LPG heating torches

[shedhappens]

I spat the dummy a few months back and returned BOC their oxy and acetylene bottle's, I wasn't using them much anymore and I got sick of paying the rental fee's. I hardly ever oxy weld anymore and for cutting I bought a cheep chinko 80amp plasma cutter, but I still need to silver solder sometimes and I need to heat stubborn things to get them to bits and maybe the odd unprofessional hardening job.

I know LPG without oxy has less heat but I don't wanna keep paying rental on bottles, I would rather wait a bit longer for something to get hot.

I was thinking about something like one of these GAS BLOW TORCH COMPLETE ROOFING KIT HOSE REGULATOR | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GAS-BLOW-TORCH-COMPLETE-ROOFING-KIT-HOSE-REGULATOR-/400193472737?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item5d2d63c8e1)

Has anyone here used these or similar in the workshop ?

What are your thoughts ?

Has anyone here made their own LPG heating torch ?

john

[Trackhappy]

I have something similar but with cyclone burners. They are great for doing copper pipe etc with silver solder. The main drawback is that the heat is very widespread. With oxy you can very quickly heat a small area to welding temp before it spreads very far, whereas with these it takes longer and the heat has more time to spread into the surrounding metal. Naturally they are not as hot either so brazing is more difficult.
Still useful and run off a barbecue bottle. Don't make the mistake of using the supplied regulator on your barbecue though... it'l blow the seals out.
Edit, if you need a little more heat you can get the Bernzomatic unit. They have a "Mapp gas" which burns somewhat hotter I gather.

Excerpt from Wikipedia:
MAPP gas is also used in combustion with air for brazing and soldering, where it has considerable advantages over competing propane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane) fuel due to its high combustion temperature of 2,020 °C (3,670 °F)in Air.

[pipeclay]

I use one of these from www.sievert (http://www.<b>sievert</b>).com.au Pro 86 Torch Kit and Harris Regulator somewhere around $100.00.
I find it does what I want.

[jack620]

Here's a link to pipeclay's torch that works:

Sievert Web Site - Products Catalogue (http://www.sievert.com.au/index.php?p=system&bid=13)

I bumped into a plumber today who said Reece sell a MAPP torch that comes with a disposable oxy bottle. Might be handy when you want that extra bit of heat. Apparently the bottle costs about $40. I gather the oxy doesn't last very long though.

[Alby123]

Just wondering shedhappens, I would have thought you might have gone down the path of oxy-LPG. Firstly you only pay rental on the oxy bottle, secondly you only drop 400 degrees C, where as with LPG the temp. is 1300 degrees C.
Regarding the hand piece, I'm not sure if you are able to use the oxy-acetylene hand piece when using LPG instead of acetylene.

[shedhappens]

Trackhappy, thanks for the info, I have got some oxy/LPG cutting tip's and used them quite a bit a few years ago but I don't want to rent the bottles anymore, except for argon. I have used my son's MAPP gas but it's too small, it's ok on copper pipes but not enough BTU's for me

pipeclay and jack620 thanks for the tip on sievert, I have looked at them, pricey but if they work I will definitely consider.

pipeclay could you give me a bit more info please on the Pro 86 Torch, an evaluation of it's performance, eg can you heat up and bend 20mm rod ? what are it's limit's ?

Alby123 it's no worries using LPG through a commet 3 torch, when I used LPG for cutting years ago all I did was I changed the LH thread nut on the acetylene gauge to one that suited the LPG bottle and used the 2 part fluted LPG gas cutting tip's. It was slower but much cheeeeper cutting.

[pipeclay]

Havent tried it on 20mm but have bent the occasional piece of 12 and 16mm.
I think that you might have to source a slightly smaller head or make something up so as to try and localise the heat a bit more for 20mm,
Cant remember but I think the one that comes with the kit is 32mm.

[Acco]

I know it isn't exactly the ideal solution, but I always have oxy/acet in the shed and you're welcome to use it if you buy a straight gas rig and need that extra bit

[shedhappens]

Thanks for offer Acco, I have all the oxy gear and I'm not getting rid of it, just the bottles, if I get a job where I need it I'll just price it into the job and get some D's or E's for the job, not that I'm expecting to, getting to worn out for heavy work.

pipeclay the sievert torch looks good, plenty of different burners for it too,

[Acco]

No worries, on another note, I got those centres last week, haven't checked to see how hard they are yet, but I'll get onto it soon :2tsup:

[shedhappens]

No worries, on another note, I got those centres last week, haven't checked to see how hard they are yet, but I'll get onto it soon :2tsup:

no prob's Acco, sing out when/if yer ready

john

[nearnexus]

I've got one of these LPG torches and they work very well.

