Toothing Planes

[pmcgee]

The Toothing Plane: A Tool of Our Time | Anthony Hay's, Cabinetmaker (http://anthonyhaycabinetmaker.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/the-toothing-plane-a-tool-of-our-time/)

[petersemple]

One of my books on making acoustic guitars recommends using a plane with just a few wide teeth for planing down the thin plates, mostly so that you can make sure you have covered the entire surface of the thin timber evenly - the teeth enable you to see where you have been.

[pmcgee]

One of my books on making acoustic guitars recommends using a plane with just a few wide teeth

Hi. Sorry to be thick - I'm trying to picture what you mean - 'wide' in the sense of wide apart at the tips? or flattened triangles that don't come to a point? ... or ... ?

(The old toothed blades I have are 30 and 50 teeth across 2 inches.)

Thanks,
Paul

[petersemple]

SOrry, what I meant was take a Stanley #4 or #5, and file say 4 or 5 triangle notches out of the blade, spaced evenly across the blade. That way it mostly just planes, but it leaves behind a few hills to that you can see where you have planed and where you haven't. Then you just plane or scrape off the hills.

[auscab]

The Toothing Plane.

The most miss understood , miss described secret of the Cabinet Makers tool chest that exists.

[IanW]

The Toothing Plane.

The most miss understood , miss described secret of the Cabinet Makers tool chest that exists.

You're not wrong about the secrecy, Auscab - I certainly have never heard any compelling reasons why I should own a toothed blade. Reading the link above has provided me with the only plausible reason I've heard so far, & that is the claim that they work cranky grain better than a simple blade? :?

I'll be provocative by declaring that the common myth about these blades, i.e. that they prepare a good ground for glueing, is just plain wrong. While intuition may suggest that the rough surface acts to 'key' the glue, it's not the way glue works, when it's working properly, which is to form molecular bonds with the wood material. This was researched by materials engineers between the WWs., so it's not recent knowledge. It was shown that scuffing up wood fibres actually weakens the glue joint. The strongest glue bonds come from having two clean & closely-opposed surfaces. These guys were taking glue bonds very seriously, at the time, beause they were sticking wooden aeroplane frames together, and they thought it might be a good thing if they remained stuck under the sorts of stresses that furniture is not usually called on to bear outside of the odd bar-room brawl.

Cheers,

[Woodwould]

I'll be provocative by declaring that the common myth about these blades, i.e. that they prepare a good ground for glueing, is just plain wrong. While intuition may suggest that the rough surface acts to 'key' the glue, it's not the way glue works, when it's working properly, which is to form molecular bonds with the wood material. This was researched by materials engineers between the WWs., so it's not recent knowledge. It was shown that scuffing up wood fibres actually weakens the glue joint. The strongest glue bonds come from having two clean & closely-opposed surfaces. These guys were taking glue bonds very seriously, at the time, beause they were sticking wooden aeroplane frames together, and they thought it might be a good thing if they stayed stuck under the sorts of stresses that furniture is not usually called on to bear outside of the odd bar-room brawl.

Cheers,
As you might have anticipated I have to take issue with this Ian. I can hammer modern 1/42" to 3/64" thick veneer without toothing the ground, but > 3/64" (1.2mm) veneer will often spring up if the ground isn't toothed. What you're describing may be related to modern adhesives, but toothing the ground and/or veneer for use with animal glue has been proven to work for centuries.

I wrote a little bit about toothing planes here (http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/preparing-groundwork-for-veneering/).

[mic-d]

I'll be provocative by declaring that the common myth about these blades, i.e. that they prepare a good ground for glueing, is just plain wrong. While intuition may suggest that the rough surface acts to 'key' the glue, it's not the way glue works, when it's working properly, which is to form molecular bonds with the wood material. This was researched by materials engineers between the WWs., so it's not recent knowledge. It was shown that scuffing up wood fibres actually weakens the glue joint. The strongest glue bonds come from having two clean & closely-opposed surfaces. These guys were taking glue bonds very seriously, at the time, beause they were sticking wooden aeroplane frames together, and they thought it might be a good thing if they stayed stuck under the sorts of stresses that furniture is not usually called on to bear outside of the odd bar-room brawl.

Cheers,


As you might have anticipated I have to take issue with this Ian. I can hammer modern 1/42" to 3/64" thick veneer without toothing the ground, but > 3/64" (1.2mm) veneer will often spring up if the ground isn't toothed. What you're describing may be related to modern adhesives, but toothing the ground and/or veneer for use with animal glue has been proven to work for centuries.

I wrote a little bit about toothing planes here (http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/preparing-groundwork-for-veneering/).

