Hand Powered Drills

[Russell Cook]

Hi everyone,

Can anyone offer me some advice on hand-powered drills? For example, what brands or models are reliable? I had a look on amazon.co.uk and they have a few, but the one made by Stanley got a very bad review claiming it jams all the time. This left me a little reluctant to dive in and buy so any advice would be great!

Russell

[Vann]

I'd suggest you look at second hand drills.

Look for a drill with two pinions (the upper one is just an idler, but it makes for a better drill). Millers Falls (USA) are popular, as are most hand drills with spoked wheels. But probably your best bet is a humble Stanley (UK) No.803. These seem to run smoothly and you can still get chucks and jaws from Stanley. Which reminds me, ask the seller if the chuck works or if the jaws are equally spaced as they open (this indicates all three chuck springs are present and working equally).

HTH

Cheers, Vann.

[pmcgee]

I had to search to know what it was, so ... Stanley Hand Drill no. 803 (http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/copy_of_copy_of_Stanley_Hand_Drill_no._803.html)

It looks nice and solid - I can imagine holding it. Old Miller Falls and others are pretty as well as solid :)

Don't get anything wobbly :)

Cheers,
Paul

http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/misc1271.l.jpg

[Vann]

The Stanley 803s are what we had in woodwork class at school, and also at the apprentice training school when I started work IIRC


Don't get anything wobbly :) Hence the idler pinion. The Stanley 805 looks very similar, but only has a single pinion. It's rubbish in comparison (in my o-pinion :doh:).

Some early eggbeaters (e.g. Millers Falls) had a clip, or even a little wheel, on the outside of the main cog that does the same job.

Cheers, Vann.

[Russell Cook]

Cheers for the replies.

There are a few Stanley 803s available on EBay, should be able to get hold of one.

What size drill bits can the 803 be used with?

[Handyjack]

Without seeing the actual drill or chuck, I would say nothing bigger than 1/4".

[Vann]

What size drill bits can the 803 be used with?The chuck is nominally 5/16" but I can get a 8.5mm bit into my 803.

The Stanley #803 is based on the earlier JA Chapman #105 drill. Stanley bought out JA Chapman in 1936 and this became Stanley UKs manufacturing base. Some early Stanley #803s have the Chapman chuck which is nominally 1/4" and the largest bit I can fit is 6.5mm (my drills are in 0.5mm increments). The drill shown in Paul's post has the earlier Chapman 1/4" chuck.

Cheers, Vann.

[orraloon]

I had a stanley drill about 40 years ago. Cant remember what number it was but I was happy the day I could afford a power drill. The stanley had a tendency to stick due to play in the moving parts. Drilled a hole but difficult.
I am keen on hand tools but after those early experiences I use a power drill. There are perhaps better ones than stanley out there.
The brace now is another story and I still use one for larger holes and also to drive large screws.
Regards
John

[Rod Gilbert]

I have an #803 Stanley from my apprentice day's when the kid's were young and asked to borrow a cordless drill I would hand them the 803 they would look at it and walk away:o, back then (when an apprentice) it was what you had. I can't remember the brand but there was a drill that was a triangular shaped body and the handle was across the top like a wedge of cake with a chuck and the crank handle was flush with the body, at the time I was told that it was a better drill than the Stanley.
Regards Rod.

[Vann]

I had a stanley drill about 40 years ago. Cant remember what number it was but I was happy the day I could afford a power drill. The stanley had a tendency to stick due to play in the moving parts.I bet it only had a single pinion gear :doh:. I must admit to being a power/battery drill man myself until recently. I still grab the battery drill if I need three hands (not being Taswegian - refer other thread :D). But I'm using the eggbeaters more and more. Once the gear teeth have been purged of years of gunk, and a bit of oil applied, the two pinion models seem to run smoothly.


I can't remember the brand but there was a drill that was a triangular shaped body and the handle was across the top like a wedge of cake with a chuck and the crank handle was flush with the body...Rod, was that a Leytool brand?

