Dividing plate for 127 divisions

[Ueee]

Hi All,
Some time ago Michael G offered to drill a dividing plate with 127 holes for those of us with RT's and basic dividing heads. I have had the 127 hole "steering wheel" for a few months now, but i finally got around to boring and mounting it, and making a new arm to hold the spring loaded detent pin. I used the pin from the purchased dividing set, which is held in with a grubscrew and a "light" interference fit. I just have to make a sector arm so that i can easily move the 90 holes required for each indexable point.

[Michael G]

Looks good so far.
If you made up a link out of say 1mm steel with a hole in each end that was (127-90=37) holes (chord length) apart, you could swing it around in the opposite direction to the crank rotation to get the right spacing. Once you had indexed, the link could just hang on the plunger tip until needed again. For those with a 40:1 ratio I'd use a 40 hole spacing.

Michael

[Ueee]

I started on some gears this arvo. Over the last few days i have made up a mandrel for the gears and arbor for the gear cutters. I am using M1.5 for all the new gears, using 14dp to match the existing gear would mean the 127 and 120t gears would be too big to fit on the banjo.
I bought a small sheet of 12mm acetyl (Delrin) to cut the bigger gears from, cutout the blank with the jigsaw and took to boring and turning them. At 193.5mm in dia and 820rpm i was cutting at 1630f/m....The pic of the shavings all over the place says it all:D
My $5 8-9" mic came in handy too, with the use of a 1" gauge block it was the only way i could measure the dia accurately.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1153Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1155Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1154Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1157Large.jpg

[pipeclay]

Would of thought you blokes with all the measuring gear would of had the right size mic or vernier or even a pye tape.

[Ueee]

Would of thought you blokes with all the measuring gear would of had the right size mic or vernier or even a pye tape.

Not sure who the "blokes with all the measuring gear" are but i certainly wouldn't consider myself one. Not sure what that post was supposed to achieve, other than having a dig.....

[morrisman]

Hi Ewan

How come the faceplate is there ? how is the mandrel supported ?

[Ueee]

Hi Mike,
the faceplate is only there so the spindle nose is not bare (not that plastic is going to effect it, but the last thing you want is lots of chips in your thread to have to clean out), and it also adds a flywheel. The Mandrel is in an ER40 collet in the spindles taper. I will use the same mandrel to hold the blank to cut the teeth on the mill. I made the mandrel from an old holden? axle, it can hold up to 5 gears at once, it is 3/4" dia, the thread and nut is M16 fine (1.5mm) cut the hard way without my automagical stop.:(

[shedhappens]

Nice work as usual Ueee :2tsup:

I spoze that if a "bloke" actually owned a Pi Tape himself then he would know how sssspeeel it :o

[markpest]

Nice work as usual Ueee :2tsup:

I spoze that if a "bloke" actually owned a Pi Tape himself then he would know how sssspeeel it :o

I don't know what a Pi tape is - so thanks Pipeclay - another thing to find out about. The thing I like here Ueee is that it's all done on a 60+ year old Mars Great Scot - with accuracy. Well done!!:U

Mark

[markpest]

For those who don't know Diameter Tape, Precision Diameter Tape by Pi Tape Corporation, the original manufacturer of Pi Tape brand precision measuring tape, outside diameter, linear, Go/No-Go, inside diameter, O-rings, exteneded range tapes, Pipeline diameter measurement and (http://www.pitape.com/)
Mark

[Ueee]

I have started cutting gears...what a dull job! with the delrin it takes about 30 sec per tooth, i would hate to be doing steel. I ended up making a sector arm out of .6 gal. I was going to drill holes on it for the spacings as Michael suggested, but if i had done it that way i would not have been able to rotate for the next spacing without pulling the detent pin out. Cutting delrin on the mill is not fun.....there is snow everywhere, even with the vac in use.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1203Large.jpg

[Michael G]

I think the worst part about doing large steel gears is the noise as I find they ring like crazy. (The utter boredom is the next thing of course).
I like the sector - a neat solution.

Michael

[Stustoys]

Hi Ewan,
Looking good.

Shame about the snow.

Stuart

[Ueee]

I am now done cutting gears, so the 127 hole dividing plate is available for anyone wanting to cut there own metric/imperial transposing gears.

I have started working on new "holders" (i'm sure they have a proper name) for the gears on the banjo, i was worried about a key not being enough in the delrin so i went with 2 5mm dia pins with knurled nuts to hold the gears on the bearing. Now i just need to make similar holders for the driving gear and leadscrew gear. It will be interesting to see how well the smaller gears hold up and how quiet they will be.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1276Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1245Large.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/ueee84/IMAG1246Large.jpg

[Ueee]

Its only been 5 months.......
I stopped this project as i ran out of 50mm bar, and it was in making the banjo spindle that i crashed the Mars and that lead to the rebuild.....

