Yeah.....lets do it!!

[gus3049]

After reading a thread on the WOW site in the states about us 'artistes', I thought I might as well see what the Antipodean take on it might be:U

Should an artist compromise his 'art' in order to pay the bills, or should he be prepared to do whatever it takes to eat??? The guy that raised the point said that he would rather go out and do other menial tasks to make enough money but his turning had to stay pure to his vision and he would never just turn something out for the money!!!!

What do you reckon??

[dr4g0nfly]

Should an artist compromise his 'art' in order to pay the bills, or should he be prepared to do whatever it takes to eat???

This is it as far as I understand it;

an Amateur Artist is one who works (otherwise) to support his art, but...

a Professional Artist is one who's wife works to support his art!

... me, I work (otherwise)!

[hughie]

Aha! so its begun.... bring it on! :U


Well for me what ever a 'artiste' want to do is fine by me, maybe not in my backyard tho'
:)

It seems many profess to follow or like or be part of the 'community' etc Thinks the artist owes them something or they own a slice of the artist and that he or she must behave in a certain manner according to them.

Well to this I say B****s****, get a life :D

[Pat]

I turn for fun. I work to support both my family and my turning.

I have been call an artist/artiste etc, but I still reckon I'm a mug playing in the shed.

If you want to see a real artist, look up Ken Wraight's work.

[gus3049]

If you want to see a real artist, look up Ken Wraight's work.

I've seen his work without knowing who he as - a real inspiration.

[gus3049]

Well to this I say B****s****, get a life :D

There is a lot of it about:fart2:

[orraloon]

When the word art comes along then people tend to let logic wait outside.
If you want to sell turned things then make what the market wants. Perhaps that is more craftsman than artist but who cares. I am beginning to see where the image of the starving artist comes from. Jees what is stopping a person doing some for the market and the odd bit of art just the way they think it should be. I am sure there is room for all.
Regards
John

[tea lady]

I like turning runs of things for money. Its relaxing. You don't have to think beyond the first one cos you worked out how to do it already. You then just concentrate of efficiency of movement. Like dancing. Getting the chisel to sing. When its going right it feels great. You prolly only get to be in the "zone" a few times, when it all goes right. And its also where you get to improve your skills. You can't tell me that just turning ART is going to make you a good enough turner to turn the art pieces easily. So you can just go directly to what you want instead of angsting about it all the way.

Another thing turning a lot of things for money gives you is you get better at visualizing what things will look like from a drawing to the three dimensional object. A drawing of the profile is all very well, but an object rarely gets seen in that exact view. What it looks like from "normal" view is often quite different. Drawing things so they will look right in 3D is a skill in itself.

Making something for someone else for money has always taught me something. Very often its not what I would think of myself. Its enjoyable solving the problem of how to make it. And satisfying having a job well done when they go away happy.

Anyway, I don't think turning stuff for money has taken anything away from my ability to make art. More like helped hone the skills I need to make art that is (hopefully) the best it can be.

[RETIRED]

I like turning runs of things for money. Its relaxing. You don't have to think beyond the first one cos you worked out how to do it already. You then just concentrate of efficiency of movement. Like dancing. Getting the chisel to sing. When its going right it feels great. You prolly only get to be in the "zone" a few times, when it all goes right. And its also where you get to improve your skills. You can't tell me that just turning ART is going to make you a good enough turner to turn the art pieces easily. So you can just go directly to what you want instead of angsting about it all the way.

Another thing turning a lot of things for money gives you is you get better at visualizing what things will look like from a drawing to the three dimensional object. A drawing of the profile is all very well, but an object rarely gets seen in that exact view. What it looks like from "normal" view is often quite different. Drawing things so they will look right in 3D is a skill in itself.

Making something for someone else for money has always taught me something. Very often its not what I would think of myself. Its enjoyable solving the problem of how to make it. And satisfying having a job well done when they go away happy.

Anyway, I don't think turning stuff for money has taken anything away from my ability to make art. More like helped hone the skills I need to make art that is (hopefully) the best it can be.Well. I'll be................ You do listen.:D

[Mobyturns]

Anyway, I don't think turning stuff for money has taken anything away from my ability to make art. More like helped hone the skills I need to make art that is (hopefully) the best it can be.
TL is pretty spot on, refining skills in production mode is a great benefit.

We will always face the craft / art debate, as it has been debated for eons. Few turners actually produce wood turned art pieces in my opinion either visual or decorative art. Art is in the eye of the beholder & hence defines who is an artist, to a particular individual or a collective. There are many very gifted turners producing very high class work some of which is visual art conveying very powerful messages. Does a piece need to convey a message to be considered “art”? If it doesn’t is it then decorative art? At the present time many successful recognized wood artists are resorting to what ever will pay the bills. Just look at who is writing the articles for the magazines at the moment and the scale of the pieces available. There will always be idealists & diehards who refuse to compromise, or realists & pragmatists who realise every bit helps.