Bullfinch 404 Autotorch Brazing Gas Blow Torch Kit | Buy Now at gasproducts.co.uk (http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Bullfinch_404_Autotorch_Brazing_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit.html)

These will easily hard bronze braze up to about 1 inch diameter steel.

I originally borrowed the Bro-inlaws as he never used it, and was so impressed that I bought my own.

Much better than MAP gas and cheap cheap to run.

I previously had an Oxyset but also got rid of it because of the bottle rental cost.

Try and sell your oxy gear - no one wants them and you will get peanuts for it.

The Bullfinch gun works great and it's handy for hard bronze brazing all sorts of small stuff, like carbide tips on cutters and building up small steel model engine parts, repairing linkages etc.

I have gone up to much bigger bronze brazing jobs with it by using another bigger general purpose LPG torch, together with the Bullfinch, and if that's not enough you can also use the guns in a brick hearth to concentrate the heat.

The bro-inlaw got his Bullfinch at a farm field day and I got mine later from the only (same) distributor in Australia which happens to be at Mt Barker near me (Adelaide).

EH Cambridge (http://www.ehcambridge.com.au/default.aspx?cp=home&rp=homeLinks)

Worth the money.

Rob

[eskimo]

mapp is the only way to go if you dont have oxy/acet

burns hotter than lpg

But the equipment has limitations...ie silver soldering (15%) cu to cu limit is about 1.125" in still air...if breezy then you need to shield...1" and below I have no problems

[nearnexus]

That's incorrect with these new generation LPG guns.

These are NOT your old Primus type guns.

These specialty LPG guns WILL do hard bronze braze and not just silver solder.

I saw the Bullfinch gun demonstrated at a farm field day and was sold on it.

It can't match oxy on size of job (ie big stuff) but it will easily hard bronze

And as I said, it's MUCH better than MAP gas.

I bought one - so I know what I'm talking about.

[eskimo]

[QUOTE=nearnexus;1510912]so I know what I'm talking about.[/QUOT

Your say so is not convincing me, and while your entitled to your opinion may I suggest we both check our facts..maybe wikipedia has some information ???

I note that your link says 1200C...wonder what temp mapp burns at with air?

[Big Shed]

Here you go

MAPP gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAPP_gas)

[eskimo]

heres mapp gas in air

MAPP gas is also used in combustion with air for brazing and soldering, where it has considerable advantages over competing propane (http://www.ask.com/wiki/Propane?qsrc=3044) fuel due to its high combustion temperature of 2,020 °C (3,670 °F)in Air.

now to find LPG with air...not oxygen.

[nearnexus]

The second column from the left is the type of propane burner we are talking about.

As I said before it is NOT your standard old type propane burner.

[nearnexus]

Here's a couple of pictures of what we're talking about.

Some quick and dirty lathe boring bars done with the gun.

And the gun itself - which from memory cost about $220.

Here's a quote from the EH Cambridge site : "The autotorch brazing system is a major advance in propane-air torch design. It is a portable bronze brazing system using only a single cylinder or propane. Other features include automatic piezo-electric ignition, interchangeable burners, specially designed brazing regulator, three highly efficient burners."

I only got one type of burner nozzle when I bought mine over ten years ago, but it's the same gun.

It does what it says.

[eskimo]

so I know what I'm talking about.

IMO.....no you dont.!!..:D

I've done my homework and I put it to you that Mapp Gas burns hotter with gas to air mix than propane.

[Stustoys]

Hi eskimo,
While map is undoubtedly hotter, isn't it more a question of
A. Is LPG hot enough for the purpose
B. which torch deliverers more btu per hour.

After all oxy/acetylene is hotter again and that isnt always a good thing for soldering or brazing.

If LPG will do the job its going to be cheaper than map.

I've never used map and never used LPG for anything other than heat.

Stuart

[eskimo]

B. which torch deliverers more btu per hour.



yes your right
I think you find that mapp delivers more also...

and yes mapp is dearer, but when your charging for labour, and time is money, it is more economical for the client to use mapp

(and at my rates they are a lot better off :D )

[Cliff Rogers]

The Bulfinch 440 can sure put out some heat.


http://www.bullfinch-gas.co.uk/images/stories/bgeautobrtechdata.jpg


This is the only MAPP Gas torch that I can find that gets anywhere near it & even the Bullfinch 340 puts out more BTUs.
Trigger Start Torch - Torch and Torch Kits - Gas Welding - 3DPX3 : Grainger Industrial Supply (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/BERNZOMATIC-Trigger-Start-Torch-3DPX3)

[nearnexus]

Thank you Cliff :)

I've used standard MAPP gas burners and the Bullfinch side by side on copper plumbing jobs and while they do similar jobs, the Bullfinch is much better in windy conditions.

