which book to buy

[charlsie]

just wondering which "how to build a kayak" book would be best to buy for a novice. i have the tools and timber to build one, just the knowledge is what i need now

[b.o.a.t.]

Which book might depend a bit on what design & method...
Skin on frame / ply panels / clinker plywood (lapstrake) / strip plank ?
here are a few possibilities at Duck Flat, just to get the ball rolling...

Strip Plank - Duck Flat Wooden Boats (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/picturebig.php?Folder=../bookpics&File=3-231-5.jpg)
Clinker plywood - Duck Flat Wooden Boats (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/picturebig.php?Folder=../bookpics&File=3-231-33.jpg)
Skin on frame - Duck Flat Wooden Boats (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/picturebig.php?Folder=../bookpics&File=3-231-19.jpg)

Which design ?
How much info is in the plans ?
How much support can the designer give you ?
regards
Alan

[charlsie]

thanks allan,great links and aussie as well.strip plank is the preferred method as i own a lucas mill so supply is not a worry.for the hull do you think californian redwood would be to soft?

[b.o.a.t.]

Strip boats have been built in western red cedar, pawlonia and balsa.
Hard to imagine anything softer than those three.
Key seems to be build in the lightest timber available, and give it a coat of glass inside and out for ding and scratch resistance.
Never built in strip, so I am not the authority on this.
cheers

[charlsie]

thanks allan for your replies.when i find a build that i think i can do i'll do a wip thread regards andrew

[b.o.a.t.]

since you have timber you plan to use & therefore I assume are contemplating strip plank,
you might like to read through Labr@'s Flathead build at http://www.woodworkforums.com/f32/flathead-121075/
Seriously detailed with photos. A really nice boat too.
He doesn't write much in these forums any more, presumably because he's
too busy fishing & paddling.

Also Wooden kayak designs by One Ocean Kayaks (http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/) "workshop" is a step-by-step build
of one of their designs, with lots of notes & pics on building accessories.

Blue Heron Kayaks (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) also has good info & pics.,
as do Pygmy Boat Kits: Voted Best Wooden Kayak Kit (http://www.pygmyboats.com/)

If you decide to go multi-chine plywood, then my last build should give some
ideas on how not to do it http://www.woodworkforums.com/f32/clayton-bay-144lv-12ft-plywood-kayak-87199/

Also look at Eureka builds over in Michael Storer's sub-forum Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/)

JEM Watercraft - Canoe Plans, Kayak Plans, other Boat Plans (http://www.jemwatercraft.com/index.php) have a lot of reasonably priced plans.
Look for threads by Hairymick as he has built several of JEM's boats & is very happy with them.

hope this helps you get started.
cheers
Alan

[anewhouse]

I am currently working on my 9th strip built kayak, so I might be able to answer some of your questions.

I have followed Nick Schade's methods fairly closely, partly because the first two strip kayaks I built were his designs. The later ones have all been my own designs created with the free software available on the Blue Heron site.

Boat Building Books | Guillemot Kayaks (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/catalog/boat_building_books)

I suggest that you register on the Blue Heron site. While there are a few strip kayak and canoe builders on this site, there are hundreds on the Blue Heron site. You are much more likely to find someone there with answers to any questions that might crop up.

[charlsie]

thanks allan and anewhouse,that's a great read on the flathead.it's funny how such a small world it is! i've supplied cole clarke guitars with a very small amount of timber over the years.after reading labrats thread and talking to a mate,i might have a look at a canoe for a first build as in my mind that might be a bit easier than a kayak. i also forgot to mention that the primary idea is for my kids 13,11 and 8 years old to be able to paddle around the local lake and rivers.if they enjoy it enough,then hopefully it might lead to a small sailboat.anewhouse thanks for the heads up on the other site.
regards andrew

[fubar]

gday charlsie,

Currently readimg Nick Schade's Building strip-planked boats, as I am also in the throws of starting a canoe build and in some of the reading ive done they mention building from redwood and i was going to give you a call regarding some of your redwood that you showed me a while back ,to use as contrasting timber. Looks like I will make mine from paulownia(from plantation shutters) with other timber for highlights.
Good bargain regarding the power feed will make cutting strips a breeze.