[jimbur]

If he's only following his vision to create 'art' he must be leaving a hell of a lot of firewood along the way.
Cheers,
Jim

[powderpost]

I like turning runs of things for money. Its relaxing. You don't have to think beyond the first one cos you worked out how to do it already. You then just concentrate of efficiency of movement. Like dancing. Getting the chisel to sing. When its going right it feels great. You prolly only get to be in the "zone" a few times, when it all goes right. And its also where you get to improve your skills. You can't tell me that just turning ART is going to make you a good enough turner to turn the art pieces easily. So you can just go directly to what you want instead of angsting about it all the way.

Another thing turning a lot of things for money gives you is you get better at visualizing what things will look like from a drawing to the three dimensional object. A drawing of the profile is all very well, but an object rarely gets seen in that exact view. What it looks like from "normal" view is often quite different. Drawing things so they will look right in 3D is a skill in itself.

Making something for someone else for money has always taught me something. Very often its not what I would think of myself. Its enjoyable solving the problem of how to make it. And satisfying having a job well done when they go away happy.

Anyway, I don't think turning stuff for money has taken anything away from my ability to make art. More like helped hone the skills I need to make art that is (hopefully) the best it can be.

Spot on T.L. I turn to suit me, if it wins, sells or sits on a shelf, I am happy. There is also an element of egotism that a few people need to come to grips with.

Jim

[Tony Morton]

I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it.

Cheers Tony

[jimbur]

Definitely a bs artist or how else would he have got the job.
Cheers,
Jim

[Sturdee]

Should an artist compromise his 'art' in order to pay the bills, or should he be prepared to do whatever it takes to eat??? The guy that raised the point said that he would rather go out and do other menial tasks to make enough money but his turning had to stay pure to his vision and he would never just turn something out for the money!!!!

What do you reckon??

Arguably the greatest painting in the world "The Nachtwacht" by Rembrandt was painted by him, as was most of his works, as a commission in order to pay hiss bills.

So this guy is elevating him above Rembrand and other great artists of that era and as such IMHO is an upstart crackpot who ought to be put back in his box. A padded one at that.


Peter.

[jimbur]

Arguably the greatest painting in the world "The Nachtwacht" by Rembrandt was painted by him, as was most of his works, as a commission in order to pay hiss bills.

So this guy is elevating him above Rembrand and other great artists of that era and as such IMHO is an upstart crackpot who ought to be put back in his box. A padded one at that.
Peter.
He'd feel at home in the Vic parliament then Peter.:D

Cheers,
Jim

[ian thorn]

I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it.

Cheers Tony

And Tony a lot of stuff they put in the gallerys that is called art looks like it was done at play school :roll: .some of the wood art painted by the Scobies is far better

Ian

[powderpost]

I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it.

Cheers Tony

It is rrrrs holes like that that give galleries a bad name.... :(
Jim

[Jonzjob]

I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it.

Cheers Tony

When I posted the WIP of my tractor/trailer on a U.K. forum someone on there said that they had watched a pro turner where he had said that if you start off with firewood then you finish up with firewood, only fit for the fire. I assume that he would not go cold in winter with most of the stuff I turn. Most of it had come off the firewood pile :D

Some more firewood here

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/Jonzjob/Moonball3.jpg

[TTIT]

I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it.

Cheers TonyThis does seem to be the general attitude though doesn't it! You can make the exact same form, let's say a classic roman pitcher, in glass, metal or ceramics and it will be considered 'art', but made from wood it's just 'craft'. Maybe it's the biodegradeability of our material that gives it a 'temporary' connotation. Does anyone else think it odd that the other materials all start out as dirt :shrug:

[Mobyturns]

Does anyone else think it odd that the other materials all start out as dirt :shrug:

So does timber, just mother nature has a hand in it first. :wink:

[A Duke]

From dust to dust.

Lest we forget our selves.

Regards

[jimbur]

It's obvious really. An old pram from the tip festooned with plastic cups and bottles is art. Why can't you bloke see it?:D
Cheers,
Jim

[Mulgabill]

The attached link to the Victoria & Albert Museum gives some insight into what various Arts & Crafts "luminaries" consider as Craft/Art. What is craft? - Victoria and Albert Museum (http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/w/what-is-craft/)

[hughie]

[The attached link to the Victoria & Albert Museum gives some insight into what various Arts & Crafts "luminaries" consider as Craft/Art. What is craft? - Victoria and Albert Museum (http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/w/what-is-craft/)


Phew! I glad we have that sorted out.......

