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Grizz
24th March 2005, 07:56 PM
Hi all,
Just a quick rave. Finally bit the bullet and go the polishing book, EEE and Shellawax cream and now the Rotary Sander.

Here' my opinion FWIW:
Book isn't really necessay for turners. Turning section should just read "Buy U-Beaut products and use as directed."
EEE and Shellawax creams: Why, Why, Why didn't I buy these earlier. Would have saved a lot of time and money trying to get a good finish.
Rotary Sander: Possibly best thing since sliced bread?

Having said that U-Beaut products are all you need though, I turn a fair bit of red and spotted gum. Both have fairly large pores (I think that's what they are called) and would like to fill them. Have used several coats of shellac previously and finished off with shellac/boiled linseed mix. Not bad, but takes a long time and finish is still not very glossy. Can shellac be used under EEE and Shellawax to fill pores?

Grizz.

Grunt
24th March 2005, 08:03 PM
Fricken' Crawler :D

vsquizz
24th March 2005, 08:05 PM
Fricken' Crawler :D
Grizz is stealing your thunder Grunt

Cheers

Grizz
24th March 2005, 08:19 PM
Hey, worth a try. Maybe they will send me some freebies :D.

Grizz.

gatiep
24th March 2005, 09:14 PM
Yep. It is usually not a requisite to use a sealer under Shellawax and in fact the Book doesn't recommend it, because it would interfere with the Shellawax bonding with the timber during the burnishing. ( Seems like you may have missed that bit in the Book....lol. )

However if you need to fill the wood like you are doing, there is no reason why you can't use the Shellawax over it. It may interfere with the bonding but the finish is still excellent. I use thin ca and sanding dust and the Shellawax still works very well. I also from time to time use normal brown shellac over dark timber and blond shellac ( thats the type that gets it all wrong ) over light timber instead of normal sanding sealer, if I really feel that a sealer is required, before finishing with The Swax. You can use EEE over Swax and vice versa.

I still need to check up what the difference between Shellawax and Shellawax Glow is. Maybe Neil could enlighten me gently!

Have a good Easter all.

:)

rsser
24th March 2005, 09:33 PM
Shellawax glow is unbleached shellac-based I think.

My take is that the Shellawax family works best on fine grained timber (that point might have been made on the Finishing forum).

If you want to accentuate the grain contrast, use an oil-based finish. If you don't, use a nitrocellulose sanding sealer and wax over that. Or bleached shellac and wax.

Want to fill pores? Try wet-sanding an oil-based finish. Organoil is good for this, but I found you have to come back three weeks later and knock back the raised grain.

I go through fads; at the moment it's Danish Oil. Has been Organoil, Arboroil, Shellawax, nitro sanding sealer and wax, sometimes just wax. Wax .. another story.

The question is: what does the finish add to the piece? Do you want to be looking at matt, semi- or high gloss? In other words, the grain, the gleam or your reflection?

Grizz
24th March 2005, 11:20 PM
Hi Ern,
I've tried the oil finish and found that it's pretty good but takes a hell of a lot of work and time to get it up to a good gloss. Perhaps if I was to use shellac to fill the pores and then sand back to bare wood in between I may not have too many probs. BTW, did read the part in the book about not using sanding sealers etc, but figured that, since Shellawax is based on shellac (correct me if I'm wrong), then it should still bond by melting the shellac that's on the piece.

I have tried Shellawax on a piece that I'd done with shellac and boiled linseed oil and it did come up very nice but not quite good enough. That was a piece of redgum that I managed to fill all the pores on but took a long time and a lot of effort.

Grizz.

gatiep
25th March 2005, 02:11 AM
Grizz

Try a few layers of Sw, burnish between each application and soon you'll have a very high gloss on those shellac/boiled linseed oil pieces.

:)

rsser
25th March 2005, 10:17 AM
Hi Ern,
I've tried the oil finish and found that it's pretty good but takes a hell of a lot of work and time to get it up to a good gloss.
Grizz.

Yeah. You can buff it to increase the lustre - I did this with Rustin's Danish oil after the 3rd coat and while not yet set and got too high a shine for my taste.

Turners often wax over the oil finish to increase the shine.

Getting a gloss out of wax will take a few coats and it may not be high enough for you - try poly perhaps.

Lucas
25th March 2005, 02:38 PM
Just a quick question
where can i buy U-Beaut products in the northern Melbourne burbs

Grizz
25th March 2005, 05:25 PM
Thanks for all the tips people. One thing I think I need to clear up though. Ern, I like the gloss that you get with Shellawax but am not impressed with products that just seem to sit on the surface. Maybe it's just me, but I feel a lot better about a piece that doesn't have varnish on it.

Grizz.

