A Sharpening simplicity breakthrough?? Comments from the wise heads please

[FenceFurniture]

As a relatively newcomer to woodworking, I have one advantage in learning techniques, and that is that I’m not stuck in certain sharpening rituals / techniques or choices of medium and method. I have recently laid in various bits of kit as I embark on my learning curve, and this also crosses over into plane sole / chisel back flattening. The kit components were all selected after reading copious amounts in the various threads here.

The choices that I have in the kit are as follows:


Tormek T7 ($600 second hand)
Lobster Wetstones 1000 & 6000 ($38.25 & $76.50 in the recent Hand Tools Group Buy)
DMT Diamond plates 220 extra coarse and 600 fine ($65 each from Lee Valley including freight - LV i.f.)
Worksharp 2000 (the no frills version) $175 on special at the Sydney Show
3M Diamond Film in four grits ($22.70 from LV i.f.)
3M Micro Abrasives PSA backed sheets in 15 & 5 micron (full size, $3.45 each from LV i.f.)
Veritas Honing Guide ($77.77 from LV i.f.)
Set of Feeler Gauges ($20.17 from LV i.f.) Thinnest is 0.0015”, so one and a half thou
100 grams each of 9 SiC grits (46 to 1200) from Gemcuts ($15 approx)
5 grams each Diamond Paste syringes 1200, 3000, 8000, 14000 from Gemcuts ($12.95 each)
Sheet of MDF for the diamond pastes (free, at any shed near you)
Sheet of Granite 600 x 500 (free – been carrying the bludgers (6) through eight house moves over the last 20 years, waiting for a use to present itself)
Colour Coded Grit – importantly cloth backed
Can of Spray PSA. About $10 from any art shop, but my local was out and I got gouged $25 for a slightly larger can of 3M from the office supply joint.
Packet of Overhead Transparency Sheets (actually “Covers” for Spiral Binding, as they are thicker) $20 per 100
Several metres of 600mm wide “Butchers Paper” from LV packaging filler for using when spraying (glue, G15 etc). Totally Free with any $700 purchase from LV, and the maniac cats get to go psycho in it for a few days.


THE AIM:
Is to produce the thinnest possible full width shavings from hardwoods (with HNT planes) and softwoods (with old Stanleys), and leave a great surface on the timber. After reading the recent (and for me very illuminating) Chip Breakers / Cap Irons thread by Derek Cohen I also aimed to get straight shavings (i.e. not curlies). This made sense to me because if the shaving is straight then it is not stressed in any way, and that must surely mean the same for the surface left behind – therefore no tearout which has been mine enemy in Spotted Gum.

A CAUTIONARY NOTE:
I am not particularly given to conventional thinking, and rarely accept the mantra of “that’s the way it’s done”, at least not without challenging this thinking if it appears to me to have flaws or room for improvement. Therefore I am willing to try anything that I think might work, or work better, in an effort to come up with the best solution for me. The “best” solution may mean quicker but a little more expensive in materials, or much cheaper but with a little more time and effort involved, or just a plain and simple better result.

I WAS NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO:


Flattening the sole of my #4½ Stanley with SiC grits (the sole was way out)
The mess of Grits, Wetstones and Spray PSA :~

Less than very good results :toobad:

Dropping an HNT blade far too close to my foot for comfort :o (although it did land on the heel – of the blade that is)
Wearing a hole in my left middle finger on the DMT plate 600 (it happened without even feeling it :q– the first indication was a curious red stain appearing on the plate. I must say that it did assist in the steel abrasion though :aro-u:.


THE RESEARCH:
Apart from reading copious amounts on the forum, I referred to DC’s website (who said external links are a PITA???) for his technique on Chisel lapping with stuck down abrasive paper (which I had already been fooling around with for a year or so). I also had much email and verbal dialogue with rsser, and this was vital to getting through a tough patch when I was not getting the sort of result I wanted. So thank you :2tsup: to Derek for your continued generosity of information, and Ern in particular :2tsup: for a more hands on and direct approach, and substantial coaching and encouragement.

TBC….

[FenceFurniture]

PLANE SOLE FLATTENING:
Armed with my newly acquired SiC grits, plastic covers and granite block I thought I was going to eat the sole, albeit slowly. Well I was right about that – it is SLOOOOWWWWwww. All I got to eat was my hat. I had a pretty good rhythm going and was able to build some quite accurate high speed figure 8s. But keee-rist it’s so slow! Even with 46 grit (which tended to tear the plastics sheets anyway). Of course, all the time I had the memory of using abrasives strips on granite bobbing around in my head, and how much quicker I remembered that to be.:thinks: I also had some of the worst abrasive paper I have ever purchased (the yellow Norton roll which I think is for Painters – 80g is “Medium”, and 120g is “Fine”!!). I had previously found that it couldn’t be bent without cracking, and wore out in no time at all.

RIGHT! :~ Bugger the grits, let’s go back to the memory and see what happens. So I stuck down a strip of this useless yellow crap, and damn me if it didn’t take off more cast iron in the first few strokes (back and forth only) than all of the previous hour’s worth of grits combined. This was not a revelation, but a vindication of what I remembered to be the case. The paper did still wear out very quickly, but at least it gave me the opportunity to use it up on a task that it was actually capable of.

When I’d exhausted the supply of yellow 80g I then switched over to 300 x 500mm sheets of 80g Colour Coded Grit, and as expected this was much more durable, although it still loses it’s initial edge pretty quickly (esp under the sole of a 70mm wide plane body such as the Stanley #4½). I didn’t keep track, but I would estimate that the sole took about an hour or so to flatten with this method (remembering that it was way out). I also did the sides of the plane body, and this was much easier because of the smaller surface area, and even when the abrasive sheet was apparently “spent” for the sole there was still plenty of grunt left in it for the sides, and also the next sole I tackled – a Record #3 which was in much better condition and didn’t take more than about 15-20 minutes.

It is imperative to wear a face mask during this process if you wish to avoid black snot. I also used a cordless vac (best invention ever) to remove the swarf periodically from the abrasive sheet. This also allows for the remaining cutting power of the sheet to be gauged upon resumption – if you’re getting more swarf then there’s still life in the abrasive.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9994-sharpening-ccg-spray-glues-granite.jpg

When I was about half way through the #4½ sole I took it to the Sydney Show to get Jim Davey’s opinion. When I’ve done as much as I can to the plane I intend to send it to Jim with a new Harold & Saxon HSS M2 blade and let him perform whatever magic he can. I fully expect to have increased backlash problems (4-5- revolutions already) because of the increased blade thickness (2.6mm) which will lead to depth adjuster problems. Anyway, Jim was of the opinion that I was on the right track with the flattening (but I didn’t venture my technique to him at that stage), and to “keep going”. Ern (rsser) also raised a potential concern about compression of the cloth leading to false flatness, but I believe that this is not the case (it passes the “light through the crack” test with a 1/1000” calibrated straightedge).

After I was satisfied that the sole was flat I went up to 120, 180, 400g CCG on granite and the surface was starting to look pretty damn good. I had been marking it out with a very thick blue permanent marker at various intervals. I suppose that most would say that my next step was overkill, but (because I could) I clamped the plane body in the vise and then using a Rotex 90 sander I went through 800, 1600, 2500 grits.

This product was Jost Abrasives (German) “SuperPad SG2” which has a 2mm sponge backing, and is known to be ridiculously durable. The sponge backing for flatness is not a concern at all because this is now only polishing and there is very little material removed, and so flatness won’t be affected in the least. Care was needed when traversing over the mouth as the abrasive pad can catch (a slight lift to step over and onto it so the middle of the disc was over the mouth). The finish is excellent, especially considering that this plane has quite obviously been very badly rusted sometime between after 1910 (the patent date) and now, as there is pitting all over the sole and elsewhere. I have not had the fortitude to remove all this pitting, but I may do that at some stage (I’m fresh out of course abrasive cloth now).

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9990-sharpening-flattened-sole.jpg

Pretty happy with that. This has been redone for the photo after a fair bit of use, and you can see a blemish (the start of rusty?) in the middle of the sole, but it has no effect. O’course the very first stroke on wood produced a nice scratch didn’t it? Upon advice from NCArcher & Pac Man (thanks Tony & Paul) who saw the plane at the show, I flattened the blade bed and the Chip Breaker (where it meets the blade) so as to get the best possible mating of the surfaces. A bit of G15 sprayed over the raw parts to prevent rust, re-assembled the plane, and ready for…..

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9993-sharpening-h-s-blade-manufactured.jpg

[FenceFurniture]

I was almost done with the flattening when the shipment of HSS M2 blades from Harold & Saxon arrived. I particularly wanted to try these blades “out of the box” (i.e. with nil extra polishing or sharpening by me – literally unscrewed from its packaging, and dropped straight into the plane). I set the CB back about 0.5 – 1mm from the bevel edge, adjusted the blade straightness and depth and with some anticipation took my first swipe at a piece of Douglas Fir about 70mm wide.

WOW! I mean, just WOW!!! A full width shaving (60mm) and pretty bloody thin too (minor depth adjustment required). The surface left behind was immaculate. All good, so onto the dreaded Spotted Gum. Same result! YEEHAA! I’ve done it! I did get a little bit of tearout in one spot after a while, but that’s because of the inherent bevel/bed angle with Stanleys, and the fact that they weren’t particularly designed for Nasty Aussie Hardwoods (NAHs).

