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DPB
24th March 2005, 10:54 PM
Where in Melbourne can one purchase Urea Formaldeyde Glue? How about slow-setting apoxy with an open time of up to 60 minutes?

Rocker
25th March 2005, 06:46 AM
Don,

Timbecon have it as an online special at the moment for $22.50 for a litre. See http://www.timbecon.com.au/productsearch/default.aspx?txtSearchBox=Urea
Their UF glue is good because it has a liquid, rather than a powder, hardener, so it spreads more easily. The only problem with it is that its shelf life is fairly limited. If you keep it more than about 6 months, it goes solid. But hopefully you will have finished your rocker in less than that time :D

Techniglue epoxy with a slow hardener should also do the job, but it is more expensive at $32.85 for 750 mL online from Timbecon.

Rocker

DPB
25th March 2005, 07:56 AM
Don,


The only problem with it is that its shelf life is fairly limited. If you keep it more than about 6 months, it goes solid. But hopefully you will have finished your rocker in less than that time :D

Rocker
Thanks, David. The real problem is - I might go solid before I finish the rocker.:D

MajorPanic
25th March 2005, 06:26 PM
Carba-Tec have AV 203 Urea Formaldehyde glue. It's an Australian company who makes it (AVS (http://www.avsyntec.com.au)) & it's 2 part. It's a bit dear at $42.00 but you can extend the shelf-life, according to the manufacturers tec sheet by keeping it in the fridge :confused:
Well that's where mine is residing at the moment :D

boban
26th March 2005, 12:07 AM
You can try West System epoxy from Carba-tec (Big $) or from FMS (reasonable $). It has both slow and fast hardeners.

My boat builder mate swears by the stuff and wont use anything else. To prove how good it is he laminated some pine into curves and brought them over to my place. To say I way impressed was an understatement. I think I paid about $130 for a 5 litre kit with the pumps but call FMS (I think it stands for Fibreglass Material Supplies) they have a number of franchises or branches.

Slavo
27th March 2005, 05:07 PM
I picked up some AV203 for $32 from their local distributer. They didn't have it in stock so they ordered it in and it arrived in a couple of days. Check their Vic distributers for one closest to you.

markharrison
28th March 2005, 10:33 PM
West System slow hardener works great. There are a couple of variations with different setting times. To get the times you want you would need to use the 209 hardener. I suspect that you might need to order it in though. I haven't seen it sitting on a shelf at my supplier (Caporns in Brookvale NSW).

I've used the 206 hardener and found it sufficient for my needs. I suppose the questions is what are you doing that you need such a long open time?

Richardwoodhead
28th March 2005, 10:43 PM
DPB, I can get about 45 minutes out of West System epoxy with the slow hardener. Best if you use a wide bottomed container when you mix. If the mix is in a small container, the heat of the reaction is too contained and speeds up the hardening.

boban
28th March 2005, 10:48 PM
I mix on a flat peice of melamine board. I have stacks of offcuts to use. I dont have a problem with heat when I do this. I can only use one pump of each using this method.

DPB
29th March 2005, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the replies. I've ordered some urea from Timbecom. :) I'll keep your advice in mind when using it.

Rocker
29th March 2005, 03:01 PM
Thanks for the replies. I've ordered some urea from Timbecom. :) I'll keep your advice in mind when using it.

Don,

You will find that the Timbecon UF glue has no instructions on the proportion of hardener to use. I used 1:8, which is the same ratio as the amount of hardener supplied to the amount of glue, and it worked fine. But you need to use a rubber roller to speed up the glue-spreading process when gluing up the rocker laminations.

Rocker

DPB
29th March 2005, 08:58 PM
Don,

You will find that the Timbecon UF glue has no instructions on the proportion of hardener to use. I used 1:8, which is the same ratio as the amount of hardener supplied to the amount of glue, and it worked fine. But you need to use a rubber roller to speed up the glue-spreading process when gluing up the rocker laminations.

Rocker
Thanks for the "heads up", Rocker.:)

sinjin1111
31st March 2005, 07:53 PM
Hello, a long time ago i used to be a boatbuilder. In those days i only ever used 2 sorts of glue. If you can gets heaps of pressure uniformly then UF is the best. If you can't get very good even pressure then epoxy. Epoxy shouldn't be put under big pressure anyway.
For the guys using epoxy i can't remind you enough to use protective gear. I have permanent epoxy poisoning and its not nice at all. Over many years of breathing fumes and contact with skin. All i need now is to go into a room with freshly mixed epoxy and i will break out in a rash. You also get the added effect of a burning sensation and you feel like you are running a temp and generally pretty awful. You can go for quite some time in certain cases and have no problems and some never do. And others will become sensitised after one session.

Rocker
31st March 2005, 08:40 PM
Don,

I think you are better off using UF glue for bent laminations. It sets rock hard and does not creep at all, whereas I am afraid that epoxy might, with the stress that it is under holding the curve of rockers. But Techniglue epoxy would be much cheaper than Araldite for the M&T and dowel joints in your rocker. Although, you could probably use UF glue for them too if you prefer.

I got some Techniglue epoxy today for the large jarrah table I am making. I prefer Techniglue to West system epoxy, since Techniglue comes in the form of a gel which spreads easily, and fills gaps, but does not run. West system epoxy is too runny, I find, although I believe you can get a filler for it to increase the viscosity.

Rocker

markharrison
1st April 2005, 11:11 AM
Rocker,

Epoxy creep? That would be big news and contrary to everything I've ever heard or read.

West System epoxy is runny for a reason. It's used for other things besides joinery. The good thing about being runny is that it is easily metered with the pump system (which I highly recommend people buy) which makes it much easier to get a consistent formulation than with a gel product which requires careful manual measurement. The pumps also make for less things to clean up.

The fillers, as you correctly state, give you the same effect. The correct filler for joinery with West System is the 403 Microfibers stuff. Evil stuff if you make a cloud of dust with it so don't breathe this stuff in. That could also be said about the fumes from West System epoxy, or any other brand for that matter. The fillers are inexpensive.

With the filler, just add enough until you get the consistency you want. I usually make it so it will still sag.

Everything you ever wanted to know about West System epoxy (and then some!) can be found here: http://www.westsystem.com/

Rocker
1st April 2005, 12:58 PM
Mark,

I was put on my guard about the possibility of at least some epoxies creeping by the description in the Lee Valley catalogue of their G1 and G2 epoxy. It says "Ideal where flexibility is required. The joint will yawn rather than fracture." That sounds like creep to me; you would not want the laminations on a rocker yawning.

Rocker

markharrison
2nd April 2005, 07:21 PM
Sounds like a product specific problem. But I've been wrong before...