Christopha
25th March 2005, 06:03 PM
DON'T USE A SEALER UNDER SHELLAWAX! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Shellawax is designed to be burnished INTO the timber, it is not meant to sit on top of some crappy sealer! FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS! Sand to the desired grit, usually at least 400, if you wish 'sand' some more use EEE Ultrashine and then burnish the Shellawax into your timber. You will get a high gloss, you will get a longlasting finish, you will get a finish that is IN the timber not ON the timber like a cheap layer of "varnish". :D

gatiep
25th March 2005, 06:44 PM
Stroes Christopher, I think even people that dont have a computer have seen that violent reply reflected off their colorbond sheds. A bit over the top I would think.

:eek:

rsser
25th March 2005, 07:24 PM
'Where to buy ubeaut in the Northern suburbs?'

Nowhere I know of. I buy off the web and have the stuff posted. Saves a lot in time and travel costs.

Gingermick
25th March 2005, 07:30 PM
[QUOTE=rsser]Yeah. You can buff it to increase the lustre - I did this with Rustin's Danish oil after the 3rd coat and while not yet set and got too high a shine for my taste.


Ern
A dining room table I made 16 months ago is still a little sticky. (Scandinavian oil it was called) I haven't had the time to get around to doing anything about it (And didn't know what)
Have you had this happen? If so, what is the solution?
Cheers
Mick

rsser
25th March 2005, 07:32 PM
Ern, I like the gloss that you get with Shellawax but am not impressed with products that just seem to sit on the surface. Maybe it's just me, but I feel a lot better about a piece that doesn't have varnish on it.
Grizz.

Same here; suggest you try Rustin's Danish Oil and experiment - buff it or not; see tips on www.cws.au.com from memory

It's a mix of oil and varnish I think. Matt when unbuffed; can get quite a deep shine on dense timbers.

rsser
25th March 2005, 07:45 PM
Ern
A dining room table I made 16 months ago is still a little sticky. (Scandinavian oil it was called) I haven't had the time to get around to doing anything about it (And didn't know what)
Have you had this happen? If so, what is the solution?
Cheers
Mick

Hmm, should've hardened by now. I haven't used the product or experienced anything similar so this is just guesswork and more experienced finishers will hopefully weigh in, but you might buy some Terebrine (which is a drier) and give it a light wipe over with that and some 0000 steel wool.

Or contact the manufacturer if you can to find out what was in it and what their advice is.

Edit: post the query on the Finishing forum?

Christopha
25th March 2005, 08:20 PM
Stroes Christopher, I think even people that dont have a computer have seen that violent reply reflected off their colorbond sheds. A bit over the top I would think.

:eek:

Mate, I just get a bit tired of the same thing.... at a woodshow I will demonstrate the the worlds best wood turning bloody friction polish, I make a strong point, "DO NOT USE A SEALER": and some twit will ask immediately what is the best sanding sealer to use under it. Any bugger who buys some gets a fact sheet which tells them "NO BLOODY SEALER YOU TWIT!" and they immediately get on here complaining about the finish..... There are very few things that will bugger up a good finish with Shellawax, follow the instructions, TRUST Neil, and you will get an absolute pearler of a finish that will last for a bloody long time and then, if you haven't looked after it properly you can actually refinish with little bother.
IT'S GOOD GEAR, TRUST THE INSTRUCTIONS! :rolleyes:

vsquizz
25th March 2005, 08:52 PM
Mate, I just get a bit tired of the same thing.... at a woodshow I will demonstrate the the worlds best wood turning bloody friction polish, I make a strong point, "DO NOT USE A SEALER": and some twit will ask immediately what is the best sanding sealer to use under it. Any bugger who buys some gets a fact sheet which tells them "NO BLOODY SEALER YOU TWIT!" and they immediately get on here complaining about the finish..... There are very few things that will bugger up a good finish with Shellawax, follow the instructions, TRUST Neil, and you will get an absolute pearler of a finish that will last for a bloody long time and then, if you haven't looked after it properly you can actually refinish with little bother.
IT'S GOOD GEAR, TRUST THE INSTRUCTIONS! :rolleyes:
So what was the Sanding Sealer you use under Shellawax again??;)

Cheers

gatiep
25th March 2005, 10:56 PM
Christopher,

I use Sw all the time and it is the only polish I use and recommend in my turning classes, without any form of sealer as per instructions. However if a person is hell bent on sealing with a mixture of cow dung and golden syrup or whatever, let them do so because they will do it anyway. Should they then put some SW over the top it may not give them the best as in how we know Sw finish, but by reapplying a few coats and burnishing the Sw it can only improve their original botch up. I have given up getting excited about what they put on before Sw, if they don't want to do it properly, they don't deserve the quality finish. I save the excitement for the Rugby World cup when it comes around again!