Anyway, i picked up some bar earlier this week and it is all finished now, except of course working out what other gears i need.....

I made it all to be as tool-less as possible, i only need one size allan key (and myself:D) to adjust the banjo and the spindle for the middle gears. I also made the spindle so it was adjustable from the outside, a SHCS goes right through the spindle and into the t nut to clamp it in place.

The gears are much quieter than the cast ones, and changing them is much quicker than it was. I'm still tossing up between a simple QCGB and going to a separately powered feed shaft. Maybe i should make both just for the fun of it:rolleyes:

Cheers
Ew

[j.ashburn]

Hi Ewen,nice job you made of the gears and adaptors.
The Mars Great Scot here has ''serious dentition '' problems.Think its had too many Mars Bars:D.Both the 20 teeth on tumblers are stripped minus 3-4 the other 15 gone must have been a mighty stack.I have both the 20t on feed shaft and lead screw.Back gears are both missing a couple too.Must have been a hard chuck.The spindle drive hub has a tooth off too.looking at it is it a press fit on the end of the cone pulley?The quadrant is missing too and if its not too much bother a rough sketch please when you find time.Is planned to raise the head stock up 2 inches so will have to extend 1 arm of the quadrant any way.Could you also please list the complete gear set missing a few.
With the 20 teeth gears got a bar of cast meehanite here and was planning to knock up a foot length of 20 teeth.got a cutter here so not a problem can cut off a piece for you.
Only reason I wanted to re furb this machine is its planned for the old touring coach here and with the large saddle will be good for a multi purpose machine boring milling etc without being without a machining facility.If I don't use a lathe daily get withdrawl pains.
Some time in its life it has had a light blue hammertone finish yuk! got to go for a solid colour any idea of orig colour as the base colour is gone.
Back to the pins you made have you ever seen the Drummond way they anchor their gears ? Is a knurled shaft with a split in in it and expanded it just pushes into a hollow in the gear spindles.An easy idea to disconnect drive line.Spur gears have no end thrust just radial so they never get out of mesh.
From what I see these machines are pretty robust and am sure will take a 2 inch raise up.Only thing is the headstock cones was considering tapered rollers and larger bore in spindle but is a big job.Dont know but is the feel of old machines their past and what they have made makes you reflect when using them. Cheers John.

[Michael G]

John, I tried the parting off length of geared bar stock thing and found that I got annoying burrs on the sides of the teeth that then took some time to clean up. My suggestion would be to part the blanks to thickness and then thread them on a mandrel before cutting the teeth.

Ewan, please let us know how those plastic gears go (especially the small ones). I occasionally think about making up plastic change gears but I'm concerned about how durable they would be. It would be good to have some feedback.

Michael

[pipeclay]

Any particular reason why the gears were not chamfered prior to finish parting.

[j.ashburn]

John, I tried the parting off length of geared bar stock thing and found that I got annoying burrs on the sides of the teeth that then took some time to clean up. My suggestion would be to part the blanks to thickness and then thread them on a mandrel before cutting the teeth.

Ewan, please let us know how those plastic gears go (especially the small ones). I occasionally think about making up plastic change gears but I'm concerned about how durable they would be. It would be good to have some feedback.

MichaelHi Michael was going to gash all the length of root depth with a slitting saw to ease the pain on the gear cutter and was my idea too to bevel the lead in before parting was going to bandsaw then no worries with ''dags'' Cheers John.ps got 2 mills here so can set up either cutter.

[markpest]