[tea lady]

This does seem to be the general attitude though doesn't it! You can make the exact same form, let's say a classic roman pitcher, in glass, metal or ceramics and it will be considered 'art', but made from wood it's just 'craft'. Maybe it's the biodegradeability of our material that gives it a 'temporary' connotation. Does anyone else think it odd that the other materials all start out as dirt :shrug:I dunno about that. There is the same debate in ceramics. there anything functional has a hard time being seen as art. :S On that proviso, a wooden teapot is about as useful as a chocolate teapot, so really should be art too. :think:

I think the gallery director mentioned earlier just wanted a way to say he didn't want to take your stuff.

[jimbur]

I dunno about that. There is the same debate in ceramics. there anything functional has a hard time being seen as art.
That cuts out many paintings and tapestries - after all they were just there as draught excluders or to cover holes in the wall. Religious paintings in churches were there to reinforce belief as was most of the statuary. This whole art versus use thing is quite modern. Rembrandt's Nightwatch was just an ego boost for the blokes in it.
Still, it keeps a lot of blokes off the street running galleries no-one goes to except when it's raining.:D
Cheers,
jim

[Sturdee]

The American Customs & Excise definition of 'a work of art' is that the owner must be able to prove it is completely useless.

So according to that an artist must be someone who makes or creates completely useless things.

I think I know lot of people that fit that description.:U :U :U


Peter.

[angryranga]

I'm with powderpost and tea lady, I turn mainly for the pure enjoyment of it. If somebody wants something made then yes they will get charged for it. But not very often.

[Christos]

One of the most fundamental requirements of humans is to eat. If you are not able to harvest or produce food then you have to do something that will allow you to gain food.

In regards to your question about an artist not wanting to compromise his art in order to eat then it is their choice. If they do something else other then turnings, also fine. That person is supporting themselves by other means.

We all have ideas or inclination on what we would like to create and these are not always clear on the path needed to complete and when a client wants something created it can be a little bit more muddy.



I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it.

To me that does not make any sense.

[Christos]

...... U.K. forum someone on there said that they had watched a pro turner where he had said that if you start off with firewood then you finish up with firewood, only fit for the fire......

Ahhh firewood that's a nice classification of a tree that had been cut down by someone that does not do any wood working.

[Big A]

Good Morning,

This is my first post on this site, but I can't stay out of this. (I have been lurking for a long time and a member for less. I will introduce myself one day!)

I tend to think that I do not have any art genes in my DNA, being of a more practical nature. To me art is what one likes, and the rest is s##te!

I have turned some things and they are pleasing to some peoples eyes, so I must be doing some things right.

I am also interested in blacksmithing and have done a little of it. Just recently, a friend was buried, with a split cross that I made on the lid of the coffin. Just a little thing, but I was happy that the husband and family liked it enough that they used it.

So where does blacksmithing sit in this discussion? Is it a trade, a craft or an art? I would say all three, just the same as woodwork and turning.

Trade = functional.
Craft = functional and beautiful.
Art = beautiful and useless.

"I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it."

Is one allowed to say wanker in this forum?

So there:U!

"A". (Alister.)

[A Duke]

I was told during my apprenticeship that an Artisan was one who made an art of his trade.
Which is interesting as not many see much art in an electrical installation.
Regards

[hughie]

Trade = functional.
Craft = functional and beautiful.
Art = beautiful and useless.

"I was told by a "ART" gallery director in this area that anything made or created with timber was craft and craft only however anything else made from anything else unless mass produced was art. Any material however poorly or coloured with paint or other medium was "ART" and that was it."

Is one allowed to say wanker in this forum?

\ :U

Well said and welcome aboard. :2tsup:

[jimbur]

\ :U

Well said and welcome aboard. :2tsup:
:2tsup:
:2tsup:

[NeilS]

I turn to suit me, if it wins, sells or sits on a shelf, I am happy.



Me, too, but there is only a limited amount of shelf space to fill (at home, in family & fiend's houses, and in galleries) before supply and demand eventually come into play.

On the topic, as originally proposed....



Should an artist compromise his 'art' in order to pay the bills, or should he be prepared to do whatever it takes to eat???

The reality is that every artist I have ever known (quite a few) has to do some type of work other than their own art to pay the bills, at least for part of their careers.

e.g. 35 years ago I shared an office at the art school with William Robinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Robinson_%28painter%29) where we both taught. Bill was raising a family of 6 and he had no option other than to do something like teaching to pay the bills. But, after teaching all day Bill would go home and paint every night, which he did for over 30 years. Then having won the Archibald Prize (for the first time), plus had a few successful exhibitions behind him (and decreasing family responsibilities) he decided to chance it and leave paid employment to concentrate full time on his art.