I get asked that same question at least once every Monday and Wednesday night after explaining the procedure. The other is to spin the work slower than the hour hand of a clock and use a powderpuff touch to burnish........they just don't get it. Once they see the difference between my finish and theirs, they say: "how do you get that great finish?". Reply: "Easy, I use the method that I just explained and showed you."

Have a great long weekend Stoppers.

:)

( BTW, just back from having a nice steak at Sizzlers and on my way to go finish a Tassie Blackwood lidded box with Sw cream, without another sealer).

Gingermick
25th March 2005, 11:11 PM
The main problem with the EEE, sw combo is it will allow my laziness to come through. If I can leave a little sanding mark on and get rid of it with EEE thats heating. (I'm quite willing to do it tho)
What would my grandfather think?
I can leave a blemish and achieve beauty, its not right.

Gingermick
25th March 2005, 11:14 PM
cheating not heating

Grizz
25th March 2005, 11:36 PM
OK Christopha, perhaps I could have been a little clearer. So let me start again.

I fully accept that the finish you get with Shellawax is superb but maybe I'm doing something wrong because the open grained timbers like red and spotted gum don't fill completely. I normally sand to at least 1200 grit and on special pieces go to 2000 (some might say overkill but, so far, I like the process). On Kwila, this gives a very small pore size that finishes beautifully, especially with Shellawax Glow. So far I can't reduce the pore size on the other 2 mentioned timbers. If it's something I'm doing wrong in the preperation, please let me know. Otherwise, my reply to Ern's post explored the possibility of sanding the piece back to bare wood but just leaving the pores filled with shellac. Also, is it possible to confirm that high speed and pressure could produce enough heat to melt and incorporate an existing shellac layer into the new Shellawax finish? Is so, this should effectively seal the pores without affecting the the bonding between Shellawax and timber (QED?).

Yes, I have read the book and browse through it regularly to keep things fresh in my mind. No, I would not consider using any other type of grain filler and would, now, only use oil etc for a special effect. My reason for posting this thread in the first place was that Shellawax products (used according to instructions) has saved me so much time that I was hoping to get some feedback from more experienced turners and finishers. I suppose, in hind-sight, that it might have been better to conduct some trials myself and then, possible, post the results. Not a bad idea, will do that over the next few months.

Grizz.

rsser
26th March 2005, 01:20 PM
See http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=132969#post132969

for a lightly buffed Danish oil finished bowl (but I wasn't trying to fill the pores on this one ;-} )

Grizz
26th March 2005, 06:48 PM
Well, I found myself with not much to do today so ended up doing a trial with shellac and Shellawax Cream. Results were very interesting. If anyone is interested, I will post them.

Ern, lovely bowl. Finish really suits the piece.

Grizz.

rsser
26th March 2005, 07:39 PM
Thanks Grizz.

Yeah, tell us what you found.

Confound the theorists with experience ;-}

Grizz
26th March 2005, 08:59 PM
Right Ern, let's try some basic practical experience. 3 pieces of spotted gum cut from the same piece of wood, turned to roughly the same diameter and finished in three different ways. All 3 pieces sanded with 60, 80, 120, 240, 320, 400, 600, 800 and 1200 grit using lowest speed on MC-900 lathe. Clean paper used each time. Piece 1 finished with EEE and Shellawax Cream (SC) with a total of 3 coats to try to fill pores in timber. Piece 2 had 3 applications of shellac put on with 15 mins between coats and minimal sanding between applications. This was followed by sanding with 800 and 1200 grit paper before receiving the EEE and SC treatment. Piece 3 received 3 coats of shellac but was sanded back to bare wood between each coat with 320grit paper. Prior to application of EEE and SC, it was again sanded back to bare wood with 320 grit paper and then progressively to 1200 using previously mentioned method.
EEE and SC were applied as per instructions and SC was applied at top speed on MC-900 lathe and enough pressure to create quite a bit of heat (was burning my fingers through 1/2" of folded cloth on each application).
As I considered myself to be biased in terms of results, gave them to my wife who knows as much about turning and finishing as I do about applied nuclear physics (virtually 0) and asked her to rank them in terms of quality. Interestingly, she ranked them 3, 2 and 1 in order of preference. In other words, whilst the differences were very minimal, she considered the quality of the finish using shellac and sanding back to bare wood between coats and the non-sanded shellac to be a better finish than SC by itself.
On the negative side, none of the treatments filled the pores. Will have to try something else.
Anyway, enough of this. From memory, Neil states in the book that there is no 1 finish that can be used for everything and, while Shellawax products are not designed to go over anything else, he does use the term, not tested. This implies, to me at least, that experimentation with finishes, even U-Beaut ones, is acceptable. But isn't this the whole point of life, to explore new horizons? Woodturning is, I believe, a good example. We all learn particular techniques but try to vary these as much as possible to get different, if not better, results. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I, for one, won't be using shellac under SC unless it's been mixed with some form of oil to fill the pores. Yes Christopha, I will be using foriegn substances under my SC in the future because I believe that it can provide me and others with interesting alternatives.
BTW, I turned a small piece in Cypress Pine and finished it with EEE and Shellawax Glow. There is no way I would EVER, consider using anything under a Shellawax product on a wood like that. But we must remember "horses for courses."
Thank you and good night.