Cheers, Vann.

[Christos]

I originally picked up a second hand Stanley and found that I was using this more as it was just quicker then getting the power drill out. The only drawback was with the size of bit it took. So I looked for another second hand one that would take a larger drill bit shaft, sorry not sure on the brand.

On both occausion I went for a second hand one with two pinions and picked up at a tool sale. So I was able to play with it to gage what it was like when drilling.

[pmcgee]

:) The Leytool ...

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/unlikely-hand-tool-usage-149181/?highlight=leytool
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/leytool-hand-drill-new-respect-149313/?highlight=leytool

[pmcgee]

There is a pretty simple Falcon Pope hand-drill available online atm.

[snafuspyramid]

If I may wade in and complicate things unnecessarily again...

I assume you've been looking at "eggbeater" style drills. Like this.

239823

[Note - Image taken from Woodworking Projects, Plans, Techniques, Tools & Supplies | Popular Woodworking Magazine (http://www.popularwoodworking.com). Unfortunately I don't own this guy.]

Might I suggest that, instead, you buy a single brace, and leave it at that? I mean one of these:

239824

These two specimens are a Millers Falls (on the right) and an early Atkins. I'm not sure what postage would cost you from the United States, but you should at least investigate the cost of shipping a vintage Millers Falls brace from an eBay seller or similar. Millers Falls made an enormous number of these tools, and they are almost without exception of fantastic quality (and being common, are rather cheap).

As usual, I can only really recommend a vintage tool for this purpose. I don't know of any manufacturer that produces a brace worth a damn - I was recently using a new Stanley brace to drill fence posts, and the shaft exploded through the top handle and impaled my chest. Surprise! The expression on my face must have been quite something; my old man nearly died laughing. It hurt a lot. Stupid Stanley junk.

Why buy a brace instead of an eggbeater? Well, because a brace with a moderate sweep can do the job of an eggbeater drill, whereas the opposite is not the case.

Sure, it takes a bit longer to drill small holes than when using an eggbeater drill, but only a little. If you're going to be building traditional furniture with traditional tools (and guessing by your preference for a hand-cranked grinder, I'm suspecting you might be) then you won't be using screws very often, and thus won't need to drill for them. I think that it's sometimes necessary to pre-drill for large cut nails, but I don't know much about that. In any case, you will be drilling larger holes with a brace quite often - for wasting mortices, for example, or for drawbored or dowel joints.

If you are lucky enough to find a vintage brace "in the wild", then you should check that the top pad spins relatively easily, and that it does not wobble too much. If it wobbles too much, the bearings are worn out, and I don't know any way to repair them (of course, another forumite probably will know - they always do). The other handle should also spin without much force. Both should be made of wood. Don't buy plastic. Also, these tools are rather difficult to de-rust because much of the mechanism is not readily accessible, and because of their awkward shape. So finding a specimen with minimal rust is important.

On the subject of drilling, you'll need a few auger bits, some brad-point bits and a special auger bit file to sharpen them. None of these items are terribly expensive, and sharpening is very simple. But more on that another day.

P.S. I don't actually woodwork, really, I just collect rusty objects and then stare at them lovingly. Accordingly, and at the risk of diverting this thread a little, I'd be delighted to see pics of any other forum member's braces and bits, if they use them...

[pmcgee]

P.S. I don't actually woodwork, really, I just collect rusty objects and then stare at them lovingly. Accordingly, and at the risk of diverting this thread a little, I'd be delighted to see pics of any other forum member's braces and bits, if they use them...


Geoff ! Steady, Geoff ! Down, boy, down!

:D

(Dat's dis fella ...)