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9989-sharpening-douglas-fir-1.jpg


http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9988-sharpening-douglas-fir-2.jpg


The only thing left for this plane now is to send it down to Jim and let him do his thing with it. I’m particularly keen to see what he can do about the (as I thought) increased backlash which is now a ridiculous 6-7 revs. This (I think) has been exacerbated by the increased blade thickness from the standard 2.2mm to Trent’s chatterless 2.6mm. There is still plenty of mouth (what else would you expect from me?), and the mouth appears to be straight and perpendicular (unlike me) but may need vertical shaping with a file and an expert hand – i.e. not mine.

I couldn’t wait to get on the blower to Trent and give him an earful of superlatives about his blade, He’s such a modest chap, and a fountain of information. He’s well aware of my recent entry to wwking and so knows that there is nil experience behind the comments, thoughts and theories, but is still quite chuffed all the same. For me this is one of the fantastic by-products of organising the things that I/we do – talking and conversing with the great toolmakers of the world is a major enlightenment and I am very fortunate indeed to experience it (we don’t always stick to business). Actually I have to say that it’s a blast!

I then emailed my results to Ern (which is when he queried the potential compression of the cloth). Also, he enquired after the flatness of the blade “as manufactured”, to which I responded that it passed the light crack & feeler gauge test, and furthermore, who gives a toss with shavings like these – it must be bloody close to perfect already! I was loathe to change the visual uniformity of the surface finish, but I convinced myself that I was just being an obsessive PITA, and that I should indeed find out just how flat it was. The only way to do that was to start polishing a surface that I would say is 40-50% polished already (and that’s not a criticism – by “polished” I do actually mean mirror, and to me that means a sharp reflection of my face or the lamp head, not a slightly out-of-focus one – it’s the photographer in me.

A THOUGHT ON FLATNESS: Seems to me that most would agree that you only need about 2mm of genuine flatness behind the edge, and past that it can be not so flat, as it doesn’t affect the edge sharpness. That’s all good and I have no disagreement with the theory, but when it comes to applying theory to practice, it is in fact rather difficult to get decent registration when trying to flatten only 2-5mm. I therefore elect to flatten around 20mm or so, as I reckon it’s probably less work and quicker (although more resource hungry) than trying to fool around doing the minimum distance required. Accuracy is the prize here, not saving consumables (second priority).

BACK TO THE H&S BLADE: From “out of the box” condition I started high up the polishing scale at either 3000g or 8000g diamond paste on MDF, so as to see how the land was lying, without leaving scratches deeper than I may not have wanted (at that point, and that I would then have to remove). And so I moved backwards down the grit scale to find a good starting point with the minimum polishing path. This resulted in starting with the 600 DMT plate. From the starting paste I could see that there was a small area of the blade that was dished a tiny bit. I can’t measure the dishing but it’s extremely shallow (less than half a thou??). The important point is that out-of-the-box, right across the blade edge is flat back to a minimum of 3mm, and up to said 20mm. From the 600 diamond plate I went back up through 1200, 3000, 8000, 14000 diamond paste on MDF to achieve my best version of a mirror finish. This whole matter of blade flatness / bevel honing / mirror finish was resolved in a matter if 5-10 minutes.

How did I go? I can quite clearly see the pores of my skin in the reflection. This photograph (which unfortunately appears as poor quality when posted on here) was taken after redoing the process just now for the purposes of taking the photograph itself (after using the blade for a while), and I don’t think I did quite as good a job on the polishing this time, and I think I need a diamond paste grit of 1800 as well.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9991-sharpening-polished-back-more-work-do.jpg




The reflection is of an old Pepsi sign on the roof of the Barn.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9992-sharpening-focus-reflection.jpg


To be honest, whilst there was an improvement in sharpness and performance, it was nowhere near as significant as the change from the old OEM blade to the H&S blade. I mean, the blade was already taking very nice shavings from Spotted Gum before I did any work on it, so there wasn’t a whole lot of head room left.

[FenceFurniture]

I have an HNT Gordon A55 Trying plane with HSS blade (also recent) and I have been giving it a fair old work out, especially in scraping mode, so it was well due for some honing. The back had been flattened (as manufactured) but there appeared to be some dubbing on one corner of the back and the surface grinding marks are much more significant than on the Harold & Saxon blades. No need to test how far up the chain I can start with this one – straight to the DMT 220 Extra Coarse.

I do not recall reading anywhere, or being advised, that a DMT diamond plate is to be treated with an absolute gossamer touch, and that even medium pressure would wear the stupid bloody thing out within a week! I now get more swarf from the 600 than the 220. This is an electro-plated diamond coating process, and finally I read on the Tools From Japan website that this type of bonding is not so durable as sintered plates. Perhaps Ern has mentioned this to me before, but it got drowned out. In short, the extra coarse plate was a total waste of $65, when purchased for the purposes of flattening. It’s not that I was brutal with it (at first) – it just wasn’t producing much swarf (using water as lube, as DMT recommends) with light pressure. It was a bit like the SiC grits. If it’s not producing much swarf then it’s not cutting much steel.

Anyway, I followed the same routine up through to 14000, reset the blade (with Terry’s remarkably simple Blade Setting Block technique). I went for the Spotty again in normal (non-scraping) mode. After some minor depth adjustment I went for the first full length stroke, and to my utter astonishment a straight, uncurled, full width shaving rocketed up vertically out of the plane and floated to the floor, and I just cracked up laughing in amazement. “How good is that?” my neighbours would have heard from a distance. I was just flabbergasted at the sight of it. It doesn’t happen with every pass, and I suppose that is something to do with the variables of timber, but it happens regularly, 2 or 3 out of 5 or 6 passes results in a tissue thin, straight, flat shaving flying out of the plane at speed. If I had a big boy’s camera (with no hideous shutter delay) I could capture an action shot of this phenomenon, but this jimmy up (below) will have to satisfy you (and the shavings tend to re-curl a little in the low humidity of my heated shed:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9987-sharpening-spotted-gum-1.jpg




http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9986-sharpening-spotted-gum-2.jpg


The surface, straight off the plane


http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9985-sharpening-surface-sg-off-plane.jpg


and then with 2500 grit only:


http://www.woodworkforums.com/members/62924-fencefurniture/albums/sharpening/9984-sharpening-surface-sg-going-straight-2500-grit.jpg

[FenceFurniture]

BACK TO THE KIT:
The point of the previous digression was to illustrate what was not mentioned: the Lobster Waterstones. Oh yeah, I’ve used them enough to know that they cut HSS quite well (bevels), and I’ve used them enough to know that they are exactly what I thought they would be: messy, fiddly, slow to prepare PITAs that require far too much maintenance themselves to stay effective.

I’ll stand corrected by those that know far more than I, but at the moment I can’t see a place for Waterstones of any kind in my kit. Without reflecting on the 3M Micro Abrasive or Diamond Film (as I haven’t used either of them yet), it looks at this stage that the complete kit for flattening and sharpening needs to be the following, which is much simpler, and less costly to set up, and not too costly to maintain either:



Tormek T7 ($600 second hand)
DMT Diamond plates 220 extra coarse and 600 fine ($65 each from Lee Valley including freight - LV i.f.) but the brand and type need to be changed to a sintered version, probably iWood from Tools From Japan
Veritas Honing Guide ($77.77 from LV i.f.)
Set of Feeler Gauges ($20.17 from LV i.f.) Thinnest is 0.0015”, so one and a half thou
5 grams each Diamond Paste syringes 1200, 3000, 8000, 14000 from Gemcuts ($12.95 each)
Sheet of MDF for the diamond pastes (free, at any shed near you)
Sheet of Granite 600 x 500 (free – been carrying the bludgers (6) through eight house moves over the last 20 years, waiting for a use to present itself)
Colour Coded Grit – importantly cloth backed
Can of Spray PSA
Several metres of 600mm wide “Butchers Paper” from LV packaging filler for using when spraying


I think there may be a benefit in following the 600 Diamond plate with a 600 diamond paste (but seeing is believing). I’m quite sure there would be a benefit in inserting 1800 grit after the 1200. Following 14000 with 50000 would be just being obsessive, and so I’ll prolly get that, but going to 100,000 is just a waste.

What has been deleted is:


Worksharp 2000 (the no frills version) $175 on special at the Sydney Show
Lobster Wetstones 1000 & 6000 ($38.25 & $76.50 in the recent Hand Tools Group Buy)
DMT Diamond plates 220 extra coarse and 600 fine ($65 each from Lee Valley including freight - LV i.f.)
100 grams each of 9 SiC grits (46 to 1200) from Gemcuts ($15 approx)
Packet of Overhead Transparency Sheets (actually “Covers” for Spiral Binding as they are thicker)


The Worksharp will not have been a waste of money at all, as it will have other applications (such as polishing the ends of rods – I don’t have a spark grinder)

And the jury is out on (only because they are untried by me):



3M Diamond Film in four grits ($22.70 from LV i.f.)
3M Micro Abrasives PSA backed sheets in 15 & 5 micron (full size, $3.45 each from LV i.f.)



So, for ongoing sharpening, the kit can be reduced to:



Sintered Diamond plate 600 fine (not much water required – bugger all mess)
Veritas Honing Guide
5 grams each Diamond Paste syringes 600, 1200, 1800, 3000, 8000, 14000
Sheet of MDF for the diamond pastes. I’ll make this into a proper gizmo, with individual pieces for the different grits


Alright then, over to you wise fellas for your assessment, and thanks for reading.