Also the big benefit is the cost of the gas is peanuts compared to MAPP.

The Bullfinch chews through the LPG, and needs to operate off of a 9kg bottle, which is something plumbers may not like to lug around.

Plumbers can just pass on the cost of the MAPP to the customer, so they may not rush out and buy a Bullfinch.

BUT, for people like farmers and tradesmen/hobbyists who don't care about that aspect (having a had large oxy set previously) the LPG unit is compact, plenty hot enough for bronze, and costs about $28 for refill which will last a very very long time.

It beats MAPP hands down IMO.

These guns are regularly demonstrated at farm field days. EH Cambridge send them all over Oz. Farmers are notoriously tight fisted with $$$s and to be bought by those guys, raised on oxy, the product has to be damn good.

Which it is.

[eskimo]

Rothenberger claim 1970C for Surefire 2 and 2020C temps for the Surefire 3...(I just rang them 02 9899 7577)

if we go by the link that nearnexus posted that Bullfire only gets to 1200 tops? so if Rothenberger aint telling porkies I'd be inclined to accept the reality that Mapp is hotter?

however I am open for correction..meaning I would have to eat my words if someone can show me otherwise.

if we look at the Grainger link that Cliff posted, that burner appears to be able to use either propane or mapp.....and the tech data info on it gives flame temp in F ... "MAPP Temp 3650" (2027C) & "Propane Temp 3400" (1888C).

But as one can see, burner design/size also has an effect ...1200C for the Bullfire on propane and 1888C Bernzomatic

its getting confusing...so I'll agree with Nearnexus that we both dont know what we are talking about...well no exactly anyway

[nearnexus]

I never said I don't know what I'm talking about.

I do however know from personal experience of having owned and used oxy, MAPP, and the Bullfinch how they each perform.

I couldn't care less about debates on flame temperatures etc.

It comes down to how well they operate in the field - and from my experience the BullFinch is worth every cent of the significant price it is.

The main benefit is that the Bullfinch is very cheap cheap cheap to run -as per my original post. Also those damn MAPP bottles aren't always running out when you want to use them.

They both can do similar jobs, I never said one was hotter than the other, but I did say the Bullfinch was better - IMHO as a cost effective and excellent replacement for oxy.

Which is what the OP was asking about.

[Vernonv]

The main benefit is that the Bullfinch is very cheap cheap cheap to run -as per my original post. Also those damn MAPP bottles aren't always running out when you want to use them.I'm not sure consumable cost is really an issue between LPG and MAPP (it is however between oxy and the other two, because of gas rental).

I used to use LPG a lot (for many, many years) and never had an issue with the cost i.e. it's cheap and a bottle lasts ages. In the last few years I switched to MAPP (which I personally think is better than LPG, but let's not get into that) and again cost is not an issue i.e. it's cheap and the bottles last for ages.

I find MAPP to be the winner for me. It runs hotter, is more portable and like LPG is cheap to run.

[Michael G]

You guys are forgetting it's not only about temperature, it's about the amount of heat generated - a big burner on a stove can boil water a lot quicker than a small one. (Can anyone tell that I'm cooking pasta for tea?). Temperature only dictates how quickly heat will transfer.
If the Bullfinch needs a 9kg cylinder chances are it chews through the gas and so is pumping more kW into the job than MAPP is.
I use MAPP myself but have sometimes had to sit jobs on a camp gas stove to get things hot enough.

Michael

(This is an interesting discussion but please don't start making it personal - there are other forums for that)

[nearnexus]

I totally with you agree on both counts :)

Yes, you can have a very hot small flame and it won't supply enough heat to do the job, same as a very big flame with a soft heat won't do it either.

Flame temperasture is only part of the story - you also need volume.

As I said earlier, I sometimes use the Bullfinch with extra backup from my old regular lower temperature (paint stripper type) Primus gun to preheat and up the anti to deal with bigger than recommended bronze brazing jobs.

And if that's not enough then you add a simple 4 or 5 red brick hearth.

For hard bronze brazing anything bigger than say 1" solid or thin sheet stuff you need something bigger then MAPP or new generation LPG/Bullfinch.

The Colt LPG/oxy kits look to be the way to go, and at least you cut your bottle rental in half by only having the O2 bottle to get ripped off on.

I've not used one of these kits, so I'm not qualified to say how they compare to Oxy/Acet , but they should be pretty capable given the O2 component.

Maybe someone who's actually used one can enlighten us on how they perform ?

[shedhappens]

Thanks for the input fellas, good to see a few BTU's pumping into the thread, :U I hadn't come across the Bullfinch in my search over the weekend, it looks and sounds pretty good and nearnexus has compared to other torches as well, I reckon if you paid 200 + bucks for a gas torch and it didn't light your smoke then nearnexus would've told us that.