[charlsie]

thanks fub,let us know how the book goes and the auto feed is fixed i just have to mount it:2tsup:

[anewhouse]

i might have a look at a canoe for a first build as in my mind that might be a bit easier than a kayak.
regards andrew

I am not sure that there would be a huge difference between the work involved in a kayak compared with a canoe.

You would need more freeboard on a canoe, so that would reduce the difference in the area to be covered by strips. A lot of canoe designs are significantly wider than kayaks, so that would reduce the difference even more. So there might be nearly the same amount of work in the stripping part of the process.

The work involved in construction of the cockpit for the kayak would be partly offset by the need to finish off the gunwales on the canoe.

However a big difference would be in the amount of work sanding the inside. Normal practice with a kayak is just to make it smooth enough so that there are not steps to create places where the glass can's sit in contact with the timber. A little bit more time might be spent on the bit that can be seen through the cockpit. :)

With a canoe, you will be looking at most of the inside of the hull while paddling and it will be easily seen by hordes of admirers. You will probably want it looking better than is necessary on the inside of a kayak. Depending on the tools you have and the level of perfection you want in the visible finished surfaces, it is possible that a canoe would take as long to build. There are a few techniques involved in the kayak construction that don't apply with a canoe and vice versa.

I would suggest that it is more important to consider the sort of water the craft will be used on and the sort of paddling the children will be doing rather than ease of construction.

Another consideration is that while there are single canoes and there are double kayaks, the vast majority of canoes are paddled by two people and the vast majority of kayaks are singles. A small single paddler in a canoe in just a light wind can find it impossible to control a canoe while two paddlers would find it much easier.

I think you should concentrate more on the use of the craft rather than its construction.

[charlsie]

trying to post and forum drops out

[charlsie]

anewhouse, i think you've hit the nail on the head so at the moment being on a lake what type of build would you suggest

[anewhouse]

Paddling conditions and paddler's experience vary so much that I hesitate to offer a definitive answer. However, I will offer a few comments to get you thinking and possibly to encourage some suggestions from others.

One of the problems that can arise paddling on a lake and which is rarely a problem on a river is the wind. On a river, the banks tend to funnel the wind in such a way that you are paddling directly into the wind or with it (it usually seems to be against it :)) ). Kayaks and canoes are fairly easy to control and fairly safe in those conditions. On some lakes, the broad expanse of open water can allow bigger waves to build up and it is also possible that the wind and those wave will be side on. A kayak is likely to be less affected by side winds than a canoe and is less affected by waves splashing against the side and over the top. I am not suggesting that you would send the children out in dangerous conditions, but on a lake conditions can sometimes change unexpectedly.

It is possible to get into difficulties in any craft if conditions get beyond the ability of the paddler to cope, but generally a kayak will cope better with difficult conditions. While you are not planning to send the children out on the open ocean, consider that most ocean paddlers use kayaks rather than canoes.

So the fact that you mention lake paddling makes me lean more towards a kayak rather than a canoe.

I mentioned before, the fact that canoes are most often doubles and kayaks are most often singles. There are those who describe doubles as "divorce boats" because husbands and wives sometimes find they want to do different things when they are on the water. I wonder whether siblings might find the same problem and might prefer to be in sole control when out on the water. If so, then a single kayak (or two) might lead to fewer disagreements.

There are craft that try to be all purpose. They look a bit like a cross between a canoe and a kayak with a big enough cockpit to allow either one paddler in the middle or one at each end. Some people like them, but I don't. My attitude is that by trying to be versatile, they finish up not being especially good at anything. They tend to be wider than normal kayaks and so are slow and awkward to paddle. They also have so little deck at the ends that the problem of being swamped still remains.