239839 239840

[ch!ppy]

G'day Eddie,



i'd disagree with that
Why buy a brace instead of an eggbeater? Well, because a brace with a moderate sweep can do the job of an eggbeater drill, whereas the opposite is not the case.


a moderate brace (moderate might generally be considered 10'' i think) cant do the job with smaller bits that well, you'll end up breaking them with the torque (assuming they can even hold very small bits, many wont) and because its easy to put pressure where you dont want it with a relatively large cumbersome brace compared to the small drill bits.

egg beaters are great for intricate accurate work and smaller drill bits, braces are great for a wide variety of work but its nice to have different sizes for different work, for many it would be a luxury and un warranted but for example i have braces from about 3 inch to 14 or so (i think thats what it is i'l have to out and check the measurement) the smallest which is a great little thing and can cope with many small bits from drill bits to screwdriver etc, the egg beaters still do a tad better imo though for small drill bits, i use brace sizes up to 14 inch as well, 10 to 14 inch are great for all sorts of work, not least of which is framing or heavy work...8''-10'' great al rounders for a wide variety of drill bits and work, screwdriver bits, socket drivers and more but there is no substitute for the right tool suited to the job...in many cases i would think most people would get by with an eggbeater and a 10 inch brace


cheers
chippy

[snafuspyramid]

Chips I agree with everything you've said, although I do think that it's difficult to bend or break a modern HSS bit without a good deal of effort.

I think it comes down to the old argument about tool specialization. For the majority of tasks, the wood doesn't care whether you use a single well-tuned Stanley jack plane with a few spare irons or the entire Lie Nielsen bench plane catalogue. However, you will. The difference lies in the amount of time, skill and frustration you can commit.

An eggbeater is better for drilling small holes, being specialized for that task. But for a first purchase, and assuming that the desire is to spend as little as possible initially, a brace seems a more logical choice for the reasons given.

Of course ideally you'd have an entire stable of different braces, bits, and drills. And I've no doubt that after a few years, almost against your will, you will end up with just that...

[ch!ppy]

''. . . although I do think that it's difficult to bend or break a modern HSS bit without a good deal of effort.''

Oh Eddie, how i wish that were true, ive had many an apprentice that have no trouble at all breaking them, repeatedly ! i reckon their have been some days where its cost me hundreds of dollars just in busted drill bits, the little ones are broken with such regularity if it wasnt for the money it cost me i'd hardly notice it (thats more often with them using small power drills though a brace can do it easier)..long auger bits or masonry bits occasionally get bent but snapping the small HSS bits is common...i hate hearing it! snap! = cha ching, cha ching


what does an egg beater cost nowadays, a good second hand one probably about $30 i'm guessing, something like that for a brace as well i suppose, maybe $60+ for a top model brace i'm guessing, its worth 30- 50 bucks to have a tool better suited for smaller drill bits, false economy to use a 10 inch brace for small holes i reckon :wink:


cheers
chippy

[Sparhawk]

I picked up an hand drill on the weekend for $2 at the local flea market. Sure it's not a Stanley, but with a bit of a clean and oil, it runs fine (2 pinons even).

[ch!ppy]

I picked up an hand drill on the weekend for $2 at the local flea market. Sure it's not a Stanley, but with a bit of a clean and oil, it runs fine (2 pinons even).


yeah, i figured there would be some bargains around but didnt want to propose people should expect to get them for nix (takes away the pleasant surprise when you do manage a bargain), not that i am familiar will all the different makes and models, only the ones i have really or if i recognise one that looks similar, one i have but dont particularly use looks like the first pic (i'll have to check what it is), i have a Yankee i think it is, its quite good and also and old miller falls, its always been good, just one gear but has a little wheel to keep the main cog in place, as i say its always been reliable. i prettied it up some time back, prob should have left it but it was looking pretty horrible...the reason i mentioned $30 was the other day i was at the market getting some veggies and coincidentally i saw one just like mine (old MF) for sale, all the paint was gone but otherwise in good condition, i thought huh, how about that, same as mine, i considered buying it for a milli second (to fix up like i did mine) but then thought why do i need another, duh


cheers
chippy

[Dovetail]

I picked up a very nice Stanley 803 for $12.99 last week. Just wondering if there is an easy way to find the date of manufacture?

[snafuspyramid]

I agree that vintage hand drills can often be had for cheap - because they were once exceedingly common. The only issue is that I'm not sure of what's available to OP in China.

