8000 grit Waterstone alternative?

[Tiger]

I've used an 8000 grit waterstone only once and was impressed by the sharpness of the edge it gave me. I don't like waterstones as much as other sharpening materials because of the mess. Are there any good alternatives to this stone?

[Macleod]

I've got an oil stone that my fathers had since the 80s. I'd say I would rather a water stone than an oil one because you tend to need more oil for it then you would if you had a water one. Plus oil obviously costs more than water lol..

[Tiger]

Yes but can you get an oilstone with an 8000 grit?

[snafuspyramid]

Oilstones don't offer an equivalent to 8000 grit, which is why most who use oilstones use a leather strop as a final honing medium.

Stropping is cheap and works well.

Another option is diamond films, but these generally aren't used for such a high grit level because, unlike aluminium oxide abrasives, the particles do not break down to a finer grit as you work.

There is also a whole range of fancy waterstones that bear no resemblance to the muddy King or Lobster brands you have in mind. These work very fast, require only a dainty splash of water immediately before use and are generally less messy than oilstones, trust me. Check out toolsfromjapan.com. However they cost a lot and won't play nicely with oilstones - if they are contaminated by oil you can be in trouble.

[Tiger]

Yeah Eddie I use stropping too but I reckon that I haven't been able to quite replicate the sharpness of that 8000 stone.

[Sam]

Diamond paste ?

[msiemsen]

2000 grit wet or dry sand paper is about the same grit size as an 8000 waterstone.

[Tiger]

2000 grit wet or dry sand paper is about the same grit size as an 8000 waterstone.

Not sure about this, 2000 wet and dry is listed at about 10 microns, the 8000 waterstone is listed at 3 microns.

[msiemsen]

USA 2000 not Europe. Sorry for the confusion. I have good luck with the Euro. stuff (P2000) as silicon carbide breaks down in to finer and finer grits and keeps cutting.

[pmcgee]

Reading mainly on the razor-shaver websites, I gather that regarding Arkansas oilstones (soft, hard, white, black, translucent, ...) they equate roughly to a 4000 japanese stone. They are all Novaculite which is supposedly a uniform particle size, so the stones vary in the density of the cutting material + impurities.

The Belgian coticule is a very fine waterstone - it's natural so varies and I'd have to check but my cloudy memory is 10000 to 20000 equivalent.

I think it is a bit funny that the English have a Charnley Forest stone, now valued and expensive, but when they only had that and I assume some others - before the US natural stones became available - I gather that they were cursed as "too slow".

I stand to be corrected on anything.

BTW oilstones with baby oil is very pleasant.

Cheers,
Paul

Nope - I must be wrong - I can only now find "8000 grit" ... which as far as I can tell is about J8000 and 3 micron.


"The two stones to the left are a yellow-green Escher mounted on a paddle and a Belgian Yellow Coticule. I’ve put them side by side for color comparison. These are some of the finest hones in the world for honing straight razors and microtomes (a knife used to section individual cells in cellular biology). The Eschers are no longer mined as the quarry ran out but limited supplies are occasionally available as someone finds a boulder in the mine tailings and cuts it up into New Old Stock (NOS) stones. These stones are finishing stones in the 8000+ grit range."

[pmcgee]

From here: OldTools Archive -- thread with message 130903 (http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=130903&submit_thread=1)


Of all modern appliances, I regard the modern oilstones as the most
beneficial to woodworkers of the present time. In my youth we did not, of
course, realise it, but now I see how very much we were handicapped by the
poor class of stones then available. A few men were the possessors of a
"Turkey"; the only other variety known to us was the "Charnley Forest".
Both were natural products, for a manufactured stone at that time had not
been heard of. The Turkey, a cream and brown mottled stone of beautiful
smooth texture, can still hold its own, and it may safely be predicted
that, in the rare instances where pieces still remain, they will, by
virtue of their merit, be handed down for use by succeeding generations. I
never saw a full-sized Turkey stone without minute cracks and fissures.
Apparently it was obtained from the natural rock with difficulty; the
sides were uneven, and we assumed that the producers were content with
attaining one flat side. Turkey stones absolutely needed the protection
of a wooden case, imbedded in which they were good for lifelong use. But
the owners were careful of them, lest they should fall and be shattered.

All my father's men used the "Charnley Forest", a natural British stone
resembling slate, and I have vivid memories of the incessant rubbing that
was necessary before a keen edge on the tool could be obtained on them.
They varied slightly in quality, but even the very best were dreadfully
slow; and all demanded an abnormal amount of labour, to lighten which we
sometimes applied fine emery powder to the surface. This quickened the
process, but left a raw and unsatisfactory edge to the tool. Recourse to
the grindstone was had immediately the sharpening bevel became wide.
In the year 1889 the "Washita". An imported stone, appeared on the English
market, and was hailed with delight by all woodworkers , who straightway
discarded their "Charnley Forests" for ever. One old stone, that had till
then been considered of supreme merit and priceless value, was then hawked
round the workshop where I was serving a term of apprenticeship, and
failed to find a purchaser at the proffered price of sixpence. On my
weekend visits home, I carried a new stone to show my brother, who
insisted on keeping it. It created a minor sensation in my father's
workshop, where its undreamed of quality of sharpening captivated all my
father's men, each of whom speedily obtained one. Being a natural stone,
it varies in quality. If quick cutting is required to ordinary
carpenters' tools a coarse grained one should be selected, but for carving
tools a fine texture is preferable.

Since that time, two manufactured stones have appeared. The "Indiana" and
the "Carborundum". Each is made in three grades, fine, medium, and
coarse, and each has recognised valuable qualities. Experience of work at
the bench. Inclines me to favour the fine "Indiana" as a stone of a
texture on which a smooth keen edge can be obtained. But for ordinary
outdoor carpentry I would prefer the medium.

Walter Rose
"The Village Carpenter" 1937

[Robson Valley]

I use a chromium (III) oxide for honing my wood carving tools. Heavily streaked on a leather strop which is glued to wood, 5 to 10 passes makes a chrome-bright shine.
Nominal particle size is 0.5 micron.
Some diamond paste nominal particle sizes are 0.25 - 0.5 micron. I elected not to bother with them as the diamond particles are sharp and angular and don't break down as do water stone particles. Water stones aren't muddy/messy when you get organized.

If you slide over to the Wood Carving forum, you will find what I do posted in Star's Sharpening Journey.
If you look further down the listing, you will find examples of my carvings as a Green Sea Turtle, a Halibut Serving Platter and a Pair of Ravens. Also a thread showing how I shape metal and shell as inlays for my carvings.
Mind you, almost all of my wood carvings are done in Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata) which is locally abundant and mostly free for the taking. The wood is so soft that my gouges need to be exceptionally well finished to avoid the appearance of crushing.