you need to open a "leftporium" with BT and cover the west side of Aus......:D

[Ueee]

B"Ned"T

LOL!! i only just got this after my leftporium comment.....:doh:

[rodm]

Ewan,
You are smarter than me - I'm still getting it. :-

Tell your wife more crime and murders (even with scissors) are committed by right handed people. :D

C'on Bob you will have to help out if you are going drop subtle ones in.

[Anorak Bob]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Luddite.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Luddite.jpg)

[Big Shed]

Phew, for a minute there I thought you were referring to this

Urban Dictionary: ned (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ned)

[rodm]

Aaah the penny drops.

[Anorak Bob]

Phew, for a minute there I thought you were referring to this

Urban Dictionary: ned (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ned)

Just as well I'm of Welsh/English forebears Fred. Just as well I'm 59. Wouldn't want anyone mistaking me for a ned ! :no:

[rodm]

Bob,
You're not a ned
but
at 59 doesn't that put you in your 60th year?
If you saw me at the moment you would think well into 90's as I'm covered in cement dust and grumpy as heck because the easy part of lifting the flooring has now turned into a nightmare - glued down. :((
Time for a beer and some deep thought.

[Log]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Luddite.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Luddite.jpg)

Arr huh, blue dress:D, you might be able to borrow a pair of rodm's "double plugger" dress thongs:happyb::roflmao2:

Cheers.

[Metalman]

In post 36 Phil (Steamwhisperer) asked for a pic of the points from my trammel set so here it is. The one on the extreme left is a piece of HSS that I sharpened to an angled blade for cutting paper etc. The container on the right is for spare leads.
Point shaft dia. is 5/32" (4mm). The trammel beams are 1/4" (6.35mm) dia. and the size across the flat of the beam shaft is 6mm. There are two beams 14" long and a joining piece.
Mm.

[Steamwhisperer]

Just what I needed MM.
Much appreciated.

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Phillip B,

What do you reckon, from the left, 1, 8 and 11 are intended for?

Bob T

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Bob,
I am up early so I thought I would give this a go before Phil B.:D
I could be wrong but 1 is the one MM made to cut paper, 8 is the one that holds the leads like a pencil and 11 is the spare leads container.

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Hi Bob,
I am up early so I thought I would give this a go before Phil B.:D
I could be wrong but 1 is the one MM made to cut paper, 8 is the one that holds the leads like a pencil and 11 is the spare leads container.

Phil

With all the talk about draughting I never even considered that Phillip's trammel could have been used in the drawing office, had I read Phillip's last post thoroughly I would have known.:doh: The stepped centre would have been for paper, maintaining a small hole.

BT

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
Thats ok, I'm wondering what 3 and 4 are for? Though I'm pretty sure I've seen them before, I cant remember what they are for.:(

Stuart

[Anorak Bob]

Bit like outside caliper legs Stu. I have a few catalogues at home that will shed some light on their intended use. I like the cone centre. A pair would be handy for measuring hole centre spacing. Some manufacturers made hemispherical fittings to facilitate picking up the centre of a hole. I'll post a photo or two from a catalogue.

BT

[Metalman]

Hello Phil. Bob and Stuart,
I would be interested in the uses of 3 and 4 as well, I suspect they are for turning the trammels into a large set of callipers.
Mm (Phillip B)

[Anorak Bob]

The range of attachments offered by Starrett for their metal beam trammels is limited but the wooden beam version is available with curved leg calipers. One even has a fine adjuster.

Product Detail (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail?k=59F)

Not much in the way of enlightenment here. Below are a few pages from a 1938 Starrett catalogue along with a page from Brown and Sharpe's catalogue of 1952. It is interesting to see Starrett offering a pen attachment, a delicate thing to have on such a tool.

Hey Rod, did you ever use ruling pens?

BT

[Metalman]

Bob, thanks for posting the catalogue pages, some of the designs are obviously similar to the set I have. A statement in one catalogue mentions 'measuring' so this is probably where the caliper points are used.
Mm, Phililp B.

[Stustoys]

Hi BT,
Thanks for the pictures.