[NCArcher]

That was quite a read Brett.
Glad you're having fun :U I'm really enjoying the HNT planes as well. They work beautifully. I only have the TS blades but I find them pretty durable so far.
I've trimmed my plane blade routine down lately.
Flatten back on water stones, 220, 1000 and 4000. Doesn't take too long and I have a sink in the shed which contains the mess nicely. I flatten around 20 - 30mm so shouldn't have to do it again for a while. I have a 220 grit diamond plate for flattening the stones.
Tormek coarse and fine for the bevel then switch to the leather honing wheel with some honing compound.
Mirror polish on the back and bevel that shaves the hair off my arm effortlessly. (my left arm is pretty bald) Only takes a few minutes.
Like you, I haven't found the DMT plates to last very long. The 220 I bought for flattening the stones is only used on the stones so is holding up a bit better. I will look at a sintered coarse plate for the next purchase.(thanks for pointing that out) I want to try some ceramic stones as well which will be when the water stones wear down.

[FenceFurniture]

Cheers Tony. And what thoughts have you on my aim to eliminate waterstones altogether in favour of Diamond paste?

Sintered Diamond plates from Schtoo (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_462_463&products_id=1210). Bugger it - the coarsest is 1000.

[China]

Simplicity ?

[derekcohen]

Brett my friend, you have been busy! And, Good Lord, you have accumulated a lot of Stuff!!

You asked me to comment. Well, Good Lord, you have accumulated a lot of Stuff!!

OK. I could say that the items you ended up with would not be not my choice. All this would demonstrate is that sharpening is a personal path and that I would expect us to differ. The best method is the one you are comfortable with, that works for you, and the hell what anyone else thinks.

Does it work efficiently?

Is it affordable?

A few suggestions: MDF is a poor substrate for diamond paste. The diamonds sink under the surface, which is not how they work. You need to use a cast iron plate (I made mine out of old planes) or mild steel (LV sell excellent plates). These hold the diamond captive on the surface.

As a good rule of thumb, follow the LV choice of diamond mesh when choosing diamond pastes. These were decided after a lot of testing, where the aim was to find the best spread of grits that reduced unnecessary effort. 15 micron is good starter, which is equivalent to 1000/1200, then 3 microns or 8000 grit, 0.5 micron or 14000 grit, and 0.1 micron or 100000 grit. Does the 0.1 micron make a difference? It certainly gets sharper, and for paring chisels and smoothers this is magic.

The diamond mesh from LV form my travelling kit. See here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/DiamondFilm.html

Choose a grinder. You only need one. I use the Tormek, and I appreciate that it can grind to the edge of a blade. There is less steel to hone to create a bevel, and this makes sharpening faster.

Hang onto everything you have. You have only just started down this path, and you will want to try other methods as you progress. What seems like a poor method now may turn around and surprise you with its efficiency because your skills have improved enough to use it correctly. Trust me, waterstones are fantastic and still #1 in my book. One day you may say the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Derek, glad you chimed in. Yes quite right about individual choices, but mine were made from nil real sharpening experience, so yes I would expect my choices to evolve.

"MDF is a poor substrate for diamond paste. The diamonds sink under the surface"... Ah I see, that explains a lot, although the patches did seem to stay charged for a reasonable time. The only problem with the LV plates is they cost more than $15 per kilo to freight over by their cheapest air method. Perhaps an old #6 plane body.... or what about float glass with a mild acid etch to prevent the paste just being wiped off (as it probably would be from a polished glass surface)?

"... follow the LV choice of diamond mesh when choosing diamond pastes..." Actually, this is perzackly what I tried to do - match the microns from the LV range to what was available here from a lapidary supplier. Gemcuts pastes are USA made, and you get 5 grams for the same price as 2 grams from LV, so I thought - worth a shot, and am not disappointed (again, nothing to reference to though).

"The diamond mesh from LV form my travelling kit." Yes, it'll be the next thing I try. You probably saw that I have some here, but unused as yet. I have a feeling that they may be more costly to run than the pastes, but I guess I'll find that out eh?

"Choose a grinder. You only need one. I use the Tormek" Ern's Tormek is now at home here. I found it quite ok for hollow grinding HSS M2. Which reminds me: I am setting this kit up aimed fairly and squarely at HSS capability. Seven of my eight planes are HSS blades, and I have a set of H&S chisels coming. I know HSS is not what everyone would choose, but I do like the no (or super-low) rusty factor, and I'm certainly not disappointed with it's sharpening qualities.

"Hang onto everything you have." Oh yes.:U

"You have only just started down this path, and you will want to try other methods as you progress. What seems like a poor method now may turn around and surprise you with its efficiency because your skills have improved enough to use it correctly." Too right, that's exactly my thinking, and what I'm naturally prone to doing.

"Trust me, waterstones are fantastic and still #1 in my book." Ok, no worries, and I believe you, but why are they so good incomparison to the various diamond bits and pieces? Essentially I need a really strong argument in favour of them, to counteract their PITAness (I don't have a sink, or running water in the Barn - got a 20 litre container on hand though.). I can certainly take steps to contain the mess they make, but I have to say that diamond plates & pastes are
a) efficient to hell
b) quick to setup and down
c) a minor cleanup
d) not particularly expensive to set up or run.

Cheers, Brett

EDIT: forgot to say that I had another look at your Tas Oak "straighties" (not curlies) - very nice indeed. Yours stay straight. They look gas when they fly up don't they?

[derekcohen]

Hi Brett

The downside of diamond?

This must be seen against waterstones. As a waterstone wears, so it exposes fresh, sharp grit. A diamond stone/paste does not do this. The grit simply wears out. As the waterstone wear, the grit breaks down into finer particles, and so you end up with a smoother surface. Diamond does not break down, and you end up with deep scratches on the coarser grits. These can be removed with finer and finer grits.

You cannot use glass as a substratum. Essentially, you will create loose diamonds, which will roll around. This will abrade both the steel and the glass, and the glass with end out-of-flat ... and then so will the steel.

There are waterstones ... actually "ceramic" stones (the Shaptons are an example) ... that use little water and stay flat for a decent time. I have a sink in my workshop, and work on the draining board. So it is a lot easier for me. As I said earlier, there is no perfect system. And one man's meat ....

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jimbur]

In the terms of a quotation (Dr Johnson I think) you are a genius FF. He reckoned it was an infinite capacity for taking pains.
You've found your own way and it works so :2tsup::2tsup:
Cheers,
Jim

[jmk89]

As Ron Hock said in his recent interview podcast by the Modern Woodworkers Association : what you use doesn't matter much, you just need to get good at whatever you use. So get good at what you've got. If you've got nothing choose something that appeals and handles all your sharpening tasks.

Personally, I use a dry grinder with a diamond wheel to grind, oilstones for sharpening& diamond paste on a strop for honing. Why? Because it works for me. And it's cheap.


Screwing up in new ways every day :)

[IanW]

Hi Brett - well, you've left little to add, and I think Derek has already made the useful points.

As he (Derek) said, you are on a journey, and the way is as long as you wish to make it, & the end wherever you decide it is. While I don't doubt tools can be sharpened & polished more than mine, the effort/result ratio would not be positive, for me, if I were to strive for anything more than I achieve now. The condition I take them to is sufficient unto the tasks they are expected to perform, and that varies a bit from tool to tool - smoothing planes & paring chisels usually get more TLC than a jack plane blade, for e.g. I want my tools to cut without excess effort & leave an acceptable surface. That is, acceptable to the job itself or the stage it's at. My finest stone is a hard white Arkansas, which is not quite as fine as a black hard. I have no idea of the micron equivalent, but it must be a good deal finer than 1200 grit W&D, judging by the surface it leaves.

Sharpening is such a personal thing, it's not just about getting two planes to meet in a reasonable line, it's a real test of virility, for some. Not only do we vary in what we will accept as a reasonable return for effort, we all develop our own 'best' ways to get there. Even such a basic process as initial grinding has widely different options. There are those who love their Tormeks (or clones thereof) but I don't like them at all. They are just too damn slow , for many of the jobs I want to do (like sharpening 10mm thick mulcher blades :o), but of course that's what makes them safe & suited to your purposes. I don't have room for both a wet and a dry grinder, so I settle for a dry grinder with one white & one grey wheel, which covers a wide range of other jobs as well as woodworking tools. It does take a while to learn to use a dry grinder safely, & for me it was worth the effort, but if you are only, or mostly, preparing woodworking tools, wet grinders are probbly a safer & surer option.

It will be interesting to read your thoughts on sharpening 5, and again 10 years from now, & see where the journey has taken you...... :;

So go at it, but don't get so involved in sharpening you forget to make things... :U

Cheers,

[Sam]

FF, I've used diamond paste for awhile (am quite happy with it overall) and received 2 LV honing plates yesterday. First impression is that they're incredibly heavy ! Because LV advises against running a honing guide over the paste covered plate I'm thinking I'll build a box to house each plate with a timber platform each end. The platforms will be the same level as the plate to run a honing guide wheel on allowing me to work in from each end. Thus only requiring two plates for four grits. I think Brent Beach has done something similar.

Alternatively the plates look like they could take the figure 8 motion freehand sharpening method (without gougeing) I was taught on an oilstone.

I'll do a 'review' after i've used the plates.

Sam

[FenceFurniture]

Sam, Ian, Jeremy, Jim & Derek

Thanks very much for your input. All that's been said makes sense. Those plates from LV would be about $40 landed. Hmmm.. :think:

Haven't seen any comments on Grits v stuck down paper for flattening - anyone have any thoughts there?