I wonder whether you're not both right? What would you have in the case of hammer veneering? You probably have a ground that is prepared fairly smooth and you may have a smooth thin modern veneer that goes as limp as a boned fish when moistened with hide glue, so once it is hammered down there aren't many forces at work that the thin layer of hide glue can't overcome. But if you have a thicker veneer, it may want to distort and carry on when moistened with hide glue even if it is sized and the thin layer of glue may not be able to retain it (somewhat akin to overclamping starvation). But if the ground is scarified with a mesh of very fine trenches, there would be retained between the veneer and the ground a network of hide glue with more holding power, ie the toothing makes it impossible to starve the veneering of glue, no matter how thorough you are with the hammer. (?)

[Woodwould]

I wonder whether you're not both right? What would you have in the case of hammer veneering? You probably have a ground that is prepared fairly smooth and you may have a smooth thin modern veneer that goes as limp as a boned fish when moistened with hide glue, so once it is hammered down there aren't many forces at work that the thin layer of hide glue can't overcome. But if you have a thicker veneer, it may want to distort and carry on when moistened with hide glue even if it is sized and the thin layer of glue may not be able to retain it (somewhat akin to overclamping starvation). But if the ground is scarified with a mesh of very fine trenches, there would be retained between the veneer and the ground a network of hide glue with more holding power, ie the toothing makes it impossible to starve the veneering of glue, no matter how thorough you are with the hammer. (?)
That indeed is my understanding. I'm not very familiar with modern (at the time of the early twentieth-century tests Ian cites) adhesives, but I can see how they might not work as well with toothed surfaces because – in my limited experience – they're not sticky and dry/set-up completely differently to animal glues.

[IanW]

As you might have anticipated I have to take issue with this Ian. I can hammer modern 1/42" to 3/64" thick veneer without toothing the ground, but > 3/64" (1.2mm) veneer will often spring up if the ground isn't toothed. What you're describing may be related to modern adhesives, but toothing the ground and/or veneer for use with animal glue has been proven to work for centuries.

I wrote a little bit about toothing planes here (http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/preparing-groundwork-for-veneering/).

WW, I can't dispute your empirical results, but if I understand you correctly, you are talking about short-term problems with the veneering procedure, not the ultimate strength of the bond when the glue has cured? If so, the explanion seems highly unlikely that toothing is 'keying' the glue. I would think that a major part of the effect comes from the toothing altering the surface qualities of the ground and allowing it to take up more water, which exits via the veneer, & keeps it softer & more flexible as the glue cools & sets. Toothing the veneer itself probably increases the flexibility of that, too.. Once cured, I can't imagine bond strength being an issue for well-laid veneer, because the amount of surface area is so large in proportion to the wood that even a bond that achieves only 50% of the theoretical maximum strength is probably way more than necessary to hold the veneer in place (unless you take the piece off to Darwin in the wet season.. :;)

The work I weas referring to was done in the 30's & 40's and didn't include any of the popular 'modern' glues. Their findings held for several glues, including hide glue, and they were investigating both solid wood-to-wood joints and moulded plywood joins. IIRC, they used a casein (milk-derived protein) glue to stick the early Mosquito bombesr together, but later switched to urea formaldehyde. Not because it was 'stronger' but because it was less prone to fungal & bacterial attack under the damp conditions experienced in many operational areas.

Many procedures that have been evolved over time by trial & error manifestly work, but the reason they do so may not have anything to do with the popularly-accepted explanation. When carefully controlled experiments show roughing/toothing does not improve the strength of the (cured) joint, and actually reduces it, it is certainly food for thought, if nothing else. All wood glues work by the same principle, whatever their actual chemical composition, and that is by establishing molecular bonds with the base material. These bonds are powerful, but operate over very short distances, which is partly why maximum bond strength is achieved by having the closest possible contact between the two bonded surfaces (the other part of the equation is the tensile strength of the glue materiaal itself).

Forgive me if I over-react to the 'keying' myth, but I have too often seen it used to excuse poor surface preparation..... :;

Cheers,

Edit: Micahael beat me to it, but we seem to be thinking along the same lines... :U

[Woodwould]

WW, I can't dispute your empirical results, but if I understand you correctly, you are talking about short-term problems with the veneering procedure, not the ultimate strength of the bond when the glue has cured? If so, the explanion seems highly unlikely that toothing is 'keying' the glue. I would think that a major part of the effect comes from the toothing altering the surface qualities of the ground and allowing it to take up more water, which exits via the veneer, & keeps it softer & more flexible as the glue cools & sets. Toothing the veneer itself probably increases the flexibility of that, too.. Once cured, I can't imagine bond strength being an issue for well-laid veneer, because the amount of surface area is so large in proportion to the wood that even a bond that achieves only 50% of the theoretical maximum strength is probably way more than necessary to hold the veneer in place (unless you take the piece off to Darwin in the wet season.. :;)

The work I weas referring to was done in the 30's & 40's and didn't include any of the popular 'modern' glues. Their findings held for several glues, including hide glue, and they were investigating both solid wood-to-wood joints and moulded plywood joins. IIRC, they used a casein (milk-derived protein) glue to stick the early Mosquito bombesr together, but later switched to urea formaldehyde. Not because it was 'stronger' but because it was less prone to fungal & bacterial attack under the damp conditions experienced in many operational areas.