Stuart

[Steamwhisperer]

Thanks Bob,
I have a feeling these trammells might get a bit more of a workout than I first thought. I do my machining with calipers at work so everything is as a comparitor rather than direct measurement.
This should be fun:oo:

Phil

[Steamwhisperer]

Here is the B&S trammell
213086

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

Here is the B&S trammell
213086

Phil

Mine is the 845. Sadly, it was purchased without any accessories. It would be nice to complete the set including the case but I could spend the rest of my days looking.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/167467d1303094276-starrett-planer-shaper-gauge-n0-246-scotland-made-b-s-002-large-.jpg

[Anorak Bob]

Phil
The 1/4" dia sounds like a better design. I will PM my address to you & if you wish you can mail it to me. I will need to know the distance from the Outside Dia to the flat measured by a micrometer (It probably goes without saying, in inches please)
I can surface grind down to the dimension you advise,with the job mounted on the magnetic table, using a depth micrometer to measure from the ground flat to the table & duplicate the figure you quote me. & return it to you.
If that is acceptable I will PM you in the morning.
This will make the Trammels much more useful.
regards
Bruce

Bruce,

I measured the beam this morning. It is 5/16" in diameter. I have found some silver steel in England - Silver Steel 5/16in Silver Steel 13in Length | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Silver-Steel-5-16in-Silver-Steel-13in-Length-/170819456094?pt=AU_HandTools&hash=item27c5a20c5e#shId)

and some stainless steel in the lucky country - STAINLESS ROUND BAR 316 GRADE 7.94MMX 1000MM (5/16) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STAINLESS-ROUND-BAR-316-GRADE-7-94MMX-1000MM-5-16-/370421900981?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Industrial_Supply_MRO&hash=item563edda6b5#shId)

Eeny meeny.. Which one? I'm thinking the 316 may not be magnetic.

BT

[Abratool]

Bruce,

I measured the beam this morning. It is 5/16" in diameter. I have found some silver steel in England - Silver Steel 5/16in Silver Steel 13in Length | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Silver-Steel-5-16in-Silver-Steel-13in-Length-/170819456094?pt=AU_HandTools&hash=item27c5a20c5e#shId)

and some stainless steel in the lucky country - STAINLESS ROUND BAR 316 GRADE 7.94MMX 1000MM (5/16) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STAINLESS-ROUND-BAR-316-GRADE-7-94MMX-1000MM-5-16-/370421900981?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Industrial_Supply_MRO&hash=item563edda6b5#shId)

Eeny meeny.. Which one? I'm thinking the 316 may not be magnetic.

BT
Bob
Perhaps go with the Silver Steel as I may not be able to hold the 316 on the magnetic table of the grinder if you want a flat ground.
regards
Bruce

[Log]

Just to add to the fray, here's a few pics of my Starrett trammel(s?) This is all I got when bought second hand. Nice little set, I wonder what model it is:?.

The beam rod is less than 3/16" diameter, it's 0.160" (4.064mm).

Cheers.

[Log]

Here's a place in Aussie with some old/oldish trammels for sale. Tool Exchange - Trammels (http://toolexchange.com.au/Trammels.html) Apart from the 10% commission I am not connected, nah just kidding:D, there's no connection.

Cheers.

[Anorak Bob]

Just to add to the fray, here's a few pics of my Starrett trammel(s?) This is all I got when bought second hand. Nice little set, I wonder what model it is:?.

The beam rod is less than 3/16" diameter, it's 0.160" (4.064mm).

Cheers.

Here you go Log. Starrett knocked its manufacture on the head sometime between 1938 and 1967, pretty vague I know but I don't have any Starrett catalogues for those intervening years.

[Log]

Here you go Log. Starrett knocked its manufacture on the head sometime between 1938 and 1967, pretty vague I know but I don't have any Starrett catalogues for those intervening years.

Thanks very much:2tsup: for that, I'll have to make myself one of those cone centres and find a little box to keep it all in.

Cheers.

[Steamwhisperer]

Gees, just when you thought there was nothing else you could do with a trammell

Phil

[Steamwhisperer]

I finally got a job finished today.
20 thou came off the 1/4" silver steel for the beam.
Set off to the local supplier to get some 1/8" silver steel and as usual he had every conceivable imperial (and metric) size available except 1/8".I bought a piece of 3.5mm and machined the ends down to 0.125" then machined a 5 deg. taper on the other ends. A quick heat treat to harden the nibs and voila!!

