PDA

View Full Version : looking for tools etc



redturner
10th September 2012, 10:14 AM
hi folks i have been woodturning for about 12 months now and have been caught up with mainly pen turning because of a lack funds, can any one sugest where to buy cheap used tools and a chuck for bowl turning in victoria/ melbourne etc, their is not much on ebay or any thing like it. thanks steve:fingerscrossed::aus:

NeilS
10th September 2012, 11:33 AM
Steve - If you have been turning for 12 months and are ready to extend yourself I would suggest that the bug has bitten you and that you are going to continue woodturning for many years. My suggestion is that you don't muck around with cheap (in the sense of inferior) tools but rather beg, borrow or (no .... buy) some good tools now as you are going to be using them for a long time. Better to borrow some good tools, see how you go with them and then buy your own, one at time if you can't manage more than that, and slowly build up your kit that way.

There are some good deals going on used tools over in the THE MARKET PLACE (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f220/) from time to time, but you have to know what you are after before you start parting with your hard earned cash. I have bought and sold (I don't keep it if I'm no longer using it) many items over in the Market Place and it is a great way to add to and clean out your kit. You also build up your relationship with other forum members through those transactions. Try putting a Wanted add and see how you go (eg Wanted: 100mm chuck). If you are prepared to pay for return postage, I'm sure many of us would be happy to let you try before you buy.

A number of good quality tools have sold over there over in last month.

Mulgabill
10th September 2012, 05:48 PM
G'day Redturner!
I know you were enquiring about used tools, but you can check Carroll's Woodcraft at Drysdale. They have different ranges of tools to suit most type of turners.

Christos
10th September 2012, 07:33 PM
I was in a similar situation to you as I started turning pens. I am now just starting to turn some shallow bowls. The choice of tools is vast and can be a little daunting to decide the brand, type and size.

What I had been doing is building up slowly. I am a long way from doing an actually hollow form but not so far away from doing a deeper bowl.

I managed to meet up with one of the forum members who allowed me to turn using his tools. This gave me some ideas on using the tools and what to purchase next. The main thing that I got from this instruction was to make a bowl with minimal tools needed.

I might suggest to keep your eye out for a chuck as your next purchase.

Ueee
10th September 2012, 09:22 PM
Just to add to what has been said already, i would aim to buy good quality tools, but really you don't need many to branch out into larger turning. A chuck will be your biggest purchase, then you really only need 2 or 3 chisels to do a lot of work. I messed about with a small bowl in camphor laurel this arvo, the first item i have turned in a long time. I used a grand total of 3 (ok 4 but i could have used the scraper to clean up the spigot to put in the chuck but i used a parting tool....) I could have even got away without the roughing gouge if i had cut a circle out first rather than just cutting the corners off the timber. All the shaping and facing was done with a 12mm fingernail ground gouge and finished with a scraper.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1026Medium.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1027Medium.jpg

RETIRED
10th September 2012, 09:53 PM
Don't use a SPINDLE roughing gouge on bowls. Why you don't use a Spindle Roughing Gouge on bowls. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY)

Ueee
10th September 2012, 10:37 PM
Sorry , at 4 min and no ADSL ATM there is no way i can watch that vid......but you will be pleased to know i am not dead and had no catches. And also YELLING at people is not very polite.

Ueee
10th September 2012, 10:47 PM
Ok, so i did have a look, at least for 30 sec......What, pardon my language, moron, would not rough cut the blank first? Also, did you know a roughing gouge can be used, like nearly all other turning tools, in a manner to get a shear cut?.......I am no novice turner , i like you, used to make a living out of making items from timber, this included many pieces with anything from production turned legs to one off turned pieces.

This is not helping the OP at all. I was just trying to show that much can be done without a huge array of tools.

Paul39
11th September 2012, 04:33 AM
I am with on the above. An experienced turner will try things that are "forbidden" out of curiosity. If it comes to blood on the floor and a trip to be sewn up, that is part of the experience.

If a newish turner is advised by an "expert" that a risky procedure is perfectly OK, they may come to grief because of overconfidence and not knowing the forces that may be experienced.