At the moment I'm waiting for more details on propane torches that also connect to the compressed air.
I haven't heard of them before ? But they sound interesting.

Perkeo - Made in Germany: PERKEO Propane-compressed air heating, brazing and melting outfit KLEIN RISTA (http://perkeo-werk.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/productsp1_218.htm&lastopened=15)

Model 89-3 | The Harris Products Group (http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Equipment/Torches/Heating-Assemblies/Model-89-3.aspx)

[Cliff Rogers]

...

At the moment I'm waiting for more details on propane torches that also connect to the compressed air.
I haven't heard of them before ? But they sound interesting.

Perkeo - Made in Germany: PERKEO Propane-compressed air heating, brazing and melting outfit KLEIN RISTA (http://perkeo-werk.com/cms/website.php?id=/en/productsp1_218.htm&lastopened=15)

Model 89-3 | The Harris Products Group (http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Equipment/Torches/Heating-Assemblies/Model-89-3.aspx)
130,000 BTU with propane. Strewth.... :oo:

[Ueee]

Hi John,
I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I am in the same boat, love my oxy, hate the $$$$$$ Boc charges for rental:(( The compressed air unit sounds good. The other thing to consider is using LPG/O2 and buying an O2 bottle outright from a airliquid dealer.

[nearnexus]

I for one would be very interested in any information regarding price and availability you find out about that German lpg/comp air unit.

Before I got the Bullfinch (after selling the oxy plant) I played around with a compressed air feed into my regular old style Primus lpg gun.

I got the idea from an old Mechanics book I had from the 1940's where workshops used a similar setup with mains gas to bump up the temperature as a sort of very crude/por mans torch.

It will work with LPG, BUT the jetting is already pretty much as lean as they can go on those guns to get maximum temperature from the standard gun/regulator.

Adding extra compressed air pushes up the temperature by (very rough guess) 20% but the flame can easily be extinguished by the work if you upset the flame path.

This was a home brew setup, and it did help a lot, but it's not a patch on the specially made/regulated Bullfinch, and it roared like a 747 taking off :)

Had an awesome flame about 9" long as well.

So a specialty gun/properly jetted and with a full mixing head like that German one would be great and with those figures I most definitely would buy one if it was available for sub $400 AU.

Keep us informed on that one.

[Stustoys]

Hi John,
Be sure to let us know what you find out. I've seen those tourches in a book and would sure like one.... though I'm not so sure I'll like the cost.

I'll scan the pictures for you Cliff, though it might be "only" 80000 BTU(23.5kW...... thats a lot)

Torches | Gas Torch | Brazing Torch | Soldering Torch - Flamefast (http://www.flamefast.co.uk/torches.html)

Stuart

p.s. that flame temp drawing is for a self-blown gas torch

[shedhappens]

nearnexus, on the weekend just for a bitta fun I fitted a LPG cutting tip in my comet 3 and hooked up the compressed air to it.

Yep.........it sounded like a jumbo jet :U

When adjusted to a good hot flame the base of the flame was semi-spherical, about 4" dia, 16" long and about 16" from the tip, hahaha

It went out easily and probably would work with fire bricks and very still air, I was thinking about how to make a suitable heating tip and I came in to see if I could find anything on the internet about propane and compressed air, bingo, I found those torches.

If/when I get replies from the suppliers I will post them here.

john

[nearnexus]

Shed, are you going to email the company?

Technically those guns might have an adjustable needle type main jet so you can richen up the LPG to match the air pressure ?

And then do they mix the gas in the head, or use a special multi flow jet in the burner head instead.

Interesting to speculate on how they do it properly.

[shedhappens]

nearnexus, have contacted them, and maybe I'm also hoping for a massive nose dive with the euro

[Grahame Collins]

Just to settle the Mapp gas argument.

Whether or not it is hotter or not, it is no longer valid, as the last Mapp gas was produced in 2008 ( read the WIKI) and I for one,have not seen refills in the stores.

Maybe its got sumptin to do with the legal nastiness in the good old USA over the cylinder failures with the stuff.

The propylene, its replacement,does not cut it for me.

I am interested in one of these German jobbies.

Grahame

[nearnexus]

OK Shed.

The Perkeo guns look the most interesting. We might need some advice on picking the right burner head.

Second ones down from the top (first NEW) on page 79 look about right ?

Found this for the Harris http://www.rapidwelding.com/dynamic/DisplayItem.aspx?c=H2250

Wow -----not cheap and NO mention of brazing with that one.

[shedhappens]

It looks like I just got a reply back from china.:C

I've been though this before, it seems that I will have to send one email for each question !!

