Old verses New

[GSRocket]

Just for the sake of a discussion, I would like to get various points of view...
Sometime in the future I'll be wanting a lathe with about a 1 metre bed.
I love the look of machinery from the '50s and early '60s.
If I was to obtain a Colchester or any of the other quality name from this era for a bargain, say $1000 - $2000
and was happy to spend time and money on bringing it to near new condition... Would I have a superior lathe
for regular work then I would by buying a H&F lathe for $5000?

[simonl]

Just for the sake of a discussion, I would like to get various points of view...
Sometime in the future I'll be wanting a lathe with about a 1 metre bed.
I love the look of machinery from the '50s and early '60s.
If I was to obtain a Colchester or any of the other quality name from this era for a bargain, say $1000 - $2000
and was happy to spend time and money on bringing it to near new condition... Would I have a superior lathe
for regular work then I would by buying a H&F lathe for $5000?

Hi Rocket,

I don't think anyone could argue with your reasoning about classic old versus Chinese new. The curves alone on some of the older style machines are works of art, let alone the quality of workmanship!

The questions that need to be asked (and answered by yourself) would be just how much work are you prepared to do on an old machine? I assume you are considering this proposition because you have the required equipment. skills and time to totally rebuilt a machine. If you look at Stuarts thread on hand scraping his cross slide, you can get an appreciation of one one leads to another. You may need to book yourself in for therapy by the end of it!

If you are a fitter/turner or similar then I'm probably telling you to suck eggs so sorry about that, you certainly don't need advice from a backyard novice like me! I would certainly love to do a similar thing to what you are suggesting but for myself who does not even have a sizeable surface plate let alone straight edges and the like, it's a mere romance at this stage!

If you don't already, I would get my hands on a book on machine tool rebuilding. There are quite a few out there, I only have the one by connelly which I have read a few chapters on. Call me a geek but I really enjoy reading it as I don't have a machine tool background and he explains the whys and hows. It was also an eye opener on just how every precision surface ties into and has a relationship with every other precision surface on a machine!

May I also add some support and encouragement for Chinese lathes, they may lack the romance and presence of an older machine but they are very practical, do the job reasonably well and at a fraction of the price.

Like I said, if you have the time, tools and skills then why not!!? Make sure you start a thread on it with lots of pics.

Good luck!

Simon

[MarkZ]

Hi Rocket

I tend to agree with Simon about the questions you need to ask yourself.

I've just bought a new Chinese lathe and there are a lot of things about them that make me cringe but I've been looking at second hand lathes for about 9 months and good stuff like Colchester (and other European brands) still goes for a packet and that's with many years of wear. Reconditioning a machine tool needs specialist skills and generally other even bigger machine tools. The bigger ones will need to be outsourced.

So I guess it come down to do you want a project of reconditioning a lathe which may mean something as simple as a clean right up to full strip down and machining the bed, carriage,tailstock. headstock, scraping and scraping, replacing bearings, etc, etc, Many thousands of dollars.

Or do you just want to make stuff?

That's what made me decide to buy new. Ironically it hasn't turned out plain sailing if you check out my thread but the big expensive bits are all good and with a bit of preparation I'll have a good lathe.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Mark.

[RayG]

Just my personal view, I think it depends on where you are starting from, and what you want to do with it.. any lathe that does the job you want is better than not having one.

Now to elaborate, it comes down to a simple question what do you need to do the job, then get something that's a bit better.

If you (like lots of us here on this forum) just get a kick out of elegant older machines and don't mind the hassles of restoration, there are some good bargains to be had if you keep looking.

Regards
Ray

[morrisman]

Not all old lathes are worn out

If are not in a hurry, then you can look around and pick up a older lathe that has been looked after and with minimal wear .

Depends on where you live to some degree, the larger cities had more industrial shops and schools that have disposed of their machinery , that means more to choose from .

there is great looking Hercus on Ebay right now for $1600,

HERCUS PRECISION METAL WORKSHOP LATHE 9in SWING X 22in BC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HERCUS-PRECISION-METAL-WORKSHOP-LATHE-9in-SWING-X-22in-BC-/170920488789?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item27cba7af55)



Mike

[Anorak Bob]

Rocket,

I've been meaning to ask for some time. Do you have or did you have one of Birmingham Small Arms rarer than rare offerings?