Nowadays "William Robinson is considered one of Australia’s foremost living artists". The recent average prices (http://www.artrecord.com/index.cfm/artist/12573-robinson-william-francis-bill/) for his paintings have been around the $150k mark, with some of his major works selling for $0.5m+.

The point being, if Bill couldn't raise a family on just his art, I doubt that any of us artistic woodturners are going to do so. We either do production work or teach, run workshops, do demos, write articles, sell gear or work at something else and wait until we retire and then do whatever we wish.

~~~~~~~~

What is an artist vs artisan vs craftsperson vs tradeperson is a whole topic in itself which I don't have the energy for just now so will let that one fly through to the keeper(s)...:U

[gus3049]

Yup, I reckon the guy was a wanker too.

Its a modern thing definitely. Its all about being precious and self serving. All the great painters compromised by making their patrons look a little better than reality, all the great composers were doing it for money, Bach was churning out stuff for next Sunday's service. OK it helped that he was a genius and I'm not sure how many of today's artists come under that catagory, but he was doing it to eat.

I have just spent two days remaking a piece because the wife loved it but the husband didn't. So we sat down and redesigned it between us so they did like it. This is a compromise that is just common sense., I could have got on my high horse like a chef complaining about seeing someone add salt to a meal (another good subject???) but these are good customers and I've kept them.

In the end, I liked the result enough to do another for me, so when its done I'll post it on this forum as an example to us all:doh:

[Jonzjob]

Why didn't you post a pikky of the first one? You will have to excuse him folks, he gets a bit forgetful at times. It's his age you know :D:D

I have been called an artist loads of times, but it's normally had something to do with the pint in my hand and the way it goes down my neck?

There is a guy on another forum one of the signatures sounds quite good. Not sure if this is exact, but it goes along the lines of

'A workman uses his hands, a craftsman uses his hands and his heart and an artist uses his hands, his heart and his soul'.

If that's isn't correct then perhaps you can improve on it Gordon?

[gus3049]

Why didn't you post a pikky of the first one? You will have to excuse him folks, he gets a bit forgetful at times. It's his age you know :D:D

I have been called an artist loads of times, but it's normally had something to do with the pint in my hand and the way it goes down my neck?

There is a guy on another forum one of the signatures sounds quite good. Not sure if this is exact, but it goes along the lines of

'A workman uses his hands, a craftsman uses his hands and his heart and an artist uses his hands, his heart and his soul'.

If that's isn't correct then perhaps you can improve on it Gordon?

Ah well, as it 'appens, I do have a pic, so when I've made my copy of the latest version, I'll post all three and you can have a good laugh on me.

The correct quote is, of course by Francis of Assisi.........He who works with his hands is a labourer, he who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist.

Don't know where you lot get your edification:q

[Jonzjob]

If my Frances hears you calling her a sissy you really will be in trouble, but ta for the correct version. See, yer not totally useless, plus yer bio-degradable :o:o

[robo hippy]

From Anthony Yak (Yakonick but most can't say that properly), one of the moderators on WoodNet forums, "If it don't hold soup, then it is art."

robo hippy

[Paul39]

From Anthony Yak (Yakonick but most can't say that properly), one of the moderators on WoodNet forums, "If it don't hold soup, then it is art."

robo hippy

I like that. A turner, I've forgotten who, once wrote "the less useful something is the more I can get for it".

I am in the wonderful situation of being retired with a very modest income. I make bowls, weed pots, and mushrooms; never the same thing twice from wood salvaged from along the road or given to me by people who have removed trees. I heat with wood and as I am working up firewood I cut out and save interesting bits for the lathe.

I sell through a crafts shop and 90% of everything I take there sells.

The most I ever received for a bowl is one with a hole in the bottom, good for fruit but not soup.

I make things that please me and almost all of it sells, I don't care what my turnings or I am called.

There are some artistes locally who sell in heavy duty ART galleries in NY and Los Angeles in the range of $9,000 - $18,000 a piece. One had a similar piece in an AAW traveling show that came through town. If I were given the piece I would cut it up to make something to turn, or burn it.

For what it is worth the most famous of the artistes runs a restaurant.

The bowl with the hole.

[Jonzjob]

Not Damien Hurst by any chance?

I love his idea that you can go to yer butchers, get some cows heads and call it art, or this one

Damien Hirst's latest unveiled at Royal Academy of Arts: Maggots and flies at barbecue | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348845/Damien-Hirsts-latest-unveiled-Royal-Academy-Arts-Maggots-flies-barbecue.html)

Now that's really art in the making:o:o