====================================

dear sir,

the heat is 2000°C! this is more than MAPP gas.

the price for the set is 308,35 €/set plus packing and freight cost.

regards
PERKEO-WERK GMBH+CO.KG

Yassine Hönes
managing director



PERKEO-WERK GMBH+CO.KG
Talweg 5
D-71701 Schwieberdingen
GERMANY

Tel. +49 (0) 7150 - 35043-21
Fax +49 (0) 7150 - 35043-40

www.perkeo-werk.de
[email protected]

[jack620]

Maybe someone who's actually used one can enlighten us on how they perform ?

My pleasure! I've owned a CIG Comcolt oxy-LPG torch for over 30 years. I also have a MAPP turbotorch. I use the MAPP for silver-soldering copper to copper and annealing hard copper before bending. I use the oxy-LPG for silver soldering copper to brass fittings and brazing steel tube.

For brazing and silver-soldering large parts I often fit a cutting tip to the Comcolt to get enough BTUs into the job. It's quicker and allows a softer flame which has less tendency to blow out I find.

For more info from people who know more about the subject than me, see this tread from the welding forum:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f160/lpg-neutral-flame-152088/

Cheers,
Chris

Oops, I just noticed there's another page to this thread that I hadn't read. Some of what I've written has been covered by others. LPG/compressed air sounds promising (if not very portable).

[Crossfeed]

I have used oxy lpg for years, for cutting I prefer it to oxy acet.
If works fine for brazing, either nickel or manganese bronze and also solver soldering, even on heavy copper.
Forget fusion welding the flame is too oxidising and not intense enough.

It works fine for heating, I have heated everything from 16mm plate to 125mm bar to bright red. You need the correct tips for this, in the larger sizes LPG tips become more common.

Air LPG is good for large area preheating and silver soldering steel and light copper, it helps to pile insulating firebricks around larger jobs.

[nearnexus]

Crossfeed are you saying that these LPG/compressed air guns are more suited to pre-heating ?

Is the flame pattern/path too large for accurate localised application to melt bronze in a controlled manner?

Both the the comp air/LPG guns that Shed identified seem to be aimed more at heating large areas (lots of BTHUs) but maybe not so flash for intense heat application? That's why I suggested buyers might need some advice on burner selection.

This is the whole problem with bronze brazing - you want lots of heat, but it has to be concentrated to do the job. eg. Kitchen stoves have lots of BTHU but you can't bronze braze with them :)

The application of compressed air seems to have one major issue regarding flame propogation in that you are pushing 80% in volume of non combustible gas through the flame path. This is probably why Shed and my experiments with comp air resulted in such a fragile but huge flame pattern.

That's my main worry over using this setup and why I am a bit suspect on what it would be like to use.

It's OK to outlay all this cash if you know 100% that it will do the job, eg as for the Bullfinch, where I saw it demonstrated in outdoor conditions at the Kapunda Farm Fair on several occassions.

The German gun with the right burner tip may be great stuff, and a leg up on what I've currently got - BUT we need more information.

[shedhappens]

I managed to get some answers from www.perkeo-werk.de

Here is the email, her answers are in red.

==============================================

Yassine said:

you have to try them, that´s what i think.


Am 27.06.2012 14:48, schrieb j:


Hi again Yassine,
Originally I was considering to purchase this,
Model 89-3 | The Harris Products Group (http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Equipment/Torches/Heating-Assemblies/Model-89-3.aspx)
The problem with that torch is that it only is provided with one size heating tip so it will be restricted in it's versatility.
Your Propane-compressed air torch 786/00/T6 has three we have 7 different (#786/0 - #786/6) heating tips supplied, what are the differences in those heating tips ? Do they change the focus of the heat-no, or are they for small heating jobs to larger heating+brazing job's - yes?
I need something that I can use for small copper pipe silver soldering, use to heat rusted machine parts
to assist in disassembly of shafts, bearings ect, and for heat treating and annealing steel shaft and hard-drawn
copper pipe, for heating and bending pipe and metal bar. for more power take also the bigger size #786/5

I noticed in your catalog that you also have a larger propane-compressed air heating torch,
"PERKEO Propane-compressed air heating, brazing and melting outfit RISTA 786/1/00/T6"
Is the performance of this torch much greater than the 786/00/T6 ? yes! it´s for preheating big moulds f.e.

The use's we have for these torch's are many and varied, how do these two torches compare with oxy/propane torches ?
the flame of the compressed air-propane torches is not as the oxy-propane flame. it´s more bushy an not so hot.

What are the output's in BTU's ? between 75117 - 341442 btu

What type of work are these torches usually used for ? brazing, heating, soldering.....