[Bushmiller]

So go at it, but don't get so involved in sharpening you forget to make things... :U

Cheers,

Ian

Now that is such a good point :wink:.

Brett

That was truly an epic and very well put together. I think the experts all seem to agree that whatever works for you is pretty much the best method. When sharpening seems to be taking over from production, you have probably taken the science too far :).

I have some diamond plates. They include a couple of littlies similar to a nail file and I use those for my router cutters. I have a large plate (200 x 100) which I bought for the horrendous price of $120 about 15 years ago. I bought it specifically to sharpen the 150mm planer blades in my ancient Ryobi. The guy who sold it to me said I would never wear it out. He was wrong:((.

They sharpen well initially and the larger plates are very flat, but they wear very quickly, as Derek Cohen said, and their performance drops right away. This is particularly disappointing considering their price and to my mind can only be recommended for sharpening tungsten carbide cutters where there is not much alternative.

I have in the past used wet and dry glued to plate glass. It works well enough, but has two problems. It is not durable (easily tears) and, because it is attached with spray glue, that in itself can create bumps particularly on the finer grits (I used to go up to 2000 in about 8 grades).

However, and this is why I have mentioned a system that is generally regarded poorly by my peers, I have found it to be the best method for flattening the backs of blades. I have not used it for the soles of planes although I did specifically source a piece of 10mm glass from our friendly glass merchant for just this purpose. I will have to let you know another day if it works for the larger surface.

I have some sheets of 3M microfinishing film that I have had for well over a year and still have not had time to trial.

I am most interested by the paste and I can see that placing it on a suitable and flat surface can be an issue. There are cast iron lapping plates (Carbatec sell one) but these are probably better for flattening backs than sharpening bevels.

How about using your granite blocks? To remove the high gloss surface use some fine (2000/2500) wet and dry. Use it wet and very lightly to remove the glazed surface or at least reduce it to a satin finish. I realise that there is a danger of destroying the flatness, but I think if you go slowly and carefully it should be ok.

Even try one of the Jost abrasives and your ROS, again very lightly on a gentle cycle (sounds like the weekly wash with the woolens and frilly little things that... ..ooops another story). Your idea of using frosted glass could be another way. You would have to source some in heavy plate whereas you already have those magnificent granite blocks.

At the moment I use waterstones (300, 1200, 4500, 6000, 8000 & 10000), but not all of them all the time. It's a bit like marking the olympics. Knock off top and bottom and average the rest:). I keep them in a plastic container immersed in water so they are not time consuming to use.

I also use a veritas sharpening guide, which I find excellent despite the stupitidy of making some parts from mild steel so the wretched thing rusts.

Food for thought. A good, well-researched, practical thread. And of course bound to provoke:cool:.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Thanks for that Paul. I do have another sheet or two or three under the house, so maybe I might experiment with that idea. Actually, theres a nice piece of white marble there - it's much finer grained than the others. I may even try the 600 diamond plate to get a satin finish - that may give an indication of any flatness problems in the marble as well.

[ian]

Brett

you asked me to comment and I apologise I didn't get to this thread earlier.

I don't want to add much to what's already been said, but I will make some observations.

When a plane blade is tensioned on the frog there will be some small distortion of the plane's sole. (for some planes, this distortion can be used to very finely adjust the amount of blade projection) For this reason, I'd advise flattening the sole with the frog firmly in place.

When to stop? 200G or so should be enough -- the plane sole needs to be smooth, not mirror like, and some hollows (provided they're not in critical locations like around the mouth) are OK. Afterall it's the blade that does the work, the plane body is just the blade carrier. Going beyond "flat enough" is time that could have been spend making something.
Defining "flat enough"? Please don't ask me tonight! :)


The blade? well there's
very sharp
sharp,
sharp enough
just sharp enough (which often translates to I should sharpen it but I'll push on a little longer)
needs sharpening, but not right now
blunt

My experience is that these definitions jump around depending on the wood you're working and what you're trying to do AND the mass of the blade carrier.
"Just sharp enough" when cutting end grain becomes sharp or even very sharp when working long grain. (this is based on using a #5 or #9 to shoot an edge just after using the same plane to trim a rail to precise length)
The effect is particularly noticable with shoulder planes -- as teh palne gets lighter, proportionally more time must be spent preparing the blade
The risk is that you obsess about getting mirror flat when, for the wood you're working, you don't need it.


the sharpening kit.
My hand is up -- I have too many stones
I've generally settled on Pro Shapons (I have a lot of A2 blades) -- but I have too many git combinations (you don't need all of 320, 1000, 1500, 2000, 5000, 8000) backed up with a ultra fine ceramic stone for on the job honing.
I do most of my sharpening at the kitchen sink and find the Shapons offer the best combination of speed, minimal mess and rapid cleanup time when I've finished.


Lastly
for me, sharpening was a learning process that took around 6 yaers before I settled on what combination of stones, guides and techniques worked best for me

Don't be surprised if you revist your choices in two or 3 years time

[IanW]

.....there's
very sharp
sharp,
sharp enough
just sharp enough (which often translates to I should sharpen it but I'll push on a little longer)
needs sharpening, but not right now
blunt

My experience is that these definitions jump around depending on the wood you're working and what you're trying to do AND the mass of the blade carrier.
"Just sharp enough" when cutting end grain becomes sharp or even very sharp when working long grain. (this is based on using a #5 or #9 to shoot an edge just after using the same plane to trim a rail to precise length)
The effect is particularly noticable with shoulder planes -- as teh palne gets lighter, proportionally more time must be spent preparing the blade
The risk is that you obsess about getting mirror flat when, for the wood you're working, you don't need it.

Ian - I think this should be printed out & stuck on every shed wall..... :U

And you reminded me that I forgot to mention that I thought polishing of the plane though very pretty, is completely over the top, and a waste of time. The soles of planes suffer from all sorts of things we don't see in & on the wood they travel over - particularly if you use them on our highly siliceous hardwoods. I'm sure I'm in the top 10% of carefulness with my tools, but all my plane soles have myriads of fine scratches on their soles, acquired over years of use. My Clifton smoother has a particularly nasty gouge along 3/4 of the sole cause by the buried leg of a *#*ng staple (in a brand-new door.. :~).

But the soles remain sufficently flat unto the purpose, & the 'satin' finish takes the paraffin that I use to lubricate them better. :U


Don't be surprised if you revist your choices in two or 3 years time

More or less as I ended my comments..... :;

Cheers,

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Ian, thanks for that.


When a plane blade is tensioned on the frog there will be some small distortion of the plane's sole. ...I'd advise flattening the sole with the frog firmly in place.
Yes, I had thought of that (broadly) and did in fact have the frog in place - the pic was a jimmy up later on. I also considered that given the way a plane is held during use, I should probably hold it by handle and knob during flattening, which is what I did (rather than using more pressure in the middle at the top of the cheeks which may give a false reading underneath).


The risk is that you obsess about getting mirror flat when, for the wood you're working, you don't need it.
Know what you mean (but surely one has to have at least one or two obssessions on the go at any one time - a bit like Hardly Normal interest free deals). It was more an exercise to see what happened, and I must say that the time spent from 180g up to 2500 wouldn't have been more than 10 minutes (in full knowledge that it wasn't necessary)


but I have too many git combinations
So does the Forum....:D



Don't be surprised if you revist your choices in two or 3 years time
I doubt it will take that long.

[Pac man]

Rather than handing your plane over to Jim, why not attend TTTG's plane tuning workshop that Jim is leading? It's on the 23rd of September at Strathfield Mens Shed.
That way you get the experience rather than handing it over?

Have no comment on your other info other than there will be a rather large sale on in Katoomba on day!:D

[FenceFurniture]

That's a very good idea Paul, I might just do that.

[Berlin]

FF, reading the sole flattening saga I'm glad I moved to woodies: two or three swipes on 120 and then move on. I don't think I can add anything to what wiser heads said about sharpening kit either but for the lo fi take on it, I only use two water stones 1200 and 5000 (at least I think it's 5000) :shrug: the wood stays cut and i don't seam to struggle with tear out...

Have fun ;)

[artme]

A fascinating journey and well documented, Brett.:):):)

Thank you for sharing.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

In relation to Derek's comments on the substrate to use I have often wondered what to do with diamond paste. aFTER ALL WHAT IS HARDER THAN DIAMOND?

I have some beautiful high quality polished porcelain tiles here that I intend to use for sharpening plates. I will let you know what happens.

[FenceFurniture]

A fascinating journey and well documented, Brett.:):):)

Thank you for sharing.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

In relation to Derek's comments on the substrate to use I have often wondered what to do with diamond paste. aFTER ALL WHAT IS HARDER THAN DIAMOND?

I have some beautiful high quality polished porcelain tiles here that I intend to use for sharpening plates. I will let you know what happens.

Cheers Artme. Last night I dug out a sheet of marble (from my stash of rock sheets). One side had been polished, but the back had not. I used a DMT 220 (well worn) to flatten some areas for use with the Veritas Honing Guide, and Diamond paste. Checked for flatness of the marble with a straightedge and 1 thou feeler gauge. The substrate did work (i.e. it held the paste, to the point of some stiction), but I didn't think the polish was as good as I got from MDF (which is what LV recommends, both verbally and pictorially). Also (and it doesn't really matter much) the cloudy contamination effect from going from water (from the Tormek and the DMT plate) to the oil in the paste, was more pronounced. Today I went back to the MDF, and verified that I wasn't dreaming: the polish was far superior.