Someone who has been turning pens and spindles and goes to bowls of unspecified size on a lathe of unspecified power has enough of a learning curve without any situations that would cause the blank to come out of the lathe or break a roughing gouge at the tang and get a mouth full of same.

I am one of those morons who will split a 20 inch diameter log in half, cut the corners off with a chain saw and put it on the lathe. I knock the dirt and bark off with a 30 inch lawn mower blade ground to a scraper, and then finish with a 5/8 inch bowl gouge & scraper.

As I am so used to turning out of balance not round blanks with the bigger ones, I may cut the corners off the smaller ones with a chop saw. I mostly just stick the blank of whatever shape in the lathe and make it round with a bowl gouge or bedan.

Ueee
11th September 2012, 09:26 AM
Sorry Paul but you are not one of those morons. You said it yourself, you knock the corners off the blank. The risk is greatest when taking the corners off on the lathe. A big catch with any tool used correctly or incorrectly can easily send the work flying.
Apologies , I just think your post could have been a little more tactful. My meathods and skills have nothing to do with the point I was making.

jimbur
11th September 2012, 03:56 PM
Don't use a SPINDLE roughing gouge on bowls. Why you don't use a Spindle Roughing Gouge on bowls. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY)
I notice it took him six hours before he made it catch, but it was worth the wait.:D Very dramatic, pity we didn't hear the language.
Cheers,
Jim

RETIRED
11th September 2012, 04:55 PM
I notice it took him six hours before he made it catch, but it was worth the wait.:D Very dramatic, pity we didn't hear the language.
Cheers,
JimThere was no language.:D

jimbur
11th September 2012, 05:42 PM
So saints do exist.:U
Cheers,
Jim

NeilS
12th September 2012, 11:19 AM
I am one of those morons who will split a 20 inch diameter log in half, cut the corners off (or not) with a chain saw and put it on the lathe...... I mostly just stick the blank of whatever shape in the lathe and make it round with a bowl gouge

Me, too, particularly with green blanks. BUT, extra care is needed:



I turn outboard, so I'm not standing in the path of any projectiles when roughing down (when using push stokes). I would be less inclined to do this inboard, particularly if you tend to use pull strokes, as that would place you in the firing line.
Don't rough down starting from the high points to round (like you do in spindle turning - which is the correct way there, i.e. working downhill with the grain), but start with the foot in the centre and work out (i.e. downhill with the grain) removing the 'wings tips' (the corners) last. Yes, this will leave the blank out of balance and the knuckle-killing wing tips in place to the very end of the roughing down process, but it does reduce the chances of a split/detachment/projectile. IMO, it's also less severe on your lathe than the thumping interrupt cuts required if you remove the tips first.
With some woods that are more prone to splitting I will reverse the blank to remove the final inch width of the wing tips. Not an extra step if just green turning ready for drying. Not worth the extra step if turning through to a finish.
I NEVER rough down blanks with wings while there is anyone else in the workshop


Ueee - My greatest concern about the spindle roughing gouge you have used is its very fragile tang. They are prone to bending and snapping and as a result ending up in unwanted places. The forged type also have a very thin profile and don't provide much of a bevel for rubbing (not a very long fulcrum). That is why experienced bowl turners don't recommend novice bowl turners use spindle roughing gouges for roughing down bowl blanks, because we know from experience that there are better/safer tools for that in the hands of a novice.... like a bowl gouge.

soundman
13th September 2012, 01:13 AM
Back to the original poster and having the right tools for the job.

I know plenty of people will push the high quality tools line, sorry for the me and most mere mortal turners it does not cut any ice.

For the price of a single name brand roughing gouge, you can go and buy an enrty level box of tools, and they will do perfectly well till you can tell the difference, in fact there are some pretty decent lathe tools comming ot of china these days...well good enough for mere mortals.

AND this means the beginner will not be trying to do things with the incorrect tool because they only have 3 to select from.