BT

[morrisman]

Rocket,

I've been meaning to ask for some time. Do you have or did you have one of Birmingham Small Arms rarer than rare offerings?

BT

No , he owns a 2 stroke Bantam

[Anorak Bob]

No , he owns a 2 stroke Bantam

No no. Not the Chook!

[jack620]

Sometime in the future I'll be wanting a lathe with about a 1 metre bed.

Do you mean 1m between centres? Like a 12x36 size machine? There are some good used Taiwanese ones around.

Personally I wouldn't buy a particular lathe because I like the look of it. I would decide what specs I wanted, then set about finding a lathe that meets those specs and isn't worn out. For me, the novelty of restoring an old machine would wear off very quickly. If you've ever renovated a house you'll know where I coming from. :no:

Chris

[GSRocket]

Rocket,

I've been meaning to ask for some time. Do you have or did you have one of Birmingham Small Arms rarer than rare offerings?
BT


No , he owns a 2 stroke Bantam


No no. Not the Chook!


Heh, heh, No not me :)
I hada Triumph Trident once, a cousin to BSA.... but I don't think I'm anywhere near the same page. :B

[Anorak Bob]

I'd buy a machine because of its looks. :U

[Anorak Bob]

Heh, heh, No not me :)
I hada Triumph Trident once, a cousin to BSA.... but I don't think I'm anywhere near the same page. :B I'm getting misty remembering the sound of the Trident. Pure music.

[GSRocket]

Do you mean 1m between centres? Like a 12x36 size machine? There are some good used Taiwanese ones around.

Personally I wouldn't buy a particular lathe because I like the look of it. I would decide what specs I wanted, then set about finding a lathe that meets those specs and isn't worn out. For me, the novelty of restoring an old machine would wear off very quickly. If you've ever renovated a house you'll know where I coming from. :no:

Chris
Yeh, just approx 1m or a bit less between centres.
The renovation part is something I would enjoy :stretcher:
Not quite into the exact nut & bolt type restoration, I'm more of a custom car type of guy.
So I would modernise and alter things (tastefully of course).
But I want to be practical about it. At the end of the day it has to be at least as useful and easy to use, preferably better, then a modern equivalent for the money spent.
This whole world of metal working is quite new to me and I.............................................................
LOVE IT!:hpydans:
Every night I usually look at a few youtube videos and I they always make me feel like I 'no nuffin'. Which of course, is true.

[Bryan]

New junk, old junk; it'll all drive you mad. What flavour of frustration and despair do you prefer? To me the perfect lathe would be an older, quality machine in good nick, but they're pretty rare. I tried to buy one but failed because I didn't know enough to assess it properly. Ended up with a lifelong project.

Here's a crazy idea: Buy a cheap used chinese lathe and use it learn how to rebuild a lathe. Not such a biggie if you goof it. You'll end up with a capable machine and you'll know better what to look for in a keeper.

Edit: I just read your last post. Rebuilding here does not mean paint and replacement parts. It means precision scraping. That's a big commitment that you need to understand before taking on. OTOH, worn machines are still useful and fun.

[Ueee]

I agree with Bryan, junk is junk and in my experience the new chinese stuff in junk. I do only own one new chinese machine, my mill, but even a half worn out 2nd hand mill would be as accurate. I think i seem to have seen the worst end of asian gear but it has put me off for life. On the other hand i have 3 old machines(1915 Leblond, pre 1927 shaper and 1950's lathe) and they may have there issues but i have not regretted buying one of them.
Doing a "Dulux" rebuild on the shaper was a great deal of fun, and very educational, even if the parts where huge to the point of being immovable without mechanical aid. Just getting to know how everything works i think is a great thing, so when you engage a clutch or move a lever you know what is happening internally. The shaper will get scraped, once i can afford a surface plate big enough.
The biggest issue you may face rebuilding a lathe is that you really need another lathe to fix certain things. My little lathe is still awaiting new bearings, simply because the idea of machining a bearing, having to pull the headstock apart to see if it fits, putting it back together to take another cut.......not my idea of fun!
Another thing to consider in your budget is the cost of getting a lathe bed re-ground, if needed and worthwhile. It is not cheap, but i don't really know just how much it would cost. It may be worth contacting these guys Machine tools Rebuils Retrofits sydney (http://www.mtasupport.com.au/machine_tool_factory_facilities.html) a call/email to get a rough idea (and if you do you might post it here too :)) The bottom line is though, if the bed needs ground then the rest of the lathe may also be in a poor state.