I am sorry for all the questions Yassine but this type of torch is new to me, I have never even
heard of these before a few day's ago and neither has any of my associates,
it appears that these torches have not been sold in Australia before to our knowledge.

regards John

==============================================

She sure isn't gunna get a "gas torch saleswomen" of the year award !

And I still have not had a reply from Harris regarding their torch.

John

[nearnexus]

Ummm, Shed......I think Yassine is a bloke.

My limited understanding of middle eastern names seems to suggest that's not a woman your dealing with.

If so, then yes, Yassine definitely won't get gas torch saleswoman of the year award :)

Seems rather odd that the Perkeo comp air/propane guns aren't sold through the Perkeo retailers I saw on the web.

BTW I found this sheet on another brand of British lpg/comp air torches.

Flamefast - which look sorta similar to the German ones.

T2 and T4 type.

http://www.flamefast.co.uk/PDFs/FLAMEFAST_T2%20&%20T4%20TORCH_DATASHEET_V1_LORES.pdf

Interesting that they run at 4 psi compressed air - they also sell a special air blower that will supply this. Will have to check to see if my big regulator can go down to 4 psi.

And the same company have a "any questions, please contact us " email address for their torches.

http://www.flamefast.co.uk/torches.html

Maybe they can supply flame shape/size data. Do you want me to contact them or will you ?

[Crossfeed]

Crossfeed are you saying that these LPG/compressed air guns are more suited to pre-heating ?

Is the flame pattern/path too large for accurate localised application to melt bronze in a controlled manner? Sorry for the slow reply, LPG air has a soft flame, it might make a racket but it is diluted with 80% nitrogen. I doubt that it would have the localised heat needed for brazing, they do work for silver soldering, the soft flame is an advantage for this application.

To give some idea of heating capacity. an LPG air burner with a 10 x 50mm nozzle would heat a spot in 16mm plate to dull red in about 2 minutes. A 40mm round shower rose style oxy LPG torch would make the same plate bright red in 30 or so seconds. These are both large area heating torches. For comparison an oxy lpg torch with a 1.5mm tip will braze 3mm steel, at a reasonable speed as you can imagine a 1.5mm tip gives a quite localised heat source. Oxy acetylene could braze 6mm steel with the same size tip at similar speed. For most brazing application a tip less than 3mm would be desirable for soldering a flame large enough to envelop the work piece works well.

[Binary]

With fathers day coming up I splurge out and buy one of these Bullfinch torches. Arrives today and my joy turns to frustration as quickly realise how clueless I am with this. I was expecting to be able to use the BBQ bottle, but no the fitting does not fit. So, Anyone care to spare time and wish to educate me please? It it even possible to use the BBQ bottle? :( :( :(


I've got one of these LPG torches and they work very well.

Bullfinch 404 Autotorch Brazing Gas Blow Torch Kit | Buy Now at gasproducts.co.uk (http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Bullfinch_404_Autotorch_Brazing_Gas_Blow_Torch_Kit.html)

[shedhappens]

Binary take your regulator to BOC or maybe even a plumbing supplies like Reece and they should have the correct fitting for it

john

when you get it up and running could you give us a bit of feedback please :U

[Stustoys]

Failing what John said you could try a BBQ shop.

Stuart

[nearnexus]

Mines just got the standard tapered 9 kg LPG bottle connector. You use a wrench on it.

You do know it's left hand thread ?

You should use a 9 kg bottle with the Bullfinch - to get plenty of gas through put.

I used mine again today. Great unit.

I'm nearly out of gas and I see that my now well and truly out of date gas bottle can be swapped for a full one at Bunnings for only $20 - pretty good deal.

Work out what 9 kg of MAPP gas would cost in comparison.

Rob

[Binary]

Thanks all, I'll see what is available in this small town.

Nearnexus, I know it is a LH thread, I'd be rather crazy removing a LH fitting (the BBQ) and then trying to fit a RH thread :doh: I am just above that level of cluelessness :)

It almost goes in but gets tight very early. I have just had a better look, thread pitch looks to be the same but the thread is around 0.25mm too large.

[nearnexus]

I wondered if it was a classic case of brain fade :)

Where did you buy it - from EH Cambridges or imported ?

Rob

[nadroj]

Kmart used to sell, maybe still do, adaptors for the many different styles of LPG tank fittings. Camping supply shops might be able to help.

Jordan

[bollie7]

It almost goes in but gets tight very early. I have just had a better look, thread pitch looks to be the same but the thread is around 0.25mm too large.
I've come across that before as well. Can you unscrew the fitting from the reg? if so you might be able to swap a nut from an old BBQ reg (that fits the bottle) onto your new torch reg.
bollie7

[Binary]

I ordered it from the link earlier in thread, the UK site.