The standard 6 piece too set all the usual suspects sell, will give you a 24mm roughing gouge, a 12mm bowl gouge, a 9mm spindle gouge a 24mm skew a scraper and a parting tool and all for arround $100.
And realy those are the 6 tools you need to start with.
Yeh they are cheap tools, but the beginner wont be burning expensive high quality steel learning to sharpen them and they are perfectly serviceble tools.


As for the chuck, there is plenty you can do with a couple of facplates if you cant afford a chuck.......check the Richard Raffin video if you don't believe me.

cheers

Paul39
13th September 2012, 02:06 AM
I completely agree with soundman's post 15 above.

jimbur
15th September 2012, 04:29 PM
I completely agree with soundman's post 15 above.

Ditto. and there is the added advantage that when secondhand better quality tools do come up (and they do) you know whether you really need them.
Cheers,
Jim

Avery
15th September 2012, 06:51 PM
I very much agree with soundman.

On set of six tools for about $110 is what I paid about 2 years ago. It was at least 12 months before I could tell the difference between a good tool and a very good tool and probably another 12 months before i really started to understand why different tools were shaped the way they were. I have still not learned to sharpen efficiently or even effectively, so the couple of really good tools that I now own don't perform any where near their best.

In that time I have still managed to turn out some quite nice pieces - at least good enough to have friends and neighbours putting in requests.

Do , however, buy a reasonably good chuck if you can.

vk4
15th September 2012, 07:31 PM
I agree with SOUNDMAN,.
I suggest that the following would be a good start:

1 Scroll chuck ( Vicmark, Nova, etc) do not buy the CHEAP CHINESE scroll chucks as no accessories and they sometimes let go.
2 buy quality before quantity , with tools.
3 a small-med chain saw , aldi have them on promotions , or a small electric .
4 band saw 14" min.

buy as you can afford , do not buy cheap tools as you will regret it very quickly.
Henry Taylor, Marples,P&N, & hamlet are all good to excellent quality, there are less expensive tools but always buy HSS TOOLS, Carbon steels wre ok for pine, but any Australian hard wood, will stop them in their tracks.

My 2 cents worth.

Jef
vk4

soundman
15th September 2012, 07:50 PM
Sorry VK4 but that is a very confusing post.

It is important to make d difference between, cheap and fairly decent tools (and the usual suspects can help there) and the realy cheap crappy tools, that are sold in hardware shops and by certain non specilist on line vendors......truth is you will pay about the same for both.

One give away is short blades and short handles.

Unless they come my way at a very good price, I doubt that I will ever buy a top brand name chisel...I simply cant justify $100 pluss for a single blade.
On well known turning supplier on the gold coast has a range of pretty respectable cheap chisles in the $15 to $40 range......if you speak to the right chinaman, some pretty respectable HSS available out of china.

Not so long ago all the cheap chucks where simply rubbish, seems the chineese have got there act together after some prodding by the importers and retailers.....there are some pretty respectable economy chucks out there either on their own or in kits.........there are a couple of kits that come with the chuck and 4 sets of jaws for arround the $250....AND some of them take brand name jaw sets.
I know a couple of people who have baught one of these as a second or third chuck and been surprised at the quality and finction for the price.

cheers

jimbur
17th September 2012, 10:22 AM
VK4, you're a bit too sweeping about HSS. Sure it holds its edge longer and is less likely to lose its temper when grinding but high carbon steel tools have been turning Australian hardwoods since settlement. Manufacturers like Sorby and Marples made excellent high carbon steel turning tools. You just have to sharpen a lot more.
cheers,
Jim

Jim Carroll
17th September 2012, 01:22 PM
Ok just to clarify what everyone is trying to tell you.

You have been bitten by the woodturning bug and need to move to the next level.

HSS tools are by far better than their asian equivelents { be very carefull here some are marked HSS but only in name not in quality} so start here with the Robert Sorby 6pc set (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/item/robert-sorby-67hs-starter-set)

Scroll chucks certainly help with a lot of work and jam chucks still do a lot as well , here is a good quality chuck (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/item/vicmarc-vm100-scroll-chuck)

Save your pennies and buy good, you know what cheap can do and it is not worth buying cheap again.

soundman
17th September 2012, 05:22 PM
Sorry Jim..... but you have just countered with the standard FUD and push the expensive tools line.