Hi Ewen,nice job you made of the gears and adaptors.
The Mars Great Scot here has ''serious dentition '' problems.Think its had too many Mars Bars:D.Both the 20 teeth on tumblers are stripped minus 3-4 the other 15 gone must have been a mighty stack.I have both the 20t on feed shaft and lead screw.Back gears are both missing a couple too.Must have been a hard chuck.The spindle drive hub has a tooth off too.looking at it is it a press fit on the end of the cone pulley?The quadrant is missing too and if its not too much bother a rough sketch please when you find time.Is planned to raise the head stock up 2 inches so will have to extend 1 arm of the quadrant any way.Could you also please list the complete gear set missing a few.
With the 20 teeth gears got a bar of cast meehanite here and was planning to knock up a foot length of 20 teeth.got a cutter here so not a problem can cut off a piece for you.
Only reason I wanted to re furb this machine is its planned for the old touring coach here and with the large saddle will be good for a multi purpose machine boring milling etc without being without a machining facility.If I don't use a lathe daily get withdrawl pains.
Some time in its life it has had a light blue hammertone finish yuk! got to go for a solid colour any idea of orig colour as the base colour is gone.
Back to the pins you made have you ever seen the Drummond way they anchor their gears ? Is a knurled shaft with a split in in it and expanded it just pushes into a hollow in the gear spindles.An easy idea to disconnect drive line.Spur gears have no end thrust just radial so they never get out of mesh.
From what I see these machines are pretty robust and am sure will take a 2 inch raise up.Only thing is the headstock cones was considering tapered rollers and larger bore in spindle but is a big job.Dont know but is the feel of old machines their past and what they have made makes you reflect when using them. Cheers John.
Hi John,pics of Great Scot #249 quadrant/banjo for your reference . . . it's a substantial casting. Hope the pic helps with the colour - a close current available colour is Rust Guard 'Sky Gray'. My change wheels 30, 40, 45, 55, 60, 65, 120 Cheers, Mark.

[Ueee]

Hi John,
Looks like Mark sorted some pics out, i really can't tell you what gears the machine should have come with as mine has a metric leadscrew and some of the gears i have definitely where not originals. I am actually starting to think that my machine was converted to metric at some stage......i forgot to take a pic of why, but will do tomorrow, its not good......
If you need more dimensions on the banjo let me know, just having made the spindle for it i know the grooves are 10mm wide and the arms are 25mm thick.

Hi Michael,
I'm really interested in how they will last too, obviously the 30t will go well before the 120.....I may not be using them for feed though, i'm still thinking on that one.

Cheers
Ew

[j.ashburn]

Hi Mark,many thanks for the pics and help.Can fabricate that quadrant from the pics as have to make 1 leg longer if i raise up the centre height.Will check out that colour too although battle ship grey is not my favorite colour.Re the gears are there any duplicates of those numbers?If I go to the trouble of making gears will make extras as it is easy to cut more when you are tooled up.The other thing is I must check the leadscrew as got an idea it may be metric??? iis quite a fine tpi like 10 -12tpi will measure in daylight and check.are there any serial numbers so far havent seen any.Thankyou once again for your prompt reply and co operation.

Hi Ewan,firstly an apology mis spelt your name.Many thanks too for your help and hopefully another Mars gets up and running.The previous owners fed it too many Mars bars and were quite brutal.Abuse of tools really makes me wince.Saddle has a broken out tee bolt slot at the rear looks like was the top slide set over or a rear parting tool mounted broke it out.Thats fixable and some cast rods with some copper sheeting will build it up.not a bother but is an eye sore.''white ants'' caused by ill thinking people in striped aprons.Re skim it and improve its surface.Need some scraping skills like you blokes who did the course.i do like the idea with the tapered gib.

Will keep you posted on further updates better start to learn how to upload pics.Many thanks save the Mars bars for the kids:)
Cheers to all John.

[Ueee]

My Serial # is on the right hand end of the front flat way, 2 separate numbers if i remember right, but one may be from the ministry of munitions. My leadscrew is 3.5mm square thread, 3mm ACME on the cross (but the dial is graduated with 50 main divs, giving .12 of dia:doh:) and the compound is just a standard M10 thread . I know the leadscrew can't be original as it is made in 2 pieces which separated just today, like i said i need to take a pic.....
Some smartarse decided to swing something thicker than the gap one day so they cut 10mm off the end of the bed ways, other than that it is in overall ok condition, except for the huge amount of wear that was on the slides before i scraped it.
Cheers
Ew

[markpest]

Hi Mark,many thanks for the pics and help.Can fabricate that quadrant from the pics as have to make 1 leg longer if i raise up the centre height.Will check out that colour too although battle ship grey is not my favorite colour.Re the gears are there any duplicates of those numbers?If I go to the trouble of making gears will make extras as it is easy to cut more when you are tooled up.The other thing is I must check the leadscrew as got an idea it may be metric??? iis quite a fine tpi like 10 -12tpi will measure in daylight and check.are there any serial numbers so far havent seen any.Thankyou once again for your prompt reply and co operation.

Hi Ewan,firstly an apology mis spelt your name.Many thanks too for your help and hopefully another Mars gets up and running.The previous owners fed it too many Mars bars and were quite brutal.Abuse of tools really makes me wince.Saddle has a broken out tee bolt slot at the rear looks like was the top slide set over or a rear parting tool mounted broke it out.Thats fixable and some cast rods with some copper sheeting will build it up.not a bother but is an eye sore.''white ants'' caused by ill thinking people in striped aprons.Re skim it and improve its surface.Need some scraping skills like you blokes who did the course.i do like the idea with the tapered gib.