The marble was an experiment, to approximate what I might get from another hard, non-porous surface such as the honing plates from LV (which I presume are mild steel: described as "Low Carbon", or indeed the etched glass that I dreamt up the other day.

Just on that note, I read that glass is around 700 Vickers, and mild steel is less than 200 (can that be right??). The point being that if that's the case, glass would surely wear better than mild steel, and the paste retention qualities would probably be identical (pending perhaps some special grooves in the LV plates - I've not seen one in captivity).

Anyway, I think I'll settle on MDF on top of the marble (for flatness) for the moment. It needs recharging slightly more often than the marble (as you'd prolly expect), but you can add a drop of Camellia Oil if it dries out too much (the MDF will absorb the original oil in the paste of course). I'd say that you'd use max 15% more paste than with a non-porous surface. After all, it's only the small part of a hollow ground bevel (flattening is done once more or less). Plus the fact that these 5g syringes from Gemcuts are 40% of the price from LV (forget about freight - they weigh 5 grams!).

Your tiles might be an excellent choice for the PSA backed diamond sheets.

Cheers
Brett

[derekcohen]

Hi Brett

Marble is out. Glass in out.

They are too hard. As a result, the diamond grits simply rolls around on top. This has consequences - you will wear away the substrate as you wear away the steel. It will also not wear the steel evenly as the grit is not held captive.

MDF is better than marble you conclude - but that is like saying my head hurts less when I stop butting the wall. MDF is not suitable for diamond as the grits is swallowed up.

There is a good reason why cast iron and mild steel are the recommended mediums for diamond paste - they actually capture the grits, which means a longer lasting honing medium.

Why not try one out?

Tiles for the diamond mesh? That may be an excellent choice. Just check first that they are flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Matt, yeah I'm really trying to keep it simple as it can be - I know that might sound crazy looking at the shopping list, but how else do you find out (first hand)?? Where I could I selected things that would or may have other uses, if they came second place for this sharpening task.

On a quick other note, pkjames got me a Woodriver BU block plane direct from China. There are some Chinese characteristics about it (the cap lever feels like chromed plastic), and the knobs are a little nasty, but after hollow grinding and then going through the MDF/paste routine I was shocked at the finish it left on Douglas Fir. Better than anything I've described below, and then the same on Spotty. Quite stunning really, and all of $43 worth of plane.

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Brett

Marble is out. Glass in out.

They are too hard. As a result, the diamond grits simply rolls around on top. This has consequences - you will wear away the substrate as you wear away the steel. It will also not wear the steel evenly as the grit is not held captive.

MDF is better than marble you conclude - but that is like saying my head hurts less when I stop butting the wall. MDF is not suitable for diamond as the grits is swallowed up.

There is a good reason why cast iron and mild steel are the recommended mediums for diamond paste - they actually capture the grits, which means a longer lasting honing medium.

Why not try one out?

Tiles for the diamond mesh? That may be an excellent choice. Just check first that they are flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek, fair enough. That was funny though, except my head hurts again Doctor!

Well yeah, as you say, trying out is to find out for one's self. I'm just fresh out of Waldorfs steel plates atm. AND they cost almost as much again with freight. Are they a smooth surface or are there some delibarately left grinding marks to hold a little paste? (you can see that I'm sold on diamond paste - those Lobsters might end up in Hot Water yet:U).

Another thing, what would you roughly estimate the running cost of paste v mesh? Would you say that the paste was a bit cheaper. Again, if that's the case, then with Gemcuts pastes that skews it even more in the paste direction.

[ian]

Hi Derek, fair enough. That was funny though, except my head hurts again Doctor!

Well yeah, as you say, trying out is to find out for one's self. I'm just fresh out of Waldorfs steel plates atm. AND they cost almost as much again with freight. Are they a smooth surface or are there some delibarately left grinding marks to hold a little paste? (you can see that I'm sold on diamond paste - those Lobsters might end up in Hot Water yet:U).

Another thing, what would you roughly estimate the running cost of paste v mesh? Would you say that the paste was a bit cheaper. Again, if that's the case, then with Gemcuts pastes that skews it even more in the paste direction.Brett
I haven't looked with magnification, but what everyone describes with using diamonds corresponds with the diamonds embedding in the substrate -- one point down to keep them in place, one point up to do the work
if the substrate is too soft the diamonds will dissapear from site, if too hard the diamonds will roll around and wear both surfaces down

[FenceFurniture]

Yes I see Ian, the middle "sweet spot" of hardness if you like.

[derekcohen]

Hi Brett

You are desperate to emulate Basil Fawlty, aren't you? :U

I do not consider the diamond mesh to be suitable for a permanent sharpening set up. They are too fragile for rough work. On the other hand they make a fantastic travelling system, which is how I mainly use mine.

I've been using diamond paste for some years now. The reason I keep returning to waterstones is because the latter are easier to use in my workshop. I have a sink with water. It takes no time to prepare a waterstone and then use it. All this is out of the way. Diamond paste is good - essential on some steels - but the oily paste is messy and gets under fingernails and threatens to stain wood. Waterstones, when lubricated with a little liquid soap in the water, cleans up easily.

Go out and experiment as much as you can. Don't take our words for it. You will only learn by making your own mistakes, and then achieving your own victories.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

... You will only learn by making your own mistakes, and then achieving your own victories.

Regards from Perth

Derek:whs:
well put Derek

[FenceFurniture]

Ha - the weird thing is Cleese has an uncanny resemblance to my father (in looks only I might add - I provide the rest).

Yes, experimentation is where I'm at alright. O'course, had I asked some direct questions beforehand I may well have ended up with one of those honing plates, but I didn't and so naturally I'm working with what I have to hand now. Certainly I can see that with running water and a draining board, stones would be much more friendly. My enemy is space, and ipso facto benchspace. What would be absolutely fantastic is an island bench with a granite top and a sink with running water (and hot water too please - this is Katoomba). That would be crazy useful for all manner of things.

[Horaldic]

G'Day Brett

Sorry, it's taken me a while to get to this, work's eaten all of my spare time of late.

Much of my response echoes what others have said and you've already received much valuable feedback. I'll add a few observations.

I concur with the others that your methodology will most likely change with experience. I grew up on a small farm, was given an axe at 6 and through experimentation and observation learned how to keep that shaving sharp. I used an ordinary dry grinder and oilstones when sharpening my woodworking tools for many years. They were what my father and his father used and for a long while I was happy with the results. My practice changed when that set up became ineffective and inefficient with more abrasion-resistant blade materials and a larger collection of tools.

I tried diamond plates for sharpening and was very disappointed. They were initially highly efficient but lacked the longevity I expected from such an expensive piece of kit. There's a post I made referencing that experience somewhere on these forums. I still use diamond plates but only to flatten my waterstones.

I've used waterstones for a while now but wasn't that impressed when I first started. I thought they were good on some materials but ineffective on others. I certainly didn't get the upgrade over oilstones I was expecting. However, I read a bit more, asked a few questions, and ended up with a different set better matched to the range of tool steels I have and my methods of work. I've found that in systematic use this set of stones is excellent. However, this relates directly to how I work. I'm often sharpening a dozen chisels and the same number of plane blades in a session. Whilst I own power tools and use them when they are the efficient means of performing a task, I naturally gravitate to hand methods and avoid sanding as much as possible. The consequence of this is more sharpening so I need an efficient repeatable method and have a space in my workshop set aside.

When flattening the back of blades I go to work on any new tool and, based largely on intuition, work the back flat some way up. There's no 20mm or 10mm rule in my shed, I'd say most are very flat an inch up but the level of polish depends on what the tool's used for. I'm not mirror polishing the whole of that flat but the intention is to set the tool up for long-term use so that most subsequent sharpening requires minimal work.

As to gaps in your selection, at some point a woodworker will need to remove material in bulk when sharpening; some sort of grinder is the most efficient means of doing this. Sharpening woodworking tools, especially the thinner-bladed ones, on a standard grinder requires skill and experience; it's easy to damage the tempering/heat treatment. The combination of a slow speed grinder and wet grinder is the safest means of removing bulk material in terms of protecting tools and having minimal reliance on the skill and judgment of the operator. As my eyesight gets a little poorer and there are fewer competing demands on the family budget I'll probably move to this but at the moment I am very careful and patient in my use of an ordinary grinder albeit fitted with an alox wheel.

If you are happy with the way your rehabbing of the plane body has gone, stay with that technique. I use machinist's methods: prussian blue, a reference flat and a bit of mucking about. After this I remove the marks by passing the plane over a couple of different grits of wet and dry off the roll glued to a thick piece of plate glass. This is sprinkled with a few drops of detergent and wet down. I then return to the reference fIat to ensure I haven't dubbed the edges. In my view a polished sole on a plane is unnecessary, from a technical perspective it could have no discernible effect on the quality of output. It takes time and materials to achieve and will then be marred the first time you plane up a nice piece of spotted gum and hence annoy you. However, it's your time and they are your tools, so don't let anyone talk you out of what you are doing if you feel it's working for you. You will only be flattening plane soles infrequently, unless you are considering selling fettled planes, so the efficiency of the methodology is hardly material.

I hope this is of help.

Horaldic

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[FenceFurniture]

Thanks very much for that Horaldic, all good input. I finished another plane sole yesterday, and stopped at 80 grit. There was no difference in friction on the wood, particularly after waxing the sole.