There is plenty of good HSS comming out of china and asia, drills, metal tooling and wood tooling. The chinese and the tiwanese can make HSS as well as anybody these days..afterall the making of modern HSS is a 19 century technology and the chinese where probably making good tool steel when most europeans where still playing with bronze and copper.

Casting dispersions on other products with vague and nonspecific claims simply does not cut any ice with me.

The fact that, it is or is not HSS, can be assertained by presenting the tool to the grinder and observing the colour of the sparks and how the thin edge colours when heavily ground.
The quality of the metal and how well it holds an edge will become very obvious when the tool is used.

As I have said, the quality of the better chinese and asian HSS tools has improved over what was generally on offer 10 ot 15 years ago.


When a name brand supplier has a kit of tools reduced from $329 to $210 RETAIL a 30% reduction, and the retailer is still making his fair share, it indicates to me that either some one has been having a lend of us for quite some time OR they are hurting because of the value for money comming out of china and asia.

I note that the Robert sorby web site Claims that the tools are "Produced in their own factory", but I do not see any "Made in Brittan" claims.
SO..exactly where are the various components of the sorby tools sourced and how much work is done in factories located where?

Besides for someone who is price consious, Are those tools twice as good and than better generic asian and chinese products? Because they are twice the price even at the discounted $210.

On the matter of chucks, there is less difference in the price of a name brand chuck as opposed to the good asian and chinese coppies...but when you can buy a respectable asian chick with 4 sets of jaws, for the price of one of the name brands with a single set of 50mm jaws.......its worth asking some mates down the turning club how theirs is going.
Some will say pretty damn fine.

For some people the name brand items may be viable, for others of us we can do very well TVM with the better chinese and asian stuff.

cheers

jimbur
17th September 2012, 06:33 PM
Soundman, I owned a set looking extremely similar to the Sorby ones but $109 I think from Carbatec. It was an ideal starter kit and is still in use. My only complaint was the oval skew and that was personal taste, nothing wrong with the steel.
Cheers,
Jim

Avery
17th September 2012, 06:39 PM
The chuck that Jim Carroll recommended is a very, very good chuck. All things being equal, you should take note of what Jim says well before paying any attention to me

Here is the one that I have been using for the past 2 years and quite frankly I cannot see where the price difference is.

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/W370

Of course, I am not a professional, probably not even very good, but I do know what a dollar looks like.

Maybe with a few more hundred hours of experience I will be able to tell the difference.

NeilS
17th September 2012, 11:16 PM
I'm not sure Redturner needs to buy a set of turning tools now.

From my reading of his original post, he already has the necessary tools to do spindle turning. Well, pen turning. At a guess, his tool kit already includes a spindle gouge, skew and parting tool, and perhaps a spindle roughing gouge and scraper (or not). And, something suitable to sharpen them on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, all he really needs now is a bowl gouge and a chuck to also do bowl turning.

Sure, jam chucking may save some $s (and separate the men from the boys), but who wants to spend their time making up jam chucks when they can be turning bowls?

There isn't much difference in the cost of an economy and a predictable quality chuck (eg about $75 between the WSC-100 an the VM100), and maybe there isn't all that much difference between them for hobby use. But, if that $75 is too much of a stretch, go with the economy chuck for now.

That leaves the bowl gouge. Jim currently has the 3/8" Vicmarc bowl gouge listed here (http://www.cws.au.com/shop/item/vicmarc-bowl-gouges) for $59. That's a very high quality vanadium alloyed powdered metal tool steel gouge (A11 with 10% vanadium). Will that gouge last twice as long as an M2 HSS gouge worth half that price? Yes, at lot more*. And, who wants to spend more time sharpening their gouge than turning?