Many procedures that have been evolved over time by trial & error manifestly work, but the reason they do so may not have anything to do with the popularly-accepted explanation. When carefully controlled experiments show roughing/toothing does not improve the strength of the (cured) joint, and actually reduces it, it is certainly food for thought, if nothing else. All wood glues work by the same principle, whatever their actual chemical composition, and that is by establishing molecular bonds with the base material. These bonds are powerful, but operate over very short distances, which is partly why maximum bond strength is achieved by having the closest possible contact between the two bonded surfaces (the other part of the equation is the tensile strength of the glue materiaal itself).

Forgive me if I over-react to the 'keying' myth, but I have too often seen it used to excuse poor surface preparation..... :;

Cheers,

Edit: Micahael beat me to it, but we seem to be thinking along the same lines... :U

Again, I must take you up on your comments. You initially claimed "...the common myth about these blades, i.e. that they prepare a good ground for gluing, is just plain wrong." which I repudiated. Latterly you talk about long term bond strength.

Toothing the surfaces when laying thick veneer is more often essential to create a decent bond when hammering with animal glues (not necessary when clamping in cauls). I am aware that some if not all modern adhesives require clamping at considerable pressures to affect a serviceable bond, but the opposite can be the case with animal glues. It is possible to over-clamp a joint and starve it of animal glue. Likewise, it's possible to over-hammer veneer, excluding too much glue from the mating surfaces.

Now that we're talking about long term bond strength however, I can report I have noticed absolutely no difference in the longevity of toothed or un-toothed animal glued veneer.

There are dozens of dubious procedures in woodworking; many dependent on tradition/personal preferences/ignorance, but when thousands of woodworkers worldwide adhere (pardon the pun) to a regimen, then I suspect it deserves due recognition. Gluing narrow wooden aircraft ribs together is not a valid comparative test in my view. I believe Cascamite (casein) glue is indeed what was used for sticking Moskitos together.

[Big Shed]

Gluing narrow wooden aircraft ribs together is not a valid comparative test in my view. I believe Cascamite (casein) glue is indeed what was used for sticking Moskitos together.

Mosquito bombers for most of their production time were actually glued with urea-formaldehyde glue, see ref from an article in Wikipedia (de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito))

"The type of glue originally used was Casein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein) resin, which was later replaced by "Aerolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolite_%28adhesive%29)", a synthetic urea-formaldehyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea-formaldehyde), which was more durable.[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito#cite_note-70)[nb 8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito#cite_note-73)"

Only reason I picked up on this is that a company I worked for sold large quantites of urea-formaldehyde glue to the plywood and veneered sheet industries.

One of our sales pitches was the u-f glue was specifically developed for the production of the Mosquito bomber.

There you go, bit of (useless?) trivia for you.:;

[mic-d]

Likewise, it's possible to over-hammer veneer, excluding too much glue from the mating surfaces.


Now you've done it, I'm going to have nightmares for weeks... again.:sad2::)

[Woodwould]

Now you've done it, I'm going to have nightmares for weeks... again.:sad2::)

As long as your glue wasn't too thin everything should be fine.

[mic-d]

As long as your glue wasn't too thin everything should be fine.

Oh yes, the sixteeth time everything went swimmingly, everything's fine now :twitch twitch:, the drugs and therapy are helping. However, the first fifteen times may have taken their toll on my sanity :twitch twitch: :;:D

[orraloon]

This is just a general observation and I have to say that I have not ever had my hands on a toothing plane so only going on what I have read.
While studying methods of construction for traditional archery bows as in the asian or turkish design they used a toothing tool on both surfaces to be joined. They used a fish bladder glue and due to the very high stress on the glue joints found that only toothed joints worked. The reason being is that the surface area was greatly increased so more glue interface gave more holding power. Perhaps a bit off field but demonstrates the idea. Those old craftsmen passed along many hundreds of years of skill to the next generation entering the craft and why would they stick with something unless it worked for them.
Regards
John

[Virgil]

Have not used a toothing plane or hide glue but am wondering why veneering required toothing and a good old rubbed joint didn't.

Any ideas?

Cheerio,
Virg.

[Woodwould]

Have not used a toothing plane or hide glue but am wondering why veneering required toothing and a good old rubbed joint didn't.

Any ideas?

Cheerio,
Virg.

When rubbing glue blocks, their surface area is relatively small and their faces are normally planed flat; therefore there are no forces at play trying to peel the glue block off. Thick veneer can generate significant forces, especially when wetted with glue and will often try and rip itself off the groundwork. If I'm rubbing a moulding onto a chest or table and the length of moulding has taken on a twist or is warped, I will tooth the back of it and the groundwork before rubbing it in place.