It looks like one should be able to unscrew the tail, though It looks like there maybe a pin that needs removing. I can get a little turn but not much. There is also a dimple above the pin you can see in the photos that exists on both sides, I hope thats not some kind of thread crimp..

Here are two photos, if anyone has some input I'll be grateful.
Photo 1 (http://www.serverdoc.com/personal/pics/forums/POL1.JPG)
Photo 2 (http://www.serverdoc.com/personal/pics/forums/POL2.JPG)

Oh, Yes wife visited Reece and they are at a loss. Maybe being in a Country town they have not had much exposure....?

Thanks all.

[nearnexus]

Here's what mine is like - looks the same.

Are you sure the gas bottle connector (female) is not slightly oval shaped/out of round. I have seen this.

Also check that the rubber nose cone/seal that some barby regulators have, hasn't come off and is still in the gas bottle (female) connector - seen that too.

Can you try it on another gas bottle ? Maybe your Reece man might let you try one of theirs :)

Rob

[Binary]

I like your thinking, but I have tried it in the bottle, the gas fuse and a bottle @ Reece. Each time the thread starts but get tight a few threads in. It is so close.

*looks for a POL die* :o:o

And yes they do look the same, though mine still has a nice shine :) (thanks for taking the time to provide images)

[ozheat]

Binary,
Have a look at the cone end of the pol fitting it may have a hex instead of a round hole, if so just insert a allen key to undo the fitting.
The fitting is probally just like a acetelene bottle fitting which is slightly larger major diameter.

I have been using LPG/oxy for the last 15 years and have gone through 2 sets of oxy/acet gear, on both I have just used the acet reg and fitting on LPG bottles.
An acetelene fitting will fit a LPG bottle if you force it a little with a 12" shifter, it will still be a tight fit and will require a shifter each time you want to remove the reg but with the reg you have you need to tighten with a shiter as it doesn't have a o-ring like a standard hand tightened LPG POL fitting has.

[nearnexus]

The next thing to do is compare the Bullfinch fitting to the barby fitting - use a micrometer or good dial caliper to check the outside thread diameter.

With a bit of luck it may just be slightly O/S on the outside of the thread from the machining process and may be rubbed back with a bit of emery tape.

You could also (very carefully) run the thread over a wire wheel to polish it up and take the edge off the thread.

Other than that you will need to run the fitting through a POL die if the thread valley is different.

Rob

[Ueee]

Binary,
Have a look at the cone end of the pol fitting it may have a hex instead of a round hole, if so just insert a allen key to undo the fitting.
The fitting is probally just like a acetelene bottle fitting which is slightly larger major diameter.

I have been using LPG/oxy for the last 15 years and have gone through 2 sets of oxy/acet gear, on both I have just used the acet reg and fitting on LPG bottles.
An acetelene fitting will fit a LPG bottle if you force it a little with a 12" shifter, it will still be a tight fit and will require a shifter each time you want to remove the reg but with the reg you have you need to tighten with a shiter as it doesn't have a o-ring like a standard hand tightened LPG POL fitting has.

Hi,
Thats an interesting thought, i was going to go to LPG oxy when my current acet bottle ran out, but thought i would need a new reg. Do you use the same pressure for the LPG as the acet or different?

[jack620]

What thread is the UK version of the Bullfinch supposed to have on it? If the Europeans use a different thread on their LPG fittings then at least you know you aren't dealing with a manufacturing fault or damage.

[jack620]

Thats an interesting thought, i was going to go to LPG oxy when my current acet bottle ran out...

Ewan, I've had an oxy/LPG set for over 30 years. It really is a poor man's oxy/acet. The flame has nowhere near the heat of acetylene. You can't fusion weld with it and brazing steel more than about 3mm thick is slow. I've taken to using a cutting tip for brazing to get enough heat into the job. Where Oxy/LPG excels is in cutting steel as you don't need the advantages that acetylene gives for cutting. If you do a bit of cutting then LPG may be the go for you.

If you were planning to re-use your acet welding tips forget it- they won't work with LPG as the LPG ones have a small flare in the end.

I'm the opposite to you. I'm actually considering upgrading to acetylene. It is expensive though and it may be more economical to just get a cheap MIG for welding steel.

Chris

[ozheat]

Ueee,
I'm not certain what pressure acet is as I just adjust the reg to suit the flame I need, I will look tommorow.

I mainly use the lpg/oxy to silver solder(2% silver) copper fittings from 1/2" to 2" and copper to brass fittings.

I also use I think a #8 tip that is reamed out to the largest tip cleaner, I then got a 1/8" drill bit to put a slight countersink in the end.
Works a treat for brazing & I don't need to worry too much about burning holes in the copper or overheating the silver solder.
I don't use the oxy for cutting or fusion welding but that is outdated process anyway as I have a plasma cutter, arc and tig.