However (to Russell) if you do decide to go looking for a vintage eggbeater rather than a brace, try and find a model with two pinions, closely mated gears and handles that don't wobble. Commonly the rivet that attaches the small handle has become loose, which is tricky to repair.

[ch!ppy]

hand drills are useful in the workshop of course and around the home too, but they were still a genuine workhorse in cottage work, first or second fix up until about the early to mid eighties for us and then out of habit through to the 90's, the preferred tool to a power drill in many instances (still is of course) for me because you didnt have to drag around a cord or perhaps have jenny running, she makes too much noise! cordless drill tech was in its early days and they had some drawbacks, low voltage and power, a charge didnt last overly long and once the drill had done some hours, been recharged a number of times and the batteries didnt want to take a charge at all anymore they were basically designed as a throw away item , just too much mucking around for my tastes back then, not to mention wasteful, i hated throwing away a drill just because the batteries were worn out, use to make me think would you throw away you vehicle if the petrol ran out ..cordless drills now are very cable and versatile, not to mention one handed use but they still annoy me how they keep changing the power/battery specs ever few years so you need to upgrade and ditch your old drill, although its easier and cheaper to get your old battery pack refurbished with replacement cells nowadays


cheers
chippy

[swk]

and a few braces I've collected over the years (including one which was my grandfathers). So didn't think I would need any more.
Was in an antique shop and picked up this one to have a look at. A "Fleetway Clipper". It only had a single pinion but that pinion had two sets of teeth. Puzzled me for a while as my first thought was that the pinion may have been a common one for multiple models of drills. And then I realised. There is a little release button which allows you to shift the drive/handle/cog to a different position. It's a two speed hand drill.

So I bought it :-)

239941239942

Pictures show the condition straight out of the shop. The shop owner charged $20, which isn't the $2 bargain others have got, but it didn't break the bank :)

Regards
SWK

[ch!ppy]

nice swk, some of these drills have quirky unique design eh!, like they were always trying to build a better mouse trap

I got some similar to them too, they are what i call breast drills, but you can lean on em with your knee or what ever, their different to hand drills; hand drills are lighter duty (accurate use wood and thin steel etc) and the breast drills more heavy duty use, some are built like tanks and geared much more compared to that one you have..ive seen people throwing away the larger type breast drills (they can be beasts and merely looking at them makes you think you have serious work ahead to do)..i guess they arnt that popular with the revival hand tool crowd that make nice items or furniture in small workshops and most people doing large work or projects will often opt for power drills


cheers
chippy

[derekcohen]

These are the three hand drills I've had for a number of years (must get around to renovating them nicely .. but they work well as is) ..

A small Yankee North 1530A (had different speeds), and larger Millers Falls #2 and #5 ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Drills/Eggbeaters.jpg

They are all useful for small, delicate work, such as hinges. Being able to turn by hand means that the bit can be drilled deeper a fraction at a time.

I use braces far more frequently. The sizes most used are an 8" throw (for screws) and 10" (for medium wide augers). When I bored the round dog holes in my bench top (3 1/2" European Oak), I used a 12". The torque produced by this leaves a power drill for dust.

One of the most handy tools is a brace set up with a countersink.

North 2101 ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Drills/YankeesandRJaugers1.jpg

I love these things. I've even made two of my own.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ch!ppy]

amazing coincidence Derek, those are the same models i use! i have larger 2101 braces as well thou for the odd occasion i need the extra oomph and a different (brand) smaller tiny one that i like for driving delicate screws and such, also a chrome miller falls brace with red plastic thats very capable

[derekcohen]

Hi Chippy

Great minds ... :)


.. also a chrome miller falls brace with red plastic thats very capable

You wouldn't have this one would you?! If so, I HATE you!! :U

http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/braceimg/Buck.jpg

That's the Miller Falls "Buck Rogers" model. Highly sort after - I'm not a collector of the BR tools, but they really are such fun.