Edit, the forum keeps changing my smiley into a ROFL....???? it should be this one :)

[Michael G]

I saw this question earlier but have been busier than normal today so have had all day to dwell on the issue. I use large ex-industrial machines, so my thoughts are on this size/ class of machine. This may resonate with other members but for me it's about some perceptions I have –
· Prior to the mid '70's, a company (especially a machine tool maker) was more likely to be run by a technical person than a 'professional manager'. I like to think you are more likely to have a product build with some appreciation of the function of the machine rather than its margin.
· Also prior to this (before the advent of CNC) it was recognised that lathes, mills etc were likely to be used by someone wanting to use them for manufacturing – there was skill involved both in making the machine and the role the machine would be put to. I like to think that (especially in the older machinists and inspectors) there was some pride (work ethic?) in making a good product and an understanding that the users would appreciate a good machine.
· The other perception I have is value for money. The price of an old used machine is ridiculously low when you think about the features, the amount of material in it and the way it feels and works. That's not to say this is uniform across the old/ new machine divide. I have a Swedish mill because English ones of the same vintage were by comparison very poorly featured. However, if I tried to find a new machine with the same features it would cost a lot more.
This is not to say that some new machines don't come from factories that are run by technical people or that production personnel do take pride in what they do but I think it is much harder to find those companies. Having said that, I bought a Chinese bandsaw 8 to 10 years back that I think is wonderful and throws doubt on a lot of the arguments I have made, but I think that 'good' Chinese is rarely imported into Australia, so there is not much choice out there.
Since the '70's too there has been more disposable income around which I think has fuelled a growth in the sales of machine tools for hobby purposes. That's not bad, but at the same time I think it has pushed the market to the low cost end. While I think a Myford is too small and wouldn't buy one, at the hobbyist end of the market for the cost of a Myford you can buy an awful lot of cheaper machines.

Michael

[chambezio]

Michael G raised a question in my mind. We hear an awfull lot of how bad the Chinese stuff is etc etc, so my question is"Do the Chinese only make junk or do they actually make descent stuff that no body talks about?" Another picture that came to my mind while reading all the previous threads was Humphrey Bogart in the African Queen, coxing the old and worn out steam boiler in to action and his an-ticks keeping it going. To me, he showed a certain admiration for the old girl knowing what he had done with her over the years and having to work that bit harder to keep her going. I can see a lot of us blokes with the same admiration for a ton of cast iron with belts and gears and leavers My old lathe is German in origin and is over a century in age. For me its fine. I do get a bit frustrated when turning some thing small that has to be accurate. Its definitely not a production lathe just one lounging in retirement.....something like its owner Edit...Why won't the text respond to paragraph insertion? It just bunches all the text together. (May be the new software here is Chinese)

[Gavin Newman]

Just for the sake of a discussion, I would like to get various points of view...
Sometime in the future I'll be wanting a lathe with about a 1 metre bed.
I love the look of machinery from the '50s and early '60s.
If I was to obtain a Colchester or any of the other quality name from this era for a bargain, say $1000 - $2000
and was happy to spend time and money on bringing it to near new condition... Would I have a superior lathe
for regular work then I would by buying a H&F lathe for $5000?

You are considering a $5k lathe from H&F so you are in the area of the Taiwanese lathes such as the AL960B. From my experience of having a Chinese AL320G and now the AL960B the fit, finish and smoothness of controls is leagues apart.

Like many on the forum I am a lover of old machinery (1950s power saw, post drill and drill presses) and I looked at a Mars and a coupe of other oler lathes when I started looking for lathes but they all needed work and the reality is that I needed the machine to make parts for Superkarts from day one so it was a no-brainer for me.

So it would be worth looking at the AL960B or similar lathe before making a decision.