Cheers Andy

[jack620]

Found this on the web:

POL is the common name for the standard CGA 510 connection. Thread specification is .885" – 14 NGO – LH – INT, meaning .885" diameter thread, 14 threads per inch, National Gas Outlet form, left-hand internal thread.

Hope that helps.

[Binary]

Just an update all (also thanks everyone for assistance)
I removed that silver pin and this allowed removal of the tailpipe and nut. With care and time the nut has been reduced in size and is now a snug but not overly tight fit with 12" shifter. Soapy water was bubble free. Only had a quick light of the torch, looks good, then came back in from the cold :cool::oo:
I'll keep my eye open for the correct nut.

[cba_melbourne]

This is what I found for $80 on ebay(au) a few years ago:

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m550/chrisbanninger/Sievert/01.jpg

it is a Sievert Promatic totch. It has automatic ignition, and there is a large range (almost 30 at last count) of bayonet fitted burners available, from 0.7kW to 125kW. Shown on my handle is the 7.4kW standard burner. And detached in front of it a pin-point burner of 700W aimed at jewelry and the like. The regulator is from Harris and the gas cylinder is the spare from my barbeque. The pin-point burner was not included in the eBay deal, I got it from the UK. This is a great unit, only problem is the price of burners (about AU$ 90 each).

I also have an air blown desktop burner, left over from a glass blower workshop when it shut down. The way I see it, these air blown burners are to achieve a smaller and hotter flame. I remember the days as a kid interested in chemistry. I used to bend glass tubes into shape with a spiritus burner. The spiritus flame was far too large and not hot enough. But by blowing air from my mouth through a hose and a glass pipe nozzle into the wide spiritus flame, I was able to obtain a small pointed flame hot enough to melt glass. That is essentially what todays sophisticated air blown burners do. And you do not need an air compressor to run them, the outlet of a suitably modified vacuum cleaner will do just fine. You do not need air pressure, just flow.

By the way, I recovered a number of bunsen burners from a univerities rubbish bin. If anyone needs a simple primitive used bunsen burner email me, free for postage cost only.

On a side note, I do some brazing with TIG. Just needs some silicone bronze rods available from ebay. And yes, me too got VERY frustrated and ANGRY at these Argon cylinder rental costs from BOC. Did you know, that Aussie gas companies make 50% of their profits.... from cyinder rental alone????? In most other countries you can buy your cylinder, not so here. Well, I asked around and was given generously a number of G sized gas cylinders. Out of test date. Now I hire one G size argon cylinder from BOC for one day, and through a homemade copper pipe/needle valve fill its content into my 4 old untested cylinders. It only takes half an hour. The BOC cylinder gets cold to touch, my cylinders barely warm up. The pressure from initially 170 Bar drops to half as much for my first cylinder, one quarter the next and so forth. So I am not the least worried about my cylinders being out of test date. I do not need worry about liability or worksafe either, as mine is a pure hobby workshop with no employees. Where there is a will (to save), there is a way. I would not do this with Oxygen though, but Argon being an inert gas is in my opinion no problem. And by the way, when I was given a tour in a large gas filling company in oz (no names), I was told they only find a couple faulty cylinders a year when re-testing them. This cylinder hire business is well and truly a bonanza for them. Chris

[Stustoys]

Hi Chris,
Nice looking touch. Is the 125kW burner for bottled gas? wouldnt the cylinder freeze?

I'll put my hand up for one of your bunsen burners Thank you.

There is a company in NSW selling cylinders. May they make lots of money and expand into VIC soon!
So if my math is right you get 15/16ths of the bottle. What does BOC charge by the day?

Stuart

[cba_melbourne]

> Nice looking touch. Is the 125kW burner for bottled gas? wouldnt the cylinder freeze?

I just double checked with the brochure. The very largest burners for this handpiece are 102kW. Burner diameter 60mm, gas consumption 8 kg/hr at 4 bar. They say these are for "roofing and other heat demanding works". I guess for "roofing" you would use them with a cylinder small enough to still be portable. Maybe not suitable for prolonged use, the gas pressure would drop as the bottle cools. Also I think the flame shape would not lend itself very much for soldering or brazing, more for melting bitumen or burning weeds.

> So if my math is right you get 15/16ths of the bottle. What does BOC charge by the day?

Yes you get most out of it. Then I plan using the cylinder with the highest pressure first, as this would be the most likely to loose pressure due to any small leak. I used to hire a small cylinder for several years. Told the dealer I need to swap it for a larger for a one off job, returned it right away and only paid for the content. It will likely last me for a couple of years. Normally I think the shortest hire period is a month. The only downside is that the four G cylinders take up quite some space in the workshop and are heavy.

Chris