[JDarvall]

I'd say that it depends on the forces the joint will be exposed to. ie. the type of joint.

M&T is an example of where I think keying must help with hide glue.

How I visualise it and its a simple way of looking at it (but hey prove it wrong)......if a mortise is scratched up and the matching tenon has matching scratches and hide glue when set is rock hard keying must help stop the tenon from pulling out ? You've seen hide glue set. Rock hard glues going to be crossing the mortise tenon lines. Its going to be like trying to turn a key that doesn't fit a lock. (pins don't line up)

[bridger]

so toothing has some procedural advantages in hammer veneering. it has no structural advantage in high performance joinery like wooden airplane manufacture. it helps reduce tearout when planing highly figured wood. all good data points. here's a bit of conjecture- before modern glues, and before modern air conditioning, furniture was routinely subject to conditions far more variable than today. the slightly fuzzy surface presented by a toothed surface within a joint gave a lower absolute strength, but a higher resiliency to wood movement. if the joinery alone was adequate to support all loads the piece would see, a somewhat resilient glue line would survive better over time. modern glues and production methods have made traditional joinery like through tenons, dovetails and so on structurally unnecessary. thus the toothing plane has become a bit of a relic from the golden age of veneering, seeing a bit of a resurgence for use preparing figured woods. should traditional hammer veneering continue to gain interest also, toothing planes will likely become far more available, understood and used.

but then again, I may be totally off base.

Bridger

[JDarvall]

another point that supports keying which I think relates is that porous timbers glue stronger with hide glue. An article I read recently where proper strength tests were done proved it. An example they gave was that hide glueup of old mahogany furniture proved successful because mahogany was porous (thats just what I read)

so porous timber gives places for the glue to fall into..... And isn't that what keying does .....gives places for glue to fall into.

Must help generally imo, for joints where forces run perpendicular to keying.

[JDarvall]

How Strong is Your Glue? - Fine Woodworking PDF Cover page (http://www.finewoodworking.com/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=28897)

It was in here I think about porous timbers gluing better with hide. Betcha porous timber is related to keying. But thats just my theory ( a theory thats no doubt been thought of thouuuusands of times before) . Might be going off track a bit sorry.

[IanW]

.....M&T is an example of where I think keying must help with hide glue.

How I visualise it and its a simple way of looking at it (but hey prove it wrong)......if a mortise is scratched up and the matching tenon has matching scratches and hide glue when set is rock hard keying must help stop the tenon from pulling out ? You've seen hide glue set. Rock hard glues going to be crossing the mortise tenon lines. Its going to be like trying to turn a key that doesn't fit a lock. (pins don't line up)

Jake, that is the sort of good intuitive thinking that makes us believe roughed-up surfaces must produce a better bond. However, the forces in play with a glue bond (modern or ancient) are working at the molecular level, not the gross level. The bond between glue & substrate can be higher than the structural strength of either material, but this may not translate to a joint that is stronger, because there are discontinuities in the glue & wood which can start & propagate cracks. The thicker the glue, the more flaws there are likely to be in it, which diminishes the overalll strength of the material to well below its theoretical maximum. So joints with thick glue-lines are more likely to fail under load than those with thin glue-lines (all else being equal). The weak point in your concept is the structural strength of the glue, which in thicker sections may be less than the wood, allowing your 'keys' to fail under load before the wood does. I have confused the issue by yakking about maximum bond strength, when what we are really concerned about in day to day woodworking is sufficient bond strengh. Your M&T joint would probably have more than sufficient strengh for practical purposes, just not theoretical maximum strength.

Cheers,

[JDarvall]

Jake, that is the sort of good intuitive thinking that makes us believe roughed-up surfaces must produce a better bond. However, the forces in play with a glue bond (modern or ancient) are working at the molecular level, not the gross level. The bond between glue & substrate can be higher than the structural strength of either material, but this may not translate to a joint that is stronger, because there are discontinuities in the glue & wood which can start & propagate cracks. The thicker the glue, the more flaws there are likely to be in it, which diminishes the overalll strength of the material to well below its theoretical maximum. So joints with thick glue-lines are more likely to fail under load than those with thin glue-lines (all else being equal). The weak point in your concept is the structural strength of the glue, which in thicker sections may be less than the wood, allowing your 'keys' to fail under load before the wood does. I have confused the issue by yakking about maximum bond strength, when what we are really concerned about in day to day woodworking is sufficient bond strengh. Your M&T joint would probably have more than sufficient strengh for practical purposes, just not theoretical maximum strength.

Cheers,

I see your point.

Still think its a general thought thought based on ideal joinery. Still feel keying would help in many situations in the workshop, to help lock a joint.

eg. .... joints arn't perfect, but have to be used anyway.
Timber is greesy. ie. Doesn't glue well normally anyway.