So that's $59 for a top quality bowl gouge + (say) Jim's Economy GEN 100 Chuck for $ 155.00 + $10 for postage (or take a run over to Jim's to pick up yourself) = $224 max. I think I'm as "price conscience" as the next (average) person, but that doesn't seem extravagant to me. Make half a dozen bowls as presents for next Christmas and the odd birthday in between and they will have already paid for themselves...:)

* See the chart on the Effect of Carbide Content on Wear Resistance found half way down this page (http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html). Compare M2 with V10. In practice, I haven't found V10 to be five times more wear resistant than M2, but it is at least several times more wear resistant.

antiphile
18th September 2012, 12:25 AM
eBay, in my humble opinion, used to be a great source of secondhand goods years ago, but these days seems to be predominantly an alternative retail channel for cheap (and often low quality) goods. This suggestion is entirely subjective, but often combined with a little patience, http://www.gumtree.com.au can be very useful. Search in the "Stuff for Sale" category, and the "Tools and DYI" subcategory using the appropriate postcode and distance.

Good luck!

soundman
18th September 2012, 12:36 AM
OK if we are going to drop names and prices.

If you look at Gary Pye's web site, you will find a good quality chinese 3/8 bowl gouge for $26. His GEN 3 GPW 100 chuck for $149, or his limited edition GEN3 GP100 deluxe set with 4 sets of jaws for $235...BTW his chucks take tecnatool and vicmark jaws....I don't know what the postage would be.
Of course he sells hamlet and vicmarc as well......but guess what he is selling most of these days.

As for most hobbists getting twice the life out of an expensive gouge.......most of us will never wear out a gouge.

cheers

NeilS
18th September 2012, 10:48 AM
As for most hobbists getting twice the life out of an expensive gouge.......most of us will never wear out a gouge.



Agreed, only the most productive professional woodturners wear out gouges, and less so now if they are using diamond or CBN grinding wheels. I don't do that amount of turning myself, but with my current diamond wheel I expect thousands of bowls from any of my good quality gouges. And, yes, it makes no sense for a hobby turner to spend the extra $33 on a 3/8" bowl gouge for steel they will never use.

However, that misses another important factor for all turners; wear resistant steels stay sharper for longer, which means fewer trips to the grinder, less time at the grinder and more time turning. That must be as important for the hobbyist as the pro, otherwise we would still all be using plain carbon steels which produce a sharper edge.

For me the extra turning time is worth the extra $33, as it will be for many hobby turners who are time-poor.

But, if you are time-rich, short on $s, and don't mind spending more time (maybe even enjoy) sharpening, you may decide the more durable gouges are not worth the additional cost for you.

PS - any names and prices 'dropped' were for illustration purposes only, I have no vested interest in promoting any one supplier over another, but I think it not unreasonable that I use our forum sponsor for that purpose.

Stay sharp!

Willy Nelson
18th September 2012, 11:12 AM
Agreed, only the most productive professional woodturners wear out gouges

Yep, I am not a professional turner, but I do turn an awful lot. Approximately 20 years ago, I chopped a tree down for a mate, he was so happy with my efforts, he gave me a brand new Henry Taylor bowl gouge. For some reason, this become my Go To tool for most of my turning. I suppose I wasn't a good sharpener then (or now) so I may have wasted some of it, but that chisel is only now becoming semi retired. It has been a fantastic tool and I really should replace it with an identical one.

Who supplies HT in OZ?
Willy
Jarrahland

NeilS
19th September 2012, 11:27 AM
Who supplies HT in OZ?



Woodturning Supplies (http://www.woodturningsupplies.com.au/) - lists local prices, but not sure if they hold stock locally

Lazarides Timber Agencies (http://www.lazaridestimber.com.au) - just points to HT website and has no local prices listed

TurnedByIan
20th September 2012, 11:02 AM
Hiya Red, my 2 cents worth.
Our Guild has got a lot of new members so your question is a current one.
Sets of chisels tend to have some chisels that barely get used so we suggest getting individual chisels.
Over here the popular way is to use the Woodcut M2 replaceable tips.
Order of purchase:

13mm bowl gouge, ground to 45 degree (mid way between 35 and 55 as a compromise). You can rough and finish turn with this
Chuck with 50mm jaws like a Nova G3 or equivalent
Woodcut sharpening jig or equivalent. Quickest way to hold/increase the value of your gouges is to be able to reproduce the correct bevel angle every time. This means you are sharpening, not grinding away the edge
10mm bowl gouge, ground to 45 degree
13mm bowl gouge, ground to 35 degree and change your first one to 55 degree
10mm bowl gouge, ground to 35 degree and change your first one to 55 degree or
16mm bowl gouge, ground to 35 degree and this becomes you roughing gouge. (Please do not use the spindle roughing gouge, the tang does not have the strength)
100m jaw set for your chuck

Also recommend joining your local Guild. Often older turners get rid of gear to beginners so you could benefit.
We also get equipment given to us by members of the public when Grandad passes.

Finally, I will mention safety gear. Use a full facemask/shield. Turning bigger stuff than pens tends to make a bigger mess when things go bad:(

Sounds like you're hooked, welcome to the Vortex. Cheers Ian

NeilS
20th September 2012, 02:12 PM
+1.... on the sound advice from Ian

Although I seem to get by with the same grind angle on all of my bowl gouges, but understand the advice to have some gouges with a less acute grind as some people prefer this for turning the inside bottoms of bowls. A less acute grind on the gouge used for roughing down is also an advantage, as a less acute grind is more durable, while a more fragile acute grind is usually better for finishing cuts.

Agree fully on the need for a "sharpening jig", and if funds are short make your own:



Simplest (http://www.aroundthewoods.com/sharpening04.html)
Intermediate (http://www.harderwoods.com/gougejigdoc.html)
Advanced (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/grinding-jig-mkii-54676/)

jimbur
20th September 2012, 02:18 PM
i don't know whether I'm missing something here but the posts in this thread seem to equate grinding with sharpening. Is this way it is done nowadays with the high-tech steels or is using a stone to keep the edge too obvious to mention?
Cheers,
Jim

NeilS
20th September 2012, 08:51 PM
... is using a stone to keep the edge too obvious to mention?


Not at all, Jim.

Turners have different preferences on this.

My own preference is to touch up skews with a fine diamond plate at the lathe. It is easy to maintain the bevel profile on a skew, so no issues when I go back to re-grind.

Back when I sharpened my gouges freehand I also touched up the edge with a diamond plate at the lathe, but nowadays I only sharpen with a jig. It's quick, repeatable, predictable and I grind away less valuable steel... for me, it's not worth risking mucking up the gouge bevel with freehand honing.

Honing the flute is a separate issue, and well worth the investment of time and effort.

jimbur
20th September 2012, 09:13 PM
Thanks Neil. That clears that up in my mind. Not that that one item gives me a clear mind.:U
Cheers,
Jim

Mobyturns
20th September 2012, 11:25 PM
The fact that, it is or is not HSS, can be assertained by presenting the tool to the grinder and observing the colour of the sparks and how the thin edge colours when heavily ground.
The quality of the metal and how well it holds an edge will become very obvious when the tool is used.

Not real good advice, & way too late by then to find out its not HSS. No retailer will refund your money once the tool has hit the grinder & good luck with consumer affairs forcing a refund. Tools are cheap for one of a few reasons, artificially maintained trade advantages; a lower cost base; or inferior materials & production QA. You get what you pay for in quality & must compare apples with apples. Yes some asian tools are as good as those sourced from more traditional suppliers & in fact in some cases are the identical product. A good friend in the tackle trade says "all products come with a lifetime waranty. when it breaks that was its lifetime!" However more traditional suppliers are prepared to back their product.

As for the original request, I back comments similar to those by (no spindle roughing gouges on bowls) and those by TurnedbyIan. Now that you reckon you are going to stick with the turning gig, its far better to identify what projects you want to create then set about acquiring better quality tools to do that task & ones that will last. Sure very experienced turners can use any cutting edge to acheive a cut, because they understand the principles of the cutting action & the materials, but thats just ego trip stuff.

"A bargain is something you can't use at a price you can't resist" Franklin Jones