[Bushmiller]

The combination of a slow speed grinder and wet grinder is the safest means of removing bulk material in terms of protecting tools and having minimal reliance on the skill and judgment of the operator. As my eyesight gets a little poorer and there are fewer competing demands on the family budget I'll probably move to this but at the moment I am very careful and patient in my use of an ordinary grinder albeit fitted with an alox wheel.


Horaldic



Horaldic

A very well constructed post. :)

I have heard at least one well known toolmaker comment that a standard bench grinder is adequate to profile a chisel or plane blade. You have to know what you are doing, be aware not to draw the temper and above all be patient.

Regards
Paul

[pkjames]

wow, brett, tks very much for sharing your sharpening adventure.

i had a chat with the chap from the LN stand during sydney TWWW show, as he was selling stones as well. i asked his opinion about how much grit should one really go to, he rekon between 6000 to 10000 is definitely usable while 15000+ is probably "because of i can type" (which he said he would go that high).

i have no doubt going really high grit its better and getting silky smooth shavings is such a joy, yet i always doubt the sharp edge can last very long in dealing with our aussie hardwood, so i want to hear everyone's opinion on how sharp you think is the sweet spot between decent results and less resharpening. since as much as i'd sit there sharpening the blades for my knives, chisels, planes, scissors all day, i really don't have enough time in the shed ;(

[FenceFurniture]

wow, brett, tks very much for sharing your sharpening adventure.

i had a chat with the chap from the LN stand during sydney TWWW show, as he was selling stones as well. i asked his opinion about how much grit should one really go to, he rekon between 6000 to 10000 is definitely usable while 15000+ is probably "because of i can type" (which he said he would go that high).

i have no doubt going really high grit its better and getting silky smooth shavings is such a joy, yet i always doubt the sharp edge can last very long in dealing with our aussie hardwood, so i want to hear everyone's opinion on how sharp you think is the sweet spot between decent results and less resharpening. since as much as i'd sit there sharpening the blades for my knives, chisels, planes, scissors all day, i really don't have enough time in the shed ;(

Hi James

The only input I can provide to that is "the sharper it is, the longer it will stay sharp", so in theory going up to (say) 14,000 should mean a little less frequent return to sharpening.

As for the opinions of the wise heads, there will be a wide variety of answers, not dissimilar to the various inputs to this thread (and all valid). So, I think I can probably say that after any input from others you'll be left with "whatever works best for you" and that means try it out. Certainly I think there is pretty broad consensus that you should go to 6000/8000, and frankly 14,000 is only one minor step above that (and the cost of the paste for that step is very very low).

I must say that going through to 14,000 takes no time at all, especially the last two steps of 8k and 14k (30 seconds for each roughly). Therefore I'm inclined to go the extra minute.

With regard to the back of blades my thoughts are that it's no real big deal to go as high as you want, because it's a once only operation.

With regard to the soles, I've been cured of an obssession there (feel much better thanks) - the difference between 80g and 2500g was nil (with or without wax). IIRC most were saying you can stop at about 220g. Mind you, that 80g sheet I used had already been around the block a few times, so the finish was probably closer to 120/150g.

HTH
Brett

[BobL]

Hi James

The only input I can provide to that is "the sharper it is, the longer it will stay sharp", so in theory going up to (say) 14,000 should mean a little less frequent return to sharpening.


One consideration for this sort of thing is the law of diminishing returns, so that the time taken to hone a blade eventually will not be recovered in a reduced time between sharpening. This is because the finer the edge generated the quicker it is knocked or chipped off the blade. Unless it's softwood I doubt that any the time spent above about ~8000 or maybe 10,000 on woodworking tools is ever really recovered.

[FenceFurniture]

Yes, point taken Bob. And further to your argument - is anyone ever going to really quantify the results (apart from Brent Beach)? I doubt it, so again, it reverts to personal choice.

As so many have said already (IanW in particular) the time for experimentation has to come to an end, so as to get on with the real show. Find a system that works for you, modify it, streamline it, and above all stay receptive to new ideas, techniques and products. David Charlesworth changed the lives of countless woodworkers with his ridiculously simple "ruler trick". That was sitting there waiting to be discovered (like all progress in the scientific world - the answers are there, we just have to stumble on them, or deduce them).

Another good example is Rob Cosman - in that video where he takes a new LN out of the box, a quick hone on 1000 Shapton, and then straight to 30,000 and into the wood. You couldn't argue with the shaving he produced. As I recall, the whole process took less than a minute.

In the absence of trying a low carbon honing plate, my quest has at least reached a hiatus. What I have now works well for me - it's quick, pretty clean, reasonably low cost entry (if I had just started with what I finished with), and reasonably cheap to run.

[IanW]

...........the finer the edge generated the quicker it is knocked or chipped off the blade....

Bob, you may get some debate about that statement. If you mean the more acute the angle, the more fragile the edge, I would not demur. But received wisdom is that the finer the scratches (i.e. the finer the polish), the more durable the edge.

This is because, supposedly, you are approaching a more 'perfect' line where the two planes intesect. Instead of the jagged mess you see on high-power micrographs of honed edges, you have more metal forming the intersection. The attainable perfection of said line is limited by the size of the cutting particles & also the 'grain' structure of the material, of course. Perhaps the latter really sets the point at which using finer grits becomes a waste of time?

I also live by t'other Ian's adage, that there is 'sharp enough', & it varies according to the tool & the job in hand. I spend a lot more time on smoothing plane blades & paring chisels than most other edges. But I obsere the law of diminishing returns in most other cases.... :U

Cheers,

[ch!ppy]

As a relatively newcomer to woodworking, I have one advantage in learning techniques, and that is that I’m not stuck in certain sharpening rituals / techniques or choices of medium and method.

i'm not sure how to interpret that Brett, to flip it over the other side, is that to say a long term 'woodworker' is stuck in their sharpening rituals :):wink:

whilst that could always be a possibility, largely i dont think so, perhaps even more than the newcomer someone with experience can look at something with a critical eye and make an educated guess or an informed decision that its a waste of time, gimmicky, worthwhile or has some tradeoffs, or, it might just be the bee knee's so worth a try, of course someone thats been doing it for a while may have tried some of the other methods already as well and decided against them for whatever reason.

in some ways i do prefer old methods/systems but i can happily adopt or try out new methods as well, e.g on one hand i have taken on a new machine and system in the lapsharp, i think that demonstrates not stuck in old ways. on the other hand i still like old oil stones, particularly for on site (still nice in the workshop though), and a dry grinder is always useful, hand cranked is particularly useful on site. nothing wrong with wetstones, they are very effective, some have good stepping stone grit range, they are readily available everywhere nowadays which is handy and i tend to think they might be more earth friendly not digging up whats becoming hard to get high quality oil stones, and if people are used to or happy with that system theres no reason to change but i'm not keen on em, the mess with oil stones doesnt bother me at all, i actually find it quite clean in weird sort of way and relaxing to use if i have heap of honing to do, easy to transport too

not that keen on ultra fine diamond pastes or mesh sheets, diamond i find more useful to keep it for coarser grades or i touch up tungsten with it, oxides i find better if i have to use a paste.

abrasives arnt as enjoyable as using oil stones imo but they are very quick and effective so long as you are using the right ones, i've said in other posts which ones have advantages or not so i'm not going to repeat myself again. when ever possible i much prefer to flat grind, for some tools it makes a big difference, others not so much and others it depends on the circumstances whether its even slightly noticeable. i dont find there is any advantage to a hollow grind blade, its simply not as strong and for turning tools and a number of others just adds problems imo, if someone hasnt already invested in machinery e.g tormek or the like and your able to set up (afford) for flat grind in a workshop then it seems a no brainer to me. in times gone past you didnt have much of a choice due to wheels being about the only thing available to people, nowadays thats not the case and it seems the newcomers are the ones stuck in the old ways. of course from a financial pov for someone starting out a dry grinder and something to hone on is still about the cheapest entry point set up you can have so nothing wrong with that. people rave on about less steel to hone on hollow grind but its never been a problem for me and the ruler 'trick' i never use, its not really a new thing either, not sure why people think it is, we used to just call it lazy, ruff or cheating, go figure :D


might sound a tad controversial, but you did ask :D there just my views, thought i would pass em on for better or worse, no doubt others disagree and if others are happy with their system, thats fine with me, and different set ups work better in different situations/environments for various reasons and while its possible people develop or change their minds on what they like to use, for me i tend to use different systems due to the area or set up i find myself in, or if i was dead broke at the time!:p


cheers
chippy

[ch!ppy]

. . . The attainable perfection of said line is limited by the size of the cutting particles & also the 'grain' structure of the material, of course. Perhaps the latter really sets the point at which using finer grits becomes a waste of time? . . .



Cheers,

yeah, definitely, think i have mentioned before, but many of the steels just wont take an edge from the high grits (or small micron) abrasives. it really is a waste of time...

[Berlin]

.

On a quick other note, pkjames got me a Woodriver BU block plane direct from China. There are some Chinese characteristics about it (the cap lever feels like chromed plastic), and the knobs are a little nasty, but after hollow grinding and then going through the MDF/paste routine I was shocked at the finish it left on Douglas Fir. Better than anything I've described below, and then the same on Spotty. Quite stunning really, and all of $43 worth of plane.

Well that's a bargain for sure :) however, I meant I use wooden planes not woodrivers. Sorry, i could have been clearer.

I forgot to mention one other occasional visiter in my sharpening process - a 25mm thick piece of alluminium plate. I got it to build a little etching press that still hasn't happened. It would hold your honing paste and if you're butter fingered and manage to drop the corner of a chisel on it'd be more forgiving than steel or marble...