And also, I betcha keying would definetly help in places where one part of the timber is end grain. So you could put a key (in my diagram above) top and bottom of the mortise.....A key shorely be better imo

And its hard for me to also give up just from simply looking at say the squeezeout of hide from glueup. Try and flick a (thick) bead off with your finger. The stuffs seems to retain high density even when its thick. (but thats probably too simplified) . Works like epoxy but is reversable. (If you had one of those sitting on the mortise/tenon line)

also a thought is the key needent be ruff....not sudden sharp points that propagate a crack. Could be smooth. Just an idea.

Anyway, if indeed all instances have been explored on this already, then I conceeeed.

:)

[mic-d]

Not wanting to get involved in the conjecture, just an observation... I can't imagine any historical M&T joints where the mating faces would be cleaned up very much, to even approach the fine toothing marks of the sort WW is talking about. That sort of thing surely is the reserve of modern tooling and those OCD people using hand tools.

[pmcgee]

Nice to create controversy ... :)

I assume Ian's picture of toothed gluing is of the veneer contacting the 'peaks', and not the 'troughs'.

One way it could make things stronger would be - like machine feather joints - where the troughs and peaks of one material fit into the reverse in the other. In that case surface contact could be close and the effective contact area increased.
Obviously people are not machines so I don't know if that could play any part in it. :?

WW - when you do the toothing, is there any practice of marking up in matching directions? or is it more 'random' than that?

Thanks,
Paul

Also ... from reading your article ... the three old blades I have seem to be about 15ish and 25ish tpi.
The two fine ones are Alex Mathieson, the 'rougher' one is James Cam.

They are much like these:

http://toolexchange.com.au/images1/plane8213.jpg http://toolexchange.com.au/images1/plane6895.jpg

[pmcgee]

A bit more info here ... WPatrickEdwards: More Toothing Plane Info (http://wpatrickedwards.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/more-toothing-plane-info.html)

The guy distinguishes (for tpi) between hard and soft woods.

Also ... in the comments ... says no toothing on sliced veneer, but needed for 'hand sawn' (which is a different type of rough?)

[mic-d]

The toothing planes used for hammer veneering are very fine and no attempt is made to match up grooves on veneer and ground. Indeed on thinner veneers you can't even tooth it. The reason for toothing in hammer veneering is simply that the ridges you leave provide a "screed" level, so that no matter how hard you work the hammer, you cannot starve the veneer of hide glue, and the amount remaining in the troughs is sufficient that the initial tack of hide glue can keep the veneer in place until the second curing process takes place.

[mic-d]

A bit more info here ... WPatrickEdwards: More Toothing Plane Info (http://wpatrickedwards.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/more-toothing-plane-info.html)

The guy distinguishes (for tpi) between hard and soft woods.

Also ... in the comments ... says no toothing on sliced veneer, but needed for 'hand sawn' (which is a different type of rough?)

And the reason for that is that sliced veneer is thin so when it is wet with glue it is limp and doesn't fight the glue. Sawn veneers are thicker and as we've said, thick veneers are more forceful when moistened so toothing them helps retain more hide glue so the initial tack is powerful enough to hold it.

[auscab]

The Toothing plane is used to get the best flat surface , so you don't end up with varying thicknesses of glue under your veneer. Hide glue shrinks back, cracks up and crumbles away when as much as possible is not squeezed or hammered out.

You can set your bench plane blades as fine as possible to true up your surface that is to take the veneer , but no matter how much you traverse and then straighten up, and think you have it flat, when the toothing plane is set right it will prove to you how far out you got it . Every time.

The blade must be set fine so that as you traverse it just takes the high tops off, with each change in direction you hear the amount the blade is taking off increase, and you can obviously see it as well . when the ground is totally covered with no more clear spots I give it a few straight passes , and the a light cabinet scrape to take the fur off.

When using a hammer to lay veneer I always size my veneer both sides when using hide glue, it makes a very noticeable difference as to how well it goes down, specially crotch or figured stuff . I don't do this when I press with a caul.

Another thing about "why use a toothing plane " is if you were veneering to a quality hardwood you could get away wit just using a scraper to get a good flat ground , but 90% of veneering is put down on to a softwood , and a lot of softwoods don't liked being scraped.

So in short if someone asked me why do I use a toothing plane ?
I would say because I dont want the veneer falling off down the track, and I dont want imperfections in the preparation of the ground showing up six months later. when using animal glue.

[auscab]

Some pictures237521237522237523237524237525

The Maw & Staley Blade was made between 1820 and 1840 and was our only toothing plane for a long time. The blade has about 4mm left in it.

[auscab]

More.

This is toothing down straight from the thickneser , sawn Mahogany , pressed on with av180 yellow glue.

[Woodwould]

And the reason for that is that sliced veneer is thin so when it is wet with glue it is limp and doesn't fight the glue. Sawn veneers are thicker and as we've said, thick veneers are more forceful when moistened so toothing them helps retain more hide glue so the initial tack is powerful enough to hold it.
Double cut (rotary sliced) veneer (when available) can be up to 2.5mm thick and lays better when toothed. It's a thickness requirement rather than based on the method of cutting the veneer.