Grizz.

rsser
26th March 2005, 09:50 PM
"Horses for courses" ... eggzackly!

My only commission (not that I'm a pro) was for 6 napkin rings in native timbers. That taught me something about finishing different horses.

(Shellac has trad'y been used as a grain filler as far as I'm aware, but not for turners as it 'sets' too quickly. So then if you sand back to bare timber you get rid of the streaks).

JackoH
27th March 2005, 10:17 AM
Stoppers. SIT-STAY!!!!

macca2
27th March 2005, 12:26 PM
Grizz, I don't know if it is recomended, but I use a light application of watered down Timbermate as a grain filler when required. After drying and sanding it does not appear to adversly effect the finish using Shellawax.

Macca

Grizz
27th March 2005, 05:03 PM
Hi Macca,
I've tried that but didn't have much success. Probably my technique but will keep trying. Reading the Finishers Handbook, came across something called gesso. Also how to use it to fill grain with different colours to the wood. Sounds like something that could be interesting.

BTW, have attached pic of piece I did today. Redgum sanded to 400 grit dry then applied Boiled Linseed Oil and wet sanded to 1200 grit. Then hit with Boiled Linseed Oil and Shellac mix followed by EEE and Shellawax Cream. I'm very happy with the results. The black ring around the inside rim was an accident caused by the heat when applying the finish but turned out nice.

Grizz.

rsser
27th March 2005, 05:11 PM
Cool grizz.

Wet sanding with oil produces a slurry that fills the pores. With a bit of heat/pressure, or drier in an oil based product, it sets (aka polymerises?)

Edit: bear in mind the horses for courses thing tho; redgum can be fine-grained and not need much filling. (And that's a b*gger about this game; the same wood type can vary a lot).

Grizz
27th March 2005, 05:15 PM
Hi Ern,

I know the theory about wet sanding filling the pores but, so fare, haven't had much luck. Outside of pieces comes up great but inside still has lots of pores. May be my technique, spose I'll just have to keep practicing :(.

Grizz.

rsser
27th March 2005, 05:38 PM
What's your 'inside' technique?

I've recently learned from my teacher that I was running my 2" sander too fast to get a good cut (in this case, it wouldn't have made enough slurry).

That said, I've now returned to what I started with .. sanding bowl insides with paper wrapped around a piece of scotchbrite - seems to produce less ripple across the spring/autumn grain diffs.

Grizz
27th March 2005, 05:44 PM
Hey Ern,

That Scotchbrite idea sounds great. Should reduce the burnt fingers somewhat. Will try that next time. The piece that I posted is too small for my rotary sander so done by hand. Generated lots of slurry but it just doesn't seem to fill the pores. Mind you, SWMBO reckons I'm being too much of a perfectionist and reckons the finish is good.

When you wet sand, how much oil do you have on the piece. Ie, is it flooded or just damp. I think I might tend to put too much oil on.

Re your bit about redgum being variable, could say the same thing about most wood. But you're right, keeps things interesting and challenging. That's what I tend to really enjoy about turning.

Grizz.

rsser
27th March 2005, 06:48 PM
Yeah, just damp.

And with the scotchbrite, and some (!) timbers, sanding too hot pulls out the resin and smears it around, making a mess. This is the drawback in this technique; you don't feel it, you see it once it's happened.

Too fussy about finishing? geez, my 1st turning teacher had me sanding to 2500 grit; then Arboroil, then applying and buffing three types of wax!

It all depends on how you set your effort/reward ratio.

Hambone
1st April 2005, 04:20 PM
Thanks for all the tips people. One thing I think I need to clear up though. Ern, I like the gloss that you get with Shellawax but am not impressed with products that just seem to sit on the surface. Maybe it's just me, but I feel a lot better about a piece that doesn't have varnish on it.

Grizz.
Hi All,
From one novice to another .I have been making lace bobbins for over 12 years and have not found a product to match SW .To get a high finish on the bobins I have found that a final sand with 1000 wet and dry before applying the SW gives me the finish I want