traditional Japanese handsaws?

[journeyman Mick]

Got a question, don't know if anyone has an answer (Derek?). I've got a couple of Japanese pullsaws (yes I do use non-powered tools sometimes, but only if nothing else will do the job ;) ) All the Japanese pullsaws have induction hardened blades ( like most of the new european type saws do now) I'm presuming that this is a relatively new development, although I remember using a little sandvik saw about 25 years ago with hardened teeth. As Japanese pullsaws are not a recent development what did they make the blades out of before induction hardening? Did they have a thicker blade and kerf or were they as thin but hardened by some other process?

Mick

[Dan]

The main reference book about Japanese tools seems to be the one by Toshio Odate. In this book he mentions that traditional Japanese pull saws were made of very thin, brittle steel (just like they are now). He then goes on to say that with the introduction of plywood, Masonite and plastic laminate in construction that the traditional saws were found to be not up to the job, so the modern changable blades were developed and became very popular.

It seems that the older saws were still very thin and hard (no thickness comparison is made to modern blades), but they could be resharpened, although a fair bit of skill was required. The modern disposables are harder so they stay sharp longer but I'm not sure if they are any thinner.

[derekcohen]

Mick

I also have Toshio Odate's book, and I'm sure that Dan's info is an accurate description.

However, there is something I might add. While the Japanese saws that you have, and those that are generally sold in woodworking stores, have induction hardened blades - which are not re-sharpenable - one is also able to purchase non-induction hardened blades, ones that are re-sharpenable (what must be said about these saws is that they have to be sent back to Japan to be sharpened. Sharpening Japanese saws is only for the expert since the teeth are tiny and shaped differently to Western saw teeth). In other words, the blades that you are referring to are relatively recent inventions. The time-honoured blades were hand formed and hand sharpened.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[journeyman Mick]

Thanks, Dan and Derek.

Mick

[soatoz]

Hi,

Sorry to post so late.

Japanese traditional saw plate is shaved with a tool called sen, and fixed their flatness after being hardened with a small hammer on the anvil. There are only a couple who are capable of making saws in this manner now in Japan.

Saw making requires more effort compared to plane blade and chisel making, so these genuine ones cost more than at least $500. Anything less than this, the steel plate hasn't been forged but only machine pressed, which means the molecules are larger and uneven. Not many people seem to know this even in Japan.

But the machine pressed ones can still be considered traditional, and they are far surperior in cutting/controlling performance compared to the replaceable blade saws. But the hassle of the need to sharpen once in a while is driving them to oblivion, which is a pity.

Traditional saws are thinner (much thinner from my point of view) than the rep blade saws, and easier to control. The better ones are shaved slightly concaved, so it has less friction. Rep blades are simply flat plates. So the difference is apprent once you use it. Also the pull is lighter and dryer with the trad saws, and slightly stickier and heavier with the rep blades. When precision matters, I always use traditional saws.

Anyway, roughly categorizing there are three kinds.

1. Replaceable blades (sharpenable and non-shapenable, although I sharpen both, so called non-sharpenable ones can still be sharpened if you use diamond files, which I sometimes do with the rip cuts becuase they are easy to sharpen)

2. Traditional non forged saws (the ones listed on my website are all from this category)

3. Traditional forged saws (these are too expensive so I don't bother to list, but only recommend when people has got a couple of expensive tools from me and knows thru experience that there's always a good reason for higher price.)

Thanks

[Groggy]

Good to see you return to posting So! Replying to posts from 2005 may keep you busy though!:wink:

[JDarvall]

The only thing that gives me the shyts about jap saws, is the teeth are more brittle. If they graze other tools or whatever you may loose a tooth. And once you loose a tooth there a bloody pain in the ???? to use. So I always keep it shethed. And don't let anybody else use it.

And the other thing is they tend to wonder the more thicker and harder the timber is over western saws, if you don't hold you tongue right.

But other than that there tops I reakon. Especially for small straight cuts.

[cliff.king]

Soataz, I recently purchased two second hand pull saws (refer post "second hand Japanese tools below). I was attracted to them as tools that had obviously been well used by a builder or carpenter. Both are very sharp and blades are not replaceable. One has clear hammer marks on the blade near the teeth roots, I suppose as a consequence of the sharpener setting the teeth. I'd appreciate any comments. this saw (the larger conventional crosscut toothed one) has manufacturer markings near the handle, but they are not very distinct.
I was drawn to these and other used Japanese tools by my appreciation of something well used and valued by their previous owner(s).
Cliff

[cliff.king]

soatoz, sorry, misspelt your name.Cliff

[soatoz]

Soataz, I recently purchased two second hand pull saws (refer post "second hand Japanese tools below). I was attracted to them as tools that had obviously been well used by a builder or carpenter. Both are very sharp and blades are not replaceable. One has clear hammer marks on the blade near the teeth roots, I suppose as a consequence of the sharpener setting the teeth. I'd appreciate any comments. this saw (the larger conventional crosscut toothed one) has manufacturer markings near the handle, but they are not very distinct.
I was drawn to these and other used Japanese tools by my appreciation of something well used and valued by their previous owner(s).
Cliff

Hi,

I can't see the details so I can't really comment on them, but overall they look nice.

Are you planning on using them? If that's the case, I'm pretty sure none of them will perform properly as they are. With the saws, the plate needs to be corrected and the teeth sharpened. You need to send them to Japan to have them repaired. Saw sharepning is the only thing I would never do. But depending on the steel quality, it might not be worth the returning shipping and the metate fee which isn't too cheap if you send it to a decent metate-shi. So to be honest getting new one might be more cost effective and will perform better.... Sorry to be a bit negative about this....

The planes and the knives, if you are going to use them, again I'm pretty sure they'll need serious repairing. If you know how then that's fine, I'm sure it's part of the joy! I love reparing old tools myself:). But if not you can send me the detailed photos and I can tell you which ones are worth restoring, and I can restore it for you for a bit of fee. If you've got them from Edo craft you must live close from me.

Thanks

[cliff.king]

thanks for your comments soatoz. I agree re the planes etc. I tend to buy old tools betond their useable life and try to breath new life into them, ending up in most cases with the tool equivalent of a zombie i.e., neither alive or dead. The saws however, are a different matter. They are both very sharp and, from the gleam of the metal in the tooth gullet, not long been sharpened. I wonder therefore how hard they are? I have a traditional Japanese saw with replaceable blade which is unequalled for cutting dovetails. These monsters are really only good for cutting large timbers with a two handed action.
I must try them out and report. But, could they be forged, or are such also made out of available spring steel?
Cliff

[soatoz]

I must try them out and report. But, could they be forged, or are such also made out of available spring steel?
Cliff

IF they were forged, they would be very soft and brittle, basically useless (good as a collection tho, will sell for a lot, of course if it was in Japan that is), because that would mean they are either seriously old (Edo period) or not as old but was made by country side blacksmith (lacks knowledge to properly treat steel, and also unable to obtain high quality steel). Either way since there were no high quality steel and no metallurgy to back up the blacksmiths back then, saws were soft and brittle, only good enough to cut J softwoods.

It is after western steel started to come in, such as Togou steel from UK, around Meiji period, when J saw quality drastically improved. And those were machine pressed to the apx thinness of the saw, which means no forging was involved, so they became extremely affordable with much better in quality than the older forged ones.

Yours are pro~~~bably from Miki, and not as old as they look, and maybe not as used (from the depth of the saw, it doesn't look too used). My wild guess would be from mid Showa (around 1960) to late Showa (1989).

Thanks