[FenceFurniture]

Thanks Chippy. To be clear, what I meant was not that experience are necessarily stuck in their ways, but that some can be, and because I'm new that's not a possibility.

No, I don't don't use the ruler trick either, although I have once or twice in the last year or so.

I would have expected someone such as yourself to have a couple of different methods, depending on on workshop or site work.

Cheers
Brett

[FenceFurniture]

..... however, I meant I use wooden planes not woodrivers...

I understood that you meant wooden, Matt

[ian]

I have heard at least one well known toolmaker comment that a standard bench grinder is adequate to profile a chisel or plane blade. You have to know what you are doing, be aware not to draw the temper and above all be patient. profiling the grinder's wheel to a radius helps to control the process. the profile means that only part of the wheel is in contact with the blade, reducing the amount of steel in contact with the blade and hence the risk of overheating. Derek has written here or on his site about it.

[Superbunny]

Well I did what FenceFurniture did and got me some diamond paste and had a go on some chisels then on my new Veritas router plane blades straight out of the box.

All I can say is that FenceFurniture is the new god of diamond sharpening. I ordered 8000 and 14000 paste and had a go tonight on MDF. I was impressed, the chisels are BAFB (beyond all FXXXing belief) scary sharp and I got a mirror shine. I then had a go at the Veritas router plane blades. After working on the backs with waterstones starting at 400 then moving through 1000 then up to 4000, I went for the 8000 diamond paste. Well did I get a nice surprise so on with the 14000 paste. I'm hooked for life and so easy with little mess. If I can find out what to replace my 400 to 4000 waterstones with diamond plates or paste I'll be a happy man.

Sorry, I know this will upset someone with a different method but this is the way I'm going.:D:D

SB

[FenceFurniture]

G'day SB, I'm really chuffed that you got a benefit out of all this. Seeing the first one come up to mirror is a revelation (of ease) isn't it? More than anything it's the lack of mess and the quick setup/down that has me hooked.

Gemcuts have the paste in
100
280
325
600
1200
1800
3000
8000
14000
50000
100000

and they're all the same price.

I will get a 600 I think, to go after the 600 DMT plate (I suspect they are not identical).

[Bushmiller]

I was impressed, the chisels are BAFB (beyond all FXXXing belief) scary sharp and I got a mirror shine.
SB

BAFB. That must be from the same latin derivative as FUBAR:wink:, which is possibly how the chisels started.

Good to hear you had a good result.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

profiling the grinder's wheel to a radius helps to control the process. the profile means that only part of the wheel is in contact with the blade, reducing the amount of steel in contact with the blade and hence the risk of overheating. Derek has written here or on his site about it.

Ian

That's interesting. I was re-reading your post again. One of the problems of profiling a grinding wheel is that immediately after having adapted it to the specific purpose you need it back for the original standard use.

Of course the answer is to have a wheel that is just interchanged as required. Then I remembered I have about thirty such wheels. I bought them from a sawmill that was closing down. They had used them on the gullets for their bandsaws so the edges are a full round (make that 180 deg).

I also remembered why I hadn't used them. They have a larger diameter hole than my bench grinders and some of the wheels are too large a diameter:(.

However I might have to borrow Brett's thinking cap, if he hasn't worn it out, and come up with a solution. Oh, and the wheels are probably a little on the coarse side so I would have to stop any grinding in good time. I aim for about 1mm to go normally.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

...They have a larger diameter hole than my bench grinders and some of the wheels are too large a diameter:(....
Does the answer not lie within your name?

[Bushmiller]

Does the answer not lie within your name?

:D.

Did you ever watch a child's cartoon programme called Banana Man? Banana man, a superhero, had a mentor in the form of a crow, who typically sat on his shoulder and offered advice. The crow would offer advice and Banana Man would respond with an exaggerated "Ooh Yeees!"

That makes you the crow:p:D.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Does the answer not lie within your name?
That's apPauling!

[Pac man]

Ian

That's interesting. I was re-reading your post again. One of the problems of profiling a grinding wheel is that immediately after having adapted it to the specific purpose you need it back for the original standard use.

Of course the answer is to have a wheel that is just interchanged as required. Then I remembered I have about thirty such wheels. I bought them from a sawmill that was closing down. They had used them on the gullets for their bandsaws so the edges are a full round (make that 180 deg).

I also remembered why I hadn't used them. They have a larger diameter hole than my bench grinders and some of the wheels are too large a diameter:(.

However I might have to borrow Brett's thinking cap, if he hasn't worn it out, and come up with a solution. Oh, and the wheels are probably a little on the coarse side so I would have to stop any grinding in good time. I aim for about 1mm to go normally.

Regards
Paul

Suprising that the answer wasnt " you can buy it at .... hang on who else needs one.. I'll organise a group buy ":D

[FenceFurniture]

Suprising that the answer wasnt " you can buy it at .... hang on who else needs one.. I'll organise a group buy ":D
I don't think Bushmiller wants to sell though.:D

[ian]

to expand on my earlier comment
profiling the grinder's wheel to a radius helps to control the process. the profile means that only part of the wheel is in contact with the blade, reducing the amount of steel in contact with the blade and hence the risk of overheating. Derek has written here or on his site about it.
from FineWoodworking
... The key to the grinding technique is a slight curve across the edge of the wheel (see illustration below), as opposed to the flat edge most people think is right. You'll need a wheel dresser to create that curve, and to reshape it when the center wears down.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/uploadedimages/Fine_Woodworking_Network/Image_Resources/Web_Only/dressing-the-wheel.jpg

[Pac man]

Thanks for reminding me ian.

Its a good article from Joel Moskowicz from the May june 2008 edition pages 62 -67. You can read it by getting a trial version of the subscription then viewing the article.

[Chris Parks]

I have a question for the experts, does diamond paste vary in quality from different suppliers?

[Superbunny]

I have a question for the experts, does diamond paste vary in quality from different suppliers?

What a good question, I'd like to know.:D::D

SB

[FenceFurniture]

I have a question for the experts, does diamond paste vary in quality from different suppliers?

Not for me to answer Chris, but I do know that any diamond product is superior if it's mono crystaline (i.e not a smaller bunch of crystals glued together to make a coarser grit). That's why the coarser grits can be more expensive in mono.

[Robson Valley]

I would expect the diamond paste to vary, depending on how it was made. Silly to imagine a uniform particle size, plain as that.
They can tell you some nominal particle size ( eg 0.25 micron). BUT, the difference will be the range of particle sizes in the goop. +/- 0.25 micron for one supplier, +/- 0.5 micron from another.

As a short note added in proof, I used diamond knives in a past life. $1,500.00/mm of edge. $1,500.00/mm of edge to get it sharpened. And you want to try to do what? with steel?

[pmcgee]

I read something about average particle size in diamond paste recently ...
No idea now ... but the figure given is an average particle size and the discussion was relating to what the maximum size might be in different brands.

Here's one chart as an example: Diamond micron powder - 0-0.5 micron (http://www.china-superabrasives.com/diamond-micron-powder/diamond-micron-powder-0-0.5.htm)

http://www.china-superabrasives.com/images/diamond%20micron%20powder/0-0.5/Diamond-micron-powder-0-0.5.jpg

And a fairly old spreadsheet that I might have already posted:
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CEkQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstraightrazorplace.com%2Fattachments%2Fhoning%2F24914d1242610332-grit-mesh-micron-conversion-grit-comparison-5-17-09.pdf&ei=E4xAUOi0DtCViAeSxYHgBA&usg=AFQjCNE0DSQWxGoA6qLNltaihfiM2ZB5qQ&sig2=Yky_97WS7gSqft9OwhfUFQ

[jamarpa]

OMH, what a great thread. But to take it back to something IanW said.


So go at it, but don't get so involved in sharpening you forget to make things... :U


There is something being made. Some of the most beautiful shavings I have ever seen. I used my old trusty chinese cheapo plane for the first time in several years and got carried away making shavings. Been a long time.

Now off to learn more.

btw, omh is an Australian version of omg. Oh My Hat. :doh2:

[pmcgee]

Thanks for reminding me ian.

Its a good article from Joel Moskowicz from the May june 2008 edition pages 62 -67. You can read it by getting a trial version of the subscription then viewing the article.

I hope I can put this here ...

[pmcgee]

I initially thought that if I chipped in here I'd be the joker in the pack ... but I think I would more accurately be described as a Pokemon card. :)

Also I need to say Brett that it took me about a week before I had even read to the end of your initial posts, so damn fine job putting your thoughts together.

I haven't chipped into this thread in the sharpening section because I don't know that I can improve the discussion. In fact I'm pretty sure I could drag it down a notch or two :) In the two years or so that I have been accumulating old planes and trying to learn about them and sharpen and use them, I've only had a brief encounter with waterstones. I have seen them used by David Charlesworth, Chris Schwarz, the demo guy for LN, etc etc but I just got a gut feeling that I didn't connect philosophically with them when they are so prone to dishing.

Along with the old woodies that I started off buying I also bought some old carborundum oilstones as they came up - and most of my learning to sharpen up to this point has been with them. Recently I have found nicer old oilstones, but it wasn't that long - in the beginning - before I managed to sharpen a plane blade to some degree of sharpness and plane a 2"x2"x12" piece of jarrah smooth enough that I kept it by my laptop for the next week or three.

So I guess that feeling I could achieve what I felt I would want/need to in the future, I haven't investigated much beyond the simple stuff I have now.