Phil

[Ueee]

Hi Phil,
It may of been a simple job but i bet it feels good to be finished!
Almost looks like you just opened up a new box and unwrapped them from the grease paper. Well done:2tsup:
How many other jobs did you start half way through?....LOL

[Log]

I finally got a job finished today.
20 thou came off the 1/4" silver steel for the beam.
Set off to the local supplier to get some 1/8" silver steel and as usual he had every conceivable imperial (and metric) size available except 1/8".I bought a piece of 3.5mm and machined the ends down to 0.125" then machined a 5 deg. taper on the other ends. A quick heat treat to harden the nibs and voila!!

Phil

Nice finished tool:2tsup:, useable now:D, unlike when it was a "What is this" :D.
Did you have Abratool grind the flat or did you lash at it with a file or two:2tsup::?:D.
Onya if you filed it:2tsup:.

Cheers.

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Phil,
It may of been a simple job but i bet it feels good to be finished!
Almost looks like you just opened up a new box and unwrapped them from the grease paper. Well done:2tsup:
How many other jobs did you start half way through?....LOL

Hi Ewan,
All of my jobs start halfway through otherwise I wouldn't finish a thing :D


Nice finished tool:2tsup:, useable now:D, unlike when it was a "What is this" :D.
Did you have Abratool grind the flat or did you lash at it with a file or two:2tsup::?:D.
Onya if you filed it:2tsup:.

Cheers.

HI Log,
I aint that deft with a file yet. The metal spinner at work has a surface grinder at his house and he keeps pestering me to use it.

Phil

[Log]

Snip,, Ouch!

HI Log,
I aint that deft with a file yet. The metal spinner at work has a surface grinder at his house and he keeps pestering me to use it.

Phil

There's bad pestering :C, then there's good pestering:lbs:, that sounds like good pestering to me, you'll just have to put up with it:laughing1:

Cheers.

[Steamwhisperer]

It's a cross I will have to carry. He has a Bridgeport mill and one of the sweetest Okuma lathes I have seen. He keeps telling me to "just go and use them". How will I cope lol.

Phil

[Steamwhisperer]

Ok, here is another one. It's about 6" long and the rods have a small flat machined into them where they are inserted into the holes. The knurled screws have points machined on the threads which push on pins at right angles to the thread which in turn put pressure on the flats machined on the rods. There are a heap of different length rods in the box. I put the rods in the holes so I could be completely wrong in doing that.

Phil
214135

[Anorak Bob]

I'm stumped. The large through holes don't appear to be evenly spaced suggesting it could be a shop built device. Something devised for some esoteric purpose. Does the cardboard box provide any clues Phil or is that just a case of recycling?

An aside. What happened to that nice green mill?

BT

[Log]

Ok, here is another one. It's about 6" long and the rods have a small flat machined into them where they are inserted into the holes. The knurled screws have points machined on the threads which push on pins at right angles to the thread which in turn put pressure on the flats machined on the rods. There are a heap of different length rods in the box. I put the rods in the holes so I could be completely wrong in doing that.

Phil
214135

Hi Steamwhisperer, You find all the the goodies don't ya:D. I don't know what it is but recon something like that would be handy for setting initial or checking tool height above the table of my metal planer:2tsup::D. There are 5 rod holes so could be set up for checking 5 different tool heights on the same job, one could then use the tool head downfeed graduations to get the required height.

Is it in your possession yet? I wonder if the rods are a discrete length like 6", 7" etc. For specific purposes, rods could be made up to required length/s. I'm presuming the rods go right through to the table.

Cheers.

[Log]

Looking at it again, maybe two? rods fit at a time, maybe 3 if the hole on the right hand end can take a rod:?. My confusion is understandable, I'm usually confused by unknowniums:D:rolleyes:, well actually knowniums as well:laughing1::doh:

Cheers.

[Abratool]

Ok, here is another one. It's about 6" long and the rods have a small flat machined into them where they are inserted into the holes. The knurled screws have points machined on the threads which push on pins at right angles to the thread which in turn put pressure on the flats machined on the rods. There are a heap of different length rods in the box. I put the rods in the holes so I could be completely wrong in doing that.

Phil
214135
Phil
I have spent this morning scraping a cast iron surface plate, & this unkown thing you purchased has been on my mind. A lot of time to think on these scraping jobs, good therapy.:cool:
Most times I can identify these unkown tools but this one has got me stumped.:no:
Just as a matter of interest is it hardened & ground ?
It looks like some "Tooleys" invention.
regards
Bruce

[Stustoys]

Hi Phil,
How many rods are there? How long are they? Are the ends flat?