Like auscab (and I think mic-d too), I size both sides of the veneer when hammering. Even so, some cuts will still try and curl up. In such cases, I have infinitely better success with toothed surfaces, only occasionally having to resort to veneer pins.

[auscab]

Here is some more of the cabinet that the veneer went on.

[derekcohen]

A variation of the toothing plane for working with veneer, is the toothing blade that may be used in a plane, such as a LA Jack, which is then used in place of a scrub or jack plane to thickness a board, or to pre-finish a surface that has interlocked grain.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P3406v1.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P3406v2.jpg

That is a LV blade. Here is a link to a video made by LN ...

Toothed Blade Demonstration - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8Tj1lUha4)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Woodwould]

A variation of the toothing plane for working with veneer, is the toothing blade that may be used in a plane, such as a LA Jack, which is then used in place of a scrub or jack plane to thickness a board, or to pre-finish a surface that has interlocked grain.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P3406v1.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/05P3406v2.jpg

That is a LV blade. Here is a link to a video made by LN ...

Toothed Blade Demonstration - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8Tj1lUha4)

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's the wrong type of blade for toothing groundwork/veneer. See the link I included in post #7.

[derekcohen]

WW

Agreed. That is why I said it was a "variation". Different purpose.

Incidentally, LN also have a toothing blade for a scraper plane. This would come closer to the traditional toothing plane ...

Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Toothed Blades (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=4)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Woodwould]

WW

Agreed. That is why I said it was a "variation". Different purpose.

Why muddy the discussion on toothing surfaces for gluing by introducing blades used for an entirely different purpose?


Incidentally, LN also have a toothing blade for a scraper plane. This would come closer to the traditional toothing plane ...

In my opinion Lee Valley's scraping plane is better than the Lie Nielsen version, but Lee Valley's serrated blade is, to my mind, too fine for preparing groundwork, so I actually use Lie Nielsen's fine blade in a Lee Valley plane.

[bridger]

the thread is general about toothing planes, not specific about toothing for veneering.

has anyone here made a toothing blade, or a toothing plane? I have a couple of blade blanks that I'm intending to make into toothing blades, then toothing planes. I'm figuring I'll sharpen a cold chisel to a low angle to cut the fine tooth one, and probably grind the teeth out on the mill for the coarse one. the blades are tapered, so they'll be for wood bodied planes with wedges, without chip breakers. the thing slowing it down right now is not being set up to heat treat and not having time. but it will happen....





Why muddy the discussion on toothing surfaces for gluing by introducing blades used for an entirely different purpose?



In my opinion Lee Valley's scraping plane is better than the Lie Nielsen version, but Lee Valley's serrated blade is, to my mind, too fine for preparing groundwork, so I actually use Lie Nielsen's fine blade in a Lee Valley plane.

[homesy135]

I have thought that keying the surface created troughs and depressions in the substrate. When the veneer is hammered into place, the air in these spaces is removed creating a vacuum between the veneer and substrate, holding it in place.

My hot glue goes on clear but is quite foamy as it is expelled from between the veneer and substrate. I have always thought this foaminess resulted from air being forced into the glue under the pressure of hammering. I even hear little crackles and pops as the glue is squeezed out.

In my hands, keying the substrate certainly makes hammer veneering easier and more successful.

[derekcohen]

the thread is general about toothing planes, not specific about toothing for veneering.

has anyone here made a toothing blade, or a toothing plane? I have a couple of blade blanks that I'm intending to make into toothing blades, then toothing planes. I'm figuring I'll sharpen a cold chisel to a low angle to cut the fine tooth one, and probably grind the teeth out on the mill for the coarse one. the blades are tapered, so they'll be for wood bodied planes with wedges, without chip breakers. the thing slowing it down right now is not being set up to heat treat and not having time. but it will happen....

Hi Bridger

I'm not sure what a cold chisel would do :o My tool of choice to form the kerfs in the blade would be a small grinder, such as a Dremel or 4" with the thin cut-off blades.

Tools For Working Wood (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-RIBPTOOTH.XX/Ray_Iles__Replacement_Block_Plane_Toothing_Irons) sell a Ray Iles toothing blade for a Stanley block plane. The teeth on this are more widely set than either the LV or LN. I'm not sure how this one compares. However it does demonstrate that there is a wider design range out there, and the simplicity of this blade may be a guide for trying in your own home brew.

The design appears directed at reducing tearout in interlocked grain (rather than surface prep for glueing).