Having said that, I have had a long-term objective of doing some carving 'one day', and been buying some carving tools over the last 6-8 months. Then at our wood show I met some people from the WA Carvers Guild, and have been going to the local group on monday morning now for a few weeks. I sat with my as-were carving tools over the course of a week or so at night getting them into a working condition - using my oilstones - and it worked out pretty well (for a beginner).

I should say that re plane blades I had 'tried' stropping with an old leather belt and not noticed any benefit, so I would now-a-days just 'strop' it on my palm like the older books say. It was at the carving group that I was introduced to the green CrO2 on the leather (which of course I had heard of) and I've been very impressed at the difference it makes in finishing and then freshening an edge.

The carving guys liked the old tools,and thought it very 'quaint' (they are pretty polite) that I would be sharpening with the oilstones. Although they liked the smell of the baby oil at least :) They basically use coarse, fine and extra-fine Dia-sharp diamond plates (used dry) - some of which the club have - plus stropping on leather or mdf or spinning shaped motorised mdf discs. I have used these yesterday to sharpen a couple of V-tools that I hadn't succeeded with before and I can see the attraction. But I still like the oilstones also.

This started off being a reply back to Toby re the tools I was using on the Oregon workbench - which are in a normal sort of state for me in my development so far. My laptop wallpaper picture is of one of Ron Brese's planes with a thin full-width ribbon of shaving about 12" long or more that it has produced. I have never produced a (full width) shaving like that in my life, but I don't have any ambition to in particular. My guess is that I can get along to do what I want with roughly what I am doing now ... but time and more experience may make me eat those words.

Oops - I meant to say - seeing what the CrO2 could do for me (apparently about equivalent to 0.5 micron or a 8000 japanese stone) - I understand more about the discussion over diamond paste etc - but I think I'll just go with the crayon.

When it's written I'll put a link here to my (possibly horrifying) blades that I planned on talking about to Toby.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f213/outdoor-workbench-158196/index2.html#post1546613

Thanks,
Paul

[derekcohen]

Not for me to answer Chris, but I do know that any diamond product is superior if it's mono crystaline (i.e not a smaller bunch of crystals glued together to make a coarser grit). That's why the coarser grits can be more expensive in mono.

Brett, I would debate that point now. A few years ago I would have said the same as you. Indeed, a recent discussion on this topic on WoodCentral has renewed my thinking on the matter.

A major user of monocrstaline diamond is DMT. I will not purchase any more of their plates. They simply do not last well (I must emphasise that this is sujective opinion supported a number of others whose opinion I value). As I understand, the shape of the monocrystaline edges are less multifaceted than the polycrystaline types of diamond, as used by Eze-lap. My DMT stones lasted about 18 months on average. My EZ is still going strong after 10 years. Others report the same. What we think is happening is that the polycrystals offer another sharp edge after the mono have been rounded off.

In paste there are two issues: the first is whether mono or poly is used. But probably the deciding factor is the concentration of the grit in the paste itself. This varies from one seller to another. Cheap is more likely to have a low concentration. You get what you pay for.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Superbunny]

My EZ is still going strong after 10 years.
Derek

Thanks for the tip Derek, I just ordered one.:D:D

SB

[Gumbungle]

It's nice (well not really) to find someone else who has had problems with DMT stones - I'm still in shock from lightly dressing my Spyderco ceramic stones under running water, and then noticing a distinct lack of diamond in some areas on my DuoSharp extra coarse/coarse stone. The look and sound is now distinctly different in some areas.
I know dressing ceramic with diamond will wear the diamond, but it happened almost immediately.
People on razor sharpening forums talk of using diamond stone-flattened ceramic stones to whet cut-throat razors and I thought I would go down that path for a better edge on my plane blades.

I emailed DMT and to their great credit, they told me to send it back for assessment, but I haven't yet.

[Pac man]

to expand on my earlier comment
from FineWoodworking
... The key to the grinding technique is a slight curve across the edge of the wheel (see illustration below), as opposed to the flat edge most people think is right. You'll need a wheel dresser to create that curve, and to reshape it when the center wears down.


Joel has had some further thoughts on grinding (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/453/title/Further%20Thoughts%20On%20Grinding) on his blog

[Superbunny]

I have received some sintered diamond stones from japan and been experimenting with these and diamond paste. I can tell you I have some scary sharp blades. I started with the 600 then 1000 and on to the 6000 diamond stones. I finished with 8000 followed by 14000 diamond paste on MDF. I can say this method is not completly without mess but much more cleaner than using water stones. What I liked apart from their sharpness is I can see my face quite clearly almost like a mirror in the bevel edge and it took little effort. Now some of you will have seen these pics in the handtools unpowered sub forum but for the rest of you it is my new Veritas Block plane that I'm in love with at the moment. After receiving it I sharpened it with the process mentioned above and then gave it ago. The shaving if you look closely, you can see through it. I can attest it is still shaving very well after use over two weeks off and on. This may say something about Veritsa blades but I bet it has something also to do with the nice and scary sharp blade.:D:D

SB

[Chris Parks]

A thread from the dead. I note that FF (Brett) recently posted about his dislike of water stones in another thread and for some reason I was reading this thread in which he made the same point two years ago. Elsewhere in this thread the point was made that sharpening is a journey in which we experiment and change our methods as we learn and I was wondering if Brett has made any radical changes. I guess I am going through the same thing now and am interested in the whole "journey" thing. Any thoughts form anyone else going through the same process of learning and the changes they have made over the years would be welcome also.

[FenceFurniture]

Chris i still feel (and use) exactly the same about diamond paste on blocks. Reckon I can get the job finished before a waterstone has even been soaked long enough. As Superbunny points out, it is not entirely mess free with paste (you get a bit of black crap on your fingertips) but it's SO much easier to clean up than water everywhere, grit and slurry everywhere (and that is a big PITA). You can use a block for two different pastes, so the storage is halved, and the BIG thing for someone just coming in is that the start up costs are much much lower, as are the ongoing costs.

[Chris Parks]

I have changed from using paper to diamond plates to a Worksharp and diamond paste on MDF. I recently bought a lapping plate to see if it was any better than MDF with the paste but haven't used it yet. I am also going to get some diamond discs for the Worksharp to see how they go as all the reports I have read rate them very highly. I also recently gave in and ordered Stuart's recommended stone set from Japan Tools along with the Atoma diamond plate but they have only been used to sharpen a few knives so the jury is still out on these. I rate the Worksharp very highly to get the initial bulk of the work done but some have trouble doing the backs of chisels without leaving deep marks in them from the edge of the disc.

As for slow grinders there are a couple of options which I might try. Firstly a three phase grinder with a vfd would work and as I have three phase I don't have to change the motor configuration. The next is a belt driven grinding pedestal and change the pulley sizes but I suspect that the pulleys could not be changed enough to get the required speed so the VFD will get the nod there. Also a cheap wet grinder, toss the water bath and put a CBN wheel on it (Delbs did this??) but I always thought they would be too slow but would be happy to be proven wrong. I tossed one out some years ago as it was a useless piece of rubbish I had been given but now I see the possibilities, oh well such is life.

I can see how people constantly change because they have an interest in sharpening but all I want is a method that works quickly with no mucking around for me and beyond that the interest stops.

[FenceFurniture]

I had a Worksharp (2000?) which was the cheaper one. I found it impossible to get the chisel onto it without gouging the back (this was just for back flattening of course). Getting a chisel perfectly co-planar suspended above a spinning disc, and then not changing the planes as it is lowered? I doubt a neurosurgeon could do that.

It was sold.

[FenceFurniture]

To new readers of this thread - unfortunately the pics all went awol in a forum upgrade earlier this year. This happened in quite a number of threads, and they are still being discovered.

[silentC]

The thing about sharpening, in my humble opinion, is to choose a method and become proficient in it to the point that you no longer spend your time pondering whether or not it is the 'best way'. That's because there isn't one. The results speak for themselves, and if you can get those results using paste on blocks of MDF, then that is fantastic.

Personally, I was a convert to water stones 10 years ago and still use them. I have a foam box that they are kept in, always sitting in water. It's a matter of seconds to take the lid off and turn it upside down, sitting the first stone on it. The lid has a raised lip which contains the mess. When I'm finished, it goes back on the box and the mess goes with it. Of course you occasionally need to flatten your stones, but this is not a difficult process with a bit of sandpaper and something flat, like a piece of glass. I actually use a chunk of 15mm thick cement sheet.

I have an old washing machine motor mounted horizontally to which I have fastened a grinding wheel. It has a small table flush with the wheel. I mount my chisel or plane blade in my Veritas sharpening jig and set it for 30 degrees. I then slide the base to the 3rd detent which gives an angle of roughly 25 degrees and I use this to apply the clearance bevel (if it needs one, only done every few months actually). I can then move the base back to the first detent again, without removing the blade from the jig and I'm back to 30 degrees. Then I apply this to the 1000 grit stone until I have a burr all the way along the edge of the blade. Then I go to the 2000 grit and then to the 5000. I stop there. There was a time when I mucked about with green crayons and bits of MDF or leather but I have found that this is sharp enough for my purposes.

It is the results that matter most to me and I have found that this method is quick, easy, repeatable and gives me the results I need. There may well be some Holy Grail of sharpening out there but I just concentrated on getting good with what I had and now it's just one of those chores you have to do every so often and beyond that, never given a thought.

But if you were to go back through this forum, you would find that I did spend PLENTY of time talking about it a few years ago. :)