As it happens, I also have a Miller's Falls brace. A 12" Rose Brace that dates to 1867. I think it is just beautiful ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/IDeclareThisBenchFinished_html_m3e3f75d4.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Drills/MFbrace.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ch!ppy]

no its not that one, mine has clear red plastic, that one looks solid red, it dark out at the moment so i cant check it, i'll have a look tomorrow, its on the tip of my tongue but i just cant remember whats its model is called, has some sort of french sounding name to it i think (even though i'm sure its a miller falls), but i might be wrong....



cheers
chippy

[derekcohen]

Perhaps this one?

http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/braceimg/Parsons.jpg

Link: Millers Falls Bit Braces: Barber, Amidon, Parsons, etc. (http://oldtoolheaven.com/brace/FeaturedBraces.htm)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ch!ppy]

thats the one! the top one....not sort after like the buck rogers no doubt but it works marvellously, its never skipped a beat (must be some story behind buck rogers tools :U i'd not heard of them before, heard of the cartoon!) ,

very elegant looking brace that A-12! lovely!




cheers
chippy

[derekcohen]

Well you've got a good ... no, great .. brace there. The commentary on it goes ..

In 1938, the Millers Falls Company introduced one of the finest braces ever mass produced. The brace, shown at top left, was designed by William J. Parsons, the “dean” of the design and engineering staff, to celebrate his fiftieth anniversary with the company. The Model 5010 Parsons De Luxe Brace features a full ball bearing chuck with Leland’s universal jaws.

The ratchet is fully boxed; the handle floats on oilite bronze bearings. The head also runs on an oilite bearing but features a full thrust bearing as well. The transparent red plastic (permaloid) heads and handles used on these braces have been extremely durable. The plastic on most examples looks much as it did some seventy-five years ago.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ch!ppy]

their right about the red plastic, its like new still...it matches closely to my old turner planes, they look good together :U

[Vann]

their right about the red plastic... ...it matches closely to my old turner planes, they look good together :UFunny that. I was just looking at that site a couple of weeks ago and thought of Turner plane handles when I saw those 'permaloid' handles.

I'd just bought a 10" box ratchet brace (another brace :roll: - I blame Boringgeoff for this affliction) and thought it was probably a Millers Falls (but not with permaloid handles). But when it arrived the only markings were VALD'OR - MARQUE DEPOSEE. I guess it's French though a google search only came up with a town/city in Canada.

Cheers, Vann.

[jimbur]

I use a couple, one especially is for lighter work. It's (was) made in the UK and the main drive and body is cast alloy. The name rubbed off decades ago. I got it new about 45 years ago.
The other is a fairly old Stanley and that can take more strain.

[ch!ppy]

Vann, they do look exactly the same in the flesh , whether its the same recipe, i dont know :shrug: one might assume so though


managed to get a pic onto my poota



cheers
chippy

[Berlin]

Funny that. I was just looking at that site a couple of weeks ago and thought of Turner plane handles when I saw those 'permaloid' handles.

I'd just bought a 10" box ratchet brace (another brace :roll: - I blame Boringgeoff for this affliction) and thought it was probably a Millers Falls (but not with permaloid handles). But when it arrived the only markings were VALD'OR - MARQUE DEPOSEE. I guess it's French though a google search only came up with a town/city in Canada.

Cheers, Vann.

Hi Vann,

Yours is made (was) made in France. I found a Val d'Or egg beater just now on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.fr/BOZ-OUTIL-RARE-Chignole-VALdOR-1vitesse-315x120x90-19-/200845729795?pt=FR_JG_Art_Objets_XXeme&hash=item2ec356a003#ht_500wt_1267). I haven't been able to find anything about the company either :shrug:

They still make braces here. I saw them in the hardware store, I can't remember the brand but did note they were made in France.

Cheers

[Vann]

They still make braces here. I saw them in the hardware store, I can't remember the brand but did note they were made in France.There was a recent comment on a UK forum I follow, about braces still being made in France - from a guy who's both a member and a retailer...



http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Ultimate_Hand_Brace.jpg (http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Hand_Drills_and_Bits.html)

Our braces are made in France by the company that used to make them for Stanley until production headed east.