And they say I buy some strange stuff!

Stuart

Though on a side note, what does a man with a vaccum cleaner with two motors need? You guessed it! So I'm set for vaccum cleaners. :D

[Anorak Bob]

Hi Phil,
How many rods are there? How long are they? Are the ends flat?

And they say I buy some strange stuff!

Stuart

Though on a side note, what does a man with a vaccum cleaner with two motors need? You guessed it! So I'm set for vaccum cleaners. :D

Been Nilfisking have you Stu?

[Steamwhisperer]

I'm stumped. The large through holes don't appear to be evenly spaced suggesting it could be a shop built device. Something devised for some esoteric purpose. Does the cardboard box provide any clues Phil or is that just a case of recycling?

An aside. What happened to that nice green mill?

BT
HI Bob,
Sadly the box is a classic case of recycling and gives me no clues at all.
On Wednesday, the 4th of July, yep, 2 days from now, I will be hooking the tandem up to the back of the ute and driving to Horsham and bringing back a very nice Dormac. Woo Hoo:D


Hi Steamwhisperer, You find all the the goodies don't ya:D. I don't know what it is but recon something like that would be handy for setting initial or checking tool height above the table of my metal planer:2tsup::D. There are 5 rod holes so could be set up for checking 5 different tool heights on the same job, one could then use the tool head downfeed graduations to get the required height.

Is it in your possession yet? I wonder if the rods are a discrete length like 6", 7" etc. For specific purposes, rods could be made up to required length/s. I'm presuming the rods go right through to the table.

Cheers.
Hi Log,
hmm, like a poor mans shaper and planer gauge. The rods don't go right through but there is a small spring in the hole making the rods spring loaded. Unsure whether the rods are a set length


Phil
I have spent this morning scraping a cast iron surface plate, & this unkown thing you purchased has been on my mind. A lot of time to think on these scraping jobs, good therapy.:cool:
Most times I can identify these unkown tools but this one has got me stumped.:no:
Just as a matter of interest is it hardened & ground ?
It looks like some "Tooleys" invention.
regards
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I would say it is hardened and ground

Phil

[Steamwhisperer]

Hi Phil,
How many rods are there? How long are they? Are the ends flat?

And they say I buy some strange stuff!

Stuart

Though on a side note, what does a man with a vaccum cleaner with two motors need? You guessed it! So I'm set for vaccum cleaners. :D
Hi Stuart,
I haven't bought it yet but no doubt I will be. Even if it is just to measure the lengths and and see if the ends are flat or radiused:D. I might even grab the Starrett 1' to 2' micrometer as well as it has the vernier scale on the barrell. :2tsup:

Phil

[Anorak Bob]

HI Bob,
Sadly the box is a classic case of recycling and gives me no clues at all.
On Wednesday, the 4th of July, yep, 2 days from now, I will be hooking the tandem up to the back of the ute and driving to Horsham and bringing back a very nice Dormac. Woo Hoo:D


Phil


http://www.desmoines-classifieds.com/Warren-County-/Automotive-/Dormac-univeral-horizontal-milling-machine-vertical-hd-adimage.jpg

FU 120 or FU 150?

[Abratool]

http://www.desmoines-classifieds.com/Warren-County-/Automotive-/Dormac-univeral-horizontal-milling-machine-vertical-hd-adimage.jpg

FU 120 or FU 150?
Phil This is just "Too Good"
Do not worry about the hardened & ground unknown thingo. we communicated about.
You will have plenty to play with when you get this beauty.
Even if you dont use it, you could just walk around it with an oily cloth, wiping it down & drooling over it. Solid as a rock !!! Well done:2tsup:
regards
Bruce

[Anorak Bob]

Phil This is just "Too Good"
Do not worry about the hardened & ground unknown thingo. we communicated about.
You will have plenty to play with when you get this beauty.
Even if you dont use it, you could just walk around it with an oily cloth, wiping it down & drooling over it. Solid as a rock !!! Well done:2tsup:
regards
Bruce


Hey Bruce, It might be right colour but it might not be the right mill. I lifted the photo from Google images because it was green. :U

BT