Will keep you posted on further updates better start to learn how to upload pics.Many thanks save the Mars bars for the kids:)
Cheers to all John.

G'day John, the duplicate gear is 30. Ueee suggested the serial number on the right hand end of the bed - correct, unless (like me) you've surface ground the bed, therefore another location for the serial number is on the tailstock above the eccentric lever lock (assuming your tailstock matches the bed). My leadscrew is 8tpi - I'd like to know how Ewan did metric! cheers, Mark

[j.ashburn]

John here,checked a few things out on the Mars G S today.

the lead screw is 8 tpi.
Found the serial numbers tailstock was sitting on it 355 matching t/s no too.
Hunting through the skungy l blue hammer tone [owner refurbished] paint on the tail stock found paint like an indian red to maroon colour down to bare metal is only primer so red the orig colour was.
Measured the spindle and found about .001 in the middle of shaft on gear end [l h end] and 0.0015 -0.002 on the large shaft [chuck end].Slight galling on both more so chuck end and white metal in cones has fared better with the boundary lubrication.has had grease nipples added so be back to drip oilers or oil cups prob the latter as i never forget my pre flight checks.
looks like 7/8 hollow spindle or abt 22mm end has been burred and needs to be re shaped.
As I did say earlier the use for this was to be a travelling companion in the old coach and the more i do look and clean it up its not a bad thing. I love old machines and think this 1 worthy of the effort.has been sneered at by a few i suppose because of it's 6x4 trailer blue hue and looks folorn.
1 thing didnt mention is the cover where the sliding 20 tooth gear goes is missing and the gear is loose out in the bits box that came with it. not sure on the connect up assuming [that word] the 120 tooth gear is for fine feed off the quadrant. the other assumption is that the 20 tooth slips in and out to engage. what's got me stumped is the long key way in the power feed shaft.
All help received gratefully. Cheers John.

[Ueee]

Long key in the feed shaft is for the gear that drives the worm that drives the feeds to key into. I always n eeded to double compound my gearing to get a decent slow feed, but the biggest ci gear I had was 70t. Using 30-120/35-127 I get .14mm per rev long feed, cross is much much slower. I have no guards at all, bearings are bronze in steel front and bronze in brass rear. Front had barely any bronze left. I had no gears to drive the feed shaft at all, had to buy some. Worse thing is mt in spindle has runnout, but nose is ok, I think my bore is only 20mm
Cheers,
Ew

[markpest]

John here,checked a few things out on the Mars G S today.

the lead screw is 8 tpi.
Found the serial numbers tailstock was sitting on it 355 matching t/s no too.
Hunting through the skungy l blue hammer tone [owner refurbished] paint on the tail stock found paint like an indian red to maroon colour down to bare metal is only primer so red the orig colour was.
Measured the spindle and found about .001 in the middle of shaft on gear end [l h end] and 0.0015 -0.002 on the large shaft [chuck end].Slight galling on both more so chuck end and white metal in cones has fared better with the boundary lubrication.has had grease nipples added so be back to drip oilers or oil cups prob the latter as i never forget my pre flight checks.
looks like 7/8 hollow spindle or abt 22mm end has been burred and needs to be re shaped.
As I did say earlier the use for this was to be a travelling companion in the old coach and the more i do look and clean it up its not a bad thing. I love old machines and think this 1 worthy of the effort.has been sneered at by a few i suppose because of it's 6x4 trailer blue hue and looks folorn.
1 thing didnt mention is the cover where the sliding 20 tooth gear goes is missing and the gear is loose out in the bits box that came with it. not sure on the connect up assuming [that word] the 120 tooth gear is for fine feed off the quadrant. the other assumption is that the 20 tooth slips in and out to engage. what's got me stumped is the long key way in the power feed shaft.
All help received gratefully. Cheers John.

Evening gents, Eweee's answered the query about the long keyway - yes, it is for the power feed, and it is engaged by sliding a knurled sleeve at the left hand end. I checked the diam of my spindle is the same as yours. Spindle bearing adjustment is done by screwed adjustment rings outboard of the headstock with a 'C' spanner (on the left and right hand of the headstock). I note Eweee's comment about brass bearing shell. I'd thought mine were bronze lined with Babbitt metal. You mention oil cups - I had a set of originals which were small metal screwed items and I originally wicked them with pipecleaners but replaced them with visiguage style. There are a couple of other threads on this site which feature Great Scot http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/mars-atlas-lathe-restoration-141925/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/mars-atlas-lathe-restoration-141925/)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/mars-bar-no-mars-lathe-124508/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/mars-bar-no-mars-lathe-124508/)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/adjusting-replacing-babbit-bearings-mars-great-scot-lathe-brisbane-134688/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/adjusting-replacing-babbit-bearings-mars-great-scot-lathe-brisbane-134688/) This last one has pics of my oilers and supplier. Look forward to hearing more of your progress. cheers, Mark

[Ueee]

Here is the pic of my leadscrew.....well i should say screws:((
The worst is all the endfloat is dealt with at the RH end and the join is about a 1/4 of the way from the right, so the rest of the screw is just floating....