Some kayak designs are better than others and some are more suitable for young children. I am a big fan of light, efficient kayaks that are not bigger than they need to be for their intended use. I am currently building one of my own design for my granddaughter to grow into. She is currently only about one third the age of your youngest, so it is a bit smaller than you would want. I think that anything shorter than about three metres is too short and anything over four and a half metres is too big for children the age of yours. The one I am building a similar to the smaller version of Joe Greenley's "Parr". Parr (http://www.redfishkayak.com/parr.htm)

Things to consider when thinking about an appropriate length are that it is easier to design an efficient, stable, straight tracking about four metres long than it is to get the same stability and tracking in a kayak under three metres. There is a place for very short kayaks where extremely quick turning is needed. After all, that is the sort of craft they use in the white water events in the Olympics. However, they take a lot of skill to paddle. Short kayaks can also be harder to build because the bends in the strips take place over a shorter length.

We all have our prejudices and preferences and I notice that mine are beginning to emerge in this post. Hopefully others will have further input to balance my bias. As I said, all I want to do is offer some ideas to get you thinking and encourage discussion.

[charlsie]

alot of valid points,so you do have me thinking alot.which might make the decision a bit harder but for a better outcome

[b.o.a.t.]

Ok.... I'll bite ;-)
I come from the opposite direction to Allan - hardly set foot in a kayak until i was in my 20's.
All my teen-age paddling was in canadians (or 'canoe' if you prefer).
Agree with all of Allan's points regarding windage, although with exception of long, straight-
keeled touring boats, most kayaks of my experience tend to weathercock in a cross-wind.
A canoe or hybrid can often be 'balanced' by moving forwards or aft to adjust pitch.
The two person boat is no problem if the paddlers get on well, and are prepared to work
together on where they want to go, and what they want to do next.

A well designed canoe, carefully paddled, can stay more or less dry up until the point that
waves are breaking over the sides. A mate & I paddled his 14' Rosco from Nudgee Beach to
Bishop Island (now the Port of Brisbane container terminal) in weather that had speed-boats
turning back to shelter. Shipped maybe 2 or 3 litres of spray, tops. A kayak in the same water
would have needed a spray deck to avoid swamping. The extra beam of a canoe gives a
greater sense of stability in calm waters for beginners. The open top doesn't present the
common mental barrier of "how do I get out if I capsize". To my mind, a canoe is easier to
use in a range of activities on flat water - touring, fishing, general fiddling about.
Even surfing is possible with care in small waves.

Whatever the boat, volume is the killer for kids in wind.

Having sung the open canoe's praises, we've only (as a family) owned one. Once the kids
got too big for all 4 of us to fit, I switched back to kayaks to give them independence
of movement. There wasn't much around at the time in the way of boat designs for kids.
After weeks of searching I located just 2, and didn't like either of them. So I designed a
series of kayaks for my family. Very easy to do with software now available.
The boats grew as the kids did.

Design #1 - 73" x 17" - was a shrunken & decked approximation of a sailing skiff design.
Very short & unstable. My daughter has good balance & had no worries.
My son hated them.
235761

Design #2 - 90" x 30" - was designed around my growing son's desire for more stability.
Also a shrunken & decked version of a sailing boat. It was 'fat' enough to support my 100kg.
But it was beyond my 8y/o daughter's strength to paddle in any sort of wind on any sort
of water - just blew across the surface.
235758 235760

She had no problems with design #3 - 130" x 17" - longer, narrower & lower.
Designed for people in the 25 to 45 kg weight range, and to handle choppy water.
Pygmy Canoes offer a similar design, maybe a bit larger.
235759

All the above boats have since been out-grown & gone.

Hope that gives more food for thought anyway.
cheers
Alan J

[charlsie]

trying to upgrade so i can respond properly to your replys