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/ms/big/MS-RIBPTOOTHXX_big.gif

"A long time ago some luthier figured out that if you cut a series of parallel grooves perpendicular to the edge on the back of a plane iron, you can plane the long-grain woods typically used in instrument-making across the wood grain, without tear-out. The grooves break up the cutting edge to a series of tiny cutters that don’t have the collective strength to lift out and tear wood ahead of the blade. The irons do leave a rough finish, but for sculpting soundboards they are just the ticket, and have been for centuries. Another side benefit is that you don’t need a fancy plane to get this performance. Ray Iles re-introduced toothing blades at the request of an English violin making school. The students, like most students the world over, were very budget conscious, and they wanted irons to fit their frugal Stanley block planes. These irons are made of carbon steel, are very easy to sharpen and are also thicker than the stock Stanley irons, so you’ll get less chatter and increased performance � all in addition to the reduced tear-out mentioned at the start of this story. Made of high carbon steel, approx. 0.10" thick. Made in England."

Regards from Perth

Derek

[homesy135]

the thread is general about toothing planes, not specific about toothing for veneering.

has anyone here made a toothing blade, or a toothing plane? I have a couple of blade blanks that I'm intending to make into toothing blades, then toothing planes. I'm figuring I'll sharpen a cold chisel to a low angle to cut the fine tooth one, and probably grind the teeth out on the mill for the coarse one. the blades are tapered, so they'll be for wood bodied planes with wedges, without chip breakers. the thing slowing it down right now is not being set up to heat treat and not having time. but it will happen....



Sorry, read to post #15 then posted what I thought was a pertinent comment. Didn't realise another two pages of posts existed. Good luck making your blades.

[Ball Peen]

Here is some more of the cabinet that the veneer went on.

Very convincing patina Rob. Nice to see work from a working shop. How long from whoa to go ?

[auscab]

Sorry, read to post #15 then posted what I thought was a pertinent comment. Didn't realise another two pages of posts existed. Good luck making your blades.

Ha Ha :) its a bugger that one homesy, Ive done the same thing a few times as well.







Very convincing patina Rob. Nice to see work from a working shop. How long from whoa to go ?

Hi Bill, Thanks . whoa to go ? probably about 80 to 90 hours . Its got a marble insert in the top. The client came in with the piece of marble and asked if I could build a cabinet to fit it. He was asking what style did I think would be good and we had a matching pair of Biedermeier bedside cabinets that someone else had bought in for restoration. A gorgeous pair of originals. The design was taken from them, they were half as wide as the new one. I always though it was a little bit over stretched in the width but I had the job if I could use the marble and make the cabinet fit the space the client wanted .

Rob

[pmcgee]

"A long time ago some luthier figured out that if you cut a series of parallel grooves perpendicular to the edge on the back of a plane iron, you can plane the long-grain woods typically used in instrument-making across the wood grain, without tear-out. The grooves break up the cutting edge to a series of tiny cutters that don’t have the collective strength to lift out and tear wood ahead of the blade. The irons do leave a rough finish, but for sculpting soundboards they are just the ticket, and have been for centuries. Another side benefit is that you don’t need a fancy plane to get this performance. Ray Iles re-introduced toothing blades at the request of an English violin making school. The students, like most students the world over, were very budget conscious, and they wanted irons to fit their frugal Stanley block planes. These irons are made of carbon steel, are very easy to sharpen and are also thicker than the stock Stanley irons, so you’ll get less chatter and increased performance � all in addition to the reduced tear-out mentioned at the start of this story. Made of high carbon steel, approx. 0.10" thick. Made in England."


I came across this looking up toothing planes ... Antonio de Torres 1863 | Vintage Guitar® magazine (http://www.vintageguitar.com/3434/antonio-de-torres-1863/)
an aspect of ww that was completely new to me. All that thin, bent wood.
I am highly unmusical, but it was interesting thinking of the tools and saws that I have studied/thought about vs this guitar from 1863. Both obviously made to last - and to be repaired - a good lesson for today.
I don't know guitars but I get the impression this was made very simply but effectively and achieved a good result.
AND the toothing blade he used was a high-tech quality tool in his place and time.


Somewhat re the vacuum idea from Homesy ... I initially thought "yeah ..." but then ... wouldn't the vacuum effect be stronger with a pure flat surface - kinda Ian's original point - or - on porous softwoods it might not come about at all???

I haven't used hide glue or (any type of) veneer ... can it be wiggled about a bit? or is it too delicate and/or the glue is tacking up and you put it down where you need it fullstop ? I though perhaps the toothing might also work to allow a bit more movement of the veneer.

Or else, to assist the migration outwards of excess glue during the *hammering* process?
(and why isn't it called *gently persuading*? :p)

Cheers,
Paul

[Ball Peen]

Paul, luthiery was and still can be a very low tech activity. It's perfect for hand work because , compared to furniture, there isn't a lot of timber involved.
I haven't built a flat top guitar yet ( actually they're domed ) but I have completed 5 carved top & back instruments, and 2 on the go.
I make toothing irons by grinding 5-6 grooves on the bevel , this gives me 6-7 teeth. Perfect in a double round bottom plane for carving.