Make sure when you adjust the bearings to shim the slit and tighten, this may be common knowledge but it wasn't to me and doing this made a big difference.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/thrust-plain-bearing-lathes-169007/

[markpest]

Here is the pic of my leadscrew.....well i should say screws:((
The worst is all the endfloat is dealt with at the RH end and the join is about a 1/4 of the way from the right, so the rest of the screw is just floating....

Make sure when you adjust the bearings to shim the slit and tighten, this may be common knowledge but it wasn't to me and doing this made a big difference.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/thrust-plain-bearing-lathes-169007/ Thanks - I've never seen that before - trying to work out what is holding it together - was it pinned with an internal shaft? You're right your thread form is also totally diff - Acme, rather an mine - pic. What's the solution? Hope this doesn't mean it's screwed:no: 270986270987 By the way, thanks for the tip regarding shimming the slit - didn't know.

[bollie7]

Here is the pic of my leadscrew.....well i should say screws:((
/ (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/thrust-plain-bearing-lathes-169007/)
Ueee. How long is your leadscrew? I have an imperial screw and half nuts from a short bed Nuttall. Its used but in ok condition. If it could be modified for your lathe you are welcome to have it if you organise and pay for the freight.
Overall length is about 1100mm and I think from memory its about 1" dia. I haven't been able to measure it closer than that atm as its all wrapped up in bubble wrap. Some time ago I offered it to a bloke who had bought a metric Nuttal off ebay but it all must have become too much for him to organise the freight and its been sitting here for a couple of years now all wrapped up.
If yours is around that length I'm happy to unwrap this and take some more accurate measurements.


For those with out a qcgb something like this might be worth considering. Theres a lot of this sort of thing out there apparently. It might be cheaper than making/sourcing gears etc
Electronic Lead Screw Main Page (http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/)

regards
bollie7

[markpest]

Ueee. How long is your leadscrew? I have an imperial screw and half nuts from a short bed Nuttall. Its used but in ok condition. If it could be modified for your lathe you are welcome to have it if you organise and pay for the freight.
Overall length is about 1100mm and I think from memory its about 1" dia. I haven't been able to measure it closer than that atm as its all wrapped up in bubble wrap. Some time ago I offered it to a bloke who had bought a metric Nuttal off ebay but it all must have become too much for him to organise the freight and its been sitting here for a couple of years now all wrapped up.
If yours is around that length I'm happy to unwrap this and take some more accurate measurements.


For those with out a qcgb something like this might be worth considering. Theres a lot of this sort of thing out there apparently. It might be cheaper than making/sourcing gears etc
Electronic Lead Screw Main Page (http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/)

regards
bollie7
Evening Bollie, not sure if Eweee's pm'd you re the Nuttal ls. I measured mine - it looks to be 1400mm x 22.2m. I'm interested in your electronic ls - has anyone on the forum trialled this? Mark

[Ueee]

Thats a fantastic offer Bollie:2tsup:
As Mark said though its a bit short and i have cut all my gears to suit my metric screw. Its really not a big problem, unless i want to thread right down the RH end of the bed, i jest need to pin it together somehow so the endplay is sorted.

As far as the ELS, i like the idea hence my looking into an EFS (electronic feed shaft) but i somehow feel better when cutting threads knowing that the screw and spindle are mechanically linked.....silly isn't it?

Cheers,
Ew

[bollie7]

Thats a fantastic offer Bollie:2tsup:
As Mark said though its a bit short and i have cut all my gears to suit my metric screw. Its really not a big problem, unless i want to thread right down the RH end of the bed, i jest need to pin it together somehow so the endplay is sorted.

As far as the ELS, i like the idea hence my looking into an EFS (electronic feed shaft) but i somehow feel better when cutting threads knowing that the screw and spindle are mechanically linked.....silly isn't it?

Cheers,
Ew

No problem mate. re pinning yours. I reckon the right grade of Loktite, applied correctly would probably solve your problem.

regrds
bollie7