And this that I also found of interest...


The expensive part of a brace and bit (the bits) can often be picked up on ebay or at bootfairs so it's cheap to build up most of a set of very good quality ones. Ridgeway are a good brand to look out for, the men, skillbase and machines from Ridgeway are now the drill department of Clico who still begin with a forged bar and then twist it into shape. This results in a much stronger helix than just grinding it out of a round bar, which is why the waterways, railways and armed forces depend on them. So if you need a particular size, they are still made in Sheffield to the same quality standards as ever.

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/417035_488877451156830_425844923_n.jpg


Thanks for the link to the Val d'or eggbeater.

Cheers, Vann.

[derekcohen]

Vann, they do look exactly the same in the flesh , whether its the same recipe, i dont know :shrug: one might assume so though


managed to get a pic onto my poota



cheers
chippy

Hi Chippy

They are striking. Your photos are excellent - the transparency and the colour of the plastic is so vibrant.

What brace sizes do you have and use?

The torque from a brace has to be experienced to be believed. Those who have not used one to bore a large hole through hardwood will be amazed. I was reminded of this when I thought I could take a shortcut when boring 3/4" holes in my bench. The power drill would kick and nearly broke my wrist. A 12" brace sailed through.

At the other end of the spectrum I like a short throw for screw holes and as a driver. The ability to make a 1/4 turn - or less - offers a greater degree of accuracy when needed than a depth stop in a battery drill. I keep a couple of braces with countersinks at hand - 8" is good - and turn to one with a 5" throw for screw holes, such as for hinges in boxes.

The rarity of the small braces was the inspiration behind building a small brace for the 2008 Wood Central (USA) tool competition ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Competition%20brace%20for%20Wood%20Central%202008_html_6194fb28.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Competition%20brace%20for%20Wood%20Central%202008_html_m54af92d7.jpg

I gave this one away as a gift. So in 2009 I built another for the Australian Wood Review Tool Competition (which I kept, and use) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/EntryforAustralianWoodReview2009_html_m5b4ef059.jpg

Anyone who fancies building one, there is a tutorial here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/EntryforAustralianWoodReview2009.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm Eaton]

The best hand drill I have ever used and which never missed a beat was a hand drill that my father had in his tool kit. The hand drill was well pre 2nd world war and the main feature was the gears were what is called " spiral bevel gears". You were able to drill holes in timber up to at least 3/8 inch diam. The manufacture I am not sure but it was American.
I myself owned a hand drill with similar gearing which was of German manufacture ( Henry Boker) post war this unit was not quite to the performance of the American unit. The main point I had found over the years was that hand drills that had spiral bevel gears out performed any of the hand drills with conventional gearing.
Cheers .
Malcolm Eaton

[Boringgeoff]

What a great subject. I've been away so was unable to participate in this discussion. The only comments I'd make are: Paul, stop plastering my ugly mug on this forum and Derek, keep your beautiful MF Rose under lock and key.
Four of us from the HTPS WA will be exhibiting hand tools at the Avondale Harvest Festival at Beverley this coming Sunday. This is a good day out with working Clydsdales drawing old harvesting machinery, blacksmithing demo etc. So if you've got nothing better planned, come out and say g'day.
Regards,
Geoff.

[Russell Cook]

Hi guys,

Great thread, cheers.

I have got hold of a Stanley 803, quite well used and the handle is a little wobbly.

Regarding braces, what do you think of these two from Lee Valley? Seem a little pricy, but I've successfully had them deliver to me before.

Hand Braces and Accessories - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32300&cat=1,180,42337)

[snafuspyramid]

I would not spend that much money on a brace, personally.

I don't find those braces aesthetically pleasing, but i admit that that isn't terribly important.

Functionally, however, those braces will work as well as, or better than, any vintage brace.

You want the two-jaw model.