[homesy135]

I don't know enough about physics and materials sciences to adequately address your point, Paul. But I'll give it a try.........remembering this is just me trying to make sense of my world based on my education, experience and observations.

I remember the ruler and paper trick, where a sheet of paper is placed over one half of a ruler on a table and the other half juts out from the table. Striking the unsupported end of the ruler breaks the ruler as the air pressure on the paper holds the ruler down. Without striking the ruler it is free to move, sideways, back and forth and likewise a gentle breath will blow away the paper. It is only when striking the ruler suddenly lifts the paper creating a vacuum that the force of the air above comes into play. Before that there is just as much air pressure under the paper as there is pressing down on it.

If the veneer acts the same as the paper, it is only when a vacuum is created under the veneer that it is pressed onto the substrate. Perhaps keying the substrate creates a void that is then temporarily filled with a bit of air and glue. A wet, limp sheet of veneer is placed on the substrate. Hammering expels some of the air and glue and replaces the void with a bit of flexed veneer. As the hammer moves past the flexed veneer it wants to spring back but it is held fast by the air pressure above it.

What do you think?

Of course, vacuum in these examples are really areas of less pressure. And yes, there is much less wiggle if the substrate is keyed.

[Woodwould]

I don't know enough about physics and materials sciences to adequately address your point, Paul. But I'll give it a try.........remembering this is just me trying to make sense of my world based on my education, experience and observations.

I remember the ruler and paper trick, where a sheet of paper is placed over one half of a ruler on a table and the other half juts out from the table. Striking the unsupported end of the ruler breaks the ruler as the air pressure on the paper holds the ruler down. Without striking the ruler it is free to move, sideways, back and forth and likewise a gentle breath will blow away the paper. It is only when striking the ruler suddenly lifts the paper creating a vacuum that the force of the air above comes into play. Before that there is just as much air pressure under the paper as there is pressing down on it.

If the veneer acts the same as the paper, it is only when a vacuum is created under the veneer that it is pressed onto the substrate. Perhaps keying the substrate creates a void that is then temporarily filled with a bit of air and glue. A wet, limp sheet of veneer is placed on the substrate. Hammering expels some of the air and glue and replaces the void with a bit of flexed veneer. As the hammer moves past the flexed veneer it wants to spring back but it is held fast by the air pressure above it.

What do you think?

Of course, vacuum in these examples are really areas of less pressure. And yes, there is much less wiggle if the substrate is keyed.

That's exactly what happens... but only if the pores in the veneer are clogged with sufficiently thick glue to prevent air being sucked in through the pores, thus allowing the veneer to spring up.

Amateurs often experience difficulty hammering veneer until they grasp the required glue consistency and the amount of free water used during the process. If the glue is too thin (or becomes overly thinned), then the veneer will likely be starved of glue, not take, and possibly spring up. Conversely, if the glue is too thick, then it will not be easily expelled by the hammer, resulting in areas that will shrink long after the surface has been scraped, sanded and finished.

[mic-d]

The way hammer veneering works is much the same as the way a wet shower curtain sticks to a wall. The voids are filled with fluid which has a lower vapour pressure than air, so you have virtually no pressure within the interface and 1atm pressure forcing down.

[Chris Parks]

I can't comment on veneering techniques but by coincidence I watched this yesterday

Video: Apply Decorative Wood Veneers On Furniture & Cabinets (http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/)

[pmcgee]

That is a great video Chris! Thank you very much.

I'm hot for that guy's workshop :)

and ... dammit ... I wasn't "needing" to have a veneer saw before I saw that :)

Don't you just love it when someone's done something so often it's just "oh .. cut here and .. about here and .. oh look - fits perfectly"
:~ :)

Damn you experience!

Cheers,
Paul

[homesy135]

I've bookmarked Chris's video for later viewing.

This is the video I found inspiring:

Inlaying and veneering - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Yb5_RfP3o)


The poster has uploaded a couple more "no nonsense" videos on hammer veneering and making drawers that I found interesting. Worth a look (but not a toothing plane in sight).

[homesy135]

Okay, just watched Chris's video. Very nice and a nice saw, too. I'm left handed and use (struggle with) one of those more common veneer saws with the swan neck handle and squarish blade. Paul, let me me know when you're ready to buy a French Veneer Saw and we'll share postage.

I was also chuffed to hear Patrick Edwards explain about the veneer being held by a vacuum. As Derek and Clive say, "Now I've had it confirmed!"

I do like using an iron to make the veneer limp and warm. My veneer is rarely flat.


Today is going to be a good day.....................

[pmcgee]

WWing advice from Derek and Clive ... Blimey!

Here's an excerpt re Christopher Gabriel - London planemaker - from
Eighteenth-Century Woodworking Tools: Papers Presented at a Tool Symposium May 1994
Eighteenth-Century Woodworking Tools: Papers Presented at a Tool Symposium ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=j-_w-pimp1AC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Toothing irons were in healthy demand ...

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